: No Offense to the Tuners, But This is Something CTS-V Owners Should Read



cmicasa
10-08-09, 09:15 PM
"My first and only new car which I personally ordered and waited for three months to be delivered has a blown engine. I have not been to a HPDE in over a year and a half. Only used for weekends and take girl out to dinner. 30K mi.
Car stared making metallic knock and missing real bad.
Chevy dealer has motor apart and tell me a lifter came apart and pieces of metal in oil. Chevy rep. wants motor removed and torn down and cam removed for further inspection. Not good.
This outcome will be sure interesting. "

GM has voided my warranty, (just like some of you said they would).
The dealer was wrong, Just left meeting with dealer service manager and service tech. I am all alone on this repair, needs new engine.
And I am responsible for cost of the tear down work to get to this dissapointing outcome.
GM product quality control requested a shap shot of the ECC, and of course there was the evidence of altered factory set points. GM rep sent me the bulletin of May 18, 09. which states. "Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at the time of sale...."
So my friends, and tuners beware.
-Tuners should advise customers that have factory warranty that performance tuning will VOID their warranty!
-If you have performance tune, and want drive train warranty work, have you car flshed back to factory specs. before you show dealer and GM you car.http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-corvette-general-discussion/2443162-07-c6-engine-blew-gm-final-decision.html

cmicasa
10-08-09, 09:25 PM
I have a 2008 Z51 with a tune so I'm a bit worried.

But this is the exact reason why I haven't tuned my V2. I guess it's all about the dealer's discretion on whether or not they are gonna snitch on the owner to GM or not... but seeing how I am in the same boat as this guy if my Vette engine has any serious issues I STILL SEE GM'S POINT of VIEW.

Worse case scenario is that if my Vette engine blew I would be replacing it with a LS7 or LSA...

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/images/17802397_large.jpg LS7 for $13K




http://paceperformance.com/ProductImages/manufacturer/gm/images/19211708.gif

LSA for $14K

Razorecko
10-08-09, 09:31 PM
...This is why....

-If you have performance tune, and want drive train warranty work, have you car flshed back to factory specs. before you show dealer and GM you car.

meaning the owner never flashed it back to stock when taking it back to the dealer/or getting it towed. .

neuronbob
10-08-09, 11:26 PM
I'm holding my fire on a tune until the car's out of warranty. I'm simply too chicken for any other mods at this point.

chopmeat
10-08-09, 11:40 PM
Who cares?
It's pretty darn obvious that this would be the case.
It's mostly because the person drives like a complete NUTCASE and blows it up!
I give my Caddy guy 50 bucks and he'll just about BL*W me, and I can go to tuners like the Vette Doctors and get anything done.
I've done this on every single car and truck I've had and never had an issue.
Vettes, Viper engine, Z06...
If you can afford a 70 or 80 thousand dollar car, these are the consequences.

Why be a chicken, you only live once!

Short-Throw
10-08-09, 11:52 PM
The V is still quite a rarity on the street overall. As more V's hit the road you will read about more tuned cars being denied coverage as the problems caused will surface in greater numbers, like the vettes are now. As far as tuners advertising it will void warranty, ha, that would be the honorable thing to do but most in fact promote ways to deceive the tune was even there. Re-flashing isn't fool proof as one might be led to believe despite what is advertised, not to mention it's blatant fraud.

There are gains out there to be had, and what fun it is, but few do it right. Tune away but put your dime aside now to fund your own warranty!

Florian
10-09-09, 01:15 AM
the new ECUs will show ANY flashing from stock. Even if you try to flash it back it will show 2 flashes...1 for your tune and 1 back to stock....
You cant fool the new ECUs.....


F

Barry626
10-09-09, 01:23 AM
I STILL SEE GM'S POINT of VIEW.



:thumbsup:

Tony407
10-09-09, 02:15 AM
I would hope that most of us that custom tune our cars would expect this sort of situation.

Tony

cbloveday
10-09-09, 07:50 AM
Cmicasa,

I for one would like to know who did your tune.

Also, my dealer did a simple removal of parts and sent them to lingenfelter for mods. The dealer and I have a great relationship. I have bought 4 cars in 3years from them and they made it perfectly clear that if the car has drivetrain issues, they are required to take a snapshot of the calibrations and forward it to GM with the warranty claim. If the dealership grants warranty and later it is found by GM that there has been alterations to the ECU, the dealership is charged back.

