: 300C Daimler News WSJ will STS reflect the same $$



jerseyvette
07-29-04, 01:55 PM
For as "Boxy an Crude" as some are pointing the new Chrysler's to be it is paying off for Chrysler., What I would echo to GM engineering and design is that this shows that people are looking for modern yet traditionally shaped cars. Magnum, Merceses S and 300C all have somewhat of an intimidating and brawny apprearance which is really turning the check writers on. Also I heard another fact that the 300C is the first or second place car with the "shortest time on the dealer lots" as a new car. The true litmus test will be in numbers and profit. I'd like to have one of this forums experts do a numbers breakdown of exactly how many 2005 STS's are sold 6 months after intro (like with the 300C). This will give us all proof of what people really think of the cars's design. Let's congratulate Chrysler for a job well done with 300C :D .

DaimlerChrysler's Profit Surges;
Cordes Is Named Mercedes Head

A WALL STREET JOURNAL ONLINE NEWS ROUNDUP
July 29, 2004 10:04 a.m.

STUTTGART, Germany -- DaimlerChrysler AG Thursday reported a fivefold jump in second-quarter net income, propelled by a sharp turnaround at its Chrysler division in the U.S. and big gains by its commercial-vehicles unit.

DaimlerChrysler said its net income for the second quarter rose to 554 million ($668.1 million), or 55 European cents a share, from 109 million, or 11 cents a share, for the year-earlier quarter. Revenue increased 9%.

The auto maker also said it named Eckhard Cordes as the new head of its key Mercedes Car Group, replacing Juergen Hubbert, who is set to retire in April 2005. But it said operating profit at Mercedes fell 18% to 703 million in the latest quarter.

Revenue rose to 37.1 billion, primarily as a result of higher unit sales at Chrysler and the commercial-vehicles divisions, the company said. It said revenue was hurt by the appreciation of the euro against the U.S. dollar. Adjusted for currency-translation effects, revenue increased 13%.

Chrysler bounced back from last year's terrible second quarter when it posted an operating loss of 948 million. This year it reported a second-quarter operating profit of 516 million as new versions of its Dodge Magnum and Durango, 300C car and new minivans boosted unit sales by 3% to 759,800 vehicles.

DaimlerChrysler said overall unit sales rose 10% to 1.3 million vehicles.

DaimlerChrysler said the gains at Chrysler and commercial vehicles offset the impact of Mitsubishi Motors Corp.'s net loss.

Mr. Cordes, the current head of DaimlerChrysler's commercial vehicles division, will take over as head of the luxury car maker from Oct. 1.

At that time, Mr. Hubbert will move to chair DaimlerChrysler's executive automotive committee, which coordinates product and brand issues across the company.

The Mercedes Car Group manages the Mercedes-Benz, Smart and Maybach brands and is DaimlerChrysler's main breadwinner. In 2003, it accounted for more than 60% of DaimlerChrysler's operating profit.

Mr. Cordes's appointment was widely expected and clears up the uncertainty over Mercedes's future. Wolfgang Bernhard was originally expected to take charge at Mercedes but was abruptly pulled off the job after falling out with union officials.

DaimlerChrysler said Mr. Bernhard is leaving the company immediately. The company said Mr. Bernhard's departure was "by mutual consent." Mr. Bernhard has been in talks with other auto companies, including Volkswagen AG, about taking on an executive position.

Andreas Renschler, who currently manages the Smart brand, will replace Mr. Cordes as head of commercial vehicles. As part of the move, Mr. Renschler was made a member of DaimlerChrysler's management board for a three-year term.

Ulrich Walker, a former executive at DaimlerChrysler's Japanese partner Mitsubishi Motors Corp., will replace Mr. Renschler as the new head of Smart.

Mr. Cordes's appointment comes amid slipping earnings at Mercedes, which is preparing to roll out new models. Second-quarter operating profit, which is due to be reported later Thursday, is seen falling 8% to 791 million.

Mr. Cordes's main job will be to improve profitability at Mercedes-Benz, which has consistently lagged behind its chief rival Bayerische Motoren Werke AG. Seen as a competent manager and experienced turnaround specialist, Mr. Cordes will also need to improve quality at Mercedes, which has fallen sharply in major studies, analysts said.

Write to the Online Journal's editors at newseditors@wsj.com

megeebee
07-29-04, 03:14 PM
What use is a comparison of the sales volumes between cars in different market segments? The 300 ranges from about 25K to 36K. The STS starts at 41K and rises to the lower 60K range.

Brett
07-29-04, 03:23 PM
I'd like to have one of this forums experts do a numbers breakdown of exactly how many 2005 STS's are sold 6 months after intro (like with the 300C). This will give us all proof of what people really think of the cars's design. Let's congratulate Chrysler for a job well done with 300C :D .

your gonna compare sales from a 25k base model to sales of a 41k base model? and somehow use those results to prove that one looks better than the other?

Re-think taking my advice.....STOP starting threads

gothicaleigh
07-29-04, 03:28 PM
I will tell you right now that the 300C will sell more than the STS. They aren't positioned at the same market. This is good. We don't want Cadillac to compete with Chrysler, as that would be taking a step backwards. What Cadillac is targeting is it's sister company, Mercedes. The true gauge of sales will be how well Cadillac sells compared to Mercedes.

Also remember, cars like the 300C would not have existed had Cadillac decided not to go forward with it's Art&Science design philosophy. It is the company that proved hard edges can still work on modern car designs. When Cadillac unveiled the Evoq concept in 1999, many companies saw what the future looked like. When the sales of the CTS turned Cadillac around from a struggling manufacturer into a world player, the other manufacturers took notice and followed suit.

What Chrysler has done with the 300C is amazing and just what America needed. A desirable high-powered RWD sedan. Don't get me wrong, for the price it is an excellent car in 345hp Hemi mode. It is the modern interpretation of cars like the '96 Impala SS. It is what the Mercury Marauder dreams it could be.

But it isn't a true Luxury Sport Sedan. Take a test drive and you will see what I mean.

jerseyvette
07-29-04, 04:58 PM
your gonna compare sales from a 25k base model to sales of a 41k base model? and somehow use those results to prove that one looks better than the other?

Re-think taking my advice.....STOP starting threads

If you block me from making posts it will set a bad image for your site. Forums and Chat Rooms are designed to share all types of stories and for legitimate ones a way to share knowledge and research.

Why do you get offended when I post facts and opinions. Are you only interested in people that want to sell the 2005 STS? I am posting because I find what I read as very interesting. You decide what you want to do and the impression you give to the readers of your site.

Regarding your question on the 300C. First of all the 300 (without a C) is the base model which is absolutely not up to par with the STS in general categories (interior options, wheels, has a V6 etc). The 300C is the car everyone seems to be talking about with a Hemi V8, amazing luxury and ample room for 4 tall people. if you take a car that costs $80K and you sell 2 and make a profit of 40K it is srtill a better investment for a manufacturer than making 10 cars for $20K and making $1800 on each car. Dollar to dollar it would make more sense to sell the two cars for $80K.

The same holds true with STS for 2005. I want a member that has connections to reveal in 6-12 months exactly how the car's sales ramp up. What companies do usually is take mopdels that sell slow and offer incentives or just al out re-tool and replace the line (GM did this with the 2003 Aurora when they dumped the name they dumped the car).

A little fair competition is a good thing you will see in business. I hope you do the right thinga nd continue to let me post as several people out there have commented that thety agree with several of my opinions. :worship:

jerseyvette
07-29-04, 05:13 PM
I will tell you right now that the 300C will sell more than the STS. They aren't positioned at the same market. This is good. We don't want Cadillac to compete with Chrysler, as that would be taking a step backwards. What Cadillac is targeting is it's sister company, Mercedes. The true gauge of sales will be how well Cadillac sells compared to Mercedes.
...

But it isn't a true Luxury Sport Sedan. Take a test drive and you will see what I mean.We agree and disagree:

Here is where we I agree with you:
The 300C is a breath of fresh air for anyone that appreciates a great looking and functional car (so is the CTS, Escalade and XLR). That said I agree that the car has overall many outside of the box design qualities.

Here is where we disagree:
1) The 300C is surely a luxury car. I have driven it and teh support from the seats and the general appointments are very expensive looking, There are a few inexpensive things that make it less posh (such as the green LCD looking lights on the speedu and the imitation wood steering wheel).

Regarding who Cadillac is going after to compete with. it is certainly true that the CTS kicks the butt out of a 3 series including the V-M series match up. Overall it is a superior car. The E Class/ STS competition needs time to see how it pans out, STS does have some advantages because any 8 cylinder German car is super-expensive which works against them. The only place I think Cadillac needs an additional product is in the premium luxury space. This means a large (high speed designed) touring car. When you read owner reviews on S 500's for example people brag of huge amounts of interior space and a great feel over long trips. I think if the Sigma platform can be made for a wider and more elongated car (this may be the next sigma deville?) there will again be a car competing in the large luxury car space from Cadillac. Heck I'll wait around but for now I see S Class and 745Li standing along without any rear contenders in that space.

Let's hope for Cadillac 16! :p

gothicaleigh
07-29-04, 05:38 PM
We agree and disagree:

Here is where we I agree with you:
The 300C is a breath of fresh air for anyone that appreciates a great looking and functional car (so is the CTS, Escalade and XLR). That said I agree that the car has overall many outside of the box design qualities.

Here is where we disagree:
1) The 300C is surely a luxury car. I have driven it and teh support from the seats and the general appointments are very expensive looking, There are a few inexpensive things that make it less posh (such as the green LCD looking lights on the speedu and the imitation wood steering wheel).

Regarding who Cadillac is going after to compete with. it is certainly true that the CTS kicks the butt out of a 3 series including the V-M series match up. Overall it is a superior car. The E Class/ STS competition needs time to see how it pans out, STS does have some advantages because any 8 cylinder German car is super-expensive which works against them. The only place I think Cadillac needs an additional product is in the premium luxury space. This means a large (high speed designed) touring car. When you read owner reviews on S 500's for example people brag of huge amounts of interior space and a great feel over long trips. I think if the Sigma platform can be made for a wider and more elongated car (this may be the next sigma deville?) there will again be a car competing in the large luxury car space from Cadillac. Heck I'll wait around but for now I see S Class and 745Li standing along without any rear contenders in that space.

Let's hope for Cadillac 16! :p

<applauds>

Now you're making sense. :)
I do see the 300 as a lesser car than you do. When I drove it I was impressed that it came out from Chrysler and is leagues ahead of many of GM's offerings recently. However, the total package didn't seem to come together enough in terms of handling, quality, and feel to me to compete with the BMWs, mercedes, and new Cadillacs of the world. It falls just short in comparison, maybe after a few years of tweaking or the release of an upscale version and it will be there. Just not as it is right now.

