: Time to rant, screw big oil and/or their retailers



onebadcad
10-23-09, 02:24 PM
Okay, this is a performance-related thread, as the non-performance wussies run a lesser octane fuel and most do not buy fuel as they only stare at their cars, driving them would lead to wear and tear, which allows for more discretional income to put 20s, faux hood vents, neon kits and TVs in the trunk---so again, Tony, my Paesano, do not move, or I will have no choice but to buy my V2 from Scott, and that would pain me as much as it would you, accettare?

Back on topic, just paid $3.00/gal for Mobil 93 octane, FAWK 'EM BASTAGES. Crude is trading at $80-81/barrel, why so high, as IIRC, at $149/barrel I paid $4.50/gal for premium. BTW, no new fuel taxes levied in past few years, so the Gov is not adding to this. This shiat is robbery, someone needs to have their nutz cutoff, tired of getting screwed but not kissed, you may see me on the 6 o'clock news,,,

And if you are in the industry, please politely refrain from commenting, as I do not want to be subject to some contrived reason that only has merit if Big Oil is paying your bills in life.

BTW, six pimply kids standing around their mother's Hondas in a parking lot is not a car meet, it is a convention of buttwipes too young to get into a bar, and too ugly to find babes.

The Tony Show
10-23-09, 02:27 PM
lawlz

AAIIIC
10-23-09, 02:33 PM
:rolleyes:

Welcome to capitalism, my friend.

your maker
10-23-09, 02:40 PM
angry Friday !!!

onebadcad
10-23-09, 02:50 PM
:rolleyes:

Welcome to capitalism, my friend.

It ain't capitalizm when collusion exists, its criminal. Also, many will argue free market/consumer rights are non-existent in a market where they are few entrants/suppliers. I cannot think of many industries that have less power players than Big Oil, most off-brands buy their products from the big providers as they do not have resources to set up their own distribution channels. Sadly, and even though I hate Big Gov, someone needs to look at gasoline consumer pricing strategies and justifications. Utilities are held to more rules regarding increases, and we all spend more on gasoline than electricity each month.

onebadcad
10-23-09, 02:51 PM
angry Friday !!!

Yep, dead on, but hanging out on the forum sure beats working,,,

Twitch
10-23-09, 03:32 PM
BTW, six pimply kids standing around their mother's Hondas in a parking lot is not a car meet, it is a convention of buttwipes too young to get into a bar, and too ugly to find babes.
:histeric::histeric::histeric: Where the hell did this come from???



Oh, and, didn't you get the Tonys mixed up?

onebadcad
10-23-09, 04:04 PM
Damnnnnnn, moved, locked, merged, etc... again. I must be setting some kind of record.

onebadcad
10-23-09, 04:05 PM
:histeric::histeric::histeric: Where the hell did this come from???





Saw it on an auto sig on another forum, so I decided to test the Internet Copyright Laws.

onebadcad
10-23-09, 04:19 PM
This thread needs help:

http://www.citybrat.com/images/FloridaFlat.jpg

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
10-23-09, 04:22 PM
It just cost me $67 to fill the Brougham. It got 13.7 mpg this tank, a little better than normal.

I don't mean to be a jagoff here but if you can afford a high performance V, a C6 Vette and you are planning on purchasing a V2, I think you can afford a little increase in gas prices. Quit your bitching and just be happy its not $4+ a gallon like it was a few years ago. We all knew that this recession wouldn't last forever and eventually it would go back up.

RightTurn
10-23-09, 04:26 PM
:food-snacking:

dkozloski
10-23-09, 04:28 PM
Regular here is $3.28/gal and I live 14 miles from the refinery. You have no squawk coming.

Stingroo
10-23-09, 05:15 PM
I'd kind of agree with dirt cheap here.

But I also agree that the government does need to step in and do something and cap oil prices in some way. They can do it to every other utility. Is gas not a utility? You might not get unlimited monthly use, but it sure as hell is one in my book.

gary88
10-23-09, 05:32 PM
We have it easy compared to Europe.

Jesda
10-23-09, 05:40 PM
I'd kind of agree with dirt cheap here.

But I also agree that the government does need to step in and do something and cap oil prices in some way. They can do it to every other utility. Is gas not a utility? You might not get unlimited monthly use, but it sure as hell is one in my book.

Government's agenda is to raise the cost of fuel, not lower it, as evidenced by European taxes, to force us into rolling trashbins and public buses.

Stingroo
10-23-09, 05:57 PM
True, unfortunately.

Victory is yours, Jesda.

