: LS9 & Carbon Ceramic Brakes from ZR1 on a CTS-V



jzchen
09-28-09, 12:13 AM
Did a search and couldn't find anything about it but do you think GM would build a CTS-V with an LS9 engine and fit the carbon ceramic brakes as well? I asked salespeople at my local dealers and they kind of ignored the question.

With the 2011 M5 just around the corner with the 4.4L TT I'm sure the car magazines will most likely put the advantage with the M5 again... The E63 just got more hp as well as better fuel economy for 2010...

If any dealers see this if you can get one let me know. Coming from an STS-V there is still a little room in the budget if it can be done. I don't like the idea of not having a warranty and emissions here in CA are strict so something factory would be great.

TIA

Florian
09-28-09, 11:02 AM
the motor mounts are the same as is the bell housing.....the issue is the 21K youre gonna pay for the LS9 motor.


F

jzchen
09-28-09, 12:36 PM
Thanks for the reply!

Sorry for my ignorance, but is that 21K price difference between the LSA and LS9 only? I was aware that the carbon ceramic brakes are very expensive but the engine cost difference seems a little high. Either way, this is still somewhat reasonable considering the cost of an M5 and E63, or if you want to compare fairly a Dinan stoker engine w/ 600+hp would cost a huge amount more (30K). I remember when we were looking at the STS-V in 2006 that M5s were commanding at least 10K over sticker!!!

But yes I did read in one of the car magazines that the manual transmission is the exact same as that used in the ZR1, so it didn't seem too much of a job to plop in the engine. I also noted that the front wheels for both cars are 19 inch so I didn't think it too much of a reach to try to fit the brakes.

Thanks again.

Florian
09-28-09, 02:04 PM
Thanks for the reply!

Sorry for my ignorance, but is that 21K price difference between the LSA and LS9 only? I was aware that the carbon ceramic brakes are very expensive but the engine cost difference seems a little high. Either way, this is still somewhat reasonable considering the cost of an M5 and E63, or if you want to compare fairly a Dinan stoker engine w/ 600+hp would cost a huge amount more (30K). I remember when we were looking at the STS-V in 2006 that M5s were commanding at least 10K over sticker!!!

But yes I did read in one of the car magazines that the manual transmission is the exact same as that used in the ZR1, so it didn't seem too much of a job to plop in the engine. I also noted that the front wheels for both cars are 19 inch so I didn't think it too much of a reach to try to fit the brakes.

Thanks again.


21K is just the crate LS9...brakes are above and beyond.


F

whisler151
09-28-09, 04:29 PM
Thanks for the reply!

Sorry for my ignorance, but is that 21K price difference between the LSA and LS9 only? I was aware that the carbon ceramic brakes are very expensive but the engine cost difference seems a little high. Either way, this is still somewhat reasonable considering the cost of an M5 and E63, or if you want to compare fairly a Dinan stoker engine w/ 600+hp would cost a huge amount more (30K). I remember when we were looking at the STS-V in 2006 that M5s were commanding at least 10K over sticker!!!

But yes I did read in one of the car magazines that the manual transmission is the exact same as that used in the ZR1, so it didn't seem too much of a job to plop in the engine. I also noted that the front wheels for both cars are 19 inch so I didn't think it too much of a reach to try to fit the brakes.

Thanks again.

I'm sure you could sell your LSA for $10k, so that brings the price down to around $11k for the LS9.

http://www.usmracer.com/Corvette-ZR1-LS9-62L-Supercharged-Crate-Engine--nearly-640HP_p_3507.html

Vrocks
09-28-09, 05:10 PM
The LS9 would push a loaded 2010 to around 82,000 (including tax). The brakes aren't worth it and you could build up the LSA for a few $$$$.

jzchen
09-28-09, 08:00 PM
Hmm,

From the responses seems like I would be on my own or it would have to be done aftermarket. I really don't think my family will go for pulling out the engine of our brand new car! It would have to be something GM would be willing to build and warranty otherwise I couldn't justify the extra cost to the significant other.

I'll let everyone know if I'm able to contact the right person that could make such a decision, and not just those who would just tell me "no," which is what I think I'm getting at the level I've been in contact with.

If everything goes as planned, more specifically when Cadillac updates their website with 2010 info, we should be looking to order one soon, hopefully early this Oct.

Thanks guys for all the responses! Some other boards, (I won't mention any names,) won't entertain questions from Newbies like me. I hope I can be a more contributing member in the future. Right now we just have the '85 in our household.

nradcad
09-28-09, 08:31 PM
I would think the CTS-V brakes are prolly better than the CC of the ZR1. Honestly, I don't think that's a stretch to say.

