: Jaguar chickens out- pulls out of race against CTS-V at Monticello



Cadillac Tony
10-27-09, 06:54 PM
It's true- Jaguar pulled out of the "CTS-V Challenge" at Monticello. Read all about it (including their lame excuse) here (http://jalopnik.com/5391222/jaguar-pusses-out-of-jalopnik-vs-gm-race).

So originally Mercedes was going to provide a smaller, lighter C63 AMG, but changed their mind. Then BMW wouldn't provide an M5 after the spanking it got in all the magazine tests, and now the only one who (supposedly) had the stones to do it has changed their mind and said that the brakes on the Jag can't hang with the V's.

Kind of a shame for the spectators (like me) who wanted to see Bob tear up the competition in a CTS-V, but totally awesome that no one is willing to put their best High-Performance sedan up against the V.

VetteOwner
10-27-09, 07:07 PM
The wimps backing out speaks volumes of the V's performance..can't wait to get mine.

Caddyscat
10-27-09, 07:20 PM
....and yet, on most, if not all Euro forums, they continue to bash our V with "oh come on, 2 seconds is hardly 'spanked'", or "old mans car". or the best yet, "it's not engineered as well as an M".

Best bang for the buck. Period.
I love mine.

Z06ified
10-27-09, 09:14 PM
LMAO - what does that say about Jaguar's endurance testing for their "performance" vehicles? That's pathetic that they feel the brakes won't hold up for just 5 laps. Monticello's CTS-V's run that track all day long and they don't have any brake issues or any durability problems whatsoever.

Actually, I didn't expect Jaguar to build a fragile performance car. Nissan and BMW, yes. Jaguar no. Which makes it extra disappointing.

GM tests the hell out of their vehicles, especially their performance models before they release them to production. I've seen videos of what their test drivers do to prototypes and read books on their testing procedures, and it's pretty remarkable what they put development cars through. They literally drive them until they break, find out what broke and why, revise the part for better durability, go back, and try to break it again. That's what it takes to make a durable track car. I can tell you right now they would never release the CTS-V to production if they knew the brakes were marginal after 5 laps at Monticello.

I guess Jaguar felt that only poseurs would buy their car, and would never actually drive it hard.

Oh well, backing out is the same as losing. NEXT!

aceofblitz
10-27-09, 10:02 PM
Bob Lutz:
I think it means that the European high-performance sedans are excellent, even superb cars, but quite possibly not ready for racing laps right out of the show-room. The CTS-V is not only quicker, but will, in totally untweaked, stock form, run hot laps at any race track until it runs out of fuel. Transmission oil and diff oil temps are stable, engine oil temp doesn't go up, brakes get a bit more pedal travel, but don't fade. The street tires get a tad greasy, but handling and control remain excellent. "May the best car win"! (It wins automatically if the competitors won't show up!)

He's right you know :P

jvp
10-27-09, 11:10 PM
He's right you know

No, he's not. Unfortunately.

Unless I just drove mine harder than he'd drive his... which I doubt. When you guys do this, crawl under Bob's car and see if he has a differential cooler attached... :-)

jas

neuronbob
10-27-09, 11:24 PM
Losers. Jag walked away with their tail between their legs, and BMW took their ball and ran home because they were treated badly by the press in the comparos. HAH! Sore losers.

aceofblitz
10-28-09, 01:03 AM
jvp, i have a differential cooler attached. my friends have them too, one ordered a set of W4M exhausts and it doesn't fit because the diff cooler got in the way, but yeah my point is... its stock here =P

evois
10-28-09, 04:23 PM
having owned an 06 evolution IX MR, I am also waiting for the verdict on this one.


http://jalopnik.com/5391942/cadillac-cts+v-vs-mitsubishi-lancer-evolution-mr-by-the-numbers

Z06ified
10-28-09, 04:37 PM
having owned an 06 evolution IX MR, I am also waiting for the verdict on this one.


http://jalopnik.com/5391942/cadillac-cts+v-vs-mitsubishi-lancer-evolution-mr-by-the-numbers

I have no idea why they are even allowing an Evo. They originally said a 4 door sedan of the same competitive space. The competitive space is LUXURY sedan. The Evo has absolutely nothing to do with luxury, and I don't think anyone would cross-shop the two. In other words, they're not competitors at all.