Submariner409
10-23-09, 05:59 PM
Has it occurred to anyone that oil prices are carefully watched and compared to inventories and demand by a particularly scummy sort of Wall Street speculator, the Futures dealer ?? That's the cause of your oil pricing, not Big Oil. Yes, Big Oil receives the benefit of T. Boone Pickens' and George Soros' hedge betting, but the futures guys are the problem, and were the major players last year, too. We're headed there again, and OBamBam will try to bail it all out again so he still looks good.

bolide
10-23-09, 06:25 PM
LOL...Sunoco 94...$1.13 a liter, 4 liters to a gallon and the Canadian dollar close to par...you do the math!!1

bolide
10-23-09, 06:27 PM
Ooops...3.78 liters to a gallon....still???!!!

Eric Kahn
10-23-09, 07:27 PM
Reg unleaded and diesel, $2.69 down the street from me on the way home from work

orconn
10-23-09, 07:50 PM
Sub is right about the commodities futures speculators affecting the price we pay for oil and gas. If this were not the case we would be paying a lot less at the present time due to the steep drop in worldwide demand expeienced over the last year and a half. But price controls are not the answer. Our young friends who did not experience the "Stag Flation" of the nineteen seventies brought on by the price control attempts of the Nixon and Carter administrations. Price control or price capping does not work it just defers cost rises until they cannot be held at bay any longer. In a capitalist economy profits from higher demand and prices are the incentive for higher levels of exploration and more efficient production techniques and management controls. On an inflation adjusted basis we have encountered some of the lowest gas and oil prices that have occurred during the history of the petroleum industry. In the last ten years it has not been increased gas prices that have been the culprit but but declining middle class buying power that has been the culprit. But the average American was able to over consume due to cheap and irresponsble credit ...... that is until the shit hit the fan!

ga_etc
10-23-09, 07:59 PM
I just gave $2.75 a gallon for Shell 93 octane a few mins ago. Last week 93 was $2.55ish. Last week it was $47 to fill up, tonight $55. I dare say the fact that it is the end of the year and the holidays are coming up and everyone will be traveling has a factor in this too.

Shonkenstein
10-23-09, 10:09 PM
Just wait till the Chinese get tired of buying our debt and you start wiping you’re a$$ with twenties cause they’re worth less than the cost of three and a half squares of Charmin….

GailyBedight
10-23-09, 10:29 PM
If you think its bad now just wait, with our mounting debt the dollar is going to continue to fall against other currencies. As the dollar is worth less the price of crude is going to rise. Need to get Pelosi and the CA politicians to allow offshore drilling and put some people to work and increase our domestic supplies.

Duke7010
10-23-09, 10:35 PM
Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
10-24-09, 03:53 AM
It's currently running $7.00 USD per US gallon here.

And there are people running around in 6L AMG Mercedes, Range rovers and all sorts. Bottom line, if you can afford to buy a new or newish car with a large engine you can clearly afford to put fuel in it.


The days of cheap fuel are over. It will get a *lot* worse than this over the next 5 years and as time rolls on worse and worse...

Stingroo
10-24-09, 08:39 AM
It's currently running $7.00 USD per US gallon here.

And there are people running around in 6L AMG Mercedes, Range rovers and all sorts. Bottom line, if you can afford to buy a new or newish car with a large engine you can clearly afford to put fuel in it.


The days of cheap fuel are over. It will get a *lot* worse than this over the next 5 years and as time rolls on worse and worse...

Well, I don't know about the situation in the UK, so I won't comment, but over here, it WOULD be a lot better if we drilled for our own oil. I don't see why we're letting the reserves off the coast of FL just sit and do nothing, when it could be beneficial to our economy. Plus, if we really wanted to "stop supporting terrorists", wouldn't this be the "right" thing to do there as well? I don't understand our government sometimes, there are contradictions at every turn, inconsistencies in every situation.

It sickens me, honestly.

stuckey
10-24-09, 08:59 AM
Alaska can fuel the US for the next 700 years and probably longer with the push for eco friendly tin cans with wheels on them, but drilling around polar bears is a big no no and tree huggers every where would go APE SH!T. I'm 27 years old and can remember being 16 so eleven years ago and paying 0.89 a gallon for regular in my T/A. I could see today with the cost of living increases and all that jazz gas maybe being at the 1.60 a gallon or even the 2.00 mark but what has gone on for the past few years and appears to be coming back now is ridiculous.

Stingroo
10-24-09, 09:04 AM
Alaska can fuel the US for the next 700 years and probably longer with the push for eco friendly tin cans with wheels on them, but drilling around polar bears is a big no no and tree huggers every where would go APE SH!T. I'm 27 years old and can remember being 16 so eleven years ago and paying 0.89 a gallon for regular in my T/A. I could see today with the cost of living increases and all that jazz gas maybe being at the 1.60 a gallon or even the 2.00 mark but what has gone on for the past few years and appears to be coming back now is ridiculous.