SlvrBullIT
09-28-09, 08:56 PM
co-cast < Carbon ceramic...... ZR-1 brakes almost can't over heat, hence why the performance super cars use them, vice the lookie loo super cars don't. I'd take CC brakes over co=-cast rotors...N/E day

nradcad
09-28-09, 09:33 PM
It was my understanding that the CTS-V brakes are literally the latest thing that Brembo offers. I mean you prolly aren't gonna stop any better. You are already approaching tire limit anyways. And as far as fade, those CTS-V brakes ain't gonna fade.
In some testing, the Corvette ZR1 and the CTS-V have had the same stopping distance....106 feet. (however, I have found better numbers for the ZR1 (high 90s), but who knows....seems pretty close)

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0910_2009_cadillac_ctsv_jaguar_xfr_comparison/specs.html
http://www.germancarzone.com/corvette/27774-road-track-road-test-2009-chevrolet-corvette-zr1.html

SlvrBullIT
09-29-09, 01:42 AM
At the road course for 40+mins... you will see fade, albeit slight, but it is there. I hate doing a couple of cool down laps before parking the car and hearing the loud pops from the brakes and that deep purplish sheen. I'd still take carbon ceramic, but the co-cast sure are beefy

62Jeff
09-29-09, 08:56 AM
Hmm,

From the responses seems like I would be on my own or it would have to be done aftermarket. I really don't think my family will go for pulling out the engine of our brand new car! It would have to be something GM would be willing to build and warranty otherwise I couldn't justify the extra cost to the significant other.

I'll let everyone know if I'm able to contact the right person that could make such a decision, and not just those who would just tell me "no," which is what I think I'm getting at the level I've been in contact with.

If everything goes as planned, more specifically when Cadillac updates their website with 2010 info, we should be looking to order one soon, hopefully early this Oct.

Thanks guys for all the responses! Some other boards, (I won't mention any names,) won't entertain questions from Newbies like me. I hope I can be a more contributing member in the future. Right now we just have the '85 in our household.

Don't forget about the different computer, the dry sump oiling system, and who knows what other changes would be required.

jzchen
10-08-09, 03:29 AM
I'm sure you could sell your LSA for $10k, so that brings the price down to around $11k for the LS9.

http://www.usmracer.com/Corvette-ZR1-LS9-62L-Supercharged-Crate-Engine--nearly-640HP_p_3507.html

Thanks for the link. I actually found a place that sells both crate engines although they won't ship. paceperformance.com puts the price difference between the two engines at a just over $6000. This is not bad. I wonder how much development money GM would need to connect it to the CTS-V computer. I definitely don't have the means Jay Leno does though. :crying2: It seems he has some project with GM going on...

My family seems ready to pull the trigger on either one available locally or to order one through our local dealer...

jzchen
10-08-09, 12:57 PM
The LS9 would push a loaded 2010 to around 82,000 (including tax). The brakes aren't worth it and you could build up the LSA for a few $$$$.

I'm slow, really slow. Sometimes when I have an argument with my wife I figure out a few days later that she pulled a fast one on me and I get so pissed off!

Were/Are you able to get one? I realized this morning that you seem to be in the know about pricing. Thanks.

I think I was able to find some pricing on some of the brake parts. You are probably right, since I think the rear rotors are like $1610 a piece discounted! Pricing for the other pieces like calipers are above $500 at least as well...

Vrocks
10-08-09, 01:22 PM
I'm slow, really slow. Sometimes when I have an argument with my wife I figure out a few days later that she pulled a fast one on me and I get so pissed off!

Were/Are you able to get one? I realized this morning that you seem to be in the know about pricing. Thanks.

I think I was able to find some pricing on some of the brake parts. You are probably right, since I think the rear rotors are like $1610 a piece discounted! Pricing for the other pieces like calipers are above $500 at least as well...
I think Summit Racing listed the LS9 on their site - they said it was for sale but I don't know if that means "In-Stock" or "We can get one for you". I'd also think your local Caddie or Chevy dealer can order one for you.

As for the brakes from the ZR1... you need to buy temp sensors as well. The rotors or pads are monitored by the car and I believe if a certain temp is reached, it'll recommend servicing i.e. it probably reached the temp threshold because the rotor is too thin. If you bring the car in for new pads: a certified technician is supposed to remove each rotor and weigh it. If the rotor weight is too low, they have to put on new ones... fortunately, they say the rotors on the Z should last the life of the car (100K ?), if it's only exposed to normal driving (no track).

GM-4-LIFE
10-08-09, 02:06 PM
You can wish and hope all you want. GM will not build an LS9 CTS-V or they would have already done it from the start.

I hope that GM will build the Camaro Z28. Now that is one car that will be simply amazing!

SG

CSX
10-08-09, 02:34 PM
You can wish and hope all you want. GM will not build an LS9 CTS-V or they would have already done it from the start.

I hope that GM will build the Camaro Z28. Now that is one car that will be simply amazing!

SG

With the coming of the 600 HP, twin-turbo BMW M5, I wouldn't discount the feasibility of that notion. It would be by and far the easiest way for GM to top the M5 in terms of power output, and since the LS9 is already a certified production motor, I image it would be the cheapest route as well.

Vrocks
10-08-09, 02:48 PM
With the coming of the 600 HP, twin-turbo BMW M5, I wouldn't discount the feasibility of that notion. It would be by and far the easiest way for GM to top the M5 in terms of power output, and since the LS9 is already a certified production motor, I image it would be the cheapest route as well.

I agree. I think there's definitely a market for a low to mid $80K V, with an LS9. That price would be for a loaded V, if you cut out options it would be around $75K to start. The main downside would be the transmission, because I don't think the LS9 is certified with the auto. Not that there's anything wrong with the manual (it would be an incredible car) but sales would be better with an auto option.

liqidvenom
10-08-09, 02:52 PM
With the coming of the 600 HP, twin-turbo BMW M5, I wouldn't discount the feasibility of that notion. It would be by and far the easiest way for GM to top the M5 in terms of power output, and since the LS9 is already a certified production motor, I image it would be the cheapest route as well.