An Evo will take a CTS-V in the corners thanks to its AWD system and lighter weight, but the CTS-V will crush it on the back straight of Monticello, and almost any straight for that matter. I don't think an Evo can touch 140 MPH on the back straight, while the V can easily hit over 150 MPH.

Also, how are they going to prove the Evo is stock? Short of putting it on an AWD dyno on site, there is no way to tell if the owner hasn't cranked the boost up.

I find it funny how all the tools on jaloplink are already saying how the Evo is going to kick the V's butt, and how it costs $20k less than the V. :rolleyes:
Even if it did, the CTS-V is a full blown luxury car, while the Evo will always be just a souped up econobox.

Like I said, there really is no comparison.

evois
10-28-09, 05:02 PM
while the Evo will always be just a souped up econobox.
Like I said, there really is no comparison.


that is true there is no comparison because the V is suppose to compete for the likes of the M5, RS', etc. But to prove a point, it is called an "evo" because of its rally roots and just so happen to drive fast in the streets as well. it has a rally heritage from the evo I to the current evo X. if it was a souped up econobox it would have been called a cobalt SS, ZR-1, or a CTS-V.:yup:

The Tony Show
10-28-09, 05:08 PM
There's still tons of potential for GM to get more good press out of this. If he beats the Evo, then it's "Look at us- our big, heavy luxury car outperformed a street legal rally machine on the racetrack". If they lose by a hair, it's "Look at us- our big, heavy luxury car is within x seconds of a street legal rally machine on the racetrack".

Either way, the only people aware of this whole thing are Internet enthusiasts, and they've already been handed the best publicity Cadillac could possibly ask for- the other guys being afraid to go up against the V. Everything from this point on is just icing on the cake.

Z06ified
10-28-09, 05:21 PM
that is true there is no comparison because the V is suppose to compete for the likes of the M5, RS', etc. But to prove a point, it is called an "evo" because of its rally roots and just so happen to drive fast in the streets as well. it has a rally heritage from the evo I to the current evo X. if it was a souped up econobox it would have been called a cobalt SS, ZR-1, or a CTS-V.:yup:

WHAT? You make no sense. :cookoo:

Look, it's called a LANCER Evolution. A Lancer is an econobox, in case you didn't know. Evolution is a model subtype of the Lancer. It's called "Evo" because it sounds cool to the Fast and Furious crowd.

neuronbob
10-28-09, 06:44 PM
Who cares about the Evo? I think The Tony Show hits the target with his remark above.

GM is, and should be, milking this for as much as it's worth. This is among the best marketing ploys I've seen from GM in quite some time. They are acting like a company that wants to survive and pay Us, The People our money back for bailing them out.

evois
10-28-09, 09:25 PM
WHAT? You make no sense. :cookoo:

Look, it's called a LANCER Evolution. A Lancer is an econobox, in case you didn't know. Evolution is a model subtype of the Lancer. It's called "Evo" because it sounds cool to the Fast and Furious crowd.

do your research first before making a comment. in case you did not know, this is the X(or 10th) iteration of the evolution line-up starting from evo I(or 1). model subtype of lancer, c'mon get out of the box:thepan: btw, I like my escalade hybrid after retiring from my evo 9.

Z06ified
10-29-09, 10:36 AM
do your research first before making a comment. in case you did not know, this is the X(or 10th) iteration of the evolution line-up starting from evo I(or 1). model subtype of lancer, c'mon get out of the box:thepan: btw, I like my escalade hybrid after retiring from my evo 9.

Typical "Evo" owner. In denial that his car is a Lancer.

Let me ask you something: Will the doors from a base model Lancer hook right up to a Lancer Evo? I'll answer it for you: they sure do, because they're the same doors! Which means the cars are from the same platform. The roof, the suspension mounting points, the A,B, and C pillars, the interior, all the same.

I know the Evo has extra welds and bracing and blah blah blah, but the fact remains the Lancer Evo starts with the base Lancer platform, with go-fast goodies added.

Look, I respect the Evo's performance and what it is, but let's call a spade a spade. It is NOT a luxury car, and it DOES come from econobox roots (siblings even).

evois
10-29-09, 11:27 AM
Typical "Evo" owner. In denial that his car is a Lancer.