I would not plan to decieve GM. The dealership gave me the warranty bulletin so I was aware of their position before I did any mods. I consider that fair and honorable.

I am not surprised at your outcome. Perhaps you should look into the calibrations and see if they were improper. You may have case with tuner.

Good luck and maybe they will work with you to some degree.

CIWS
10-09-09, 08:14 AM
The V is still quite a rarity on the street overall. As more V's hit the road you will read about more tuned cars being denied coverage as the problems caused will surface in greater numbers, like the vettes are now. As far as tuners advertising it will void warranty, ha, that would be the honorable thing to do but most in fact promote ways to deceive the tune was even there. Re-flashing isn't fool proof as one might be led to believe despite what is advertised, not to mention it's blatant fraud.

There are gains out there to be had, and what fun it is, but few do it right. Tune away but put your dime aside now to fund your own warranty!

:yeah:

Like most things with these cars it really depends upon the dealership you're dealing with and the relationship you have with them. But these days most are not as willing to simply repair first (warranty) and ask questions later. If you're running a modified car, you should understand it's a throw of the dice if you have a major failure in the drivetrain and take it to be repaired via the warranty.

Like Short-Throw mentioned right now because it's a Caddi and there's not that many of them out there it's not as big a factor as with the vettes. But one thing is for sure, if the LSA does not stand up to the mods being done to it and V2s start showing up at the dealerships with drivetrain failures, it will catch their attention.

MReiland
10-09-09, 10:02 AM
Cmicasa,

I for one would like to know who did your tune.

Also, my dealer did a simple removal of parts and sent them to lingenfelter for mods. The dealer and I have a great relationship. I have bought 4 cars in 3years from them and they made it perfectly clear that if the car has drivetrain issues, they are required to take a snapshot of the calibrations and forward it to GM with the warranty claim. If the dealership grants warranty and later it is found by GM that there has been alterations to the ECU, the dealership is charged back.

I would not plan to decieve GM. The dealership gave me the warranty bulletin so I was aware of their position before I did any mods. I consider that fair and honorable.

I am not surprised at your outcome. Perhaps you should look into the calibrations and see if they were improper. You may have case with tuner.

Good luck and maybe they will work with you to some degree.

I don't think it is cmicasa's it was a post from another forum....

CTSV4now
10-09-09, 12:47 PM
The reason I traded in my G8 GXP on a V was so I could have more power AND factory warranty. I could have easily kept the GXP and added supercharger for much less money, but then run the risk of future repairs.

I plan to keep the V stock until a more powerful V comes out. At that time I will trade in.

Hawkeye2
10-09-09, 02:32 PM
This subject sure is making the rounds. Once you alter a product, you void that portion of the warranty that applies to that component.

Any attempt to "cover" up the fact you altered it is FRAUD. How would you feel if you may a product, someone altered it to the point where it
was subject to loads and forces it was not designed for and then it breaks. Would you gladly replace it? I doubt it!

Now if you tune your car, and the power window motor goes, no problem. However I don't think GM woud argue that!

Jpjr
10-09-09, 02:36 PM
the new ECUs will show ANY flashing from stock. Even if you try to flash it back it will show 2 flashes...1 for your tune and 1 back to stock....
You cant fool the new ECUs.....


F


Right again Florian.

Not only can they tell if its been flashed they can even tell if the battery has been disconnected. Multiple disconnects in warm climates signals modding.

That is one of the upsides of running a tuned ECM that you can swap out.

Of course, I am at this point savoring my factory warranty and do not plan on blowing it anytime soon. You can do a bunch of traction mods to get more power to the wheels before modding the motor anyway, although I have to admit there is no better one hour mod than a pulley swap.

CadV
10-09-09, 03:05 PM
the new ECUs will show ANY flashing from stock. Even if you try to flash it back it will show 2 flashes...1 for your tune and 1 back to stock....
You cant fool the new ECUs.....


F

This is debatable. I have spoke t service managers and all they have ever said is it will track key turns.