Gm isnt going after BMW on terms of price, which the ls9 cts-v would end up doing. The next cts-v would prob top the M5 not this current one. It takes time to get a motor ready, not to mention the new crash tests and epa/carb testing. also of money for such a small market segment.

neuronbob
10-08-09, 03:32 PM
I don't see how any of this will happen when the performance group has been disbanded. I do not think we will see another trim for the CTS-V anytime soon, if ever. The only reason we are seeing a CTS-V coupe and wagon is because those variants were planned from the start. I'm not being pessimistic, I'm just being realistic. After all, who's going to do the legwork to plan such a beast (and it WOULD be a majestic, powerful beast if it happened! :) )?

Mikevette
10-08-09, 05:01 PM
If they would just add the forged internal motor parts, LS9 heads, 2.3 Eaton SC and external oil sump we would have an LS9 motor. We are just 82 ponies short of the ZR1 638 hp. Know put a tune and some minor upgrades to this engin and we have one bad ass M-5 beater! Put we must push 4300 lb's around all day long!!! I don't kno what the M5 weight is but it can't be any heavier than our V's. The Brembo's are a good quality brake system and proven to be track worthly and proven it's self on the Ring.

Mike P. ;)

Jpjr
10-08-09, 07:01 PM
If they would just add the forged internal motor parts, LS9 heads, 2.3 Eaton SC and external oil sump we would have an LS9 motor. We are just 82 ponies short of the ZR1 638 hp. Know put a tune and some minor upgrades to this engin and we have one bad ass M-5 beater! Put we must push 4300 lb's around all day long!!! I don't kno what the M5 weight is but it can't be any heavier than our V's. The Brembo's are a good quality brake system and proven to be track worthly and proven it's self on the Ring.

Mike P. ;)

Agree you would not want to swap in an LS9 motor. Like said swap out the internals of the LSA with forged goodies and add a twin screw blower. You could probably get 800hp on pump gas and daily drive the thing... way better than LS9.

Also on the brakes, as someone that has worked on lots of 'em, the process of stopping a car is more complicated than just adding bigger brakes. The Corvette can utilize those huge breaks because of the 335 slab of rubber on its wheels. If you added more brake to the Caddy without adding huge tires you are eventually going to lock the wheels and skid/ABS to a stop without improving distance because there is not enough traction.

Then adding more wheel means more rotational mass which would decrease rwhp and disrupt the chassis tune and handling of the car.

I foresee Caddy doing a premium V two years from now with maybe an LS9 + Corvette brakes but I can almost guarantee you that the performance and handling benefits would not come close to justifying the price. It would be for bragging rights only.

concorso
10-08-09, 07:11 PM
I don't see how any of this will happen when the performance group has been disbanded. I do not think we will see another trim for the CTS-V anytime soon, if ever. The only reason we are seeing a CTS-V coupe and wagon is because those variants were planned from the start. I'm not being pessimistic, I'm just being realistic. After all, who's going to do the legwork to plan such a beast (and it WOULD be a majestic, powerful beast if it happened! :) )?HPVO can always be started up again. The press release about closing that division also noted that all the engineers were just moved to other divisions under the GM umbrella. Its also my understanding that the ZR1 wasn't an HPVO vehicle...its possible the same group that tuned it could also tune a new CTS-V...

GM-4-LIFE
10-09-09, 12:09 AM
Keep dreaming guys. This is most likely going to be the last CTS-V GM will ever build. The STS-V is gone, the XLR-V is gone and with the financial position GM is in, they are probably going to focus on smaller cars with smaller engines.

The government has a ton of tax dollars invested in GM and they won't allow R&D costs to be spent on a gas guzzling car like a next generation CTS-V with an LS9, unless a miracle happens on the auto industry in the next year or so. If GM drops an LS9 in a next generation CTS-V, should there be one, it will cost way too much for consumers for GM to turn a profit and like others said, they will have to build an automatic capable of withstanding almost 650 hp and over 600 ft. lbs. of torque. I don't think it will happen.

I think BMW will end up having the last word in the super luxury sports sedan segment when they release their next generation M5 and they know it too.

I know all of us want to see a more powerful next generation CTS-V to beat the next generation M5, including myself, but let's be realistic here. GM isn't exactly in a position to do it. They could have easily built the Camaro Z28 with the LSA engine since they already have the engine and trans since they use it in the CTS-V, but the idea got killed because of everything that has happened in the auto industry in the last year.

SG

verbs
10-09-09, 02:54 AM
I would think the CTS-V brakes are prolly better than the CC of the ZR1. Honestly, I don't think that's a stretch to say.

:suspense::suspense::suspense: I REALLY hope you're not serious, because if you are, this may possibly be the most incorrect post I've ever read on this site. :cookoo:

CSX
10-09-09, 03:01 AM
Keep dreaming guys. This is most likely going to be the last CTS-V GM will ever build. The STS-V is gone, the XLR-V is gone and with the financial position GM is in, they are probably going to focus on smaller cars with smaller engines.