Let me ask you something: Will the doors from a base model Lancer hook right up to a Lancer Evo? ....

just the front doors not the rear ones, if you are talking about the evo IX. the rest are totally different because everything is aluminum for the evo IX again. now, did they retool the V that the CTS doesn't share a part?

back on topic, the CTS-V is an impressive vehicle. expecting the evo to win-now that is denial:bonkers:

The Tony Show
10-29-09, 11:32 AM
The race goes down today- it looks like they added a 1st gear chicane on the back stretch to even things out between the Lancer and CTS- boo!

And on the subject of the whole Lancer/Evo argument- it's a Lancer, and Evolution is the name of the high performance package, just like the CTS-V is a CTS, and the V means it's a high performance CTS. It does not magically cease to be a CTS and become something called "a V", and the Evo is still a trim level of the Lancer.

evois
10-29-09, 11:37 AM
the only thing that will even it out is an autoX course.

Z06ified
10-29-09, 11:46 AM
just the front doors not the rear ones, if you are talking about the evo IX. the rest are totally different because everything is aluminum for the evo IX again.

Everything is aluminimum? So you're trying to tell me the entire body of the Evo, except for the front doors are aluminum? The roof, the frame, the whole thing? And you say you owned one? Yeah, sure you did. Maybe you should have tried a magnet on the car before believing whoever told you the car was mostly aluminum. I think you would have been disappointed. :thepan:


now, did they retool the V that the CTS doesn't share a part?

The base CTS is a premium luxury sports sedan. The base CTS chassis is well known to be an excellent platform. It is NOT an economy car platform, and does not share anything with an economy car platform. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Let me spell it out for you: starting with a an excellent, and expensive base car chassis and adding performance parts = great performance car.

starting with an econobox base car platform, and adding performance parts = compromise performance car.

sizquik
10-29-09, 11:57 AM
I have no idea why they are even allowing an Evo. They originally said a 4 door sedan of the same competitive space. The competitive space is LUXURY sedan. The Evo has absolutely nothing to do with luxury, and I don't think anyone would cross-shop the two. In other words, they're not competitors at all.

An Evo will take a CTS-V in the corners thanks to its AWD system and lighter weight, but the CTS-V will crush it on the back straight of Monticello, and almost any straight for that matter. I don't think an Evo can touch 140 MPH on the back straight, while the V can easily hit over 150 MPH.

Also, how are they going to prove the Evo is stock? Short of putting it on an AWD dyno on site, there is no way to tell if the owner hasn't cranked the boost up.

I find it funny how all the tools on jaloplink are already saying how the Evo is going to kick the V's butt, and how it costs $20k less than the V. :rolleyes:
Even if it did, the CTS-V is a full blown luxury car, while the Evo will always be just a souped up econobox.

Like I said, there really is no comparison.
I can tell that you have never driven an Evo X on a track. They are going to chicane the long straightaway apparently, this will get very interesting.

Z06ified
10-29-09, 12:10 PM
I can tell that you have never driven an Evo X on a track. They are going to chicane the long straightaway apparently, this will get very interesting.

No, I haven't. But I have been on a track with several Evos and STis, and I outran them all. They are real quick in the tight, slow turns, and require much less skill to drive quickly in such turns, but they've got nothing on the top end, and anything above 90 MPH they just get crushed. :thepan:

Even if the Evo beats the CTS-V today (which I doubt), do you think I'm going to cancel my '10 CTS-V order and go out an buy an Evo instead? Do you think ANYONE considering a CTS-V would? Not in a million years.

sizquik
10-29-09, 12:20 PM
No, I haven't. But I have been on a track with several Evos and STis, and I outran them all. They are real quick in the tight, slow turns, and require much less skill to drive quickly in such turns, but they've got nothing on the top end, and anything above 90 MPH they just get crushed. :thepan:

Even if the Evo beats the CTS-V today (which I doubt), do you think I'm going to cancel my '10 CTS-V order and go out an buy an Evo instead? Do you think ANYONE considering a CTS-V would? Not in a million years.