The cheapest I remember gas was the summer of 2001. It was $1.05 a gallon, and every "Super Tuesday" the Mobil station by my house knocked 6 cents off, making it .99

I had a paper route that year for our small town weekly paper, and I remember advertising that for the price of 1 gallon of gas, you could get three WEEKS of news. (It actually worked, when I got the paper route, it had 21 customers on it, and when I left because I moved, it had 57, and covered so much area that the kid who took it over couldn't handle it, and it got split into two routes.)

Good times...

ewill3rd
10-24-09, 09:09 AM
Seems like the messiah was supposed to fix this mess and he's been working hard to... oh wait he hasn't done anything but make it all worse.
Couldn't even get the olympics to come to his "home town".
My hero.

I believe if you listen to his cheerleading squad they want to raise the price of Gas by an additional dollar or two to raise revenues for their welfare programs and also to force people to take mass transit. After you sell your car and they tax us all into oblivion I am sure they will decide what kind of gas miser you can buy, or one will be provided for you.

I might be dating myself here but I remember when we couldn't fit $10 worth of gas in our car and $5 usually meant we were going on a long drive!

CIWS
10-24-09, 09:23 AM
It's not up to our leadership to fix this mess, it's up to us. The leadership is corrupt and owned by big business (all not just oil).

onebadcad - Are you pissed enough yet to decide to start looking for alternatives to fossil fuel ? I'm not talking buying a tree hugging Prius, I'm talking getting our country and industry seriously looking at viable alternatives so that we can stop being owned by other countries who have the oil we cannot do without right now.
Every time I bring this subject up no one wants to do what's needed. It's just too easy to keep the blinders on and continue down the same road as it only gets worse. I'm sick and tired of seeing my country with a knife to its throat when we posses the ability to get beyond it.

Stingroo
10-24-09, 09:37 AM
If I may ask, what would you suggest CIWS? No flame intent here, I'm just curious.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
10-24-09, 03:03 PM
RE The Alaskan Nature Reserve, there are estimated to be between 5 and 16 billion gallons there (that's oil and gas equivalent combined). These estimates are based on the surrounding area and the assumption that the same is available within the Alaskan Reserve. The USA consumes over 20 million barrels per day. So if we decide to be optimistic and go with the 16 billion barrel figure that means the Alaskan Reserve contains enough crude to keep the USA going for 800 days (less than 2 years and 3 months). So what will you do after that?

Digging oil out of the ground is not sustainable. I don't mean that in a tree hugging way, I'm being practical. There is a finite amount of it in the ground. It does not fill up again while you're not looking. One day it *will* run out. Sheer common sense tells us that. Any when that happens the consequences are a lot more serious than no fuel to put in your car. Where will you get food? there won't be any in the supermarket. The entire worlds economy and out way of life (down to our food) depends on oil.

We *have* to find another solution.

The problem at the moment is that the various forms of renewable energy (be it tidal, wind, solar, whatever) are so expensive that no-one wants to pay for them. There are dangers associated with nuclear energy (and the long term storage of the spent fuel) so it's not easy.

And given the choice, I'd rather drive a slow electric vehicle of some sort than have no transportation whatsoever. While I love my V8, what I really love is the ability to get around, to go where I want to go, to travel.

Even if you ignore climate change stuff or decide you don't agree with it or whatever, the bottom line is that the oil will run out one day. And it won't be in 500 years. How soon I don't know, I suspect governments have a pretty good idea, but if we make it another 100 years with our current consumption I would be very surprised.

dkozloski
10-24-09, 04:33 PM
$0.14/gal(fourteen cents/gal) for regular. Spring of 1958 in Seattle, Washington.

orconn
10-24-09, 04:45 PM
Most of the world that are aware of the ongoing outcry of the American over the ever increasing cost of petroleum products think American are a bunch of cry babies. "Where do the Americans get off believing they are the only ones who should benefit from inexpensive (middle class) personal transportation?" might well be their position. "Well we were here first" doesn't really cut it with the aspiring middle classes of the second and third world.

Truth be told as a percentage of an average family's income, the cost of oil and gas is lower than many tmes in the past. Is is the problem of the oil and gas industry that the American family now feels that many costly (internet, cable TV, a variety of expensive appliances, not to mention "designer" labeled clothing) are necessities today, whereas in the not too distant past these were rightly considered luxuries. Europeans having come more lately to enjoy the mobility of personal transportation (and also having good public transportation alternatives) seem to have a more realistic out look on solutions to our future energy needs ........ and are not impressed with "I don't give a damn about you, I'm entitled to big car, big house and big opinion of myself" often heard from some U.S. citizens.

orconn
10-24-09, 04:49 PM
$0.14/gal(fourteen cents/gal) for regular. Spring of 1958 in Seattle, Washington.