Just go buy a new ECU and flash it will your stock cal. They have to prove it people and the dude in that thread took his car with the tune in there.

There was even a guy from a dealership that posted in here not too long ago that said you were wrong.

Florian
10-09-09, 05:21 PM
If you disagree, go ahead and flash it.... I wouldnt flash my ECU. BTW the flash detect has been standard since 2008 on most GM vehicles.
BTW, go ahead and find then post that dealer response.....


F

Florian
10-09-09, 05:23 PM
That is one of the upsides of running a tuned ECM that you can swap out.


This is the only solution.


F

cmicasa
10-09-09, 05:44 PM
Cmicasa,

I for one would like to know who did your tune.

Also, my dealer did a simple removal of parts and sent them to lingenfelter for mods. The dealer and I have a great relationship. I have bought 4 cars in 3years from them and they made it perfectly clear that if the car has drivetrain issues, they are required to take a snapshot of the calibrations and forward it to GM with the warranty claim. If the dealership grants warranty and later it is found by GM that there has been alterations to the ECU, the dealership is charged back.

I would not plan to decieve GM. The dealership gave me the warranty bulletin so I was aware of their position before I did any mods. I consider that fair and honorable.

I am not surprised at your outcome. Perhaps you should look into the calibrations and see if they were improper. You may have case with tuner.

Good luck and maybe they will work with you to some degree.



One quick point... I am NOT THE GUY WHOSE VETTE IS BEING DENIED... I provided a link. I go by Cmicasa over at VEtte Forum as well.

I did have my Vette tuned tho.. and I have had it checked by my Vette guy at the dealer and he says it is fine.. .but that is not to say that another service guy would say the same.,

nradcad
10-09-09, 06:14 PM
I don't think it is cmicasa's it was a post from another forum....

ya, a very long thread from another forum.

nradcad
10-09-09, 06:41 PM
There will come a day when changing your own oil will void your warrantee. Actually, I'm not sure why it doesn't now.

tbss08
10-09-09, 06:52 PM
One thing with swapping out the ECU, I remember reading an article about how the ECU talks with the other components and there can be issues with the radio and some other stuff. I believe the tuners have a way around this but be careful because I believe they can still see if the ECU has been swapped by key turns and other means. GM can tell is the ECU is flashed with a non standard tune and then flashed back.
This brings up a very interesting point from another member over on the CF. He bought a used corvette and did not know it had been tuned prior to his purchase. The car warranty on the drivetrain is shot and he is out some coin for repairs to the engine. If I buy used from a dealer or individual there will be a signed statement with proof of no tune or other items to void a warranty before the money exchanges hands.
:banghead:

nradcad
10-09-09, 07:15 PM
I'll tell y'all what, if D3 or waitforme offered a 3yr warrantee with their mods, they would quadruple business. I'd gladly pay a 100% mod premium. Seems like with that business model, they'd be out way ahead, considering most of them believe, I would suspect, that these LSx series engines come with margin as it is. So what do you say tuners?

CadV
10-09-09, 07:57 PM
If you disagree, go ahead and flash it.... I wouldnt flash my ECU. BTW the flash detect has been standard since 2008 on most GM vehicles.
BTW, go ahead and find then post that dealer response.....


F

Do you even own this car? Then to top it off you have zero experience flashing your ECU (I never flash my ECU) and since you have never flashed your ECU you ave zero experience working with dealers when you have a flashed ECU. All the stuff your saying is your opinion or from other posts you have read.

Simple people, buy a spare ECU then you won't get burned. If your hypothetical flash count is valid a brand new one will show 1 flash when you put your stock tune on.

They have to have proof and in the Vette guys case he took a tuned ECU into the dealership.

nradcad
10-09-09, 08:29 PM
They have to have proof and in the Vette guys case he took a tuned ECU into the dealership.

I'm confused on something, did that guy know he had a tune or not. I thought I read where he didn't even know it was tuned. If that was the case, that would suck.

Gary Wells
10-09-09, 09:19 PM
I'm confused on something, did that guy know he had a tune or not. I thought I read where he didn't even know it was tuned. If that was the case, that would suck.
FWIW, I believe that the person in question did know that he had a tune, but there is or was another post / thread on CF that another person bought a vette without being told and without knowing that the car had a tune, and the motor is broken on that one too. That might be on the same thread, but not the same poster.