The government has a ton of tax dollars invested in GM and they won't allow R&D costs to be spent on a gas guzzling car like a next generation CTS-V with an LS9, unless a miracle happens on the auto industry in the next year or so. If GM drops an LS9 in a next generation CTS-V, should there be one, it will cost way too much for consumers for GM to turn a profit and like others said, they will have to build an automatic capable of withstanding almost 650 hp and over 600 ft. lbs. of torque. I don't think it will happen.

I think BMW will end up having the last word in the super luxury sports sedan segment when they release their next generation M5 and they know it too.

I know all of us want to see a more powerful next generation CTS-V to beat the next generation M5, including myself, but let's be realistic here. GM isn't exactly in a position to do it. They could have easily built the Camaro Z28 with the LSA engine since they already have the engine and trans since they use it in the CTS-V, but the idea got killed because of everything that has happened in the auto industry in the last year.

SG

Pssst....Mr. Doom and Gloom...there's been a ton of reports in the past several weeks indicating that the Z28 project is on again, but probably not till 2011 or 2012.

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_news/112_0909_chevrolet_camaro_z28_is_go/index.html

http://jalopnik.com/5364503/gm-reportedly-calls-game-on-for-supercharged-550hp-camaro-z28

There's been a CTS-V coupe announced, who knows what other surprises they might roll out with in the coming years. Time will tell, I'm not so sure GM is as dead in the performance world as you might think.

csp3000
10-09-09, 09:54 AM
9-15-09
Nesbitt confirms ATS-V.
Tell Fritz:

Will Cadillac’s upcoming small RWD cars have performance characteristics - steering, braking, chassis dynamics - comparable, even surpassing the BMW 3 series (http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/#). Will there be a V version to compete with the M3? And when can we buy it?



Dear Charles - thanks for your interest in Cadillac. I cannot give you all the details, but the answer to your questions is an enthusiastic yes! Dates are not too distant in the future, but are still not announced.
-Bryan Nesbitt, General Manager, Cadillac
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f21/nesbitt-confirms-ats-v-84133/

Well this seems to say that there will be a V version of the ATS...:worship:

GM-4-LIFE
10-09-09, 04:58 PM
Pssst....Mr. Doom and Gloom...there's been a ton of reports in the past several weeks indicating that the Z28 project is on again, but probably not till 2011 or 2012.

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_news/112_0909_chevrolet_camaro_z28_is_go/index.html

http://jalopnik.com/5364503/gm-reportedly-calls-game-on-for-supercharged-550hp-camaro-z28

There's been a CTS-V coupe announced, who knows what other surprises they might roll out with in the coming years. Time will tell, I'm not so sure GM is as dead in the performance world as you might think.

I guess I will believe it when I see it. Yes, I have read all the reports and such, but everything changes at the drop of a hat with GM these days. We will just have to wait and see. I don't know why they have to wait that long to drop in an engine and transmission they already have into a car. They could turn the Z28 on and build it quickly if they really wanted to.

SG

jzchen
10-10-09, 01:17 AM
Keep dreaming guys. This is most likely going to be the last CTS-V GM will ever build. The STS-V is gone, the XLR-V is gone and with the financial position GM is in, they are probably going to focus on smaller cars with smaller engines.

The government has a ton of tax dollars invested in GM and they won't allow R&D costs to be spent on a gas guzzling car like a next generation CTS-V with an LS9, unless a miracle happens on the auto industry in the next year or so. If GM drops an LS9 in a next generation CTS-V, should there be one, it will cost way too much for consumers for GM to turn a profit and like others said, they will have to build an automatic capable of withstanding almost 650 hp and over 600 ft. lbs. of torque. I don't think it will happen.

I think BMW will end up having the last word in the super luxury sports sedan segment when they release their next generation M5 and they know it too.

I know all of us want to see a more powerful next generation CTS-V to beat the next generation M5, including myself, but let's be realistic here. GM isn't exactly in a position to do it. They could have easily built the Camaro Z28 with the LSA engine since they already have the engine and trans since they use it in the CTS-V, but the idea got killed because of everything that has happened in the auto industry in the last year.

SG

It's all about the money, I agree. But, I also read somewhere that these high performance vehicles make more of a profit for companies than the lesser ones because the cost materials wise to make a V8 vs a V6 is not much more for example. GM needs to build better products than the competition to get sales, not sit around and continue to watch sales decrease. I think Cadillac got the formula right for the V2, a bargain and yet beats the competiton. That is why my family will be getting one soon. Heck, when the STS-V was compared with the E55, (or was it E63 already,) and the M5 I decided that was the car for us because one magazine put it ahead of the Mercedes, and it was cheaper. I just feel a little bothered to know that next year BMW is just going to pass Cadillac by again, but hey, two years ahead of the competition is better than none.

Yes, GM may need smaller engines, maybe along the path BMW has been taking with twin turbos. Have you seen the power curves of the 3.0L tt or the new 4.4L tt? They go up and then flat. They already have the turbos in there that can handle vastly more power than the car is set to output. All a company like Dinan does is goes in and reprograms the DME to spin the turbos at their full potential, add better cooling, and walla, the 3.0L engine can output close to 400hp.