Not to be a wise guy but I am considering both along with a few others. Lots of great choices out there for enthusiasts these days. I think we all agree that the V is an incredible machine. BTW, the track appears to be wet today.. ruh oh...

http://jalopnik.com/5392686/jalopnik-vs-gm-we-have-seen-the-enemy-and-he-is-bob

evois
10-29-09, 01:49 PM
Everything is aluminimum? So you're trying to tell me the entire body of the Evo, except for the front doors are aluminum? The roof, the frame, the whole thing? And you say you owned one? Yeah, sure you did. .

most, not really everything. the roof, the fenders, the hood and the suspension parts which are aluminum. the front door comment is because the evo uses a different rear door than the regular cedia body. and owned one, yes. maybe you can show your Z06? or is it a CTS. AFAIK, you don't need to order the V because there are several in the dealership I bought my escalade hybrid.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forums-lounge-member-introductions/180162-how-i-end-up-2009-escalade.html

CIWS
10-29-09, 01:56 PM
Everything is aluminimum? So you're trying to tell me the entire body of the Evo, except for the front doors are aluminum? The roof, the frame, the whole thing? And you say you owned one? Yeah, sure you did.

It's usually a pretty good indicator that when someone puts a car type in their name they either own one or have owned one and were very proud of it. Kinda like yours ?

CoOlSlY
10-29-09, 02:27 PM
Not to be a wise guy but I am considering both along with a few others. Lots of great choices out there for enthusiasts these days. I think we all agree that the V is an incredible machine. BTW, the track appears to be wet today.. ruh oh...

http://jalopnik.com/5392686/jalopnik-vs-gm-we-have-seen-the-enemy-and-he-is-bob


Not to be a wise guy but I am considering both along with a few others. Lots of great choices out there for enthusiasts these days. I think we all agree that the V is an incredible machine. BTW, the track appears to be wet today.. ruh oh...

http://jalopnik.com/5392686/jalopnik-vs-gm-we-have-seen-the-enemy-and-he-is-bob

I have a 09 COBB stage 2 STi wich I will be replacing with a 2010 V (on order)... Different machines... "No" torque under 3000rpm (36-3700rpm if you have no mods) even with a chip/full exhaust/intake... When you are used to 8 cylinders, you may not like that kind of car... That's why i'm changing and also, last year when I bought the STi, I knew it was temporary... Had a Mustang SVT (V8), Z06 (V8), S4 (V8), Jeep SRT-8 (V8) and believe me, when you go on a turbo 4 cylinders engine, be prepared to "wait" when you punch it, even when you're in gear, there's a delay, you may like, you may not like. Don't get me wrong, for 40k CDN$ compared to the 75k for the V, the STi is a wonderful car, AWD and at the drag strip i've done a best of 12.89 wich is close to the CTS-V, 13.3xx stock but doesn't compare in term of ride quality and low end torque... If you are looking for a track oriented car, I would go with the Evo (wich I drove for a few hundred miles) or the STi for sure even if I haven't drove the CTS-V on a track. Mainly because of the extra weight (of the CTS-V), I would *think* the Evo and STi have a better "fun factor" and that you feel a lot more the "road". I call my STi "my road go-kart" and that's what it is...

Z06ified
10-29-09, 03:44 PM
Not to be a wise guy but I am considering both along with a few others. Lots of great choices out there for enthusiasts these days. I think we all agree that the V is an incredible machine. BTW, the track appears to be wet today.. ruh oh...


As I predicted, the Evo lost to the CTS-V:

http://jalopnik.com/5392841/jalopnik-vs-gm-bob-beats-blog?skyline=true&s=i

:cool:

Cadillac Tony
10-29-09, 03:46 PM
Not to break up this discussion about the Lancer, but it looks like 77 year old Lutz easily bested Wes Siler from Jalopnik. The top 4 times were all CTS-Vs, with John Heinricy, Brian Redman, Aaron Link and Lawrence Ulrich all posted faster times than 5th place Michael C. driving a lighter, smaller M3.

It also looks like our very own forum member cjwolverine posted a best lap of 3:14:292, which was ahead of two people in an RS4 and Jag XF- with no track experience! Way to go, Chris! :thumbsup:

Top times are listed here (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/29/cadillac-cts-v-challenge-follow-along-on-twitter/).

Z06ified
10-29-09, 03:53 PM
maybe you can show your Z06? or is it a CTS.

http://208.76.80.19/~asfeuucq/host/willow-sig.jpg

That's me driving my '02 Z06 at Willow Springs big track. I still have it, and I plan to keep it after I get my '10 CTS-V.


AFAIK, you don't need to order the V because there are several in the dealership I bought my escalade hybrid.

