: Oil temperature display?



Jeffrey
09-28-09, 12:52 PM
Hi,

Does the DIC display oil temps? If not, how do you know when the oil temp. has increased to an acceptable level to run the V hard?

Thanks,
Jeffrey

NeedCTS-v
09-28-09, 02:13 PM
Hi,

Does the DIC display oil temps? If not, how do you know when the oil temp. has increased to an acceptable level to run the V hard?

Thanks,
Jeffrey

Nope... There was another discussion about this about a month ago.

Seemingly the most important information to our German competitors (both the M5 and RS4 have dynamic RPM counters based on oil temp) is of no importance to the V :hmm:

I just try to use common sense. Ample warm up time before driving and another 5-10 minutes of normal driving before doing anything serious.

Jeffrey
09-28-09, 02:43 PM
Nope...

Hi,

That really surprises me. My '09 Vette has one on the DIC, so I assumed there must be one for the V and I was just not looking in the right place. Wonder why GM puts it on some high performance cars but not others?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

rjoffe
09-28-09, 04:48 PM
Time for :

http://www.plxdevices.com/multigauges.html

nradcad
09-28-09, 09:44 PM
Seems like the V could be hacked to display it. I mean honestly, that info has to be available and I bet you could figure out how to display it.

nradcad
09-28-09, 09:47 PM
But I agree...that is vital information for an engine.

tedcmiller
09-28-09, 11:05 PM
The following is pure guess work on my part, but I offer it as an explanation for no oil temperature readout on the CTS-V.

Such a readout would require the addition of another sensor (in addition to the oil level sensor) to the oil supply. While oil temperature is interesting, the coolant temperature (for which there is a sensor and there has always been, as far as I know) is more important an more likely to get into an undersiable zone. Obviously, excessive coolant temperature will result in higher oil temperature. However, with the use of pure synthetic oil (Mobil 1 per GM), the oil can go to a higher temperature before getting into the danger zone. Excessive coolant temperature will probably become a problem before excessive oil temprature does. Loss of oil is signaled by the oil level sensor.

In short, a significant number of dollars are saved (no sensor, no sensor mounting, no wiring, no software to monitor and display oil temperature) on a car for which cost is an important factor.

For those hoping for a hack, it should be pointed out that with no sensor there is no temperature reading. A simple hack will not happen.

nradcad
09-28-09, 11:42 PM
I just can't believe they are not measuring oil temp. But maybe they aren't.

4gear70
09-29-09, 12:22 AM
The following is pure guess work on my part, but I offer it as an explanation for no oil temperature readout on the CTS-V.

Such a readout would require the addition of another sensor (in addition to the oil level sensor) to the oil supply. While oil temperature is interesting, the coolant temperature (for which there is a sensor and there has always been, as far as I know) is more important an more likely to get into an undersiable zone. Obviously, excessive coolant temperature will result in higher oil temperature. However, with the use of pure synthetic oil (Mobil 1 per GM), the oil can go to a higher temperature before getting into the danger zone. Excessive coolant temperature will probably become a problem before excessive oil temprature does. Loss of oil is signaled by the oil level sensor.

In short, a significant number of dollars are saved (no sensor, no sensor mounting, no wiring, no software to monitor and display oil temperature) on a car for which cost is an important factor.

For those hoping for a hack, it should be pointed out that with no sensor there is no temperature reading. A simple hack will not happen.

I would tend to agree with your reasoning.. especially with the no sensor/no hack.
It's a shame because the '04-'07 V's had Oil temp (as well as Trans temp) and they came with the same synthetic oil. Oh well, probably another feature that they figured nobody used like the reverse tilt mirror.

nradcad
09-29-09, 01:00 AM
Does the ZR1 display oil temp?

Z06ified
09-29-09, 10:22 AM
Yes, all Corvettes since the C5 displayed oil temp.

This is pretty stupid I think. There is definitely an oil temperature sensor in the car, as all the GM LS-based V-8's require it for the PCM to know when to go into limp home mode. It's just another GMism as to why they chose not to display it on the DIC. You can probably see it with a Tech-II.