I remember $.27 a gallon in Moorestown, N.J. in 1960 and $.11 a gallon at the PX gas station in Chitose, Hokkaido, Japan in 1970 (it was $2.85 a gallon at local economy (Japan) gas stations at the same time). And the average American family of four had an income of $4700.00 per year ( new well equipped Chevy Impala was around $3400.00 and a Cadillac De Ville about $6000.00, the average house in the U.S. was about 1400 square feet and cost around $14,000. It helps to put things in perspective! No family outlay for internet, movie rentals, long distance telephone calls and airplane travel were really luxuries of the well to do as were designer labels and eating out for dinner.

onebadcad
10-25-09, 12:37 PM
Thanks to all who responded, good reads for the most part.
My original point, if you read it again, was not an attempt to say gas at the pump is high, it was to bring light to the fact that Big Oil and it distributors seem to be gouging us at the pump, as it is not consistent, due to they charge what they think they can get away with, regardless of the current price of crude---disproportionate margins was my angst. I am a firm supporter of capital markets, but not blatant collusion. Regarding the poasts of those with the means should not voice opinions is socialism, just because you have something does not mean anyone should take it unfairly, in this case a monopolistic industry, and in most examples, a selfish and ineffective government. I am not a scholar in the Oil Markets, thus do not fully understand the impact of a few greedy Wall Street manipulators, but am still not in belief that they alone dictate the price at the pump. Alternative fuels are great, for a nation with our consumption this should have been pursued decades ago, it is very late in the game, only one viable solution to fix our dependency and that is to drill and then drill some more. We will see brutal prices in the near future as inflation comes, and the value of the dollar will fall, and U.S. securities will not be coveted until the yields offered are three times higher than today, which is catastophic, as the first line item in any budget is debt service, which has been grossly calculated by the current Administration, deliberately, as they will all be long gone before we start paying the real price for the current economic woes.
Back on topic, pricing on gasoline is unregulated, you pay what you are told, and regardless of how much money you have, it is very wrong, unless of course you are a fan of Robin Hood and his merry crooks,,,

I'm out, enjoy your Sunday, go 'Fins!!!!, and of course #24!!!

onebadcad
10-25-09, 12:43 PM
,,, and to the champions of Mass Transit, works great when you have the infrastructure in place, when you do not you are asked to operate in a system with gross deficiencies for which there is no remedy, other than money, which cannot be had. NYC has a great model, but at what cost, and how long before it hit efficiencies that were satisfactory. I know of no Mass Transit Systems that generates a profit, enlighten me, and given the fact some believe the arguement is savings vs. the environment, this is not an acceptable alternative.

Chose not to pursue the environment arguements, as that topic deserves its own forum.

onebadcad
10-25-09, 12:44 PM
Seems like the messiah was supposed to fix this mess and he's been working hard to... oh wait he hasn't done anything but make it all worse.
Couldn't even get the olympics to come to his "home town".
My hero.

I believe if you listen to his cheerleading squad they want to raise the price of Gas by an additional dollar or two to raise revenues for their welfare programs and also to force people to take mass transit. After you sell your car and they tax us all into oblivion I am sure they will decide what kind of gas miser you can buy, or one will be provided for you.

I might be dating myself here but I remember when we couldn't fit $10 worth of gas in our car and $5 usually meant we were going on a long drive!


Home Run, actually Grand Slam!!!

onebadcad
10-25-09, 12:53 PM
We have it easy compared to Europe.

I am not picking on you, many make this arguement. We, as Americans, should not compare ourself to others, if we do, we lower our standards and beliefs to what their systems have eroded into (Look at the tax rates for Britain, France and Germany)---a kin to your children telling you that seven 'C's on a report card is good as they know one kid in the class that received all 'D's. You have to ask yourself a question:

1) Do I work for the betterment of government?

OR

2) Does government work for the betterment of 'all' in society?

Ultimately, you should work for yourself and your family, there should be rewards for sacrifice and hard work, you should not contribute 60% of your earnings into Government's coffers.

Submariner409
10-25-09, 01:26 PM
It's all relative..........I can remember riding around with my maternal grandmother and great grandmother, just after WW-II, in a 1938 Dodge 6 and Bud (grandmother) pulling into a filling station for "a dollar's worth" which was gas for the week. The grease monkey checked the oil, washed the windshield, and checked the tires. Said "Thank you, Ma'am." In the 1960's - Navy Exchange gas station in New London, Ct., gas was .21 a gallon for 96 octane - you could get Sunoco at 110 (?) from the "mix it yourself" pump. We paid .14 a gallon for (rationed) Navy gas in Naples, Italy in '68. In '75, Texaco was .37 a gallon in SC, Charleston. I could actually afford to run a 17' boat with a 115 hp Johnson V-4 outboard. Right now marine 89 octane is $3 at a local marina and Shell 87 is $2.55 on the highway (and the price goes up every day with rising oil prices).