I'm not asking if GM will necessarily build it on their own, but more of would they build one for me. One way GM can fund these sort of projects is by getting funds from people who have the means to dish out money for the extra power, in return for a factory backed warranty for example. I'm afraid I don't have very deep pockets for it, but... I guess another alternative is for a company like D3 to decide to follow the path Dinan has taken and provide a matching warranty to cover the car.

jzchen
10-10-09, 02:17 AM
Agree you would not want to swap in an LS9 motor. Like said swap out the internals of the LSA with forged goodies and add a twin screw blower. You could probably get 800hp on pump gas and daily drive the thing... way better than LS9.

Also on the brakes, as someone that has worked on lots of 'em, the process of stopping a car is more complicated than just adding bigger brakes. The Corvette can utilize those huge breaks because of the 335 slab of rubber on its wheels. If you added more brake to the Caddy without adding huge tires you are eventually going to lock the wheels and skid/ABS to a stop without improving distance because there is not enough traction.

Then adding more wheel means more rotational mass which would decrease rwhp and disrupt the chassis tune and handling of the car.

I foresee Caddy doing a premium V two years from now with maybe an LS9 + Corvette brakes but I can almost guarantee you that the performance and handling benefits would not come close to justifying the price. It would be for bragging rights only.

I'll admit stopping has a lot more to it than bigger discs, ie. proportioning the valves properly for the car, but 335 are on the rear, and 285 is not that far from the 255 on the V. Also, ABS intevention helps you stop faster, not make things worse. The quicker you get to ABS intervention, the quicker you are going to stop. That is why instructions now tell us to press the brake pedal hard and steady, and not pump it like before. Rotational inertia is decreased by the lighter carbon ceramic discs. I'll admit that the calibration may be off, and in some cases big brake kits actually cause poorer stopping performance initially, but please don't confuse the facts. You can't deny that they are better in initial bite, (leverage,) and more resistant to fade.

The V and the ZR1 both have 19inch wheels up front, so the larger carbon ceramic discs may just fit...

62Jeff
10-10-09, 09:13 AM
I'm not asking if GM will necessarily build it on their own, but more of would they build one for me.

No, I don't think they will build one for you.

As we've mentioned, you can't just drop a ZR1 motor in the engine bay and call it "done". There's a dry sump oil system, for which there is no room, ECU mods, and who knows what else.

liqidvenom
10-10-09, 11:13 AM
No, I don't think they will build one for you.

As we've mentioned, you can't just drop a ZR1 motor in the engine bay and call it "done". There's a dry sump oil system, for which there is no room, ECU mods, and who knows what else.

It would also have to get EPA/CARB tested, Crash tested, do normal preproduction cycle testing.... the list goes on. its at least 1-2yrs worth or work and millions of dollars spent.


Keep dreaming guys. This is most likely going to be the last CTS-V GM will ever build. The STS-V is gone, the XLR-V is gone and with the financial position GM is in, they are probably going to focus on smaller cars with smaller engines.

The government has a ton of tax dollars invested in GM and they won't allow R&D costs to be spent on a gas guzzling car like a next generation CTS-V with an LS9, unless a miracle happens on the auto industry in the next year or so. If GM drops an LS9 in a next generation CTS-V, should there be one, it will cost way too much for consumers for GM to turn a profit and like others said, they will have to build an automatic capable of withstanding almost 650 hp and over 600 ft. lbs. of torque. I don't think it will happen.

I think BMW will end up having the last word in the super luxury sports sedan segment when they release their next generation M5 and they know it too.

I know all of us want to see a more powerful next generation CTS-V to beat the next generation M5, including myself, but let's be realistic here. GM isn't exactly in a position to do it. They could have easily built the Camaro Z28 with the LSA engine since they already have the engine and trans since they use it in the CTS-V, but the idea got killed because of everything that has happened in the auto industry in the last year.

SG

you have some of the worst intel I have ever seen. read above what i just said.

GM-4-LIFE
10-10-09, 11:30 AM
It would also have to get EPA/CARB tested, Crash tested, do normal preproduction cycle testing.... the list goes on. its at least 1-2yrs worth or work and millions of dollars spent.



you have some of the worst intel I have ever seen. read above what i just said.

Thanks for your kind words, but GM could have easily done the Camaro Z28 as they could have done everything earlier when they already had the CTS-V powertrain ready to go. They could have done all the testing, EPA, when they were completing the Camaro and Camaro SS. How much more would it have really taken if they had already had everything certified for the CTS-V?

SG

liqidvenom
10-10-09, 12:05 PM
Thanks for your kind words, but GM could have easily done the Camaro Z28 as they could have done everything earlier when they already had the CTS-V powertrain ready to go. They could have done all the testing, EPA, when they were completing the Camaro and Camaro SS. How much more would it have really taken if they had already had everything certified for the CTS-V?

SG
Gm, carb, epa, and the crash test institute ( i forgot their name) have a limited amount of employees).