Florian
10-09-09, 09:58 PM
Do you even own this car? Then to top it off you have zero experience flashing your ECU (I never flash my ECU) and since you have never flashed your ECU you ave zero experience working with dealers when you have a flashed ECU. All the stuff your saying is your opinion or from other posts you have read.

Simple people, buy a spare ECU then you won't get burned. If your hypothetical flash count is valid a brand new one will show 1 flash when you put your stock tune on.

They have to have proof and in the Vette guys case he took a tuned ECU into the dealership.

I use EFILive to flash my ECUs and have done so since my 04V....youre way off base. Who flashes your ECU? If you dont, then who does, and that raises the question; why dont you? Afraid? Not enough base knowledge?
Im involved with GM on a daily basis, Im pretty confident in what I post and what is right. Do I own a CTSv? No. What does that matter? I know the ECU has the algorhythms to detect changes...can you prove me wrong? If not, shut up.

F

Razorecko
10-09-09, 10:01 PM
^ does gm correlate mileage between different modules ? I know chrysler/dodge has 6-8 modules per car that each contain the mileage. If one module, ie -ecu is swapped in for a tuned one the dealer will know there was a change as there will be a mileage discrepency.

Florian
10-09-09, 10:07 PM
I will defer to Jess on this one, but I believe there is a continuity nanny on the 08+ ECUs. You may be able to overwrite the mileage with aftermarket software....Ive never taken the time to investigate.


F

Razorecko
10-09-09, 10:25 PM
Honestly I would imagine if GM did enough digging they would fine a tune no matter how well it was hidden or erased. The question is how far are they willing to go. If V's are starting to end up at the dealers with fried auto clutch packs or shot pistons than guaranteed there will be a bulletin....You pay to play - if sh*t goes south just rebuild stronger.

cmicasa
10-09-09, 10:46 PM
Well the reason why I agree with GM in this situation is because if I didn't... I'd be a hypocrite.

My company builds PCs and Servers for educational, consumer, and commercial use. One of the most well laid out portions of our policy in reference to warranty is that ANY TAMPERING, MODIFICATION, or HARDWARE UPGRADES done by any technician or individual not associated and authorized by my company VOIDS THE WARRANTY on all matters. Any repairs thereafter are at the owner's expense.

That is standard practice with every manufacturer I can think of on the market. Simply put... there are just to many ways someone could eff up all of this new technology then leave the manufacturer holding the bag.

GMX322V S/C
10-09-09, 11:18 PM
I use EFILive to flash my ECUs and have done so since my 04V....youre way off base. Who flashes your ECU? If you dont, then who does, and that raises the question; why dont you? Afraid? Not enough base knowledge?
Im involved with GM on a daily basis, Im pretty confident in what I post and what is right. Do I own a CTSv? No. What does that matter? I know the ECU has the algorhythms to detect changes...can you prove me wrong? If not, shut up.

FJesse says his handheld tunes do not leave a fingerprint after returning to stock and he went to great lengths to make this so. Short-Throw has his doubts. What say you?

chopmeat
10-09-09, 11:57 PM
The only thing I'd like to say is that...
I bought this f**kin' car, and I'll do whatever the hell I want to it!!!!:lildevil:

CadV
10-10-09, 12:06 AM
I use EFILive to flash my ECUs and have done so since my 04V....youre way off base. Who flashes your ECU? If you dont, then who does, and that raises the question; why dont you? Afraid? Not enough base knowledge?
Im involved with GM on a daily basis, Im pretty confident in what I post and what is right. Do I own a CTSv? No. What does that matter? I know the ECU has the algorhythms to detect changes...can you prove me wrong? If not, shut up.

F

I own EFILive and use it right now, I have 4 tunes loaded up in my Flashscan. Kind of throws your attempt to discredit out the window.

CadV
10-10-09, 12:10 AM
Jesse says his handheld tunes do not leave a fingerprint after returning to stock and he went to great lengths to make this so. Short-Throw has his doubts. What say you?

Sorry man Jesse is full of shit.