Any car designed to run on the track, like the V, should have an oil temp display. Coolant temp is not good enough. I've been on the track with my Z06 in really hot ambient conditions, and saw 310F oil temps after 35 minutes of hot laps, but the coolant temps were fine at 210F.

Jeffrey
09-29-09, 01:03 PM
Yes, all Corvettes since the C5 displayed oil temp.

This is pretty stupid I think. There is definitely an oil temperature sensor in the car, as all the GM LS-based V-8's require it for the PCM to know when to go into limp home mode. It's just another GMism as to why they chose not to display it on the DIC. You can probably see it with a Tech-II.

Any car designed to run on the track, like the V, should have an oil temp display. Coolant temp is not good enough. I've been on the track with my Z06 in really hot ambient conditions, and saw 310F oil temps after 35 minutes of hot laps, but the coolant temps were fine at 210F.

Hi,

I share these thoughts/opinions. The info. is available and would cost very little to display on the DIC. GM should offer oil temp. displays on all their high performance (track prone) vehicles.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

tedcmiller
09-29-09, 04:03 PM
There is no sensor for oil temprature on the 2009 CTS-V. Therefore, there can be no display of the oil temperature via the DIC, Tech II, or any other reader. Until a sensor is installed, the information is not available.

GM-4-LIFE
09-29-09, 05:25 PM
I can't believe GM/Cadillac removed it from the CTS-V. It is supposed to be a high performance vehicle and should have the oil temp readings and it would be nice if the car had the park mirror tilt feature.

SG

Z06ified
09-29-09, 05:27 PM
There is no sensor for oil temprature on the 2009 CTS-V. Therefore, there can be no display of the oil temperature via the DIC, Tech II, or any other reader. Until a sensor is installed, the information is not available.

That's amazing, especially given the forced induction nature of the car, and given that the close cousin to the LSA, the LS9 in the ZR1 has one.

tedcmiller
09-29-09, 10:31 PM
If anyone can find an oil temperature sensor (not an oil level sensor) on the 2009 CTS-V, let me know where it is.

Jeffrey
09-30-09, 11:35 AM
If anyone can find an oil temperature sensor (not an oil level sensor) on the 2009 CTS-V, let me know where it is.

Hi Ted,

How much would it cost GM to install an oil temperature sensor?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

tedcmiller
09-30-09, 12:28 PM
I have no idea how much it would cost GM to install an oil temperature sensor. The fact that they did not do it indicates that it would have a significant effect on the final price of the vehicle. What is significant? I don't know the answer to that either. It might not be a lot as an individual item, but when you add them all up it becomes a fairly large amount of money. All I know for sure is that there is not an oil temperature sensor on the 2009 CTS-V.

pmsteinm
09-30-09, 01:34 PM
I always figured they didn't put the oil temp sensor on the new V because of all the trouble they had with the V1 sensors reading too high. Cost them a lot of money in warranty loaners & service when there wasn't any real problem.

With the V2, not having a sensor means no one can complain that their oil reading is too hot.


That said, I wish is still had one.

tedcmiller
09-30-09, 03:38 PM
I guess I was lucky. I had two pre-2009 CTS-Vs (a 2004 and a 2005) and never saw any warnings regarding excessively high oil temperature. The oil temperature sensors on my two cars seemed to work fine. However, I did see some threads regarding this kind of problem on the 2004-2007 forum. I think you are correct, in that due to previous problems, elimination of that information by not having a sensor probably saved them warranty money. However, they saved even more money on the price of the car by not having to engineer the sensor.

Jeffrey
09-30-09, 05:25 PM
I think you are correct, in that due to previous problems, elimination of that information by not having a sensor probably saved them warranty money. However, they saved even more money on the price of the car by not having to engineer the sensor.