Go to some info website and pull the annual inflation figures for the last 50 years. Begin at 1960 with .21 a gallon and inflate that by each year's rate. You won't believe it.

Go to http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/marketsdata.html for hourly tracking of markets and commodity prices. Hover over the "crude oil" line and open the graph, click to expand the coverage. You'll puke.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
10-25-09, 02:15 PM
Hmm...

I find it interesting that while many people in the US scream in fear of socialism when governments involve themselves in any industry, many of the same people want the government to interfere with gas pricing which surely goes against the ways of capitalism? At the end of the day there are several gas companies from various countries all offering fuel for sale and the market (ie the demand) is setting the price. When demand drops the cost of fuel drops. As developing economies mature they have the same thirst for fuel that we do. There is not enough to go around, hence the price goes up. You should be happy the US government are not involved in your pricing. The reason that fuel costs up to 3 times as much in Europe is due to taxation designed to reduce our dependence (and waste). But in both Europe and the USA you are free to buy whichever car you choose and buy as much fuel as you like and go wherever you want. If you decide to drive a lot and drive a car with lousy gas mileage you have no right to demand change. I choose to drive a V8 Caddy in spite of paying $7 per gallon. I don't like it but I choose to so it. If I don't like the gas bills the solution is to either keep my car and make fewer pointless trips or keep making those trips and drive a more fuel efficient car. I can't have my cake and eat it.

While I love the US and travel there as often as I can as for lowering yourself to European standards, pull your head out of your arse. Have you ever lived in Europe???
The standard of living and lifespan of the US does not compare as favourably as you think to that of many European countries. Every country and system in the world has its pro's and con's, the US is no different (and neither is Europe).

I have no intention of turning this into a slanging match about the US vs the world no matter how much you might like that so that's the last I'm going to say on that topic.


As for pump prices vs the cost of a barrel of oil, they do rise roughly with each other, there are a few minor variables which mean it's not an exact match but it's near enough.

You had record prices when it was $100 per barrel, and as economies around the world recover and the growth in the Far East continues, the cost of a barrel will remain north of $100 with subsequent knock on effects at the pump.

The days of cheap gas are over. Forever.

Drilling in the US is not going to solve the problem. It will reduce your dependence on foreign oil for a while but only for a few short years. Then what?

You (well, all of us actually) need to reduce dependence on oil. Period. Not just foreign oil.

With no public transport to speak of and with a large population living in the suburbs many many miles from their place of work, what are you going to do when the oil gets to be 3 or 4 times the price it is today? Especially when you've already used what oil is under the ground on US soil?

Forward planning is needed, not just in the USA but all over the world, however the US needs to act more urgently than most due to your geography and lack of infrastructure...

I don't mean to be alarmist, but there needs to be some serious positive change over the next 100 years, otherwise all I can say is: I'm glad I won't be alive to see the consequences if we don't...

gary88
10-25-09, 02:33 PM
Well said
http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af175/gheb882/handclap.gif

ga_etc
10-25-09, 04:23 PM
Well said
http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af175/gheb882/handclap.gif

+1. We are spoiled and no one wants to admit it. We drive our large, powerful, comfortable Cadillacs because that's what we want, not because we need them. If we bought only the transportation that we needed we would all be driving Geo Metros. Unfortunately the actions of society as a whole could be categorized as gluttonous and everyone just kind of seems to be ok with that. Large steps need to be taken in the direction of cleaner, renewable sources of energy. It is going to take years of hard work but it is very attainable.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
10-25-09, 04:46 PM
Agreed.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, after all, I don't like paying $7 a gallon believe you me!
I only run a Caddy because I love cars and an economy car doesn't interest me. Cars are one of my hobby's / enjoyments in life, I don't hardly drink and I don't smoke, instead my money goes in the gas tank.

But if I changed my job to where I needed to drive more than say 40 miles round trip per day to work there is no way I could justify using the Caddy (or ay other high performance vehicle as even 4 cyl turbo cars can use a lot of gas). I'd have to have a 4 cyl diesel and just have my V8 for weekend fun which would be a real shame but I suspect that will be the way of the world one day (and sooner rather than later).