I'm ordering my V because I want it exactly the way I want it. I have patience, and I tend to keep my cars for a long time (5-10 years), so I don't want to compromise with color and options. I can wait 6-8 weeks to get a car I'll still be happy with 8 years from now. I haven't seen an '10 V in stock with the exact color and option combination I want (manual, Thunder Grey, ultraview, Recaros, wood trim, ebony interior, and polished wheels).

sizquik
10-29-09, 04:01 PM
As I predicted, the Evo lost to the CTS-V:

http://jalopnik.com/5392841/jalopnik-vs-gm-bob-beats-blog?skyline=true&s=i

:cool:

Needed more rain! thanks for the update. The Evo didn't beat Lutz but you can see that the evo did run some faster times over one of the CTSV pilots.

CTS-V (John Heinricy): 2:46:560
CTS-V (Brian Redman): 2:49:183
CTS-V (Aaron Link): 2:48:902
CTS-V (Lawrence Ulrich): 2:53:026
BMW M3 (Michael Cooper): 2.50:424
CTS-V (Jack Baruth): 2:51:153
CTS-V (Bob Lutz): 2:56:321
Evo (Wes Siler): 3:08.126
BMW M5 (Michael Mainwald): 3:08:989
CTS-V (Chris Fairman.): 3:14:292
Audi RS4 (Tom Loder): 3:15:702
Jaguar XF (Archan Basu): 3:16.670

SlvrBullIT
10-29-09, 04:13 PM
Now the apologists are out... it was ONLY 3 secs behind.... blah blah blah..... excuse excuse excuse..... but we didn't have pro drivers, if Michael Schumacher were driving in his VW beetle it would beat a CTS-V.... The constant whining gives me a head ache... CTS-V won people, even with your blasted econo box lancer...EVO AWD with a chicane and wet track....

The Tony Show
10-29-09, 04:19 PM
Needed more rain! thanks for the update. The Evo didn't beat Lutz but you can see that the evo did run some faster times over one of the CTSV pilots.

CTS-V (John Heinricy): 2:46:560
CTS-V (Brian Redman): 2:49:183
CTS-V (Aaron Link): 2:48:902
CTS-V (Lawrence Ulrich): 2:53:026
BMW M3 (Michael Cooper): 2.50:424
CTS-V (Jack Baruth): 2:51:153
CTS-V (Bob Lutz): 2:56:321
Evo (Wes Siler): 3:08.126
BMW M5 (Michael Mainwald): 3:08:989
CTS-V (Chris Fairman.): 3:14:292
Audi RS4 (Tom Loder): 3:15:702
Jaguar XF (Archan Basu): 3:16.670

Wes Siler (the guy driving the Evo) has tons of track experience, and even got a complimentary 3 day Skip Barber School to train him for this. The guy in the CTS-V that was slower than him was a forum member here who has never set foot on a racetrack, and had no prep except some advice from people on here and a crash course from Heinricy once he got to Monticello.

The fact that a total track noob in a V can be within 8 seconds of an experienced racer driving an AWD car on a rainy day is awesome.

Z06ified
10-29-09, 04:29 PM
The fact that a total track noob in a V can be within 8 seconds of an experienced racer driving an AWD car on a rainy day is awesome.

Agreed. But it wasn't rainy here - actually turned into a nice day. The track was only wet in the morning from the rain yesterday.

CTSV4now
10-29-09, 04:31 PM
The new (ugly) Porsche would give the CTS-V a real challenge, maybe even beat it.

The Tony Show
10-29-09, 04:33 PM
For over double the price? It had better. :lol:

evois
10-29-09, 04:40 PM
:getaway: goes back to escalade section of the forum:D

neuronbob
10-29-09, 04:59 PM
cjwolverine, not bad for a n00b. :thumbsup:

Working, so I couldn't follow the live web stuff. Argh! Back to work....

Tourian
10-29-09, 05:14 PM
The fact that a total track noob in a V can be within 8 seconds of an experienced racer driving an AWD car on a rainy day is awesome.

I guess that's one way of looking at it, but another way would be to acknowledge that the weather cleared up and the track was mostly dry and that only one manufacturer had the balls to send their 291hp car without a pro driver to face a 556hp monster on its home turf when the car's real competitors (Audi, BMW, MB and Jag) all bitched out.