Hi Ted,

I have to wonder how hard/expensive it is for GM to correctly engineer/install an oil temperature sensor. My '09 base coupe Vette cost less money and has one installed that seems to work correctly. Seems like GM should be able to offer this on a $70k (MSRP) vehicle when they can offer it on a $55k (MSRP) vehicle.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Z06ified
10-02-09, 01:07 PM
I just thought of something: the engine must have an oil temperature sensor, because the oil life monitor algorithm needs oil temperature data to work.

tedcmiller
10-02-09, 01:35 PM
I believe the oil life algorithm uses the coolant temperature to generate the oil life number, not the oil temperature.

tedcmiller
10-03-09, 02:12 AM
As a followup to my previous post, then owners manual only refers to engine temperature when describing the oil life monitor. It does not indicate how that is determined. The factory service manual apparently does not provide any explantion of what factors the algorithm takes into account. It simply tells you that it is there and how to reset it.

MReiland
10-03-09, 08:29 AM
Could this be it?

MReiland
10-03-09, 10:56 AM
Shown on the oil pan.

Jeffrey
10-03-09, 07:14 PM
Could this be it?

Hi,

Thanks! :thumbsup:

Are both of your attachments for '09 V's?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

tedcmiller
10-03-09, 07:48 PM
Although the link shows that part as an oil level and an oil temperature sensor, I am inclined to believe that it it only an oil level sensor. The part shown on the oil pan is used to detect the oil level. If anyone knows how to interpret its output as both level and temperature, have at it.

nradcad
10-03-09, 10:29 PM
I'm inclined to think that 'temp' means temperature and it's there and readable.

tedcmiller
10-03-09, 10:52 PM
Figure out how to make it display the oil temperature and you will be revered by many people. Good luck!

nradcad
10-04-09, 01:25 AM
Figure out how to make it display the oil temperature and you will be revered by many people. Good luck!

challenge? I'm on it....

If I can't do it, I sure as hell know a whole lot more about the car when it's over.

MReiland
10-04-09, 08:31 AM
Depending on how many wires go to that sensor, it could read 2 different signals in a single sensor. Also found this in the repair manual.

Engine Control Module Scan Tool Information (V8)
Engine Oil Level Switch
--
OK
This parameter displays the status of the engine oil level switch as determined by the control module. The control module uses this information to turn ON the low engine oil lamp if the engine oil level remains approximately 1 quart low for a sufficient amount of time. The scan tool will display Low when the engine oil level is low. The scan tool will display OK when the engine oil level is correct.

Engine Oil Life Remaining
--
Varies
This parameter displays the amount engine oil life remaining before requiring an oil change based on calculations by the control module. The scan tool will display lower values as the engine oil life approaches 0 miles.

Engine Oil Pressure Switch
--
OK
This parameter displays the state of the EOP as determined by the control module. The control module monitors the EOP switch to determine if the EOP is sufficient. The scan tool will display low when the EOP is below a predetermined value.

Engine Oil Temperature Calculated
--
Varies C/F
This parameter displays the temperature of the engine oil as calculated by the control module using various sensor inputs. The engine oil temperature calculated has a range of values indicating a low value when the oil temperature is low to a high value when the oil temperature is high.

MReiland
10-04-09, 08:34 AM
I'd go look at mine, except.... I don't have one...:(

OK here is the info on the switch, it looks like it could be both:
Connector Part Information
OEM: 15326808
Service: See Catalog
Description: 3-Way F GT 150 Series, Sealed (BK)

Terminal Part Information
Terminal/Tray: 12103881/2
Core/Insulation Crimp: E/C
Release Tool/Test Probe: 12180559-1/J-35616-14 (GN)


Engine Oil Level and Temperature Sensor (LSA) Pin
Wire
Circuit
Function

A
0.8 BN
1174
Engine Oil Level Switch Signal

B
0.5 D-GN/WH
357
Engine Oil Temperature Signal

C
0.5 TN
470
Low Reference

tedcmiller
10-04-09, 10:08 PM
I have the car but I have no lift. I don't plan to try and crawl under the car to look at this sensor. I might look at the sensor and connector when it comes time to change the oil since the car will then be up on ramps, but probably not before.