But even if we end up driving econo boxes that we recharge at home (or whatever) at least we can get around and that's all that really matters right?
Remember the first time you got your licence and drove your car, how free you felt? That's what it's all about when the chips are down. I'd rather drive an electric (or whatever) car than take public transport. But then I'd rather take public transport than be stuck within whatever radius I can cycle...

dkozloski
10-25-09, 05:46 PM
Around here, diesel is an additional 50cents/gal over regular gas because the local refiney cannot handle the high sulphur Alaska crude and produce diesel from it. Low sulphur crude for diesel production is imported from Indonesia and hauled all the way to the refinery.

orconn
10-25-09, 06:12 PM
I wouldn't think diesels would work for short haul errands and such in Alaska anyway due to the intense cold of the long winter months. With -35F and wind chill I don't think and even with heated garages that diesels would be very convenient for short trip driving.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
10-25-09, 07:21 PM
Diesel costs a little more than petrol (gas), about $7.35 per US gallon compared to $7.00 for petrol.
But a petrol Ford Focus would get about 32-34mpg (US gallon) on the highway @ 70mph, whereas the diesel version would return about 45-47mpg (again, US gallon) so getting about 40% more per gallon it is worth it. Except diesel engines cost more to make so you're looking at maybe $2,000 more to buy the car in the first place so it takes a good while to break even...

V-Eight
10-25-09, 07:29 PM
But a diesel will also, in most cases, last longer than a gas engine

Stingroo
10-25-09, 08:45 PM
^ Why is that?

ewill3rd
10-26-09, 09:16 AM
Earlier someone mentioned "alternatives".

A. Hybrids are a joke. They turn one form of pollution into another. You still have a gasoline powered vehicle and the trade off for electric operation is painfully less than inefficient. Any amount of research would show that production costs and shipping make this a total waste of time and energy by anyone's standards.

B. Electric cars, this is the biggest myth towards "green" I have ever heard. Any good tree hugger will tell you that electricity is evil. Look at power generation in any form. Coal, natural gas, whatever, it's all the same and incredibily inefficient. Our electric infrastructure is taxed nationwide, for everyone to go out and buy any kind of plug in electric is pure insanity and would melt the lines right off the towers.

C. Solar? Please.... do I need to bother?

The solution? Utilize our fossil fuel resources and CONTINUE, that's right I said continue our alternative research and implement it as it becomes AFFORDABLE.
GM and other manufacturers are already doing massive amounts of research on alternative fuels. Our supplies are finite, yes. To abandon fossil fuels for alternatives that are many times higher in cost is just ignorant. It can be done gradually over time. Hybrids are a necessary step but not the answer. Maybe electrics can help but it's not a total solution either.
Are we going to have to get away from fossil fuels? Sure.
Do we need to do it next week? No.

A lot of good information in this thread so far.
Just tired of all this tree hugging knee jerk reactionary stupidity.

RightTurn
10-26-09, 12:25 PM
Can I get an "Amen."

onebadcad
10-26-09, 03:27 PM
I once hugged a tree, was pretty shiat-faced, hit it at like 8 mpg, hurt like hell, had to drink a little more that night to ease the pain, ain't doing it again,,,

RightTurn
10-26-09, 04:00 PM
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/breakdown_regular_gasoline-small.gif

Note "Refining Cost & Profit" = 7%.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
10-26-09, 04:48 PM
The *approx* breakdown in the UK :

Crude oil and Refining cost - 32%
Fuel station costs + profit - 4%
Govt Fuel Tax - 50%
Sales tax - 14%

Basically the entire difference in cost between the USA and the UK re fuel cost is due to government taxes.

Caddyshack100
10-26-09, 05:20 PM
The strange thing about Europe is, more and more people are driving cars, despite having probably one of the best public transit systems in place in most of the EU countries. Most European countries are small, and distances between centers are reasonable for Public Transit, they do have the Infastructure in place. Most English, Irish, etc accept living in crowded conditions that make public transit more financially viable. The Average North American will have nothing to do with that, 100 foot lawn and detached house is the holy grail. My commute is 90 miles one way. I do this in order to live in a House that is both affordable and comes with what I value, Space, but in order to get that I have to live a good distance away, if I moved closer then the cost would also go up dramatically, any savings in fuel would be more than wiped out. All this to say, Does this make me Selfish because I want to live a certain way?

orconn
10-26-09, 05:29 PM
The strange thing about Europe is, more and more people are driving cars, despite having probably one of the best public transit systems in place in most of the EU countries. Most European countries are small, and distances between centers are reasonable for Public Transit, they do have the Infastructure in place. Most English, Irish, etc accept living in crowded conditions that make public transit more financially viable. The Average North American will have nothing to do with that, 100 foot lawn and detached house is the holy grail. My commute is 90 miles one way. I do this in order to live in a House that is both affordable and comes with what I value, Space, but in order to get that I have to live a good distance away, if I moved closer then the cost would also go up dramatically, any savings in fuel would be more than wiped out. All this to say, Does this make me Selfish because I want to live a certain way?