The STS is not the car you are awaiting. The car you want is the Sigma version of the DeVille that will be released in 2008. Yeah, I know that is a long way off, but I would rather see Cadillac slow down just a bit and fine tune what they have rather than rush the new DeVille to market and make a mess of things when they are so close to becoming the Standard Of The World again...

jerseyvette
07-29-04, 06:05 PM
<applauds>

Now you're making sense. :)
I do see the 300 as a lesser car than you do. When I drove it I was impressed that it came out from Chrysler and is leagues ahead of many of GM's offerings recently. However, the total package didn't seem to come together enough in terms of handling, quality, and feel to me to compete with the BMWs, mercedes, and new Cadillacs of the world. It falls just short in comparison, maybe after a few years of tweaking or the release of an upscale version and it will be there. Just not as it is right now.

The STS is not the car you are awaiting. The car you want is the Sigma version of the DeVille that will be released in 2008. Yeah, I know that is a long way off, but I would rather see Cadillac slow down just a bit and fine tune what they have rather than rush the new DeVille to market and make a mess of things when they are so close to becoming the Standard Of The World again...
We agree! Now you see us NJ folks are not always a pain in the Butt :-)

Regarding rushing to market: This is what (IMO) BMW and Mercedes have been doing as their cars have major quality rpoblems (a guy at my work had a 2002 C320 and said it was an absolute nightmare). The STS/SLS's we have here were continually better in quality and I am proud to say that. It's not even a question that Cadillac's quality leads the world right now!

AMEN WE AGREE!

miscreant
07-30-04, 03:15 PM
First, I'd like to point out to YOU, jerseyvette, before you comment again about you don't want to hear dealers countering your statements.

First, let me say I'm not a saleperson. Two, I've helped several people here buy from their dealer, while have yet to sell a car to anyone myself. Three, I'm not just a Cadillac dealer. I'm a complete autogroup. I'm JUST a Cadillac fan, period.

Lastly, while the 300 is a craze right now, I simply bring a car to the table, and place it face up - PT Cruiser...A Craze when it first came out, and now dead in the water. Our Chrysler store can't give them away, and haven't been able to for over a year. I'll also point out that the availablility of the 300, specifically the 300C is so low now, that demand is higher than supply. I guarantee that the 300 will have major rebates in 1 year.

And again, I think comparing the 300 to the STS is another poor comparison. More people can afford the 300 and 300C, so they are bound to sell more to begin with.

jerseyvette
07-30-04, 05:52 PM
First, I'd like to point out to YOU, jerseyvette, before you comment again about you don't want to hear dealers countering your statements.

First, let me say I'm not a saleperson. Two, I've helped several people here buy from their dealer, while have yet to sell a car to anyone myself. Three, I'm not just a Cadillac dealer. I'm a complete autogroup. I'm JUST a Cadillac fan, period.

Lastly, while the 300 is a craze right now, I simply bring a car to the table, and place it face up - PT Cruiser...A Craze when it first came out, and now dead in the water. Our Chrysler store can't give them away, and haven't been able to for over a year. I'll also point out that the availablility of the 300, specifically the 300C is so low now, that demand is higher than supply. I guarantee that the 300 will have major rebates in 1 year.

And again, I think comparing the 300 to the STS is another poor comparison. More people can afford the 300 and 300C, so they are bound to sell more to begin with.
Regarding my dealer comments, there is nothing wrong with dealers and I respect most of them as professionals. Where I was coming from was that certain members were very "rapt" in enthiuasm around pushing the STS to be a one shoe fits all car for everyone. I am in my 30s and personally prefer the type of car that foremost "looks like something impressive" at a valet or parked outside my club. It also is equally as important to me that it is roomy inside. Here is my dilemma: I want to always drive proudly an American engineered and made luxury car..period. If Cadillac continues to make cars smaller and smaller it hurts people like me because I really like driving Cadillacs and if I do not fit I really get left out of all the fun.

The reason I am such a "Troll" as people like Bret like to say is because I really liek Cadillacs more thananyone else and when GM "designs my type out" of the new cars it actually invokes feelings of resentment toward a brand I grew to appreciate my whole life. This I assure you is a real crappy feeling. My other cars have been Corvettes and when I looked at teh 2003-2004 model year GM did the same thing (from an engineering perspective) and made the rear window hinge bigger with a cover that cut out just about 1/2-3/4" out of the head room. Problem was it was just above where my head sits and I could not fit..I was PISSED OFF at that point as well.

Would I change my height to be 5'7" to 5'10" tall like Cadillac is designing to? No Way! Where is Cadillac's ear for those who no longer fit well into new models (that are loyal clients)? Small cars (and I mean very small) that handle well can be made with considerably roomy interiors (Kia does this for example). Can GM just simply be making design mistakes when they size down the cars? Is it a process or engineering oversight?

With all that aside I just wish I were one of the more "average sized" people that fit in the "new gen" of Cadillac Sedans... :crying2:

Msilva954
07-30-04, 09:54 PM
What ever you guys say..........I still believe that the 300C steals sales from the big wigs......I can name a couple people I know that have pic'd the 300 over the 5 series and even the S class.....wierd but true......people who have no car knowledge none the less.

Brett
07-30-04, 09:56 PM
i think it will steal sales from the big guys in the beginning, but once those guys start seeing their car everywhere, i think they may regret their decision

miscreant
07-30-04, 10:27 PM
What ever you guys say..........I still believe that the 300C steals sales from the big wigs......I can name a couple people I know that have pic'd the 300 over the 5 series and even the S class.....wierd but true......people who have no car knowledge none the less.
I know alot of people that buy cheaper, less cars for the *cool* factor - from talking to our salespeople at the Chrysler store, the 300 is selling based on the *cool* factor just like the PT Cruiser did. Problem is, the *cool* factor doesn't last...

airbalancer
07-31-04, 10:26 AM
Really the 300 should be compared to to the Bonnville.
In Canada the Bonneville SE bases at $34,500 and the GXP base with the Northstar is $46,200
The 300 base $31,500 and the 300C base $44,220
This would be a fair between car of the same price and size


300c GXP
Engine displacement 5.7L 4.6L

Engine horsepower 340hp @ 5,000RPM 275hp @ 5,600RPM

Engine torque 390ft.lbs. @ 4,000RPM 300ft.lbs. @ 4,000RPM

Engine bore x stroke 99.6mm x 90.9mm (3.92" x 3.58") 93.0mm x 84.0mm (3.66" x 3.31")

Compression ratio 9.60 to 1 10.00 to 1

Max. towing capacity when properly equipped 907kg (2,000lbs) 454kg (1,001lbs)

Exterior length 4,999mm (196.8") 5,146mm (202.6")

Exterior body width 1,882mm (74.1") b1,885mm (74.2")

Exterior height 1,483mm (58.4") 1,438mm (56.6")

Wheelbase 3,048mm (120.0") 2,850mm (112.2")

Front legroom 1,061mm (41.8") 1,082mm (42.6")

Rear legroom 1,021mm (40.2") 965mm (38.0")

Front headroom 983mm (38.7") 983mm (38.7")

Rear headroom 965mm (38.0") 947mm (37.3")

Front hiproom 1,450mm (57.1") 1,415mm (55.7")

Rear hiproom 1,419mm (55.9") 1,433mm (56.4")

Front shoulder room 1,508mm (59.4") 1,499mm (59.0")

Rear shoulder room 1,465mm (57.7") 1,483mm (58.4")

Passenger volume 3,018L (106.6 cu.ft.) b2,939L (103.8 cu.ft.)


Campare the # from Autodata and you can see from price point and size the 300 should be compared to the Bonneville andnot CTS and STS.
This is closer to apples to apples

Brett
07-31-04, 12:26 PM
Would I change my height to be 5'7" to 5'10" tall like Cadillac is designing to? No Way! Where is Cadillac's ear for those who no longer fit well into new models (that are loyal clients)?

your like 6'4" right? im 6'10" and owned a Seville for 3 years happily. b4z is 6'9" and now happily owns an SRX, I also fit into my wifes SRX easily. Not to mention the SRX back seat has a huge amount of back seat legroom. the SRX is the only car ive ever owned that i dont have to pull my seat up when someone sits behind me, that includes my LS430.

People on here call you a troll because you post the same thing over and over. WE GET IT!!!!! you dont like the STS, move on.

CoupeDevilleRob
07-31-04, 05:09 PM
If you're going to compare a Cadillac to the 300 it would be the CTS and even that isn't a very good comparo, they appeal to different markets.

I don't understand why you keep complaining about Cadillacs being so cramped. I'm 6'1" and find any one of the current models comfortable. The only car I ever felt really cramped in was an IS 300.

Brett is right, you've made your opinion known, move on to a new one.

ljklaiber
07-31-04, 09:08 PM
300c drives out like a Bad Boy . Styling and interior are not so good.

Push the pedal and it rips.

JMO

davesdeville
08-01-04, 11:14 PM
Lastly, while the 300 is a craze right now, I simply bring a car to the table, and place it face up - PT Cruiser...A Craze when it first came out, and now dead in the water.


I know alot of people that buy cheaper, less cars for the *cool* factor - from talking to our salespeople at the Chrysler store, the 300 is selling based on the *cool* factor just like the PT Cruiser did. Problem is, the *cool* factor doesn't last...

I don't like you comparing the 300/C to the PT Cruiser. They're differant in every single aspect you can think of other than they run on gasoline. The PT Cruiser was cool for awhile, but it was a pretty crappy car. The 300/C is a cool car, and while that may fade, you're still left with a big RWD luxury sedan that's considered by very few to be a crappy car.

miscreant
08-02-04, 02:37 PM
I don't like you comparing the 300/C to the PT Cruiser. They're differant in every single aspect you can think of other than they run on gasoline. The PT Cruiser was cool for awhile, but it was a pretty crappy car. The 300/C is a cool car, and while that may fade, you're still left with a big RWD luxury sedan that's considered by very few to be a crappy car.
We'll see what we'll see. I don't believe the PT has ever been considered a crappy car- yes it had a hard time living with the fact it was a neon at heart, but it was and still proves to be a solid value and very utilitous - the problem is that it's too extreme for mainstream, low buck buyers, and I bet the 300 will fall victim to this as well. People who tend to buy the PT and the 300 are people who want to be different - once the roads fill up, it will lose it's flair. Chrysler has a habit of going overboard sometimes - sometimes too different, which I feel the 300 is. I LIKE the look of the 300, don't get me wrong, but it's one of those looks that quickly fades away when you start to see them on the road.

I believe the 300 to be a *fad* car, something Chrysler is good at putting out...

jerseyvette
08-02-04, 03:10 PM
I don't like you comparing the 300/C to the PT Cruiser. They're differant in every single aspect you can think of other than they run on gasoline. The PT Cruiser was cool for awhile, but it was a pretty crappy car. The 300/C is a cool car, and while that may fade, you're still left with a big RWD luxury sedan that's considered by very few to be a crappy car.