The Z28 would need at least the following done for it to be road legal.
1) drivetrain testing- the camaro chassis and user experience isnt the same as the cts regardless if they share a similar motor. This requires many many many many miles driven worldwide to test in various conditions, elements and by various types of drivers.
2) Calibration testing- Even though the ecu is done for lsa/ls9, doesnt meant that they would just use the same tune for both the camaro and the cts. things such as how the intake tract is to be routed, exhaust routing, under hood temps, etc all have to be factored in since those effect cold start and emissions. then for the auto vehicles they would need to get the trans tunning done for a vehicle of its weight and driving ability. all of this takes many road miles and data logging and time.
3) crash testing, emissions certs, etc- these not only take time but you have to get a time/date to bring your car to them which is totally up to them. and for crash testing you have to test each motor/ trans combo and every different seat combo you are looking to offer. once again time.
3) press material, dealership material, tech training, z28 specific parts network, etc. this all takes time.
4) and lastly and prob the most important part... they need to put into place a production process to even build a good number of preproduction vehicles. this alone takes some times.


everything would have to be re-done cert wise for this new car. it doesnt happen over night. I would imagine that Gm has prob gotten much of this process started since they had to do this for the v6 and v8 camaro, but still puts this car a decent amount of time away.

GM-4-LIFE
10-10-09, 12:08 PM
Gm, carb, epa, and the crash test institute ( i forgot their name) have a limited amount of employees).

The Z28 would need at least the following done for it to be road legal.
1) drivetrain testing- the camaro chassis and user experience isnt the same as the cts regardless if they share a similar motor. This requires many many many many miles driven worldwide to test in various conditions, elements and by various types of drivers.
2) Calibration testing- Even though the ecu is done for lsa/ls9, doesnt meant that they would just use the same tune for both the camaro and the cts. things such as how the intake tract is to be routed, exhaust routing, under hood temps, etc all have to be factored in since those effect cold start and emissions. then for the auto vehicles they would need to get the trans tunning done for a vehicle of its weight and driving ability. all of this takes many road miles and data logging and time.
3) crash testing, emissions certs, etc- these not only take time but you have to get a time/date to bring your car to them which is totally up to them. and for crash testing you have to test each motor/ trans combo and every different seat combo you are looking to offer. once again time.
3) press material, dealership material, tech training, z28 specific parts network, etc. this all takes time.
4) and lastly and prob the most important part... they need to put into place a production process to even build a good number of preproduction vehicles. this alone takes some times.


everything would have to be re-done cert wise for this new car. it doesnt happen over night. I would imagine that Gm has prob gotten much of this process started since they had to do this for the v6 and v8 camaro, but still puts this car a decent amount of time away.

I sure hope they bring the Z28 out. I am sure they are already underway to release it, but are keeping it under wraps from the public until maybe the Detroit auto show.

SG

jvp
10-10-09, 12:13 PM
I sure hope they bring the Z28 out. I am sure they are already underway to release it, but are keeping it under wraps from the public until maybe the Detroit auto show.

Well, I still have my doubts, but I'd love to be proven wrong. The Z28 was an HPVO project before it was canned. It wasn't something that team Camaro was working on on their own. So we'll see...

jas

poor-sha
10-11-09, 02:48 PM
I'd really like to see someone send their V2 to a company like Katech and have them build it up along the LS9 route. They already do cam swaps, oil squirters, and forged pistons for the LS7. Do all that to an LSA with the LS9 bits, swap out the supercharger, blueprint and balance the motor and see what we get.

As far as the driveline goes, I too would be worried about the auto but mine is an MN6. However, the rest of the driveline (rearend, axles, etc) are unknown to me as far as how much power they can handle.

jvp
10-11-09, 03:28 PM
However, the rest of the driveline (rearend, axles, etc) are unknown to me as far as how much power they can handle.

Without proper cooling, the diff will probably start complaining even after a couple of trips down the 1/4 mile, with lots more torque being spun through it. I'd be very leery of adding much more than what came from the factory without better cooling.

jas

cmicasa
10-11-09, 08:47 PM
I wondered about what Cadillac's intent was gonna be one the M5 gets the boosted TT V8 engine for it's next iteration for sale in 2011. My obvious thought would be that the LSA simply would get boosted to 575-600HP and be done with it. I would think that the LS9 would even be necessary to pull off another 19-44HP. Something like that would cost us about $1000... I couldn't imagine Cadillac would be willing to lose it's crown so soon.

I would have no issue paying if they upped the CTS-V's price.. which I'm almost cerntain they will since the STS-V is finito after 2010. The REGULAR CTS has been moving up in price every year since it debuted in late 2007... and I thought when the V came out it would have surely cost minimum $70K... I was pleasantly surprised... but I would think such a thing would not last for much longer.

J404
10-22-09, 04:04 AM
You want a one of a kind LS9 CTS with ceramics? you'd have to buy at least 5 of them and crash test the other 4 along with many other near impossible tasks. And even if you were willing to do all of that, I don't think GM would take the time to mess with it.

Jpjr
10-22-09, 10:03 AM
I'll admit stopping has a lot more to it than bigger discs, ie. proportioning the valves properly for the car, but 335 are on the rear, and 285 is not that far from the 255 on the V. Also, ABS intevention helps you stop faster, not make things worse. The quicker you get to ABS intervention, the quicker you are going to stop. That is why instructions now tell us to press the brake pedal hard and steady, and not pump it like before. Rotational inertia is decreased by the lighter carbon ceramic discs. I'll admit that the calibration may be off, and in some cases big brake kits actually cause poorer stopping performance initially, but please don't confuse the facts. You can't deny that they are better in initial bite, (leverage,) and more resistant to fade.