Jeffrey
10-05-09, 11:10 AM
Engine Oil Temperature Calculated
--
Varies C/F
This parameter displays the temperature of the engine oil as calculated by the control module using various sensor inputs. The engine oil temperature calculated has a range of values indicating a low value when the oil temperature is low to a high value when the oil temperature is high.

Hi,

Thank you! IMO, that doesn't leave much room for doubt.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

tedcmiller
10-05-09, 04:31 PM
That sound nice but there is no indication from where this information comes, and it still doesn't tell how to display the oil temperature.

MReiland
10-05-09, 09:02 PM
That sound nice but there is no indication from where this information comes, and it still doesn't tell how to display the oil temperature.

The information that I posted comes from the GM Service Parts Operations (SPO) internal website and from their online repair manuals also on the site. One of the dealers could also check the part # and show that it has the matching signals to what I posted above. I still haven't found anything listing a way to see it on the DIC, perhaps if it can go into a diagnostic mode. The main reason for posting it is merely to slow down the comments of GM somehow cutting corners or not being able to figure out how to engineer in an oil temperature monitor. I think it is there, the sensor shows 2 different signals it is reading, one being Oil Temperature, it just isn't available on the DIC.

On a side note I parked next to a volt yesterday at Meijer's!!! Freaking Awesome to see how close to production ready it was, almost no camo. Some extra instrumentation on the dash, but really awesome to know it is coming soon.

tedcmiller
10-05-09, 09:21 PM
It seemd a little strange to me that the information is available and the Cadillac programmers chose not to display it, unless as one poster suggested, it is extremely inaccurate and causes more problems than it solves. In any case, no one ever suggested that GM was cutting corners or too inept to engineer an oil temperature display.

nradcad
10-06-09, 01:20 AM
It does seem odd, however, since most of the time, the oil temp is really the 1 sensor you look to as to when you can really lay into the car. Now all I have is a coolant temp sensor that never goes below 190 even when the car is off, because I live in Houston.

Jeffrey
10-06-09, 11:53 AM
In any case, no one ever suggested that GM was cutting corners or too inept to engineer an oil temperature display.

Hi Ted,

I thought you were implying earlier in this thread that GM was doing this to save money on engineering and warranty work?


I think you are correct, in that due to previous problems, elimination of that information by not having a sensor probably saved them warranty money. However, they saved even more money on the price of the car by not having to engineer the sensor.

I continue to think that "having to engineer the sensor" would not change the V's MSRP. I don't believe it would be expensive or difficult for GM to do given that I have one that seems to work great in my C6 base coupe.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

tedcmiller
10-06-09, 02:38 PM
I originally thought that the omission of the oil temperature display saved money, both in engineering, parts and warranty. This obviously reduced the overall price of the car. However, if the posts that identify a dual purpose sensor (level and temperature) combined with one posters suggestion that the oil temperature display on the V1 was inaccurate are correct, I am forced to modify my point of view. Obviously, not displaying the oil temperature saves engineering money, in that programming and wiring for the display are not required, but not in not having a sensor. This does not imply that GM is not capable of providing the display. The idea that warranty money is saved still applies since you can complain about something (the oil temperature display) that does not exist, and even more warranty money is saved when people don't complain about excessive oil temperature (as I said before, the original design, according to the poster, was inaccurate). Your guess that the cost of providing the display is minimal and has no effect on MSRP is just that - a guess.

Jeffrey
10-06-09, 03:26 PM
Your guess that the cost of providing the display is minimal and has no effect on MSRP is just that - a guess.