This gets back to what I was stating in other posts. I learned from one of my old bosses that "people's compensation plan dictates their behavior." Since I don't sell any GM products I am objective in some of my 05 STS criticisms. Many people that have responded to my posts have a vested interest in the 05 STS's success (dealers etc) so they disregard any criticisms or negative comments made about the car. I like when people speak up about teh truth which in this case is that the 05 STS (although VERY impressive technologically) is not the shape, size or style of car we expect to wear an STS badge. Would the car be a great mid sized car from GM (like a high end buick) definately! But a replacement for a legendary design? :hide:

Brett
08-02-04, 03:14 PM
Many people that have responded to my posts have a vested interest in the 05 STS's success (dealers etc) so they disregard any criticisms or negative comments made about the car.

How do you define "many"? Miscreant is the only one, and hes not even a salesmen. It's becoming a full time job just pointing out your inaccuracies.

jerseyvette
08-02-04, 03:32 PM
If you're going to compare a Cadillac to the 300 it would be the CTS and even that isn't a very good comparo, they appeal to different markets.
Brett is right, you've made your opinion known, move on to a new one.
I disagree that the 300C and CTS appeal to different markets. The CTS costs more and is smaller and much less intimidating than the 300C. With the exception of the Zebrano wood luzury is at par for both cars IMO.

John Caddy
08-02-04, 03:37 PM
The new RWD 300 is beautiful; shined up it just knocks me out - BUT it's a Chrysler and has low build quality & will have almost no residual once D-C starts opening the floodgates to fleet sales and rental agencies!

I know they're beautiful because I see 2 or 3 driving around town every day (and I live in the sticks) I even saw one covered in vinyl signage for a realtor (yuck!); alternatively, I've seen only 3 other SRXs on the road in the 4 weeks I've owned mine and 2 were while driving to NYC - and that's just the way I like it! It's a thrill to see other Caddies on the road precisely because they're not out in big numbers.

The real measure for me is resale and the Sigma platform is hitting a home run! Here's BusinessWeek on it: "The Auto Leasing Guide, which calculates the value of a car once its three-year lease has expired, estimates that the CTS retains about 47% of its sticker price. That's way up from the residual value on older Cadillacs like the Seville (36%), and is creeping up on the BMW 3 Series (55%). The SRX's residual of 51% is within hailing distance of the Lexus RX 330's 58%." http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_47/b3859101.htm

(By the way, my '99 E320 today is worth less than 20% of original MSRP, D-C sucks for anyone who wants to sell their ar someday.)

300? Built for the showroom.
Sigma Caddy? Built for long term owner smiles!

Thanks:
JC

jerseyvette
08-02-04, 03:39 PM
i think it will steal sales from the big guys in the beginning, but once those guys start seeing their car everywhere, i think they may regret their decision

VW Sold over 1,000,000 Bugs. Everyone still loves the car, end of discussion. :D

Brett
08-02-04, 03:45 PM
different market....guys that buy 20k cars(like bugs) dont care if they see their car everywhere. guys who buy 60k+ cars do. i know i would, I know every friend of mine would.

jerseyvette
08-02-04, 04:02 PM
The new RWD 300 is beautiful; shined up it just knocks me out - BUT it's a Chrysler and has low build quality & will have almost no residual once D-C starts opening the floodgates to fleet sales and rental agencies...]

(By the way, my '99 E320 today is worth less than 20% of original MSRP, D-C sucks for anyone who wants to sell their ar someday.)

300? Built for the showroom.
Sigma Caddy? Built for long term owner smiles!

Thanks:
JC
Let's back up here a bit. I've been driving caddy's since 1990. I actually have 2 myself now (personal cars) and another STS as a company car. I liked the cars for several reasons. First and foremost the cars were built in America and designed in America. Secondly the cars were as you said "low volume " and more exclusive cars. I think we agree that it is great having a caddy that you are proud to drive and when you see another on the road you feel good.

Now back to the 300C. This car should have the 05 STS's designer afraid for his job. It shares many Mercedes components (and drive train as I understand) and is a traditional style. The car looks like a future car with all the wideness and brawn that I like. The STS for 05 also has some features that look great and is futuristic but unfortunately it was designed without a tough look to it. I saw a black 2002-2004 eldorado at the shore yesterday parked in front of a house. I tell you the car just speaks "money" when you see it. It invokes a feeling of "I wonder who the guy with big bucks is that ownes that car." The 300C actually makes me say to myself when I see it (and since I also drove it at a dealer) now here is a person who has bought a great looking and amazingly designed car. 300C does lack the exclusivity of Cadillac but IMO really challenges the Art and Science design theme.

P.S. Look how far apart the rear wheels are on a 300C next time you see one..that car is really wide.

jerseyvette
08-02-04, 04:07 PM
different market....guys that buy 20k cars(like bugs) dont care if they see their car everywhere. guys who buy 60k+ cars do. i know i would, I know every friend of mine would.In Germany taxi cabs are Mercedes E Class and S Class cars. Most of the affluent there still buy the same models. I think Americans are going to demand more roominess and function when they write checks to buy cars in the future. Just my opinion. What i admired most about the 300 was it's rear seat room. You can be 6'5" and sit with your head straight up. No Caddy (except Escalade) can make this claim. IMO we need some shake up in the design department to make teh changes in staff/team necessary to make a roomier car than 300. ;)

Brett
08-02-04, 04:11 PM
In Germany taxi cabs are Mercedes E Class and S Class cars.

not to sound redundant, but......different markets. its been like that in europe all along, it has not been like that here

miscreant
08-02-04, 04:19 PM
..."people's compensation plan dictates their behavior." Since I don't sell any GM products I am objective in some of my 05 STS criticisms.
Should I list my so-called *vested interests* even though my *compensation plan* isn't based on their sales at all?

Audi
Infiniti
Porsche
Cadillac
Buick
Pontiac
Hummer
GMC
Dodge
Chrysler
Jeep
Saturn
Mazda
Nissan

Need I go on? I said *auto group*...Not just Cadillac...Notice Chrysler in there? If anything, my bias comes from being a Cadillac fan, NOT a "dealer"...So let's get over this dealer-complex and move on...

miscreant
08-02-04, 04:23 PM
VW Sold over 1,000,000 Bugs. Everyone still loves the car, end of discussion. :D
80%+ of bug owners are women. Different market. Market surveys show that women tend to not be as concerned with individualilty in their automotive products and actually tend to follow the crowd, where as men (who the 300 and STS are targeted at) tend to seek individuality in their car purchase...

miscreant
08-02-04, 04:33 PM
I think Americans are going to demand more roominess and function when they write checks to buy cars in the future.
Well, I don't think the sTS is devoid of function. But I do believe you are wrong about what most american's demand. The trend is smaller, tighter, driver's vehicles these days. Why do you think that virtually every current manufacturer is down-sizing their current models, while then introducing the new larger models? Why do we see so many Deville owners trading to the CTS?

jerseyvette
08-02-04, 05:57 PM
Well, I don't think the sTS is devoid of function. But I do believe you are wrong about what most american's demand. The trend is smaller, tighter, driver's vehicles these days. Why do you think that virtually every current manufacturer is down-sizing their current models, while then introducing the new larger models? Why do we see so many Deville owners trading to the CTS?Deville Owners trading to the CTS? I don't know any. Is that really the trend? CTS is a GREAT CAR all around which is why everyone that wants to drive a nice luxury car should get one.

I like the following Cadillacs VERY much:
CTS
Escalade
SRX (for front seat)
XLR

Dislike
Deville 2000 and later (I feel the cabin is far to small)
05 STS from everything I have seen in person.

This makes me still a Cadillac fan because I LOVE 4 of the six models! :p

Cuhulin
08-03-04, 05:19 AM
The main problem with the CTS is the lack of leg room in the back seat -- a problem that is fixed with the SRX and at least somewhat better in the STS, although its legroom is apparently less than in the SRX for some reason.

Now, if they would only update the SRX interior with the improvements from the STS!

jerseyvette
08-03-04, 01:19 PM
The main problem with the CTS is the lack of leg room in the back seat -- a problem that is fixed with the SRX and at least somewhat better in the STS, although its legroom is apparently less than in the SRX for some reason.

Now, if they would only update the SRX interior with the improvements from the STS!

Cuhulin,
I think you have struck a cord that needs to be echoed to any GM engineer that reads this. Many people are under the impression that small and compact is a "good thing" for Cadillac moving forward. As I read your post it just dawned on me the danger of being in such a crammed rear seat (like the one in CTS for example in the event of a crash. Your knees would most likely break and you would definately smash your face if you were above 6' tall. I was reading the latest Road and Trach last night and was ABSOLUTELY FLOORED to read that the Infinity G35 Coupe has more front leg room than the 2005 STS! This car is based on the 350Z platform and has more room that the "largest of the sigmas" as written by Road and Track. THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE AND UTTER EMBARRASMENT TO AMERICA that the 2005 STS front compartment has been made so small. Hats off to Japan for respecting American Drivers with the G35 Coupe front leg room. Our engineering lags behind Infinity when they can better understand customer's requirements in the cockpit of a car.

miscreant
08-03-04, 02:31 PM
Cuhulin,
I think you have struck a cord that needs to be echoed to any GM engineer that reads this. Many people are under the impression that small and compact is a "good thing" for Cadillac moving forward. As I read your post it just dawned on me the danger of being in such a crammed rear seat (like the one in CTS for example in the event of a crash. Your knees would most likely break and you would definately smash your face if you were above 6' tall. I was reading the latest Road and Trach last night and was ABSOLUTELY FLOORED to read that the Infinity G35 Coupe has more front leg room than the 2005 STS! This car is based on the 350Z platform and has more room that the "largest of the sigmas" as written by Road and Track. THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE AND UTTER EMBARRASMENT TO AMERICA that the 2005 STS front compartment has been made so small. Hats off to Japan for respecting American Drivers with the G35 Coupe front leg room. Our engineering lags behind Infinity when they can better understand customer's requirements in the cockpit of a car.
It wouldn't be a Tuesday without another weird comparo. Comparing a 4 door to a 2 door coupe in front legroom? - front anything?

Well, in your STS world, the STS clobbers the G35 coupe in rear seat room! It's only slightly smaller in the front, but loads larger in the rear, so overall I think the STS wins - atleast according to your comparison. Hats off to Cadillac for showing those Japanese how to make rear seat room (and add two extra doors to make it even more accessible!)...

OH, PS- The G35 isn't built on the "350Z" platform. The platform is called the FM platform, and just like the Sigma platform, it's not confined to a specific wheelbase or track - hense the 350Z, G35 coupe, G35 sedan, FX35 and FX45 all sharing the same platform...but yet having varying sizes and dimensions...



As I read your post it just dawned on me the danger of being in such a crammed rear seat (like the one in CTS for example in the event of a crash. Your knees would most likely break and you would definately smash your face if you were above 6' tall.
But yet the G35 coupe rear seat is extremely tight...is it front seat or rear seat legroom we're talking about, I forgot... :hmm:

Hope you haven't got off the floor yet from being floored, but the G35 coupe has more room than the E and S class Merc, the Lexus LS 430, The BMW 7 series, even the A8! [noise in background - THUD!]...