I tested his comments by taking it to a friend of mine that works at the dealership and he found all kinds of traces of his tune. Going back to stock everything looked normal from their end. I asked him about multiple flashes being recorded and he knew nothing about that. He said on a major problem they will copy the tune and send it to GM.

Another tech posted the same thing in this forum not too long ago. That's why I don't believe Florian.

nradcad
10-10-09, 12:16 AM
Sorry man Jesse is full of shit.

I tested his comments by taking it to a friend of mine that works at the dealership and he found all kinds of traces of his tune. Going back to stock everything looked normal from their end. I asked him about multiple flashes being recorded and he knew nothing about that. He said on a major problem they will copy the tune and send it to GM.

Another tech posted the same thing in this forum not too long ago. That's why I don't believe Florian.

You are a little confusing with your post. What does "Going back to stock everything looked normal from their end. " mean? Because you start out by sayng jesse's full of it, but then seem to contradict that.

Sorry, just confused.

Florian
10-10-09, 12:20 AM
I own EFILive and use it right now, I have 4 tunes loaded up in my Flashscan. Kind of throws your attempt to discredit out the window.



youre the one who bashed me....I told you to prove me wrong and all youve done is evade the point.....
I'll ask you again, prove me wrong....betcha cant.
Maybe you can run to your buddy at the dealership...thats the first place Id look for solid answers. :thepan: :rolleyes:
And until then, I'll say it again, STFU.


F

aco
10-10-09, 12:51 AM
You are a little confusing with your post. What does "Going back to stock everything looked normal from their end. " mean? Because you start out by sayng jesse's full of it, but then seem to contradict that.

Sorry, just confused.

Count me confused too. Jesse said that once you revert back to stock, it would not be traceable. Do you realize how much work it would take to put in a custom tune then try to make it invisible from a scan that is compared to what a stock tune should look like? You would need a lot more than programming.

Gary Wells
10-10-09, 07:47 AM
I would sure like to see some of the posters on this thread diffused enough to ensure completion of the thread as I am very much interested in the outcome of it, and what conclusion the thread comes to even if it is by consensus of opinion. I am on the wire here on whether to or not to mod my new CTS-V. And I think that a lot of other peeps would like to see this thread come to a natural termination, and without anybody being banned from this forum. Thanks in advance for any consideration you guys might feel like giving here. Peace. brothers.
TIA/R: Gary Wells

Jpjr
10-10-09, 08:22 AM
Honestly I would imagine if GM did enough digging they would fine a tune no matter how well it was hidden or erased. The question is how far are they willing to go. If V's are starting to end up at the dealers with fried auto clutch packs or shot pistons than guaranteed there will be a bulletin....You pay to play - if sh*t goes south just rebuild stronger.

the level they will go to is directly proportionate to the cost of warranty repair

Jpjr
10-10-09, 08:29 AM
The only thing I'd like to say is that...
I bought this f**kin' car, and I'll do whatever the hell I want to it!!!!:lildevil:

you also bought an engine warranty that was probably $5k the cost of your purchase.

i'm guessing.... but 550hp warrantied on a brand new LSA motor with no service record probably wasn't cheap for GM when calculating cost.

so yes you can do whatever you want but this is the equivalent of driving your $5k investment into a brick wall.

Prof
10-10-09, 09:06 AM
I am referred to as a moral scold from time to time, with that as a precursor, I believe that every tuner should state clearly to those who want performance modifications that any desire to have the warranty stay in effect should be put aside...now if the mod has nothing to do with the problem (you add boost, but want the electric windows repaired) it should still fly.

When we modify the engine we need to set our desire to hedge our bet on the dime of the manufacturer aside.

Put the shoe on your own foot...see it hurts!

Reverting to a stock pcm setting in my book (here is the moral scold...are you ready??) is fraud. If you modify your engine man-up...seek a factory service facility that is open minded and willing to address things that are not affected by your modifications and expect that they will take the conservative approach to things that may be impacted by your desire for more performance. When we mod, we should accept accountability for the potential down sides.

Rant off...hope I didn't offend anyone. Drive it like you stole it! But be prepared to pay for your enjoyment.

chopmeat
10-10-09, 10:22 AM
you also bought an engine warranty that was probably $5k the cost of your purchase.

i'm guessing.... but 550hp warrantied on a brand new LSA motor with no service record probably wasn't cheap for GM when calculating cost.

so yes you can do whatever you want but this is the equivalent of driving your $5k investment into a brick wall.