UnsafeAtAnySpd
10-29-09, 05:18 PM
For over double the price? It had better. :lol:

How much does a V cost compared to an Evo? :D

The Tony Show
10-29-09, 05:24 PM
Not $70,000 more, that's for sure.

The Panamera and the CTS are also both considered luxury vehicles, whereas the Lancer Evo is an economy car with a hell of a drivetrain and suspension. :)

todd03blown
10-29-09, 05:35 PM
great job Caddy!! hell of a car for sure!!

todd03blown
10-29-09, 05:36 PM
How much does a V cost compared to an Evo? :D

20-25k

aceofblitz
10-29-09, 05:38 PM
So proud of the CTS-V representation. as for the Panamera and all the AMGs, tough luck you got your chance and the doors were opened for you and you were too scared to back your own horses.
There are no IFs, IF the panamera turbo attended, IF the E63, C63 joined, screw that. You had your chance and you didn't take it. I'm so glad I own a V

CIWS
10-29-09, 06:39 PM
Hopefully Lutz/GM will do this again next year. BMUU might put the new M5 up.

SlvrBullIT
10-29-09, 07:38 PM
The new (ugly) Porsche would give the CTS-V a real challenge, maybe even beat it.

And another apologist whiner...... fact is it didn't show up, so not much of a challenge...is it....

Caddyscat
10-29-09, 08:08 PM
The porsche probably would have slammed the V into the wall knowing it was going to be raped in the last straightaway like a certain race I recently watched.

Nutz
10-29-09, 08:31 PM
It also looks like our very own forum member cjwolverine posted a best lap of 3:14:292, which was ahead of two people in an RS4 and Jag XF- with no track experience! Way to go, Chris! :thumbsup:

Chris has got to be on an all day buzz from this event. Heck I was, and I wasn't even there.

3:14:292 Wow, nice driving Chris!!!

SlvrBullIT
10-29-09, 08:34 PM
The porsche probably would have slammed the V into the wall knowing it was going to be raped in the last straightaway like a certain race I recently watched.

:shhh:

JEM
10-30-09, 12:25 AM
No surprise the CTS-V was the quickest, much as I like the V I think the guy in the M3 can claim a moral victory, the present Evo is just too big and fat.

abbas
10-30-09, 12:42 AM
I think this was a humbling experience for Bob as he said that HE would beat anyone in a CTS-V.

I am happy that CTS-V manual had the best time.

nradcad
10-30-09, 01:53 AM
The porsche probably would have slammed the V into the wall knowing it was going to be raped in the last straightaway like a certain race I recently watched.

now that was funny:stirpot:

CIWS
10-30-09, 08:54 AM
Great Pic :D


http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/10/Lutz_Versus_Siler.jpg

CTSV4now
10-30-09, 01:34 PM
And another apologist whiner...... fact is it didn't show up, so not much of a challenge...is it....


Not whining at all. It is an empty victory.

GM will need to offer AWD and a better transmission if it expects to remain King of the Hill.

cjwolverine
10-30-09, 04:00 PM
please see my post on the V challenge wrap up.

Nutz is right, I'm flying high right now. It was a wonderful event.

Chris

JEM
10-30-09, 10:00 PM
Not whining at all. It is an empty victory.

GM will need to offer AWD and a better transmission if it expects to remain King of the Hill.

AWD adds a bunch of weight, rotating mass in the drivetrain, packaging complexities; it's great in certain conditions and a wash at best in the dry.

There's little advantage to something like a dual-clutch manumatic over a torque-converter automatic behind an engine with the LSA's torque curve; one can quibble over the shift calibrations GM chose (I think a lot of US-market cars get part-throttle-downshift-resistant transmission tuning for CAFE reasons) but the hardware is good. More ratios? Maybe, maybe not; Merc gets good utility out of their 7-speed slushbox but the gear spacing in Toyota's 8-speed automatic is kinda nonsensical.

The game is building the car that works the best, not the car with the most parts. Audi does a wonderful job of building cars with lots of parts. Doesn't make 'em work any better over the road, usually worse, unless the road's mucky.

If I were going to change one thing about the present CTS-V (which in this case would imply changing the whole CTS design) I'd bring the beltline down an inch and a half and add some glass area. Oh, and I'd build a wagon with Merc-grade cargo capacity.