Playdrv4me
08-04-04, 07:16 AM
The 300C is a solid value with just the right touch of Luxury. It is no surprise this car has gone out like gangbusters, the problem is, it will take like 20 "300C" type vehicles to get Chrysler out of its slump.

tdogg5184
08-04-04, 01:59 PM
I love infiniti and the G35 but my brothers G35 coupe feels very cramped compared to my STS. Harder for a bigger guy (6'2 250lbs) to get comfortable in that car compared to the STS. I have ridin with hime for a few hours in the G35 on a roadtrip. And how can you compare a 2 door to a 4 door.

jerseyvette
08-04-04, 03:07 PM
It wouldn't be a Tuesday without another weird comparo. Comparing a 4 door to a 2 door coupe in front legroom? - front anything?

Well, in your STS world, the STS clobbers the G35 coupe in rear seat room! It's only slightly ... - THUD!]...

I was being a bit sarcastic as I was so blown away to see that a compact japanese luxury car had more front seat room than a 2005 Cadillac STS. Regardless of rear seat room..I was still baffled by the comparo..

Back to the 300C. I saw two more today and they were both in the powdery blue-silvery type of color..absolutely georgous car. STS for 2005 is absolutely full of technical features that anyone would die for and that is unchallenged. What myself and several other members of this site are really up in arms about is the 2005 STS's overall attractiveness and configuration (meaning specifically apples to apples measurements inside and the way the interior is laid out).

STS for 2005 will probably be an outstanding car technically and in terms of reliability. The one big issue is that as small as this site is (as far as new posters go) many prevois cadillac owners are shying away from the look and design of the car. Why does this matter? I think sales will be very slow (at least on the V8 versions) since people feel less attracted to the car that they have for the previous two models of STS. (Again my firm has two STS's currently of both previuos models). Cadillac should be darn concerned since I am their existing base and they do not have a car that I like. Am I bias now towards the 300C, surely because a brilliant engineer at Chrysler sized the car right. How pissed to I get when I sit in a 2004 Deville and feel crammed in every way..VERY. STS is even smaller...what a JOKE.

jerseyvette
08-04-04, 03:11 PM
The 300C is a solid value with just the right touch of Luxury. It is no surprise this car has gone out like gangbusters, the problem is, it will take like 20 "300C" type vehicles to get Chrysler out of its slump.
When you see the 300C next time notice the tasteful placement of chrome on the rear bumber and around the windows. This car is truly a classic in the making.

Here is an interesting blurb about the Chrysler 300C's designer...amazing engineering happening with this car.

http://www.allpar.com/cars/lx/300.html

Evolving the design seen on the current Chrysler 300M, a four-gauge instrument cluster with chrome rims and a precision appearance are used in the 300C. The center of the instrument panel contains an analog clock, navigation system and heated seat switches. The 160 mph speedometer is probably overkill, though the car can reportedly exceed 150 mph. If you're doing over 140, you're probably not using the speedometer much.

Designer Ralph Gilles said that he had as much liberty as he needed in styling the 300C, asserting that it was as different from the Magnum as it needed to be. He noted that the most important part of the vehicle is the face, which is very different. The rear is, in person, somewhat reminiscent of past Chryslers, most recently the New Yorker (LH version), but before that the Dodge Dynasty and even circa-1970 A-bodies. Like most current Chrysler and Dodge designs, the 300C looks much better in person than in photos.

Mr. Gilles, in an informal conversation, noted that the basic vehicle platform imposed a number of styling restrictions, but that he felt it was very successful and distinctive. He noted that with a more "functional" look - that is, relatively squarish, though he opposed use of that word - the styling can be very challenging. "Imperfection is not an option," in his words. Every aspect of the exterior and interior was carefully thought out to work together as a whole and achieve a look of sporty luxury - the combination that made the original 300 series so successful.

The interior spaciousness is highlighted by a two-tone treatment, which work together to give the Chrysler 300C a sporty, yet opulent feel inside. The rear seats are split 60/40, and fold down for added versatility.

The spaciousness of the Chrysler 300C is enhanced by the more upright windshield pillars and overall profile of the new exterior design, resulting in a seating position that is two-and-a-half inches higher than the current 300M. This design enhances a command-of-the-road feel and aids easy ingress/egress. It may help to attract some potential SUV buyers, as well - and we suspect that's who the basic design proportions are geared to.

CaddyFan2004
08-04-04, 11:40 PM
It wouldn't be a Tuesday without another weird comparo. Comparing a 4 door to a 2 door coupe in front legroom? - front anything?

Well, in your STS world, the STS clobbers the G35 coupe in rear seat room! It's only slightly smaller in the front, but loads larger in the rear, so overall I think the STS wins - atleast according to your comparison. Hats off to Cadillac for showing those Japanese how to make rear seat room (and add two extra doors to make it even more accessible!)...

OH, PS- The G35 isn't built on the "350Z" platform. The platform is called the FM platform, and just like the Sigma platform, it's not confined to a specific wheelbase or track - hense the 350Z, G35 coupe, G35 sedan, FX35 and FX45 all sharing the same platform...but yet having varying sizes and dimensions...


But yet the G35 coupe rear seat is extremely tight...is it front seat or rear seat legroom we're talking about, I forgot... :hmm:

Hope you haven't got off the floor yet from being floored, but the G35 coupe has more room than the E and S class Merc, the Lexus LS 430, The BMW 7 series, even the A8! [noise in background - THUD!]...

This is a great post. Great insight.

Randy_W
08-05-04, 08:56 AM
Designer Ralph Gilles said that he had as much liberty as he needed in styling the 300C, asserting that it was as different from the Magnum as it needed to be. He noted that the most important part of the vehicle is the face, which is very different.

Yes it is, in fact it's a face only a mother could love! It looks like a damned Checker Marathon, all that's missing are the 'Yellow Cab' letters on the doors! You said it had a lot of room inside with extra rear leg room. Now we know why, they used a Checker Marathon airport limo as thier design target. Using this as a guideline, maybe Cadillac should re-invent the shoe box as well! :rolleyes:

PS; What the hell is a bumber? Maybe you meant bummer, as that is likley the feeling you will get at re-sale time with that 300!

jerseyvette
08-05-04, 11:31 AM
Yes it is, in fact it's a face only a mother could love! It looks like a damned Checker Marathon, all that's missing are the 'Yellow Cab' letters on the doors! You said it had a lot of room inside with extra rear leg room. Now we know why, they used a Checker Marathon airport limo as thier design target. Using this as a guideline, maybe Cadillac should re-invent the shoe box as well! :rolleyes:

PS; What the hell is a bumber? Maybe you meant bummer, as that is likley the feeling you will get at re-sale time with that 300!

I'm a die hard GM fan no question about it. However regarding the styling of the 300C I see it as a bold expression of form and more importantly function. Cadillac has had the form thing down pat. Since 1998 the functiomn part of the equation Cadillac has struggled with. There are countless posts in the 05 STS threads that complain about a constant shrinking of what has the potential to be an all around competitive car (the STS). Chrysler takes csome design cues from leadsers in the world in presige auto design (like Bentley and Mercedes). The nose of 300C is also very similar to the new facia Audi is adopting for their cars..again this is not a bad thing.

I like cars that make you say wow when you get up close to them. Maybe it's the german influence but I hope everyone follows suit with the wide, rwd, roomy and bold style of Chrysler 300 C. Has the Cadillac mini-sizing put a damper on the GM enthuiasm derfinately! Has the 300C brought me closer to the German-ized versions of the best designed on our roads for 2004 ..definately as well!

I am definately a huge 300C fan and want to again congratulate the design team who took risks witha bold statement..that is what this is all about! :bouncy:

John Caddy
08-05-04, 11:52 AM
Yes it is, in fact it's a face only a mother could love! It looks like a damned Checker Marathon, all that's missing are the 'Yellow Cab' letters on the doors! You said it had a lot of room inside with extra rear leg room. Now we know why, they used a Checker Marathon airport limo as thier design target. Using this as a guideline, maybe Cadillac should re-invent the shoe box as well!

Excellent post! LMAO!!!!

:2thumbs:

gothicaleigh
08-05-04, 12:02 PM
There are countless posts in the 05 STS threads that complain about a constant shrinking of what has the potential to be an all around competitive car (the STS).

Yeah, I also noticed there are countless posts about that here in the 05 STS forum. 99% of them are made by someone going by the name JerseyVette (whoever that is ;) ).

The 05 STS is no smaller than the 98 SeVille. This has been pointed out to you many times already. As for it being competitive, it is larger than many of the cars in it's segment and has performance that is on par, or exceeds the best of them. This also has been pointed out numerous times.
Do you read any of these replies, or just copy/paste the same argument over and over again to try and cover them up?


Has the Cadillac mini-sizing put a damper on the GM enthuiasm derfinately!


The recent turn around in Cadillac's sales and response from the automotive community has been favorable and does not reflect this statement.

:yawn: <----- me

miscreant
08-05-04, 12:44 PM
Cadillac has had the form thing down pat. Since 1998 the functiomn part of the equation Cadillac has struggled with. There are countless posts in the 05 STS threads that complain about a constant shrinking of what has the potential to be an all around competitive car (the STS).
"Function" is relative. Your definition of function is not Cadillac's definition of function, nor is it the definition of function for the market segment the STS is targeted at - we just need to replace the "S" in STS with a "D". You continuously come back to the STS as being the big flagship sedan of Cadillac. It's not. It's not intended to be.

Can SOMEONE open up a 2006+ and 2008+ Cadillac DTS forum so jerseyvette can post in the correct forum?

Cadillac designed the STS to fit between the E and S class, the 5 Series and 7 series, the A6 and A8...need I go on? It was never designed to be the car you are wanting, period, end of story. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. Why do we KEEP having to revist this?

You feel the STS is a failure because it didn't live up to *your* proposed market fitment - Because it's not a Bentley-eater, or a $200,000 Cadillac 16, or a G35 2 door coupe. By the way, were you aware that the proposed price of the 16 is $200K+? That may be one reason why we don't see alot of "16 content" in these production Cadillacs...

Man, am I about to repeat myself like you...please forgive me, but...

The STS fills a GAP that Cadillac had in the market - the Luxury Sport Sedan in the $40 - $52K market, where probably 90% of STS production cars will fall - the $53K+ cars are those HP versions designed for the people who want everything, but will comprise a small section of sales. The CTS ended at $43K fully loaded, but typically the $36-$38K cars are what sold most - The Deville started at $45K and went to $60+K, with $50K being the standard. So there was a $12K-$14K gap between the Cadillac models. The STS filled that gap. I guarantee that was Cadillac's main motivation for the S-series cars (The SRX and STS - The SRX fills the gap below the Escalade). However, Cadillac's next main motivation was then to make the car competitive. What they did do was give you a car that was E-class priced (and bigger) which approaced the S-class, or 5 series priced (and bigger) which approached the 7 series.

Saying the STS fails at being the big boat cadillac you wanted it to be is like complaining that Jim Thome can't score enough touchdowns. Different game, different goals. How can the STS be a failure for something it was never attempting?

I've cut and pasted this into a word document so that I can just paste it back in here again when needed.

