: Ways to increase performance?



Skiller.
09-13-09, 10:48 PM
What are some ways to increase engine performance as well as prolonging the life of the Northstar engine? I like to treat my car to as many jewels as I do my girlfriend :cool:

Possibly a Corsa exhaust?

Ranger
09-13-09, 11:01 PM
This has been discussed AKA beaten to death, many times. There is precious little you can do. GM did it all for you.

Just maintain it. Change the oil and coolant when or before you are supposed to.

97EldoCoupe
09-13-09, 11:10 PM
Ranger's right. GM did a great job. But for us hard-headed, overly stubborn lead foots,

I received the reground camshafts from CHRFAB now. I'm crazy enough to install them without being able to tune the PCM just to see the results. I'm expecting a bit of a choppy idle, a very mild one, but I just don't know how she's going to run. I don't know if I'll be able to improve the power any but I'm going to give it a shot. I'll post the results when I get it done.

Ranger
09-13-09, 11:18 PM
Or you could add Oxytane to your fuel. :histeric:

Skiller.
09-13-09, 11:54 PM
Hahaha, no thanks!

I'll just replace my current FRAM air filter with a K&N air filter.

Edahall
09-14-09, 12:09 AM
Hahaha, no thanks!

I'll just replace my current FRAM air filter with a K&N air filter.


Sorry to say, but the K&N air filter will do more harm than good. There will be no increase in power and it'll let more dirt into your engine which will greatly increase wear.

Skiller.
09-14-09, 12:26 AM
Really? Wow, I've never heard of that.. So I'm guessing with the increased air flow comes the increased dirt flow?

Ranger
09-14-09, 12:32 AM
Yup. Do a search. It's been discussed and tests have been run to show that they pass more dirt. That said, the Northstar air filter is not restrictive at all. You won't get any increase in performance even if you run NO air filter.

Skiller.
09-14-09, 12:34 AM
Ah! Good to know!

Submariner409
09-14-09, 09:27 AM
Google "knize family oil filter study" and get to Russel Knize' Minimopar site. (It's NOT a Mopar site......) and wade through his work on what's in, who makes, and what they look like oil filters. Very enlightening.

Next time you're in a parts store, take a look at the construction and media area (pleat count) in several brands of panel air filter for your car.

I personally like WIX products, but that's like engine oils: everyone has their favorite.

K&N markets quite a line of products, expensive, well built, BUT I would be very leery of using an oiled panel filter in your intake system with the problems of vapor contamination of the Mass AirFlow (MAF) sensor. When you oil a filter, a little is good, more is better, right ? And you can buy a lot of paper filters for the price of one K&N, regardless of how their skewed advertising prices 1,000,000 miles of filters. Snake oil again.

AJxtcman
09-14-09, 08:41 PM
Lets see
You can change gear ratio. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Change the Cams. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Change the injectors. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
CAI. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Port the heads. That gives you nothin
Corsa. Hmmmm
Remove BTM (Brake Torque Management) Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Reset the Stoich for E10. This is a huge gain. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Change the PE delay. Need the PCM recalibrated for that

Lets see. Nothin with out me and I am to tiered to do it any more.

I tried to give out some info, but I haven't heard back

Submariner409
09-14-09, 10:45 PM
:sneaky: AJ, you dirtball: you know too much..................!!

"Tired, turkey, tired !

GizmoQ
09-15-09, 03:24 AM
Lets see
You can change gear ratio. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Change the Cams. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Change the injectors. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
CAI. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Port the heads. That gives you nothin
Corsa. Hmmmm
Remove BTM (Brake Torque Management) Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Reset the Stoich for E10. This is a huge gain. Need the PCM recalibrated for that
Change the PE delay. Need the PCM recalibrated for that

Lets see. Nothin with out me and I am to tiered to do it any more.

I tried to give out some info, but I haven't heard back

Tired my ass, wait till you see what I got for you to work on!!!

codewize
09-15-09, 10:18 AM
According to tests performed around here there is no increased air flow. The factory and most other panel filters already flow far more air than the N* can swallow so there's no point.

If it didn't look so cool I'd take my Volant box off and put the factory intake back on but it's really a clean look and less under hood clutter with the Volant.

The Volant intake and Corsa exhaust are both GM approved and will not void any warranties or anything like that.