Hi Ted,

Yes, it is merely a guess. I was not trying to state it as fact.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2018283-post13.html

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Dr. Design
10-20-09, 07:06 PM
BUMP

We recently had a customer want his oil temp displayed so we came up with the following:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/09CTSV_OilCoolerTempGuage_Intro.jpg

Please let us know if you have any questions. Install was pretty straight forward. It something we can only do if we have the vehicle here as custom modifications will need to be done.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Jeffrey
10-20-09, 07:41 PM
BUMP

We recently had a customer want his oil temp displayed so we came up with the following:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/09CTSV_OilCoolerTempGuage_Intro.jpg

Please let us know if you have any questions. Install was pretty straight forward. It something we can only do if we have the vehicle here as custom modifications will need to be done.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Hi,

That is awesome..... great work! :thumbsup:

Did you use the oil temp. sensor already in the V?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Mike 09 V
10-20-09, 08:18 PM
Curious as to what knowing the temperature will do for you? Do these cars have an oil cooler? Then I guess if you know the normal temp then you can tell if there is a problem with the cooling system. If not then the temperature has got to be relative to the coolant temp. doesn't it? Since the oil is spending most of its time flowing over all the metal parts that are in turn being cooled by the radiator there should be some factor that you could add or subtract from the water temp. to get a general idea of the oil temp if you really care that much. Also wouldn't oil that is too hot cause the pressure to be different than it should be? Just thinking out loud without much in there to think with.

Dr. Design
10-20-09, 08:29 PM
Hello Jeffrey,

Actually the factory does not have a temp sensor. It has a level sensor and a pressure sending unit, but no temp.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac




Hi,

That is awesome..... great work! :thumbsup:

Did you use the oil temp. sensor already in the V?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Dr. Design
10-20-09, 08:37 PM
Actually it is fairly important to know that the oil is at operating temperature before standing on it. The old rule of thumb from racing was that you always wanted your oil nice and hot and your fuel nice and cold. You would be surprised to see how long it takes the oil to actually get to operating temps.

Keep in mind that the cooling system and the oiling system are heated and cooled at different rates. One will not tell you exactly what the other is doing.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



Curious as to what knowing the temperature will do for you? Do these cars have an oil cooler? Then I guess if you know the normal temp then you can tell if there is a problem with the cooling system. If not then the temperature has got to be relative to the coolant temp. doesn't it? Since the oil is spending most of its time flowing over all the metal parts that are in turn being cooled by the radiator there should be some factor that you could add or subtract from the water temp. to get a general idea of the oil temp if you really care that much. Also wouldn't oil that is too hot cause the pressure to be different than it should be? Just thinking out loud without much in there to think with.

mrichards
10-21-09, 01:37 PM
The install looks good but I'd rather see some sensors displayed on the pop-up NAV screen! The Feds say we can't watch a DVD play but they didn't say anything about engine sensors!!!

jzchen
10-21-09, 04:41 PM
That sound nice but there is no indication from where this information comes, and it still doesn't tell how to display the oil temperature.

I think MReiland's posts and the posts about previous V owners having issues with false high oil temps gives us all the clues of what has happened. There is definitely an oil temp sensor in the pan, and probably elsewhere in the engine. How the computer calculates what the actual temperature is is up in the air, but maybe it would take some kind of weighted average from temp sensors placed in several places around the engine. I'm guessing the issues with overheating oil complaints has caused GM to remove the readout from the DIC, that is all.

Gary Wells
10-21-09, 08:05 PM
Dr. Design (D3 Cadillac):
What's the out the door cost of the cobalt gage, installation (labor), & tax?

Dr. Design
10-21-09, 10:03 PM
I will have to get the customers invoice out and see as it was part of a much larger install. Oh and I forgot to mention that the gauge can be hidden with the factory door as it still works along with the cigarette lighter.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Dr. Design (D3 Cadillac):
What's the out the door cost of the cobalt gage, installation (labor), & tax?

Gary Wells
10-21-09, 10:08 PM
I would like to know, Dr. Design. Thanks.

tedcmiller
10-21-09, 11:27 PM
My guess is that since there was no intention of providing an oil temperature display in the DIC, the sensor in the oil pan might not include the temperature sensor (less expensive). That is, the sensor in the oil pan only contains the level sensor. In which case, it would be necessary for D3 to install a temperature sensor in the oil pan to provide info to the gauge in the dash. I guess we might know the answer to this when Dr. Design provides the cost. This, of course, assumes that Dr. Design's info includes a breakdown of what was done, all oil temperature components installed, and the cost of each. If his info only provides the total cost, then I guess we still won't know.