The V and the ZR1 both have 19inch wheels up front, so the larger carbon ceramic discs may just fit...


Dude, ABS kicks in because the wheels are locking. It unlocks them to prevent accidents because locked wheels stop turning and slide. It's a safety feature not a performance feature.

If the ABS is kicking in on a dry road, you have maxed out your brake. It's really that simple. If you want to pay thousands more to add ZR1 brakes so you can lock your wheels up sooner, go for it. You aren't going to stop significantly faster, and you heard it from me first.

Also, I'm not denying that the ceramic brake is better for road racing because of better heat dicipation (sp?). So if you are preparing a V2 for road racing then maybe it is worth the money.

Also btw, 335 is an absolutely monstrous tire! Compare one to a 285 or 255 next time you are at the tire store. There is a huge and noticeable difference. Believe me GM is not putting those meats back there for biggest tire bragging rights... they reduce wheel horsepower and increase torque steer which are both bad for racing. The reason they are back there is.... traction.

jzchen
06-07-10, 03:09 AM
You want a one of a kind LS9 CTS with ceramics? you'd have to buy at least 5 of them and crash test the other 4 along with many other near impossible tasks. And even if you were willing to do all of that, I don't think GM would take the time to mess with it.

Well, everyone was right, I couldn't find one. But to those who said the car needs to be crash tested, I quote my window sticker:

"GOVERNMENT SAFETY RATINGS

This vehicle has not been rated by the government for frontal crash, side crash or rollover risk.

Source: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)."

I guess GM can get away without having a car crash tested.

mugatu22
06-07-10, 04:19 AM
Keep dreaming guys. This is most likely going to be the last CTS-V GM will ever build. The STS-V is gone, the XLR-V is gone and with the financial position GM is in, they are probably going to focus on smaller cars with smaller engines.

The government has a ton of tax dollars invested in GM and they won't allow R&D costs to be spent on a gas guzzling car like a next generation CTS-V with an LS9, unless a miracle happens on the auto industry in the next year or so. If GM drops an LS9 in a next generation CTS-V, should there be one, it will cost way too much for consumers for GM to turn a profit and like others said, they will have to build an automatic capable of withstanding almost 650 hp and over 600 ft. lbs. of torque. I don't think it will happen.

I think BMW will end up having the last word in the super luxury sports sedan segment when they release their next generation M5 and they know it too.

I know all of us want to see a more powerful next generation CTS-V to beat the next generation M5, including myself, but let's be realistic here. GM isn't exactly in a position to do it. They could have easily built the Camaro Z28 with the LSA engine since they already have the engine and trans since they use it in the CTS-V, but the idea got killed because of everything that has happened in the auto industry in the last year.

SG

:eek:

:tisk: I mentioned this same take a few weeks ago and everyone freaked out on me. Good luck with this theory on this board, no matter how much common sense it makes.

aceofblitz
06-07-10, 04:21 AM
D3 has brake upgrades for the cadillac, really good ones I believe.
Fastlaneturbo sells the ZR1 supercharger for a reasonable price too.
If you get both, and add some forged pistons + ZR1 cam + ported heads, you would be as close to a ZR1 as possible and it would be much more reasonably priced.

Prof
06-07-10, 08:19 AM
Didn't read all the posts here so if I missed something...excuse me please.

Just seems strange that no one has just pulled the LSA and dropped a crate LS9 into one of our V's....

Some of the posts alluded to the fact that the motor mounts and bell housing are the same...

Is there a reason...???? Seems like a wonderful 10-12k (net) experiment...

Umrswimr
06-07-10, 08:33 AM
D3 has brake upgrades for the cadillac, really good ones I believe.
Fastlaneturbo sells the ZR1 supercharger for a reasonable price too.
If you get both, and add some forged pistons + ZR1 cam + ported heads, you would be as close to a ZR1 as possible and it would be much more reasonably priced.
Will that blower fit under the hood?

haterinc
06-07-10, 09:23 AM
yes do a search for Fastlane... its already been done and i like it!

mugatu22
06-07-10, 04:17 PM
Didn't read all the posts here so if I missed something...excuse me please.

Just seems strange that no one has just pulled the LSA and dropped a crate LS9 into one of our V's....

Some of the posts alluded to the fact that the motor mounts and bell housing are the same...

Is there a reason...???? Seems like a wonderful 10-12k (net) experiment...

$10-$12k net price just for the engine.

?K fabrication costs, the engine doesn't just drop in.

$?k ECU system & programming

$?K transmission upgrades, rebuild, etc.

Sounds like a pile of $$$ for not enough gain.

Prof
06-07-10, 04:35 PM
$10-$12k net price just for the engine.

?K fabrication costs, the engine doesn't just drop in.

$?k ECU system & programming

$?K transmission upgrades, rebuild, etc.

Sounds like a pile of $$$ for not enough gain.

While I do not know about the ECU, the installation of the engine is a relatively small cost. My comment about the engine mounts and bell housing, fitting are meant to obviate the fabrication issues. If the engine mounts and bell housing match as indicated in previous posts, it is just a drop in. I have a feeling that the ECU is a re-flash and not a physical change. Lastly, I doubt that the transmission needs any up grade...I run nearly 700 rwhp through a manual Tremec 6 speed and have had no problems at all.