AJ; I'm willing to listen and I will put some faith in the Corsa, I dropped .2 sec off my ET compared to a previous run. Some of that may be me, the car or whatever but after the Corsa went on I ran the best times yet.

Do I need to get a new PCM from you calibrated with the most recent knowledge? Talk to me, call me if you have to. I want 14's damn it.


Really? Wow, I've never heard of that.. So I'm guessing with the increased air flow comes the increased dirt flow?

ponyboyt
09-15-09, 10:33 AM
actualy ive wondered a bit myself about the stock filter/breather since i've had a good look at it. Seems the intake air passes right over and through the PCM box. Just how hot does that PCM shell get? Does it heat the intake air? is it supposed to heat the air? I always thought cold air was a good thing?

STSS
09-15-09, 10:38 AM
It is done to cool the PCM... I would rather have a cool PCM than slightly cooler intake air.

Submariner409
09-15-09, 10:53 AM
The airbox passes some air over the PCM for normal cooling. It does not get that hot. The air intake system is already a perfectly adequate cold air intake. If you want to get creative, remove the PCM and airbox and open the intake hole itself, fabricate an aluminum spigot for 3" or 4" duct and run it down to a point just behind the lower grille.

The later (2000+) setup has a large hole in the inner fender metal right next to the side of the airbox. Take a look and see if you can Dremel a good-sized hole in the side of the airbox and use cut foam to gasket it to the fenderwell hole - that leads to outside air also.

FYI, a ScanGauge (www.scangauge.com) will show you, right now, that your intake air temperatures run about 6 to 15 degrees higher than ambient on the highway and much higher in traffic. NO cold air intake will supply "cold" air in traffic - too little airflow and too high underhood temperatures under those conditions. Consider that normal operation intake air 10 degrees over ambient might be 95 degrees. Supercharged or turbocharged air temps hit over 200 degrees. Don't sweat it.

GizmoQ
09-15-09, 12:05 PM
I was testing a new OBDII Software last week on my CarPC and my IAT varied at highway speeds from 92 down to 86 degrees while ambient air was 80 degrees. (I have OEM intake with widened intake hole below PCM). So yeah, stock intake is plenty good!

Ranger
09-15-09, 12:43 PM
I was testing a new OBDII Software last week on my CarPC and my IAT varied at highway speeds from 92 down to 86 degrees while ambient air was 80 degrees. (I have OEM intake with widened intake hole below PCM). So yeah, stock intake is plenty good!
So the PCM is increasing the intake temperature by 6 - 12 degrees? That puppy must be getting pretty hot.

jedhead
09-15-09, 02:05 PM
Maybe an intake horn can help flow air into the airbox.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/264082/fullsize/dsc_0046.jpg

Bob

Submariner409
09-15-09, 07:02 PM
That pic is a sort of twisted view of a way to get the (in some models) U-shaped cold air inlet tube from behind the headlight assembly down into the lower grille area. ...........and the "out the side of the airbox" hole works too.

Due to radiator & a/c condenser airflow the inlet air tube will always be heated a few degrees above ambient. Simple physics, but 8 to 16 degrees over ambient, STOCK, is not the power robber that ads and hype make it out to be.........................

GizmoQ
09-15-09, 10:37 PM
So the PCM is increasing the intake temperature by 6 - 12 degrees? That puppy must be getting pretty hot.

Hell the engine temp is over 200 so under the hoods gotta be at least 180. The air intake is thin plastic that's soaked in there. The PCM increase of the IAT is probably imperceptible in that furnace. And I've swapped PCMs during dyno runs and it doesn't get that warm.

codewize
09-15-09, 10:48 PM
I've also swapped PCM's during track runs and it doesn't get that hot. The screws on the cover we're a hell of a lot hotter than the PCM.

Now, on this cool air vs hot air thing. I totally understand the logic and it very much holds true with most cars, however, does the air intake temp really make a difference with so many electronic controls? Isn't this really an old school carburetor thing?

I'm thinking that if the intake air it 100 deg the PCM will account for that and provide the proper fuel for maximum performance and efficiency. The IAT sensor and the MAF sensor I'm thinking air temp becomes of very nominal issue.

Am I wrong?

Ranger
09-15-09, 11:21 PM
Probably doesn't make all THAT much difference.