Why not try starting a thread "What the DTS should be" rather than constantly post what the STS isn't...

jerseyvette
08-05-04, 02:22 PM
"Function" is relative. Your definition of function is not Cadillac's definition of function, nor is it the definition of function for the

Why not try starting a thread "What the DTS should be" rather than constantly post what the STS isn't...

Here are the facts:
1) I am a Cadillac Veteran and loyalist.
2) I've been driving Cadillacs since 1990.
3) I have had 2 Devilles, 1 Fleetwood and Sevilles (both SLS and STS)
4) My other car is a GM Corvette (which I am on my 2nd vette)

This makes me probably one of the most Cadillac/GM loyal people on this forum.
Here are the other facts:
1) I am quite crammed in the front and rear seat of Deville(after 2000) and Seville after 1998. I plan to soon take some photos next time I go to a dealer to show this evidence (with the hope GM reads these posts).

2) My taste and opinion is cars does not need to be shared by you or anyone else here. My track record in ownership says it all. I am true to GM even when parts cost as much as imports and even when small things break (like ash trays, buttons, AC compressors etc.). My loyalty has been because I like the performance, size and comfort of the cars. Plus traditional models looked very nice and even a bit intimidating (which I like in a style).

3)As you and many have said "Cadillac is taking a new direction" in car designs. What direction is this? Is it a direction that walks away from the current existing base and what they wanted in cars? I see more and more Town Cars and Chrysler 300C's on the road that I do medium-large Cadillac sedans. Do you truly think that this segment is unimportant? I think that teh traditional Cadillac buyer is going elsewhere when there is no equivalent available to what they are getting rid of (Just my opinion).

4) Large cars (as I have said again, again and again) do not have to be "poor handling yachts" as everyone is trying to use as an excuse for 2005 STS faults. Every premier luxury car maker (Maybach by MB, Bentley, Audi, Rolls, VW etc) have found the engineering resources to offer large and excellently handling vehicles. Why is this not taken seriuosly at GM? Is a car called the "largest sigma" smaller in the front cockpit that a tiny G35 from Infinity? Yes.

Maybe a Cimarron will be the next car to get reintroduced by Cadillac? The modular-ized Sigma platform can surely be modified to make a car the size of a Pontiac Sunfire. Want a tiny car..get into a Kia. I'm still looking for a RWD A8 eater..maybe Deville will deliver in 2008..hope I am not retired by then...

I can still dream ..see the pic below.. Thanks for hearing me out.

Brett
08-05-04, 02:34 PM
Please buy a 300c and go away

jerseyvette
08-05-04, 03:02 PM
Please buy a 300c and go away
300C and XLR would be a nice duo in my driveway!

Brett
08-05-04, 03:11 PM
Excellent :) Case closed....

jerseyvette
08-05-04, 03:39 PM
Excellent :) Case closed....
As painful as it is to walk away from Cadillac as my sedan of choice I am taking your advice(coming from almost 15 years of Cadillac ownership). I'll probaly look at the 300C for my next company car. I'll miss being a Caddy owner though (all because of a few lousy inches in interior cockpit room).
Take care!

megeebee
08-05-04, 05:01 PM
I don't know if anyone has asked quite this directly, but why don't you consider a DTS? It's not a Maybach, but it seems to offer the capacious rear seating you desire. A good freind of mine has one and I love it. It has what I believe to be one of the most comfortable rear seats you can get.

jerseyvette
08-05-04, 05:07 PM
I don't know if anyone has asked quite this directly, but why don't you consider a DTS? It's not a Maybach, but it seems to offer the capacious rear seating you desire. A good freind of mine has one and I love it. It has what I believe to be one of the most comfortable rear seats you can get.

My head hits the roof in teh back seat of a DTS :-(

Any My knees can not clear under the bump protruding under the steering wheel :-( :-( :crying:

It'san engineering thing. Only car I fit nicely in as of late are as follows:
1) Town car (front and rear)
2) S Class (front and rear)
3) Chrysler 300C (front and rear)

I just wish one was a Caddy since I love the brand.

Makes you feel left out.


I just wish

CaddyFan2004
08-06-04, 12:19 AM
I'm a die hard GM fan no question about it. However regarding the styling of the 300C I see it as a bold expression of form and more importantly function. Cadillac has had the form thing down pat. Since 1998 the functiomn part of the equation Cadillac has struggled with. There are countless posts in the 05 STS threads that complain about a constant shrinking of what has the potential to be an all around competitive car (the STS). Chrysler takes csome design cues from leadsers in the world in presige auto design (like Bentley and Mercedes). The nose of 300C is also very similar to the new facia Audi is adopting for their cars..again this is not a bad thing.

I like cars that make you say wow when you get up close to them. Maybe it's the german influence but I hope everyone follows suit with the wide, rwd, roomy and bold style of Chrysler 300 C. Has the Cadillac mini-sizing put a damper on the GM enthuiasm derfinately! Has the 300C brought me closer to the German-ized versions of the best designed on our roads for 2004 ..definately as well!

I am definately a huge 300C fan and want to again congratulate the design team who took risks witha bold statement..that is what this is all about! :bouncy:

Once again I have to point out that you don't know what you're talking about.

You say that Cadillac minisizing has put a damper on GM enthusiasm. Wrong again. Cadillac sales since 2000 are up nearly 35%. That's near the best improvement in the industry. July sales that were just posted were the best sales month since 1990. Cadillac sales were up 32% over last July. CTS sales were 25% higher than last year.

Obviously the market doesn't think the cars are as horiffically undersized and lacking enthusiasm as you do.

ktills45
08-07-04, 10:33 PM
We agree and disagree:

Here is where we I agree with you:
The 300C is a breath of fresh air for anyone that appreciates a great looking and functional car (so is the CTS, Escalade and XLR). That said I agree that the car has overall many outside of the box design qualities.

Here is where we disagree:
1) The 300C is surely a luxury car. I have driven it and teh support from the seats and the general appointments are very expensive looking, There are a few inexpensive things that make it less posh (such as the green LCD looking lights on the speedu and the imitation wood steering wheel).

Regarding who Cadillac is going after to compete with. it is certainly true that the CTS kicks the butt out of a 3 series including the V-M series match up. Overall it is a superior car. The E Class/ STS competition needs time to see how it pans out, STS does have some advantages because any 8 cylinder German car is super-expensive which works against them. The only place I think Cadillac needs an additional product is in the premium luxury space. This means a large (high speed designed) touring car. When you read owner reviews on S 500's for example people brag of huge amounts of interior space and a great feel over long trips. I think if the Sigma platform can be made for a wider and more elongated car (this may be the next sigma deville?) there will again be a car competing in the large luxury car space from Cadillac. Heck I'll wait around but for now I see S Class and 745Li standing along without any rear contenders in that space.

Let's hope for Cadillac 16! :p

Couple of things from my test drive of the 300C.

Very attractive paint schemes. Better then the CTS offerings, imho, very classy.

Engine was a dream. Zero noise and vibration, with a great deal of power. Effortless in motion, more power then you could use safely.

Interior was a complete turnoff. I felt like I was in a minivan. No lux appointments worth looking at. Acres of plastic up front. Literally acres.

Complete absence of feeling when driving the car. Step on the gas and you go real fast, but kinda like so what? No excitement at all.

Overall, a great look, great Chrysler product, but not Lux Sedan.

Playdrv4me
08-08-04, 02:07 PM
When you see the 300C next time notice the tasteful placement of chrome on the rear bumber and around the windows. This car is truly a classic in the making.

Here is an interesting blurb about the Chrysler 300C's designer...amazing engineering happening with this car.

http://www.allpar.com/cars/lx/300.html

Evolving the design seen on the current Chrysler 300M, a four-gauge instrument cluster with chrome rims and a precision appearance are used in the 300C. The center of the instrument panel contains an analog clock, navigation system and heated seat switches. The 160 mph speedometer is probably overkill, though the car can reportedly exceed 150 mph. If you're doing over 140, you're probably not using the speedometer much.

Designer Ralph Gilles said that he had as much liberty as he needed in styling the 300C, asserting that it was as different from the Magnum as it needed to be. He noted that the most important part of the vehicle is the face, which is very different. The rear is, in person, somewhat reminiscent of past Chryslers, most recently the New Yorker (LH version), but before that the Dodge Dynasty and even circa-1970 A-bodies. Like most current Chrysler and Dodge designs, the 300C looks much better in person than in photos.

Mr. Gilles, in an informal conversation, noted that the basic vehicle platform imposed a number of styling restrictions, but that he felt it was very successful and distinctive. He noted that with a more "functional" look - that is, relatively squarish, though he opposed use of that word - the styling can be very challenging. "Imperfection is not an option," in his words. Every aspect of the exterior and interior was carefully thought out to work together as a whole and achieve a look of sporty luxury - the combination that made the original 300 series so successful.

The interior spaciousness is highlighted by a two-tone treatment, which work together to give the Chrysler 300C a sporty, yet opulent feel inside. The rear seats are split 60/40, and fold down for added versatility.

The spaciousness of the Chrysler 300C is enhanced by the more upright windshield pillars and overall profile of the new exterior design, resulting in a seating position that is two-and-a-half inches higher than the current 300M. This design enhances a command-of-the-road feel and aids easy ingress/egress. It may help to attract some potential SUV buyers, as well - and we suspect that's who the basic design proportions are geared to.

This was an excellent article.

I think its simply fair to say that Chrysler had a target of Toyotas and Acuras, but really ended up with not only a Lexus and Cadillac killer, but that rare vehicle that has a multi-demographic appeal. If you throw 22 inch wheels and tint the sh!t out of one of these, it looks mean as hell, and those who like the blingin 'lades and S500's have noticed this, its a popular car in that crowd already. And why not, when you can have the luxury of a 60k import (or domestic :helpless: ) nicely packaged under 38k, you have a winner.

Quite frankly for the Naysayers out there... I dont care to, or need to drive this thing to know that as far as sales are concerned its going to trounce many a contender out there. Why? Because this vehicle has and will continue to simply conquer in one area not usually so clearly seen, and thats marketing. This car is a marketing gem, and because of that, it will get people to the showrooms in droves. The very very conscientious ones, will leave if they dont like the plastic in the interior, or the color of the seats etc.. but most will be finagled into purchasing the thing... and the bottom line is what counts. And thats alright... because the vehicle isnt half bad.

jerseyvette
08-09-04, 12:48 PM
Couple of things from my test drive of the 300C.

Very attractive paint schemes. Better then the CTS offerings, imho, very classy.
...

Overall, a great look, great Chrysler product, but not Lux Sedan.

The Hemi is in another league apart from the V6 inside a CTS or a 32V Northstar IMO. Just a raw and powerful engine. BMW really poineered this with cars like 540i. I personally prefer sporty and hard punching V8s like the hemi or 350 small block found in CTS-V over a smooth purring northstar (I have both now and the small block V8 is a much more powerful engine).

The 300C really speaks for itself, heck you can compare it to a $300K rolls royce and point out inadequacies (in comparison) all day long but WHO CARES the car still is a global player with the Hemi V8.