I like brick walls!!!!!!
Lol :lildevil:

NeedCTS-v
10-11-09, 01:05 AM
I am referred to as a moral scold from time to time, with that as a precursor, I believe that every tuner should state clearly to those who want performance modifications that any desire to have the warranty stay in effect should be put aside...now if the mod has nothing to do with the problem (you add boost, but want the electric windows repaired) it should still fly.

When we modify the engine we need to set our desire to hedge our bet on the dime of the manufacturer aside.

Put the shoe on your own foot...see it hurts!

Reverting to a stock pcm setting in my book (here is the moral scold...are you ready??) is fraud. If you modify your engine man-up...seek a factory service facility that is open minded and willing to address things that are not affected by your modifications and expect that they will take the conservative approach to things that may be impacted by your desire for more performance. When we mod, we should accept accountability for the potential down sides.

Rant off...hope I didn't offend anyone. Drive it like you stole it! But be prepared to pay for your enjoyment.

I tend to agree with you here. I don't think that people should stop modding, it is their car, they should do what they want. This said, folks should factor in the cost of major repairs to the plan, not just the mod itself. Speed is not cheap and those who modify the car should not ask the manufacturer to pick up the tab for their mistakes or need to go faster.

It's as simple as that in my mind.

Vrocks
10-11-09, 04:45 AM
Jesse told me that switching out the ecu won't help you if GM really looks for a tune. Chances are your tuner will modify parameters that will be recorded by the tranmission control unit - and maybe other modules are "listening" as well...

I'm glad I'm still on a stock tune right now (although I'm sure the ecu has recorded a higher than stock boost level) - I'm going to do a few pulls to check AF. If the car is close enough to acceptable parameters I'm not going to tune it. Which is why I bought the mods I did at the time. I didn't feel like going all out with a 9.5 or bigger setup.

I also look at it as my problem if the engine blows. I've accepted the fact that I may end up learning the hard way for modding my car. If I do, I'll probably never do it again or atleast not to a car that doesn't really need it / isn't being built with 1/4mi or road course use in mind.

Tony407
10-11-09, 05:00 AM
Jesse told me that switching out the ecu won't help you if GM really looks for a tune. Chances are your tuner will modify parameters that will be recorded by the tranmission control unit - and maybe other modules are "listening" as well...


WHAT??? The main selling point of Jesse's tune was that it was undetectable after returning the car back to stock. THE MAIN POINT.

Well my car has had nothing but repeated ABS, stabilitrac, and brake assist warnings on a daily basis for several months now. I doubt it has anything to do with the tune (my stock Jaguar had the same warnings from time to time) but I'll certainly find out when I take the car in to have the problem looked at after I get around to returning it to stock. I just haven't had time yet.

Tony

aceofblitz
10-11-09, 10:05 AM
Am i the only guy here who doesn't care about the warranty?

nradcad
10-11-09, 10:22 AM
Am i the only guy here who doesn't care about the warranty?

no, there might be another one or two.

Vrocks
10-11-09, 08:39 PM
WHAT??? The main selling point of Jesse's tune was that it was undetectable after returning the car back to stock. THE MAIN POINT.

Well my car has had nothing but repeated ABS, stabilitrac, and brake assist warnings on a daily basis for several months now. I doubt it has anything to do with the tune (my stock Jaguar had the same warnings from time to time) but I'll certainly find out when I take the car in to have the problem looked at after I get around to returning it to stock. I just haven't had time yet.

Tony
Not his handheld "tuner" just a tune from a shop.

wait4me
10-12-09, 10:01 AM
OK lets get some facts straight.

YES IT IS POSSIBLE 10000000% to make a hidden program. I do them all the time.

I have all the same scan tools that gm does and following all of thier proceedures, mine come up clean 100000% of the time.

What exactly did the dealer find supposedly on a hidden tune of mine????

I can change ANYTHING including storage algorithms, So im not worried if they make changes.... Ida pro is good...

The pcm only stores a change if the Check sum verification number is <> than its prevously stored value.. As do the other modules.....