Ranger
09-15-09, 11:24 PM
Hell the engine temp is over 200 so under the hoods gotta be at least 180. The air intake is thin plastic that's soaked in there. The PCM increase of the IAT is probably imperceptible in that furnace. And I've swapped PCMs during dyno runs and it doesn't get that warm.
Can't help but wonder how much air flow through the radiator helps at highway speeds. Have you compared thtose temps with temps at low speed or idle? It would be interesting to see.

Submariner409
09-15-09, 11:34 PM
I would hazard a guess that depending on idling time, road speed, ambient temperature, engine temperature, and who-knows-what-else underhood temperatures swing all over the place. Just watching IAT from city to Interstate proves that. This summer on a 90 degree day, same trip, I saw IAT go up to 165 in traffic and down to 97 on the highway within 15 minutes. Airflow is the trick.

Ranger
09-16-09, 12:31 AM
WOW! That's a hell of a swing. How are you monitoring it Sub?

GizmoQ
09-16-09, 02:31 AM
WOW! That's a hell of a swing. How are you monitoring it Sub?

Yeah, my temp swings are comparable. That's why my fender vents are functional! Which is probably why my IAT gets lower than yours at highway speeds.

Ranger, I monitor mine real-time via OBDII ELMScan 5 to my CarPC.

Submariner409
09-16-09, 09:54 AM
I installed a ScanGauge (www.scangauge.com) above the driver's visor and have it set to monitor IAT (degrees F), TPS (%), IGN (degrees advance), and ECT (degrees F).

The thing will monitor any 4 of 12 programmed gauges and you can program it to sense 4 or 8 other functions, as well as do code scans/clears, and it is also a comprehensive real time fuel calculator. It plugs into the OBD-II port with a 6-foot cable.

You can set the background lighting to one of 8 colors and 2 intensities.

For $169, shipped, it's a deal. Made in Phoenix by a bunch of gearheads.

deepthinker22
09-16-09, 06:54 PM
I've started to disregaurd this forum for good ideas to performance mods.
GM still has major flaws, and if it was such a good job, how come all these little 2.0L engines are destroying this v8 in HP
Biggest problem is the programing, the best performance mods you can do right now are remaping the fuel tables. To do this, find a good performance shop with a dyno. Powerlabs ( a diesal shop) I belive can do some GMs. A tuned stock northstar with headers and CAI can make easily 350 hp. I have now seen one make 395. This tune sacrifices the longevity of the engine, and required maintinence goes up. i.e. change oil ever 3k mi. don't let it overheat etc. Also you can no longer burn regular fuel. You MUST use premium, and I would recomend running a 5w-30 with 20% oil stabilizer

I've seen shops provide custom camshaft grinding srvices for as little as $500 per camshaft.

You can lighten up your crankshaft (HUGE boost)

You can mod the air intake to be more noisy, but more efficient.

You can put in a larger MAF

You can put on lightweight rims.

CHEAP AND EASY and AWSOME
Purchase an exhaust cutout and have it installed. You can do it right after the cat (remove the middle resonater) and you are going to get more hp than the corsa. Unfortuantly you also get drone

Hard but can be done
Carborate and supercharge (requires hole in hood)

Turbo charge (its a custom job but you can still do it)


The main thing that complicates anything you can do, is the requirement of custom parts. B/c most cadillac owners are not as interested in moding like say DSM owners.
Another complication is that the older engines when you go to pull the heads, the threads come out. Big problem. If you do pull your heads plan on upgrading this and putting serts in to allow for future repair and modification.
Also if you pull the crank and such, you can't easily replace bearings.
If you pull the pistons instead of plateu honing (like GM does) make sure you make your cylinder walls as smooth as possible. This will actually help your oil consumptio, again however good luck finding new piston rings, and dont even THINK about boring this thing out.

Advantages of building this engine up. You still build rediculous power out of this relativly short and lightweight v8.
Right now I'm busy with things and I'm out of state. But when I get back and if I aquire a different car, I may just pull this engine to screw around with it.