SlvrBullIT
10-31-09, 01:17 AM
Not whining at all. It is an empty victory.

GM will need to offer AWD and a better transmission if it expects to remain King of the Hill.


Empty?!?!?! So one football team fails to show up for a game, the other teams wins by forfeit and it's called a "empty victory"..... hmmm :nono:
In this case, all the opposing manufactures failed to show up.... that's a "resounding" victory my apologist friend.

I wonder, why do all the top performing sport and super cars have RWD.... it's because they are stupid right? I grant you some amazing production cars are AWD, GT-R, R8, even the Gallardo but none of them beat production RWD super cars. I'll recant when AWD gets more efficient at putting power down than RWD.

gnarf
11-03-09, 07:31 PM
the GT-R can actually deliver 100% of its power to the rear wheels..only when there is limited traction is when power is delivered to the front...the lp560 and GT-R are faster than most rwd sports cars..M6, F430, Z06, GT3..still kudos to Lutz for being this capable for his age...I always knew the CTS-V was king...but I would love to see a comparison with the turbo version of the ugly porsche panamera

Z06ified
11-04-09, 12:09 PM
the GT-R can actually deliver 100% of its power to the rear wheels..only when there is limited traction is when power is delivered to the front...the lp560 and GT-R are faster than most rwd sports cars..M6, F430, Z06, GT3..

The GT-R is only faster than a Z06 in 0-60, and in *some* 1/4 mile tests. A Z06 smokes a GT-R in 0-150 mph, and anything north of those speed. The reason is the GT-R has a tremendous traction advantage off the line, but it has less horsepower, it's much heavier, and it has a worse power-to-weight ratio.

The GT-R can do some amazing launches and things with its AWD system, but it's not magical, and it's a mistake to assume it's faster than a Z06 just because it has a quicker 0-60 time.

MReiland
11-04-09, 03:24 PM
I don't have the chart in front of me but when a friend of mine an I looked at the ratios on the GT-R transmission they told a bunch of the story, I think the shift out of first was at ~35 where the Z06 was up to 60. Having AWD and some really low ratios (or is it high ratios?) lets the GTR get moving quick with the power it has, but on the top end it starts to suffer, the Vette comes online in the triple digits and usually start pulling on a GTR up there pretty good.

Fubar75207
11-04-09, 04:00 PM
This thread is interesting. On one hand we have the argument that the V is all the bang for 1/2 the buck (as compared to a M5, E63 or Panamerica) and that is a good thing. On the other we are snubbing our nosing at the Evo because it is economy power. The Evo certainly hits a different price mark but it hangs with cars x2 and x3 its price. Which is it, bang for the buck or refinement and quality?

Personally the number one selling point for me was that the V is American made. I personally feel as though I should have supported Detroit earlier but late is better than never. The fact that the product is terrific just makes it an added bonus, sometimes you just gota root for the home team.

This test of the V's prowess was cool but on a really tight technical course the M3 or even the Evo would have been better suited.

I still love my V. It is a fantastic car.

The Tony Show
11-04-09, 04:08 PM
I don't think it's strictly the dollar amount people are citing- it's the car's overall character and roots.

Both the CTS-V and the M5 are built on existing luxury car platforms, and regardless of the the few nits to pick with the CTS's interior, it can legitimately be called a "luxury car" and compared to the 5 series. The Evo however, is based on bottom rung economy car that uses materials and construction comparable to a Kia Spectra, Nissan Versa or Chevy Cobalt- none of which are luxury vehicles, therefore the Evo is not what you would call "a competitor" to the CTS-V.

Basing comparos strictly on performance, price and number of doors, one could say that a Miata is a better car than a Bentley Continental GT simply because the Miata goes around a track in a similar time, has the same number of doors and costs about $175,000 less. That would be ridiculous because of the difference in size, features and class though. On a smaller scale, the comparison of a Lancer Evo to a CTS-V is just as ridiculous.

Steiner
01-19-10, 01:40 AM
...Not to be a wise guy but I am considering both along with a few others. Lots of great choices out there for enthusiasts these days. I think we all agree that the V is an incredible machine...
Add one more. That Evo MR Touring trim is interesting. I need to drive one.

BTW...listening to V owners bash the Evo reminds me of the M5 boards except...well...you know. :rolleyes:

CIWS
01-19-10, 09:45 AM
Welcome to two months ago.