No, but in the future you may find this lifestyle unaffordable. As taxation becomes a primary means of government enforcing its' will on the people
(state cigarette taxes being a prime current example) gas taxes and other excise taxes seem sure to impact lifestyle choices in the future. Higher cost of all forms of energy will certainly affect housing decisions and choices of transportation.

dkozloski
10-26-09, 05:34 PM
I wouldn't think diesels would work for short haul errands and such in Alaska anyway due to the intense cold of the long winter months. With -35F and wind chill I don't think and even with heated garages that diesels would be very convenient for short trip driving.
There are a lot of them. When the weather gets extreme they are left running 24/7.

gary88
10-26-09, 06:02 PM
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/breakdown_regular_gasoline-small.gif

Note "Refining Cost & Profit" = 7%.

How dare they make a profit! Those bastards :alchi:

RightTurn
10-26-09, 06:18 PM
Ya. Nobody seems to care that the govt's cut is twice as much as "big oil." :rolleyes:

CIWS
10-26-09, 06:48 PM
If I may ask, what would you suggest CIWS? No flame intent here, I'm just curious.

For someone to show the right leadership and do something similar to what Kennedy did in 61 to get a man on the moon. To set the will of the U.S. in industry and university toward the goal of developing alternative sources to power our vehicles and implement more wind power to help generate electricity. As with then set the goal to a decade ahead, and then with just as much dedication seriously work on the multiple alternatives available. The initial goals should not be to get the country off of oil, but to reduce our use of oil to the point we do not have to import it from foreign sources. Besides the fact we depend upon oil to produces a myriad of other products we use a lot of like tires and plastics.
But right now we are hardly doing squat to change our ways and only seem to care when the fuel prices get jacked up for whatever reason(s).

orconn
10-26-09, 07:18 PM
Ya. Nobody seems to care that the govt's cut is twice as much as "big oil." :rolleyes:

What are your state taxes on gas in Texas? How are the roads? Here in Virginia our gas taxes are relatively low and our roads are inadequate and in poor condition. I quess you get what you pay for!

RightTurn
10-26-09, 10:44 PM
I believe state taxes are about 20 cents/gal in TX. I certainly can't speak for all of Texas, but the roads in Harris and surrounding counties are in relatively good condition considering the volume of traffic. Seems like freeway construction is a way of life in the Houston area, as with most large metropolitan areas.

RightTurn
10-26-09, 10:48 PM
This is semi-interesting.

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/Gasoline_Map_10-2009.pdf

RightTurn
10-26-09, 10:57 PM
Oh..and in the "WTF" department, check out Oregon's plan for gasoline revenue. :eek:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/04/nation/na-gas-tax4

A state task force will look at equipping every new vehicle in Oregon with a Global Positioning System to record every mile driven and where. Motorists would pay at the gas pump based on how much they drove, no matter how fuel-frugal their vehicle.

The plan still requires legislative endorsement and the full details could take several years to work out, but state analysts said the governor's endorsement is a crucial step toward solving what has become a problem in many states: dependence on a gasoline tax.

orconn
10-26-09, 11:01 PM
From experience the roads in California and West Virginia are really quite good. The roads in Virginia, Maryland and New Jersey are not very good. I don't know what Maryland's excuse is given their gas tax, probably corruption! Virginia it seems to be no money and the inability of the legislature to make a decision when their is money available. When visiting the Old Dominion think twice about crossing any bridges!

The Tony Show
10-26-09, 11:03 PM
I've commented several times on here how the Federal Government's sudden love affair with hybrids, plug-in cars and alternative fuels is hilariously self defeating. By endorsing these kind of cars and tossing billions of dollars at the "problem", they're effectively cutting out one of their largest revenue streams- the gas tax. At some point, someone in Washington is going to do a Macauly Culkin impression, and the scrambling will begin to figure out how to replace the income.

This Orwellian nightmare is just one of the possible outcomes.

RightTurn
10-26-09, 11:11 PM
They'll just follow Oregon's lead and put a GPS in everyone's vehicle. :lol: Big Brother is watching ewe drive. :eye::eye:

orconn
10-26-09, 11:27 PM
Remember the days when diesel fuel was a lot cheaper than gasoline? If there is much of an impact on gas taxes you can be sure there will be an adjustment somwhere to make up for the shortfall. In most states they already have a record of your annual mileage per vehicle because of the annual vehicle safety and emisions test. If your locality doesn't have these annual checks be sure you will in the future. Trucks already fall into a weight mileage category for road taxes.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
10-27-09, 07:25 AM
Oh..and in the "WTF" department, check out Oregon's plan for gasoline revenue. :eek:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/04/nation/na-gas-tax4

A state task force will look at equipping every new vehicle in Oregon with a Global Positioning System to record every mile driven and where. Motorists would pay at the gas pump based on how much they drove, no matter how fuel-frugal their vehicle.