Re: the test drive. I had a much different experience since I was looking for very specific features and performance attributes.
Here is where I saw leadership/industry standard engineering from Chryselr while driving the 300C:
1) Engine, Engine, Engine: Overall kicks serious tail. With the "auto-stick" feature you can really harness raw and immediate power (which I absolutely love). It is power unseen in any Cadillac I have ever driven (except the CTS V which falls way behind in size utility but wins in HP and acceleration). Hats off here to DaimlerChrysler's engineering team.
2) Overall appointments: It;s no way near the E320 MB interior but this is done on purpose (because the E Class is $60K and this car is $37K). For $23K less in sticker price I'll take a bit less wood on the dash. The clock area was a bit cheap looking and there was (as you mentioned) a lack of expensive materials on the dash. Yes it is a bit plain but still very 2005-ish looking. I liked the leather that is used so i gove it a B+ to an A rating for materials.
3) Size and Space Utility: (we've hit on this before) but I think everyone has to agree that teh 300C has Cadillac beat in roominess and overall comfort design of the cabin. The car was designed from the inside out as compared to cars like Deville that are designed from the outside in (IMO). 300C does not have the 1990s looking protruding dash and the "in your knees" steering and cockpit design that DTS has for example. Rear seats are unargueably better engineered and designed in every way over the current Cadillac (2004)sedans. The ergonomics are there along with ample width, legroom and headroom (A+++ for Daimler Chrysler Here as well).

We all have our favorites and I like the 300C more and more every time I see it. :rolleyes:

CaddyFan2004
08-09-04, 11:42 PM
The Hemi is in another league apart from the V6 inside a CTS or a 32V Northstar IMO. Just a raw and powerful engine. BMW really poineered this with cars like 540i. I personally prefer sporty and hard punching V8s like the hemi or 350 small block found in CTS-V over a smooth purring northstar (I have both now and the small block V8 is a much more powerful engine).

The 300C really speaks for itself, heck you can compare it to a $300K rolls royce and point out inadequacies (in comparison) all day long but WHO CARES the car still is a global player with the Hemi V8.

Re: the test drive. I had a much different experience since I was looking for very specific features and performance attributes.
Here is where I saw leadership/industry standard engineering from Chryselr while driving the 300C:
1) Engine, Engine, Engine: Overall kicks serious tail. With the "auto-stick" feature you can really harness raw and immediate power (which I absolutely love). It is power unseen in any Cadillac I have ever driven (except the CTS V which falls way behind in size utility but wins in HP and acceleration). Hats off here to DaimlerChrysler's engineering team.
2) Overall appointments: It;s no way near the E320 MB interior but this is done on purpose (because the E Class is $60K and this car is $37K). For $23K less in sticker price I'll take a bit less wood on the dash. The clock area was a bit cheap looking and there was (as you mentioned) a lack of expensive materials on the dash. Yes it is a bit plain but still very 2005-ish looking. I liked the leather that is used so i gove it a B+ to an A rating for materials.
3) Size and Space Utility: (we've hit on this before) but I think everyone has to agree that teh 300C has Cadillac beat in roominess and overall comfort design of the cabin. The car was designed from the inside out as compared to cars like Deville that are designed from the outside in (IMO). 300C does not have the 1990s looking protruding dash and the "in your knees" steering and cockpit design that DTS has for example. Rear seats are unargueably better engineered and designed in every way over the current Cadillac (2004)sedans. The ergonomics are there along with ample width, legroom and headroom (A+++ for Daimler Chrysler Here as well).

We all have our favorites and I like the 300C more and more every time I see it. :rolleyes:

Yeah, OK already, go buy a 300C. Make sure you get the extended warranty. I bet you'll need it.

davesdeville
08-10-04, 01:45 AM
Yes it is, in fact it's a face only a mother could love! It looks like a damned Checker Marathon, all that's missing are the 'Yellow Cab' letters on the doors! You said it had a lot of room inside with extra rear leg room. Now we know why, they used a Checker Marathon airport limo as thier design target. Using this as a guideline, maybe Cadillac should re-invent the shoe box as well! :rolleyes:

PS; What the hell is a bumber? Maybe you meant bummer, as that is likley the feeling you will get at re-sale time with that 300!

What are you talking about?

300C (http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/300c2.JPG)
Checker Marathon (http://www.xcelco.on.ca/~swo/Rusling/1980%20Checker%20Marathon.jpg)

I guess they look like very distant relatives, but a Deville (http://www.mileone.com/corp/images/cars/cadillac/2004/stock/deville-mini-04.png)'s grille and bumper look closer to the Checker than the 300s. The only feature the Checker and 300 really look similar with is the headlights.

Some of you are just too hard headed.

jerseyvette
08-10-04, 12:02 PM
Yeah, OK already, go buy a 300C. Make sure you get the extended warranty. I bet you'll need it.7/70 is surely better than a 4/50 !! Ha HA!! :bouncy:

jerseyvette
08-10-04, 12:05 PM
What are you talking about?

300C (http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/300c2.JPG)
Checker Marathon (http://www.xcelco.on.ca/~swo/Rusling/1980%20Checker%20Marathon.jpg)

I guess they look like very distant relatives, but a Deville (http://www.mileone.com/corp/images/cars/cadillac/2004/stock/deville-mini-04.png)'s grille and bumper look closer to the Checker than the 300s. The only feature the Checker and 300 really look similar with is the headlights.

Some of you are just too hard headed.When people sell Caddy's for a living they find every reason to bash any competitor of Caddy's Micro-Ships. Pitiful engineering is leading to the demise of the woprld class Cadillac sedan. I've had them forever and engineering has given me the que to move onto another manufacturer. I'll wait to see what these new Lincoln sedans are like. 300C is also an option since it's engine leads in US made performance. Have a great day! :welcome:

Slick V
08-10-04, 12:12 PM
When people sell Caddy's for a living they find every reason to bash any competitor of Caddy's Micro-Ships. Pitiful engineering is leading to the demise of the woprld class Cadillac sedan. I've had them forever and engineering has given me the que to move onto another manufacturer. I'll wait to see what these new Lincoln sedans are like. 300C is also an option since it's engine leads in US made performance. Have a great day! :welcome:

I always thought the LS- engines lead the US made performance. The old LS1 has more then a hemi, and there going to stop using it by next year. I wont even mention the LS2, LS6, or LS7.

gothicaleigh
08-10-04, 02:48 PM
I am not affiliated with GM in any way(i.e. I do not profit from anything they do).

The new Lincoln sedans on the way have less horsepower than your current Cadillac, much less the new versions. They are also going to be FWD (but in your little world, that's probably a plus, eh?). I predict that even Buick will overtake them soon...

You say that the 'world class Cadillac' is dying. Well, I have news for you, Cadillac hasn't been 'world class' for almost 30 years now. The SeVilles you admit to owning are leagues behind their competition. That may be hard for you to accept, but it's true. The new cars are finally stepping up to the standards that the rest of the world builds cars by. You can voice opinion on what you think of the size, but by all accounts the engineering is improving. Better engineering does not equate to larger size.

The 300C's engine is impressive, make no mistake about that. But it does not lead in 'US made performance', not when the LS6 puts out 55 to 60 more horsepower with the same displacement and achieves better efficiency while doing so (yes, even with it's cylinder shut-off feature, the Hemi drinks more fuel than the aging LS6).
I don't think that I need to even mention the upcoming LS2, LS6, or supercharged Northstars (lets see Chrysler try and match the naturally aspirated Northstar's power with an engine of it's displacement. That's engineering.)

You have made your decision. The 300 is a fine car for it's price. Now quit trying to spread misinformation about the STS.

Oh yeah...
Have a great day.

megeebee
08-10-04, 02:54 PM
I am not affiliated with GM in any way(i.e. I do not profit from anything they do).

The new Lincoln sedans on the way have less horsepower than your current Cadillac, much less the new versions. They are also going to be FWD (but in your little world, that's probably a plus, eh?). I predict that even Buick will overtake them soon...

You say that the 'world class Cadillac' is dying. Well, I have news for you, Cadillac hasn't been 'world class' for almost 30 years now. The SeVilles you admit to owning are leagues behind their competition. That may be hard for you to accept, but it's true. The new cars are finally stepping up to the standards that the rest of the world builds cars by. You can voice opinion on what you think of the size, but by all accounts the engineering is improving. Better engineering does not equate to larger size.

The 300C's engine is impressive, make no mistake about that. But it does not lead in 'US made performance', not when the LS6 puts out 55 to 60 more horsepower with the same displacement and achieves better efficiency while doing so (yes, even with it's cylinder shut-off feature, the Hemi drinks more fuel than the aging LS6).

You have made your decision. The 300 is a fine car for it's price. Now quit trying to spread misinformation about the STS.

Oh yeah...
Have a great day.


...ditto...........

jerseyvette
08-10-04, 03:11 PM
I always thought the LS- engines lead the US made performance. The old LS1 has more then a hemi, and there going to stop using it by next year. I wont even mention the LS2, LS6, or LS7.This is why I mentioned "except the LS in the CTS-V" in my comments.

I alternate day to day Vette to SLS so I can compre the two engines by the day. Northstar is a great engine and is smooth but it is more of a show piece than a real "kick in the pants" performance engine. I like the low end punch of an LT1 or LS1 over that of a Northstar. When CTS-V came out with an LS engine it rocked which I have said over and over.

If You were to put a Hemi on a hoist and put a Northstar next to it I would choose the Hemi to be indstalled in my car over the Northstar simply because it has more HP and torque. Northstar is still agem just short on HP compared to a Hemi. I am still a GM loyalist and would agree that a Hemi would not be nearly as reliable as a GM LS V8. But side to diade against Northstar (VVT or not) I's go with the Hemi.

You know where my preferences are in cabin size (DaimlerChrysler 300C compared head to head with Caddy STS and CTS.)

;)

jerseyvette
08-10-04, 03:20 PM
I always thought the LS- engines lead the US made performance. The old LS1 has more then a hemi, and there going to stop using it by next year. I wont even mention the LS2, LS6, or LS7.

Now this was a car that made a heck of a lot of sense for GM. Great size for what it is and a price that creates value for customers. GM is not jacking prices up on this car to be at par with competitors from europe. Quick, raw and mean..awesome ride!

gothicaleigh
08-10-04, 04:44 PM
Now this was a car that made a heck of a lot of sense for GM. Great size for what it is and a price that creates value for customers. GM is not jacking prices up on this car to be at par with competitors from europe. Quick, raw and mean..awesome ride!

...except no one wants one. They are overpriced and under-designed for what they are. There are dealers who can't sell the GTO to save their life.

Where do you get your information?
It's like you live in Bizarro world or something...

gothicaleigh
08-10-04, 04:48 PM
This is why I mentioned "except the LS in the CTS-V" in my comments.


The post everyone is replying to:

When people sell Caddy's for a living they find every reason to bash any competitor of Caddy's Micro-Ships. Pitiful engineering is leading to the demise of the woprld class Cadillac sedan. I've had them forever and engineering has given me the que to move onto another manufacturer. I'll wait to see what these new Lincoln sedans are like. 300C is also an option since it's engine leads in US made performance. Have a great day!