SOOOOO if they are the same even with the new tune, then it wont store the program session on any module. As it thinks it is just a gm reflash of the same stock part numbers.

I can post the ida pro dissasembly of that peticular section of the computers boot system code if you guys would like. It shows it plain as day. 2009 is when it looks like it was activated. It has been in the code since 2006 on the e67 ECM but it was bypassed untill 2009 cars..

The checksum verification number is just math.

By fixing the math, you fix the issue.

I have heard of 0, yes 0 people getting thier warrenties voided with a hidden tune. I think we proved that when one guy had a bad tranmission that failed when he first got his car.

Now, As for Vin numbers, and mileage ect....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The drive door module stores alot of information also, Not mileage, but the number of vins that have been on the system per module.

So you shouldnt put in a module that has a different vin number in it before plugging it into your car. If you do, it sees what module id and then records the different vin and its count. For example....

Say you put in a computer that hasnt been tuned to the correct vin number yet and you want to flash it.

You put it in, turn on the key, and the door module does its poll on the can bus..

All modules check good, then it polls Module $11. It reports a vin different than stored, so it then takes that vin and writes it to ram. Then ups the vin count +1.

HOWEVER if the computer has been programmed first on the bench with the correct vin number, it bypasses that issue.

Same goes for any other modules on the buss. You just have to make sure the correct vin number is in the module before putting it on your car and introduce it on the buss....

Gary Wells
10-12-09, 10:20 AM
Thanks for posting up all of that info, Jesse, I feel somewhat safer now regarding the issue, even though I don't understand everything.

wait4me
10-12-09, 10:22 AM
Here is a file with 100% FFFF thru out the whole file minus the identifiers.. Tell me what you see that is out of line and they can see that it has been modified. :) i wiped out over 7000 tables/perameters. That is way more than i would do on a mail order tune.... But im just proving my point.

Ketzer
10-12-09, 10:24 AM
Jess,
Your explanation is pretty clear. I would like to clarify just a little.
I just bought a 09' GMC Duramax. The buzz on the diesel forums is that ANY time you plug up a tuner and flash a tune, it records an event. Even if you flash back to stock, you now have two extra events logged that the dealer did not do. Rumour is that they are voiding warranty for the extra unexplained events, NOT because they are finding ANY tweaks or a tune. Is it the same for the caddy ecu?

Yes guys, I understand that the Mag-Moss act prevents the manuf from doing these types of things. The money and burden are on the individual to fight the manuf, they have unlimited time and resources and you have a possibly broken vehicle with no warranty.


Jeff-

wait4me
10-12-09, 10:29 AM
Jeff, That is differnt, We are talking different computer types. Different platforms have different computer types. Your peticular one is a BOSCH ecm. That does it different. However. That is easiely modified also. I just cant / wont show how it is done.

It is c vn based also, but in the cals, the segments run together making it harder to fix the calibration to be correct after the change.. There is however a bug in the controller, that with a little messing with, can make it get corrupt where it will wipe its whole contents and start fresh due to it thinking there was data coruption on the eeprom...

Ketzer
10-12-09, 10:51 AM
Thanks Jess. I figured they were completely different animals.
No need to let out any trade secrets on the truck ecu, I'm sure there are a half dozen companies busting butt right now to do exactly the tricks you hinted at. I can wait for them to get a handle on it.
Something I've learned from you tech guys, If it is code, it can be manipulated.

Jeff-

wait4me
10-12-09, 10:56 AM
Exactly. They key in your case is a seperate eeprom, not the main flash chip.

Z06ified
10-12-09, 11:12 AM
I'm thinking I'll be leaving my V bone stock until the warranty runs out. I was going to do headers, but since that needs a tune to get the most out of them, I think I'll wait. The warranty is worth too much to me to sacrifice.

Florian
10-12-09, 02:25 PM
Jess,

The OP that bashed you has conveniently turned tail and left the discussion. I called him out, now you've done the same.....
He has no legs to stand on, so I wouldnt worry about his info.


F

09V
10-18-09, 03:12 AM
Gents,
I have tuned several other vehicles, but never had to concern myself with these issues. I now own an 09V and it is apparent that GM is only trying to have a reason to deny claims. It seems to me that any motor that can produce 550+hp should have a little room for error.