The plan still requires legislative endorsement and the full details could take several years to work out, but state analysts said the governor's endorsement is a crucial step toward solving what has become a problem in many states: dependence on a gasoline tax.

They want to do this in the UK, they call it "road pricing".
They would scrap fuel tax and base the tax on a price per mile scheme that takes into account the road you use and what time of day you use. So congested main roads during peak hours would cost more than a country road at quiet times.
But if they do that I may as well drive a big engine right?
Unless thy also factor that into the pricing...

Submariner409
10-27-09, 08:26 AM
orconn, Where Maryland ("If you can dream it, we can tax it !") roads are horrible in Montgomery, Charles, Baltimore, and Prince George's counties from the sheer overload of traffic, over here on the Shore we're fortunate to have great roads - not so much Rt. 50 (again, traffic load) but the back roads are smooth, banked properly, and a pleasure to drive. Over near the Delaware border the population is sparse and some roads allow you to see 3 miles ahead and behind in a straight line, which allows room for conservative road testing of vehicle maintenance procedures :lildevil:.

ewill3rd
10-27-09, 08:32 AM
I have heard of insurance companies encouraging GPS mileage tracking to reduce rates, a sort of "by the mile" thing.
No thanks.

Stingroo
10-27-09, 09:14 AM
No thanks indeed. I can just see it now where someone has a long commute and they couldn't even afford to get to work. That idea is fatally flawed.

CIWS
10-27-09, 09:26 AM
I have heard of insurance companies encouraging GPS mileage tracking to reduce rates, a sort of "by the mile" thing.
No thanks.


No thanks indeed. I can just see it now where someone has a long commute and they couldn't even afford to get to work. That idea is fatally flawed.

They have this here. For the driver who hardly drives it can be better than paying the normal rates they will be charged when having conventional insurance. My grandparents were lucking to put 7000 miles a year on a car.

Stingroo
10-27-09, 10:17 AM
I guess that's true. I wouldn't put very many miles on my car either, for awhile at least.

Honestly I'm looking at 5k or less. lol

RightTurn
10-27-09, 12:15 PM
I have heard of insurance companies encouraging GPS mileage tracking to reduce rates, a sort of "by the mile" thing.
No thanks.

Actually Bill, my monthly OnStar "vehicle diagnostics" email includes the info that I qualify for reduced insurance rates because of low mileage driving. It says "Your mileage indicates that you are eligible for a low mileage discount on your auto insurance," and includes a link to this... http://www.onstar.com/us_english/jsp/explore/insurance.jsp?cmp=OVD_time_ovdinsurance3&vels=137455847&block=LMD (http://www.onstar.com/us_english/jsp/explore/insurance.jsp?cmp=OVD_time_ovdinsurance3&vels=137455847&block=LMD_3&ovdVin=1GNFC13008R173020&annualmileage=3532&state=TX&emailID=sarahw422@gmail.com)

rekctsv
10-27-09, 07:36 PM
Seems like the messiah was supposed to fix this mess and he's been working hard to... oh wait he hasn't done anything but make it all worse.
Couldn't even get the olympics to come to his "home town".
My hero.

I believe if you listen to his cheerleading squad they want to raise the price of Gas by an additional dollar or two to raise revenues for their welfare programs and also to force people to take mass transit. After you sell your car and they tax us all into oblivion I am sure they will decide what kind of gas miser you can buy, or one will be provided for you.

I might be dating myself here but I remember when we couldn't fit $10 worth of gas in our car and $5 usually meant we were going on a long drive!

The Messiah, are you serious? I was wondering when the President bashing would start.
Last summer I was paying $5/gallon, $2.50 I think is a little better, I don't care who had anything to do with it.
I have not heard anything about the price of gas going up to raise revenue for welfare. Where did you get that from, Glenn Beck?
How about quoting some sources besides what somebody told you the other day.
If I had a dollar for every time someone told me what Obama was doing to ruin the country and had no source for the info they were quoting, I wouldn't have to worry about gas prices.

RightTurn
10-27-09, 08:15 PM
IBT:lock:

ewill3rd
10-27-09, 08:37 PM
I'm not going down that road with you.
My opinion is my own, you are entitled to yours.
This guy has actually caused all the stuff I am accusing him of, I don't need some newscaster to tell me, I can see it all around me every day.
Disagree if you want.
Gas prices are steadily climbing again and no one is saying a word.

The Tony Show
10-27-09, 08:42 PM
Ruh roh- political discussion. :tisk:

Supporting Members are welcome to cruise over to the Current Issues Forum (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/current-issues/) and discuss politics there.