:hmm: :suspect: :confused:

jerseyvette
08-10-04, 04:52 PM
...except no one wants one. They are overpriced and under-designed for what they are. There are dealers who can't sell the GTO to save their life.

Where do you get your information?
It's like you live in Bizarro world or something...No One every said NJ was small town USA. I just stay up with the times and have a handle on current events and business. This is why I made examples with 300C to wake the management team up at GM. We need a Caddy that competes with 300C in interior space (i.e. rear HEAD room).(And I don't want to hear again and again that Deville is the asnwer).

Re: GTO: IMO you can have nearly as good of looks as CTS V for $15K less (just no Caddy badge). It's a fast car with a wicked sound. If I were to buy a car that was not flashy or incognito sytled I'd get a GTO. I saw a blue one overnthe weekend and I gave the driver a thumbs up and said "nice car". Well deserved. Go GTO 5.7! ;) GTO is a car for people comfortable with a nice high performance car. The owners need not care what peopel think because the performance says it all!

ljklaiber
08-10-04, 06:08 PM
Drove a 300C again today. Sticker was 35K ....nothing else at that price compares if ya want a fast ride. The interior is blahhhh...but the ride is pure adrenalin. Say what ya want. Chrysler just jerked a lot of shorts!!


Cadillac can counter with a NS CTS at that price. I don't think GM will do it.

The 300C is a player .

JMO

CaddyFan2004
08-10-04, 06:48 PM
7/70 is surely better than a 4/50 !! Ha HA!! :bouncy:

By the way, the STS has a 48k/50 bumper to bumper warranty, the 300C has a 36k/36.

But, we've come to expect that about half of what post on here as fact is wrong, so I don't know why this would surprise anybody.

jerseyvette
08-11-04, 10:59 AM
By the way, the STS has a 48k/50 bumper to bumper warranty, the 300C has a 36k/36.

But, we've come to expect that about half of what post on here as fact is wrong, so I don't know why this would surprise anybody.Why get personal. Are you a chat room queer?

jerseyvette
08-11-04, 11:22 AM
Drove a 300C again today. Sticker was 35K ....nothing else at that price compares if ya want a fast ride. The interior is blahhhh...but the ride is pure adrenalin. Say what ya want. Chrysler just jerked a lot of shorts!!


Cadillac can counter with a NS CTS at that price. I don't think GM will do it.

The 300C is a player .

JMO
You and I agree on 300C except for the fact that I like the design of the interior except that it could use some real wood accents. Caddy is lost in many categories now because their target market is in complete transition. The CTS really shoots for 330i type of buyers. The Escalade driver would otherwise get a car like Yukon Denali which is outside of the traditional Cadillac luxury/touring sedan segment. Then you have SRX which again non-traditionally is at attempt by GM to get the Lexus GX, Infinity, Lincoln Aviator type of customer to come over to Caddy. The Deville is really the last player from Cadillac that suits the traditional Cadillac buyer. Where are we now?

STS 2005: Jacked up in price with options to be as expensive as cars made in Germany. Hey, what ever happened to saving money because of a car being made in your homeland? Is the extra $15K you pay in taxes and import fees on a BMW now included on a Cadillac?

Deville: I hope the redesign for 2006 Puts this car at least close to a town car in interior room. Heck I'd rather have a caddy drive me to the airport than a Lincoln!

Escalade: Car kicks ass but I don't like a trucky ride. I'd buy a Chevy pickup if I wanted that ride.

CTS: Great fit for the small- medium car segment. Would I take it over a 330i definately. Does it look as expensive as a Lincoln LS? Probably not. Still a solid car

XLR: No words need describe this engineering masterpiece. The lineage is Corvette and all the niceties are pure Cadillac. Let's hope that pricing does not get over the 80K range next year or else it may a short lived exotic car. Over all a great outside the box car.

Here is a quick analysis the competition IMO:

BMW: 7 Series is nice and very individualistic, avant garde styling and has a faorly large body. 10 rating on intimidation but a 5 on roominess inside (front and rear).

BMW 5: Ugly unless you opt for the 545 in silver which is a lowered looking car. Impressive and again unique. What it has going for it is that the 545 looks like the 745 a bit.

BMW 330i: Too small to even consider a decent car. Honda Civic with a German propeller logo on the hood

Mercedes: S Class super high priced but still ruling the large sedan touring segment. Has quality problems that hurt the image and thought of plunking down 100K for it!

Mercedes E Class: Definately the new darling of the MB product set. I really like this car and it has many appointments that I like such as a dash that is away from you and pushed up towards the winshield. The reason I like this car is beacuse it is a bit stodgy (good thing) yet it is still aero and traditional looking. Caddy walked away completely from traditional styling with the 2005 STS. My feeling sare that STS will have slower sales than anticipated because it walks away from having a traditional stlye, IMO.

Audi: A8 is the vice president of the road in the touring world behind Mercedes S. I recently saw a college board member driveup to a meeting in one and all you could think was "this guy has big bucks". The car has almost everything you could ask for in a sedan. Itl;s very elongated, wide and still very traditional in overall shape..a winner. I am looking for an A8 eater from Caddy but with the current direction of design and car size I don't see it happening. Maybe GM will suprise us all with a large RWD/4WD wide and long sedan soon. COuld be the 2008 Deville...my fingers are crossed!!

Till next time! ;)

ktills45
08-11-04, 09:50 PM
You and I agree on 300C except for the fact that I like the design of the interior except that it could use some real wood accents. Caddy is lost in many categories now because their target market is in complete transition. The CTS really shoots for 330i type of buyers. The Escalade driver would otherwise get a car like Yukon Denali which is outside of the traditional Cadillac luxury/touring sedan segment. Then you have SRX which again non-traditionally is at attempt by GM to get the Lexus GX, Infinity, Lincoln Aviator type of customer to come over to Caddy. The Deville is really the last player from Cadillac that suits the traditional Cadillac buyer. Where are we now?

STS 2005: Jacked up in price with options to be as expensive as cars made in Germany. Hey, what ever happened to saving money because of a car being made in your homeland? Is the extra $15K you pay in taxes and import fees on a BMW now included on a Cadillac?

Deville: I hope the redesign for 2006 Puts this car at least close to a town car in interior room. Heck I'd rather have a caddy drive me to the airport than a Lincoln!

Escalade: Car kicks ass but I don't like a trucky ride. I'd buy a Chevy pickup if I wanted that ride.

CTS: Great fit for the small- medium car segment. Would I take it over a 330i definately. Does it look as expensive as a Lincoln LS? Probably not. Still a solid car

XLR: No words need describe this engineering masterpiece. The lineage is Corvette and all the niceties are pure Cadillac. Let's hope that pricing does not get over the 80K range next year or else it may a short lived exotic car. Over all a great outside the box car.

Here is a quick analysis the competition IMO:

BMW: 7 Series is nice and very individualistic, avant garde styling and has a faorly large body. 10 rating on intimidation but a 5 on roominess inside (front and rear).

BMW 5: Ugly unless you opt for the 545 in silver which is a lowered looking car. Impressive and again unique. What it has going for it is that the 545 looks like the 745 a bit.

BMW 330i: Too small to even consider a decent car. Honda Civic with a German propeller logo on the hood

Mercedes: S Class super high priced but still ruling the large sedan touring segment. Has quality problems that hurt the image and thought of plunking down 100K for it!

Mercedes E Class: Definately the new darling of the MB product set. I really like this car and it has many appointments that I like such as a dash that is away from you and pushed up towards the winshield. The reason I like this car is beacuse it is a bit stodgy (good thing) yet it is still aero and traditional looking. Caddy walked away completely from traditional styling with the 2005 STS. My feeling sare that STS will have slower sales than anticipated because it walks away from having a traditional stlye, IMO.

Audi: A8 is the vice president of the road in the touring world behind Mercedes S. I recently saw a college board member driveup to a meeting in one and all you could think was "this guy has big bucks". The car has almost everything you could ask for in a sedan. Itl;s very elongated, wide and still very traditional in overall shape..a winner. I am looking for an A8 eater from Caddy but with the current direction of design and car size I don't see it happening. Maybe GM will suprise us all with a large RWD/4WD wide and long sedan soon. COuld be the 2008 Deville...my fingers are crossed!!

Till next time! ;)

Nice list !

Any idea why there are so many different cars listed here?

Any idea why there are about 100 more you didn't list?

Cause everyone is different, and has different tastes, different priorities, different needs, different budgets.

Some people love trucks.

Some people love cars.

Some guys with fat butts love big ass cars.

Some people don't.

It just all depends on who you are.

BTW, I just bought a 97 Intrepid as a second car. It's absolutely huge inside. I can make you a good deal on it...

jerseyvette
08-12-04, 10:02 AM
Nice list !

Any idea why there are so many different cars listed here?

Any idea why there are about 100 more you didn't list?

Cause everyone is different, and has different tastes, different priorities, different needs, different budgets.

Some people love trucks.

Some people love cars.

Some guys with fat butts love big ass cars.

Some people don't.

It just all depends on who you are.

BTW, I just bought a 97 Intrepid as a second car. It's absolutely huge inside. I can make you a good deal on it...

I'm still looking for that Caddy to be designed that is the "Audi A8 Eater" in performance, size and dimension! Hopefully it will be worth the wait!

The last Chrysler I had lasted 150K miles (was a college car) and I literally had no problems with it. If your Intrepid is from teh same lineage it is probably a great car.

Saw another 300C this morning WOW is that a great looking car!

megeebee
08-13-04, 04:38 PM
Here's some more fuel for this fire...Automotive News reports today that Chrysler will add a 6.1 litre Hemi making 425 hp in new variants of the 300 in 2005. In 2006 the Magnum and upcoming Charger will also get this low production power plant. The cars will carry the "SRT-8" badge.

jerseyvette
08-13-04, 06:46 PM
Here's some more fuel for this fire...Automotive News reports today that Chrysler will add a 6.1 litre Hemi making 425 hp in new variants of the 300 in 2005. In 2006 the Magnum and upcoming Charger will also get this low production power plant. The cars will carry the "SRT-8" badge.

Powerplant is one thing that anyone can keep swooping up or aftermarket tune to make 1000HP. What really counts is the form factor or spaciousness of the interior that can not be changed (unless a limousene company or fabricator gets ahold of a car). If the STS rear seat is crammed for 2005 the SRT-8 will eat mostly all of teh marketshare of the STS-V if the hemi quote above is true.

Now what were all those comments again about small tight and crammed being a good thing??????????Smaller is in vogue??hmmmmm Not in everyone else's book.

A friend of mine just bought the Dodge SRT10 sport pickup with the Viper motor and it literally created a spectacle at stop signes when I was driving it at the NJ shore earlier this summer. Growling engine sound and a crazy nice shifter & cabin.