Wouldn't you all agree? I have tried desperately to find the least difficult and least oem changing upgrades, but why? The motor should be more than adequate to handle more to some degree. Hell GMPP offers upgrade supercharger pulleys for their cobalt SS and the Saturn Redline. Why? If people think there isn't anything left on the table and these oem configurations are maxed out why would they allow you to upgrade a car that costs less than my motor(sarcasm).

I agree that if you play sometimes you pay, but at the same time GM is only covering their ass due to the fact that in a perfect world none of their cars would ever show up for warranty work and we all know that this is not the case.

Unfortunately GM stinks and they have brainwashed service writers and we must now pay for it when we have an intake upgrade for instance. Morons is the best word to describe them.

Sorry if my a hole sounded like it was rattling in the wind. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you plan to deceive and lose still, sorry. Just let me know what you did to the T and I will have an example of what not to do.

Matt

Tony407
10-18-09, 04:12 AM
I now own an 09V and it is apparent that GM is only trying to have a reason to deny claims. It seems to me that any motor that can produce 550+hp should have a little room for error.

The room for error are the margins they design for their OWN problems and resultant warranty work.

Why would they pay for anything that happens to their products when WE are the ones changing those margins?

And yes, I am a tuner.

Tony

Prof
10-18-09, 07:46 AM
The room for error are the margins they design for their OWN problems and resultant warranty work.

Why would they pay for anything that happens to their products when WE are the ones changing those margins?

And yes, I am a tuner.

Tony

Well I wondered how long it would be before someone said it...it usually doesn't get said, but Tony did...thank you sir.

Its me the moral scold again...modifying your engine for increased performance and then doing anything to hide the fact from the manufacturer is fraud, theft, and in my opinion just morally corrupt.

I know that there are some dealerships (maybe even many or most) that look for excuses to void a warranty...but you are the one that bought into that situation when you purchased the vehicle...read the warranty.

I don't think there is anything wrong with modification to the nth degree, but trying to avoid the scrutiny of the dealership is just wrong. We need to man up...

Once we change the performance of the vehicle (we, not the tuner, the tuner is only our expert subcontractor) assume the responsibility for whatever happens...and we should do so willingly and factor that into the cost of modification at the front end. In my experience I have found most dealers will work with you on warranty issues, some even bend over backward to help. If the warranty problem is not related to the modification and you are straight with them, it should not take much to get support...on the other hand we should realize that increased boost will probably force a dealer to say no to warranty work on anything past the throttle body in the entire power train!

I love tuners, and I think they can do worlds of wonder to create the vehicles we want to drive...but I think we are putting unreal expectations on them, aside from asking them to be complicit in our fraudulent actions and risking their business for the sake of saving us a few (relative term) dollars.

Rant off...I am often wrong and I have never stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.

ducatidesmo
10-30-09, 11:22 AM
Gents,
I have tuned several other vehicles, but never had to concern myself with these issues. I now own an 09V and it is apparent that GM is only trying to have a reason to deny claims. It seems to me that any motor that can produce 550+hp should have a little room for error.

Wouldn't you all agree? I have tried desperately to find the least difficult and least oem changing upgrades, but why? The motor should be more than adequate to handle more to some degree. Hell GMPP offers upgrade supercharger pulleys for their cobalt SS and the Saturn Redline. Why? If people think there isn't anything left on the table and these oem configurations are maxed out why would they allow you to upgrade a car that costs less than my motor(sarcasm).

I agree that if you play sometimes you pay, but at the same time GM is only covering their ass due to the fact that in a perfect world none of their cars would ever show up for warranty work and we all know that this is not the case.

Unfortunately GM stinks and they have brainwashed service writers and we must now pay for it when we have an intake upgrade for instance. Morons is the best word to describe them.

Sorry if my a hole sounded like it was rattling in the wind. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you plan to deceive and lose still, sorry. Just let me know what you did to the T and I will have an example of what not to do.

Matt

Honestly guys, GM is just (Unfortunately) catching up... Subaru would GIVE AWAY SCCA memberships and if they caught the scooby owners on the track, would void thier warranties. Mitsubishi has had an even stricter practice on Powertrain work than GM, since back to thier Gen 2 turbo Eclipse days