Submariner409
09-16-09, 07:45 PM
What FWD Northstar vehicle are you installing headers on ?? How do we do it ?? Who makes them ?? Do you go to dedicated duals or a 3" pipe to the Y ??
What does the larger MAF accomplish other than set mixture codes ?? Who does, and has done, Northstar crankshaft lightening, and where does the weight loss come from ?? (and, if you grind the throws, what offsets the loss of dynamic balance ??). Here's a loaded question: How large a carburetor (cfm) would you run on a 280 cubic inch engine ?? Mechanical or vacuum secondaries ?? and just what would be the advantage over the present multiport fuel injection system ??

I know, lots of sticky questions and no good answers, but nothing that hasn't been explored or discussed at great length in here over the past 6 years as pertains to a FWD daily driver. Heck, there are Northstars in '32 Ford 3-window coupes. We're talking Seville/Deville/Eldorado.

codewize
09-16-09, 08:47 PM
If someone made headers for the N* we'd all have them. The only air flow restriction in the N* system is the crossover pipe.

The intake can flow plenty of cool air and the exhaust can handle every bit of it. The only holdup in the whole scenario is the crossover, and if it was at all physically possible to change that, we would.

Grinding new cams isn't going to do anything without some PCM work and we all know where that gets us. I don't know for sure because I've never done the research but I'm willing to bet there not much room in there for any additional lift.

I don't think a larger MAF does anything. Maybe a MAF with different calibrations or something but size has nothing to do with it.

Show me a N* that makes 350 HP in a street car, I want proof. We all know the N* can be modded to hell in a race car but that's not what we're after here. We're after out Deville / Seville with more performance.

2kiddad
09-18-09, 02:03 AM
Our friend, deepthinker22, doesn't appear to know too much about real street N* motors installed in real street Cadillacs.

97EldoCoupe
09-18-09, 03:16 AM
I've got the custom ground cams. I have yet to install them and see the difference but they're in my shop now. My Caddy still has no 4th gear but in a drag race who needs it. She's still running strong. I half-assed timed myself today on the road where my shop is on. I know I passed that 1/4 mile mark when I saw 11 seconds on the stopwatch. You know what that means? Exactly! I hit the start button too late!

I want to get a base run of the car, as it is, bone stock. The drag strip is hosting Performance Unlimited's "Run what you Brung" tomorrow night. If I can get off work on time I'll make a pass in my '98 STS and see what it does. Then do a few mods including swapping the cams and see if there's any difference. If I get to the track tomorrow I'll post the times.

Codewise, something can be done with that flattened pipe, but it's extremely labor intensive and tricky. I just bought a black on black '99 STS that I might eventually use for a testing car.

ponyboyt
09-25-09, 04:33 AM
My Caddy still has no 4th gear but in a drag race who needs it.


I almost have a tranny to offer but mine has been scaring me for 2 days now :):)

97EldoCoupe
09-25-09, 06:55 AM
Thanks Ponyboy, but I have a 98STS parts car with a good trans, and possibly soon I'll have a 99 parts car also with a good trans. I'll have to check some sources but I read that there are minor differences in the 97-98 transmissions.

lbwd
09-29-09, 11:13 PM
I know I passed that 1/4 mile mark when I saw 11 seconds on the stopwatch. You know what that means? Exactly! I hit the start button too late!

Nice.

AJxtcman
09-29-09, 11:33 PM
This is what you can do today on your own.

Purchase 2 wide-band O2 sensors and modules that have a Narrow band output.
Set the switching AFR down to 14.1 to 1
Next purchase a programable DBX MAF sensor.
Dail in the low end of the MAF xfer with the fuel trims and the top end you can adjust to the desired AFR.

I can think of a lot of things I would rather spend $1200 + on

codewize
09-30-09, 03:31 PM
AJ, please elaborate. What does that do for us? Please send me a PM in layman's terms. Can I shave the .3 of my ET?


This is what you can do today on your own.

Purchase 2 wide-band O2 sensors and modules that have a Narrow band output.
Set the switching AFR down to 14.1 to 1
Next purchase a programable DBX MAF sensor.
Dail in the low end of the MAF xfer with the fuel trims and the top end you can adjust to the desired AFR.

I can think of a lot of things I would rather spend $1200 + on

Submariner409
09-30-09, 05:09 PM
I may be wrong, but AJ may be steering toward a separate, adjustable drivetrain management system.

codewize
10-01-09, 01:44 AM
Well, I'm on vaca starting tomorrow until Oct 10th so I probably wont' be posting.

See you all when I get back.