You gotta love the German shot of steroids in these Chryslers..! :D I hope Brett does not close this thread too because he doesn't like to hear the truth about the competition.... :bouncy:

Slick V
08-13-04, 07:27 PM
You think its the truth about the compitition, but Cadillac and Chrysler are not in the same class. If you want to compare Cadillac, do it to Chryslers parent company, Mercedes Benz. However, if you want apples to apples, compare Chrysler to Chevy or Ford. :suspect:

CaddyFan2004
08-14-04, 01:27 PM
Why get personal. Are you a chat room queer?

Now who's getting personal?

You like to come off like you know what you're talking about, but you don't. You quote numbers on sales, warranties, interior sizes - and you're consistently wrong. When someone points out to you that you're wrong, you don't say "oh I made a mistake, you're right" - you call them a queer.

Caddy Man
08-14-04, 01:31 PM
DAMN IT THE STS IS NOT MEANT TO BE HUGE!!!!!!! GET IT IN YOUR HEAD! :banghead:

CaddyFan2004
08-14-04, 01:37 PM
Why get personal. Are you a chat room queer?

Now who's getting personal?

You like to come off like you know what you're talking about, but you don't. You quote numbers on sales, warranties, interior sizes - and you're consistently wrong. When someone points out to you that you're wrong, you don't say "oh I made a mistake, you're right" - you call them a queer.

ljklaiber
08-14-04, 02:39 PM
Frankly.I don't care about name calling. I drove the 300c and it is a strong car. Play with wood...OK Play with MB prices...OK! For 35K, the 300C is a buy. JMO....

ktills45
08-15-04, 03:55 PM
Powerplant is one thing that anyone can keep swooping up or aftermarket tune to make 1000HP. What really counts is the form factor or spaciousness of the interior that can not be changed (unless a limousene company or fabricator gets ahold of a car). If the STS rear seat is crammed for 2005 the SRT-8 will eat mostly all of teh marketshare of the STS-V if the hemi quote above is true.

Now what were all those comments again about small tight and crammed being a good thing??????????Smaller is in vogue??hmmmmm Not in everyone else's book.

A friend of mine just bought the Dodge SRT10 sport pickup with the Viper motor and it literally created a spectacle at stop signes when I was driving it at the NJ shore earlier this summer. Growling engine sound and a crazy nice shifter & cabin.

You gotta love the German shot of steroids in these Chryslers..! :D I hope Brett does not close this thread too because he doesn't like to hear the truth about the competition.... :bouncy:


300C is rev limited to 126 mph. Why do you suppose that is? I'll be willing to bet it's not because Chrylser spent alot of money on suspension upgrades to keep it in the same league as the Sigma architecture from GM.

The STS is rated at 154mph. That's a bit higher then the 7 series BMW. I won't speculate what it costs to make a car stable while going that fast, but I'd be willing to bet again that it has nothing to do with the size of the back seat. ;)

jerseyvette
08-16-04, 04:28 PM
300C is rev limited to 126 mph. Why do you suppose that is? I'll be willing to bet it's not because Chrylser spent alot of money on suspension upgrades to keep it in the same league as the Sigma architecture from GM.

The STS is rated at 154mph. That's a bit higher then the 7 series BMW. I won't speculate what it costs to make a car stable while going that fast, but I'd be willing to bet again that it has nothing to do with the size of the back seat. ;)

Many things are getting blurred here so here are my version of the facts:
1) The reason a 300C does not go 160MPH is a market positioning issue. Simply put why would you buy a Mercedes AMG if a 300C was equal in every category? You probably would not, this is probably the only reason why the speed is limited. I'd bet the platform could easily handle a 154 top speed.
2) I think the family/business man buyer would opt for a car with better "space and utility" meaning trunk, width, compartment etc. I think 300C has all these attributs (as I've said a really grerat design)!
3)300C is new and is raelly picking up momentum. I read yesterday in a political/news rag that Daimler Chrysler's CEO (named Dieter) is struggling with competition and that Chrysler's 300C and Durango are outshining the rest of the MB line-up in quality and sales growth.I like the baby bluish-greenish metallic color on the 300C and the chrome accents.

gothicaleigh
08-16-04, 04:43 PM
1) Please tell me you didn't just compare the 300 to an AMG Mercedes...

2) If that is what the 'family/business man buyer' is looking at in a car, wouldn't a van or SUV be a better choice?
We'll see what the SRT-8 is limited to...

jerseyvette
08-16-04, 07:04 PM
1) Please tell me you didn't just compare the 300 to an AMG Mercedes...

2) If that is what the 'family/business man buyer' is looking at in a car, wouldn't a van or SUV be a better choice?
We'll see what the SRT-8 is limited to...
300C 345 HP
S55 AMG 354 HP

Hmmmmmm..Interesting HP/Price ratio for Chrysler 300:

STS 2005: $196 per HP ($63K)
Chrysler 300C HEMI: $101 Per HP ($35K)
Corvette Z06:$130 Per HP ($55K)
Mercedes Benz E55 $171 per HP ($80.2K)

WOW The STS is more expensive per HP than the AMG's!! Hope it has one hell of a ride!

miscreant
08-16-04, 07:09 PM
When people sell Caddy's for a living they find every reason to bash any competitor of Caddy's Micro-Ships. Pitiful engineering is leading to the demise of the woprld class Cadillac sedan. I've had them forever and engineering has given me the que to move onto another manufacturer. I'll wait to see what these new Lincoln sedans are like. 300C is also an option since it's engine leads in US made performance. Have a great day! :welcome:
You're getting rediculous. First, the only person you could possibly be talking about would be *ME* (since noone else posting to your messages has anything close to a vested interested in Cadillac), but I've told you I *DON'T* sell Caddys for a living, and Chrysler sales are just as important for this AUTO GROUP (compromised of Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge stores!)...

But nonetheless, it simply doesn't matter in explanation- as you'll never read this anyway.

I'd invite you to simply head on over to 300Cowners.com or Lincolnowners.com or something of the like, where you'll most likely get a better reception. I'll even put in a good word for you :D

:deadhorse

Brett
08-16-04, 07:11 PM
WOW The STS is more expensive per HP than the AMG's!! Hope it has one hell of a ride!

why would you use the FULLY loaded price of the STS and the base price of the Benz?? to make your point I guess. :rolleyes:

How is it you havent been hired by a political campaign? you can spin just about anything

miscreant
08-16-04, 07:11 PM
300C 345 HP
S55 AMG 354 HP

Hmmmmmm..Interesting HP/Price ratio for Chrysler 300:

STS 2005: $196 per HP ($63K)
Chrysler 300C HEMI: $101 Per HP ($35K)
Corvette Z06:$130 Per HP ($55K)
Mercedes Benz E55 $171 per HP ($80.2K)

WOW The STS is more expensive per HP than the AMG's!! Hope it has one hell of a ride!
Stop using the $63K price as the V8! It's $47k. So that's $146 per HP.

And the comparison of the 300C and the AMG, along with the thought that Chrysler actually would rate the 300C lower in top MPH so that it didn't "dip" into AMG sales (are you actually serious, or just took a hit maybe :drinker ), all shows how rediculous your thought process is.

Brett
08-16-04, 07:12 PM
300C 345 HP
S55 AMG 354 HP

S55 has 493 hp :worship:

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/main.jsp&modelCode=S55

Slick V
08-16-04, 08:56 PM
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse

gothicaleigh
08-16-04, 10:29 PM
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: <---- jerseyvette's threads


:banghead: :banghead: <----- Me.

:bonkers: :bonkers: <----- jerseyvette

miscreant
08-17-04, 01:22 PM
300C is rev limited to 126 mph. Why do you suppose that is? I'll be willing to bet it's not because Chrylser spent alot of money on suspension upgrades to keep it in the same league as the Sigma architecture from GM.

Actually, the 300C is limited to 126mph because of the H speed rated tires. If you opt for the Protection Group II, you get a rev limiter at 115mph because of the T speed rated tires. However, one would still wonder why only H speed rated tires???

miscreant
08-17-04, 03:54 PM
Many things are getting blurred here so here are my version of the facts:...

I think that's the key - your version of the facts...

The jerseyvettian definition of opinions = versions of facts.

Last time I checked, facts didn't have versions...

jerseyvette
08-18-04, 11:58 AM
S55 has 493 hp :worship:

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/main.jsp&modelCode=S55
Mercedes Benz E55 $171 per HP ($80.2K

I was quoting E 55 HP ant S :peeking: 55

jerseyvette
08-18-04, 11:59 AM
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse
I think that's the key - your version of the facts...

The jerseyvettian definition of opinions = versions of facts.

Last time I checked, facts didn't have versions...That Dead horse is funny!!

miscreant
08-18-04, 02:13 PM
Mercedes Benz E55 $171 per HP ($80.2K

I was quoting E 55 HP ant S :peeking: 55
huh?

ktills45
08-18-04, 02:18 PM
Many things are getting blurred here so here are my version of the facts:
1) The reason a 300C does not go 160MPH is a market positioning issue. Simply put why would you buy a Mercedes AMG if a 300C was equal in every category? You probably would not, this is probably the only reason why the speed is limited. I'd bet the platform could easily handle a 154 top speed.
2) I think the family/business man buyer would opt for a car with better "space and utility" meaning trunk, width, compartment etc. I think 300C has all these attributs (as I've said a really grerat design)!
3)300C is new and is raelly picking up momentum. I read yesterday in a political/news rag that Daimler Chrysler's CEO (named Dieter) is struggling with competition and that Chrysler's 300C and Durango are outshining the rest of the MB line-up in quality and sales growth.I like the baby bluish-greenish metallic color on the 300C and the chrome accents.


I'll confess to two things.

I really like the style of the 300C.

I enjoy this thread because of the absurdity of the premise.

I am extremely doubtful that MB is worried about the 300C dipping into AMG sales. I doubt AMG sales are that high to begin with, and if MB was worried at all, they certainly wouldn't be marketing the 300C with a V8.

JV, you like the car, congratulations. However, your thought process is bordering on lunacy at this point to support a position you staked out that was not really well thought out. The 300C is a very nice car, and if you enjoy it as much as you go on about it, get one. You'll be happy. Come back and tell us all how great it is in 5 years.

GERMEEZY1
08-22-04, 03:35 PM
The 300C is a nice car but you have to understand its a volume car their will be no 200 hp/ plastic wheel cover/ stripped STS's. And lets not even talk about the cars being compared. They are not being compared to a 5 series BMW are they? Then why compare them to the STS. People please get facts before you talk. I read all the European magazines unlike the US magazines they like calling cars crap. They tear apart cars that are not quite their dynamically. And they hate US cars....they call our cars luxo-barges. They ripped the old STS a new one. But Autocar magazine said we wanted the new STS to be crap but for the 1st time their is a car that not only is close but is better than the E-class and the 5 Series and the A6. They liked the 300C but they gave it not near the compliments they gave the STS. Cadillac makes true world class cars and they sell more cars over $42,000 then anyone in the U.S...and yes that means Lexus/MB/ AUDI. I like the 300C don't get me wrong but compare apples to apples please. Also lets not forget the CTS recently beat cars a class up from it and finished #1 against cars like the 530/A6/E320.