MReiland
10-22-09, 08:08 AM
The sensor may still be there but not able to be accessed by an end user? That would mean D3 had to install their own additional sensor and gauge to display it. I don't know either way, the wiring shows a 3 wire sensor at that location that shows both level and temp? Anyway the original post was how to show it on the DIC and I don't think that's happening with the current setup so D3's solution seems to be what you get if you really want to see a live update on the temp.

Did a little searching and a few other makes use a very similar setup, I found that HELLA makes a dual purpose unit for Audi/VW that mounts in the oil pan and reads both. So it is still very possible that it is there you just can read it directly. Next time someone has it up on the lift get the part # for the sensor and we can look it up. I looked up the GM # and it didn't tell me much on the sensor itself.

pmsteinm
10-22-09, 12:10 PM
I figured out a way to guess when the oil is warmed up: Watch the oil pressure gauge. After a long drive, it reads 41-42 PSI just over 2k RPM. So I just watch the pressure gauge until I see that at 2k RPM. When the engine is cold it starts out at 50+. Yesterday while cruising on the interstate I watch the engine temp vs oil pressure vs time. When the engine warmed up, the oil was around 45 PSI at 2k, five minutes after that is was 42 PSI.

I've found that in the colder weather, the oil temp doesn't really matter. By the time the tires are warmed up enough to be able to use WOT and high RPMS the oil is plenty warmed up. And as it gets colder, the tires will never get warm enough anyway. Gonna be a long winter....

tedcmiller
10-22-09, 01:50 PM
On page 11-289 of the factory service manual there is a three-pin connector identified for the Engine Oil Level and Temperature Sensor. The three signals are identified as A) Engine Oil Level Switch Signal, B) Engine Oil Temperature Signal, and C)Low Reference. So apparently those who believe that the oil temperature is detected by a combined sensor might be correct. There is also a pictorial on page 11-169 that shows a combined sensor in the oil pan (item 11). So, I guess the question now is the temperature signal wired. If so, where does the wire go? I suppose that someone with a lift or doing an oil change can look at this and let us know.

Dr. Design
10-23-09, 10:46 PM
Hello,
Okay sorry for the delay in getting this info posted.

The breakdown is as follows:
1.5 Hours Fabrication
$125 Gauge
1.5 Hours for Installation
Total cost about $425

The cool part about this is that we didn't have to drill the pan to get this to work. However the aftermarket sensor is still located in the pan, where the temperature needs to be monitored. The gauge is hooked up to the factory dimmer switch.

This car will be at the shop next week. We will see if we can snap some additional shots of the install.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


My guess is that since there was no intention of providing an oil temperature display in the DIC, the sensor in the oil pan might not include the temperature sensor (less expensive). That is, the sensor in the oil pan only contains the level sensor. In which case, it would be necessary for D3 to install a temperature sensor in the oil pan to provide info to the gauge in the dash. I guess we might know the answer to this when Dr. Design provides the cost. This, of course, assumes that Dr. Design's info includes a breakdown of what was done, all oil temperature components installed, and the cost of each. If his info only provides the total cost, then I guess we still won't know.

Gary Wells
10-23-09, 11:54 PM
If it is OK with you and the car owner, I would like to stop by your shop and check it out. About what day or days do you expect it to be in your shop? Please let me know if it is OK to stop by?

Dr. Design
10-27-09, 06:07 PM
I think this car will be here Thursday of this week. Feel free to stop bye.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


If it is OK with you and the car owner, I would like to stop by your shop and check it out. About what day or days do you expect it to be in your shop? Please let me know if it is OK to stop by?

Gary Wells
10-27-09, 10:11 PM
Thanks, Dr. Design, I will try and make it by after work Thurs.