4DR_ZR1
06-07-10, 07:09 PM
$10-$12k net price just for the engine.
Let me know where you can get a new LS9 crate engine for $10-$12K. I'll order 2.
Most places I've looked list the LS9 in the $23-$24K range.

Of course the LS9 is a dry sump oil system, so you'll need an external oil tank, fabrication, etc........ $$$$$

Prof
06-07-10, 07:13 PM
The term "net" is operative...just to be a little more succinct...net means 10 to 12k after selling the LSA...

I feel like I am dealing with freshmen...and its summer break!!!

haterinc
06-07-10, 09:52 PM
LOL!... Always so much negativity... It can be done, its just not the best bang for the buck when you have Jesse telling you he'll drop a 427 in for a couple K plus trade for the LSA! You also have to realize the zr1 motor is set up to push a car with 1k less pounds or 3 fatties depending on who's car it is lol.

mugatu22
06-08-10, 01:04 AM
Let me know where you can get a new LS9 crate engine for $10-$12K. I'll order 2.
Most places I've looked list the LS9 in the $23-$24K range.


LOL...see below.


The term "net" is operative...just to be a little more succinct...net means 10 to 12k after selling the LSA...

RE: the transmission, I'm talking about the 6L90 auto transmission needing upgrading. W/the proper clutch I wouldn't be surprised if the manual could handle it.

Prof
06-08-10, 01:33 AM
You may be correct...but Fastlane is pushing a stock automatic with huge hp...and so far no problems...let's keep our fingers crossed for him!

mugatu22
06-08-10, 07:02 AM
You may be correct...but Fastlane is pushing a stock automatic with huge hp...and so far no problems...let's keep our fingers crossed for him!

Indeed. I'll be watching closely!

Dr. Design
06-08-10, 04:49 PM
Hello,
The answer in short is yes to both of your questions. Your in Arcadia, you should come down to our facility and you can see some of the other builds we are doing in house that most people don't think is possible.:thumbsup: This however would certainly 100% have to be done aftermarket. You can get a warranty on the LS9, but it would be separated from the vehicle warranty.

Let us know if there any questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Hmm,

From the responses seems like I would be on my own or it would have to be done aftermarket. I really don't think my family will go for pulling out the engine of our brand new car! It would have to be something GM would be willing to build and warranty otherwise I couldn't justify the extra cost to the significant other.

I'll let everyone know if I'm able to contact the right person that could make such a decision, and not just those who would just tell me "no," which is what I think I'm getting at the level I've been in contact with.

If everything goes as planned, more specifically when Cadillac updates their website with 2010 info, we should be looking to order one soon, hopefully early this Oct.

Thanks guys for all the responses! Some other boards, (I won't mention any names,) won't entertain questions from Newbies like me. I hope I can be a more contributing member in the future. Right now we just have the '85 in our household.

Tib Fighter
06-08-10, 07:29 PM
V2 CTS-V has superb brakes from the factory. Anything north of what the car comes with would pretty much be 'bling' factor. More bang for the buck if you were to build the LSA (hypereutectic goodies on the inside like the LS9 and a more aggressive tune).

I'd rather spend money on getting the beast to handle better and produce a little more 'streetable' power. Tq curve is already pretty wicked and the tail can be hard to tame as it is...

GMX322V S/C
06-09-10, 01:06 AM
V2 CTS-V has superb brakes from the factory. Anything north of what the car comes with would pretty much be 'bling' factor. More bang for the buck if you were to build the LSA (hypereutectic goodies on the inside like the LS9 and a more aggressive tune).

I'd rather spend money on getting the beast to handle better and produce a little more 'streetable' power. Tq curve is already pretty wicked and the tail can be hard to tame as it is...

Actually, the LSA has hypereutectic (cast, high silicon content) pistons, while the LS9 has forged ones.

Suaveat69
06-09-10, 01:14 AM
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2584235-halltech-project-ultraleggera-underway.html

ZR-1 brakes on a Z06.

DrumStix
06-09-10, 09:01 AM
LOL!... Always so much negativity... It can be done, its just not the best bang for the buck when you have Jesse telling you he'll drop a 427 in for a couple K plus trade for the LSA! You also have to realize the zr1 motor is set up to push a car with 1k less pounds or 3 fatties depending on who's car it is lol.

How's it setup to push a car 1,000 lbs less or three females in your family? lol Oh, you mean transmission and rear gearing!!:thumbsup:

Umrswimr
06-09-10, 09:10 AM
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2584235-halltech-project-ultraleggera-underway.html

ZR-1 brakes on a Z06.
Wonder how much work it would be to bolt those puppies onto a V?

Not that I have any desire to drop $8600 on new brakes!

jzchen
06-10-10, 07:00 PM
Thanks! I'll try to make it down when I can. It's a little challenge because I have a little 4 yr. old boy that I watch...


Hello,
The answer in short is yes to both of your questions. Your in Arcadia, you should come down to our facility and you can see some of the other builds we are doing in house that most people don't think is possible.:thumbsup: This however would certainly 100% have to be done aftermarket. You can get a warranty on the LS9, but it would be separated from the vehicle warranty.

Let us know if there any questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac