: Isolator Issue



nradcad
09-07-09, 01:21 AM
Just watched the waitforme youtube vid on the 2.55 pulley install and Jesse mentioned that the isolator's spring causes premature shaft wear. This seems to be a major concern. Who has done what about this?

SlvrBullIT
09-07-09, 01:46 AM
Other than the solid torsional isolator........ nadda

nradcad
09-07-09, 01:59 AM
So you installed that? Is there any official word from GM on this?

SlvrBullIT
09-07-09, 03:02 AM
I haven't, but sure as the sun comes up they won't like it.

nradcad
09-07-09, 10:50 AM
Is everyone's car prone to this type of wear? Or is there some underlining tolerance issue such that some cars will have problems and others won't. How serious is the issue that Jesse's video talks about?

SlvrBullIT
09-07-09, 11:02 AM
I think everyone will have this issue, since the wear is going to happen the worse on start up and rapid throttle changes.

wait4me
09-07-09, 11:24 AM
EVERY car i have pulled apart has had MAJOR wear on the main shaft. I have even Seen one BROKEN stock one. The rear spring popped out of place on the stock one and was dragging around the back.

GM-4-LIFE
09-07-09, 01:34 PM
GM is going to have to do something about this when there are reported failure after failure. This should be a GM recall.

SG

nradcad
09-07-09, 03:27 PM
if you stay off the boost, is that shaft still working hard?

wait4me
09-07-09, 07:34 PM
Yes, it is Always being used and moving back and forth. Every time you let off the gas and accellerate.

MReiland
09-07-09, 07:39 PM
I will post the issue on one of the internal forums to see if I get any response there, for the short term Nic, your car is covered for the next 5 years on the powertrain so before then it will be fixed if it really is a problem. Not saying it isn't, but GM has test mules with way more miles on them than any owner out there that get torn down and should have shown this to be an issue. Things still get by, especially if a part has a late change or a vendor making the part has a change in their process.

qictrk
09-08-09, 02:07 AM
I just finished replaceing the isolator today along with the larger 9.5 pulley. My car only has 3K miles on it, and the isolator shaft had some very bad wear. I'm going to take out the car tomorrow and do some testing on my new pulley and tune. As far as the shaft, i didn't want it to break and have the dealer looking around, but by the look of it, i don't think it could have gone another 3K. Cecil............

asabase
09-08-09, 10:21 AM
Are you sure wear would continue? I'd think it would wear to a point and then stop since the torsion spring doesn't wind up that much. Just enough initially to cause some shaft wear. It looks bad, but once the shaft is worn down a bit, the spring no longer makes contact.

nynd
09-08-09, 12:29 PM
SOME INFO FROM AN ONLINE SOURCE:

Rotary blowers of the type to which the present invention relates (e.g., either Roots-type or screw compressor type) are also referred to as “superchargers,” because they are used to effectively supercharge the intake side of the engine. Typically, the input to an engine supercharger is a pulley and belt drive arrangement that is configured and sized such that, at any given engine speed, the amount of air being transferred into the intake manifold is greater than the instantaneous displacement of the engine, thus increasing the air pressure within the intake manifold, and increasing the power density of the engine.

Rotary blowers of either the Roots-type or the screw compressor type are characterized by the potential to generate noise. For example, Roots-type blower noise may be classified as either of two types. The first is solid borne noise caused by rotation of timing gears and rotor shaft bearings subjected to fluctuating loads (the periodic firing pulses of the engine). The noise, which may be produced by the meshed teeth of the timing gears during unloaded (non-supercharging), low-speed operation is also referred to as “gear rattle.” The second type of noise is fluid borne noise caused by fluid flow characteristics, such as rapid changes in the velocity of the fluid (i.e., the air being transferred by the supercharger). The present invention is concerned primarily with the solid borne noise caused by the meshing of the timing gears.

To minimize solid borne noise, torsion damping mechanisms (e.g., “isolators”) have been developed, which can minimize the “bounce” of the timing gears during times of relatively low speed operation, when the blower rotors are not “under load.” Such torsion damping mechanisms are also referred to as “isolators” because part of their function is to isolate the timing gears from the speed and torque fluctuations of the input to the supercharger. A torsion damping mechanism or torsional isolator may have the opportunity to create a noise referred to as clunk. Clunk noise is generated when the negative input torque exceeds the isolator's negative torque capacity. The clunk noise includes the noise generated by impacts within the mechanical components of the isolator and the impact of the timing gear teeth to each other.

Seeing as a similar setup is in the ZR1 - this site sells what looks like the same hard block isolator:

http://www.corvettepartsblog.com/new-corvette-parts/c6-corvette-zr1-supercharger-pulley/

nradcad
09-09-09, 12:17 AM
Not real happy about thinking my car has an issue that I'm just waiting to fail so I can have resolved. I hope there is data for GM to support a recall and a proper fix.

GM-4-LIFE
09-09-09, 01:00 AM
My car has almost 8,000 miles on it. I wonder how much longer until mine breaks.

If/when there is a failure, what happens to the engine, shaft and supercharger itself? Are they all damaged beyond repair and do they all have to be replaced?

SG

wait4me
09-09-09, 09:35 AM
When it breaks, worse case senario they will just have to replace the rotor packs and the front snout. It wont throw anything into the engine.

GM-4-LIFE
09-10-09, 12:15 AM
When it breaks, worse case senario they will just have to replace the rotor packs and the front snout. It wont throw anything into the engine.

Jes,

Let's hope GM issues a recall that makes them upgrade the isolator.

I am sure the wear on my shaft is terrible right now.

SG

nynd
09-10-09, 12:52 AM
If this same isolator is in the ZR1, I wouldn't worry too much right now about it. GM would have seen something in durability testing.. must have!

GM-4-LIFE
09-10-09, 01:45 AM
If this same isolator is in the ZR1, I wouldn't worry too much right now about it. GM would have seen something in durability testing.. must have!

You would think they would have seen this issue and the wheel clicking issue and any other issue during their extensive testing, but they still don't have a fix for the wheel clicking issue. They have been working on it for awhile now (supposedly) and no fix.

SG

600+V
09-10-09, 03:47 PM
the clicking noise sucks no fix at all they just changed the break pads it went away but they said it' be back

marcw
09-12-09, 02:10 AM
I replaced mine with w4m's fix at about 1500mi and was not too happy about what i saw when I got in there...bad wear on the shaft and a bunch of metal dust in there that I had to clean up!

It's not a horribly difficult job. I took my time and did it myself in about 2 hrs one evening. dont bitch to GM, just fix it and be done with it...peace of mind. No car is 100% perfect. The V is as close as it gets!

nradcad
09-12-09, 02:23 AM
I replaced mine with w4m's fix at about 1500mi and was not too happy about what i saw when I got in there...bad wear on the shaft and a bunch of metal dust in there that I had to clean up!

It's not a horribly difficult job. I took my time and did it myself in about 2 hrs one evening. dont bitch to GM, just fix it and be done with it...peace of mind. No car is 100% perfect. The V is as close as it gets!

Y'all say to do this, but if the dealer has to go in the there for some reason and sees what we did, are they gonna cry warranty void?

ducatidesmo
09-12-09, 05:00 AM
From what I understand, They won't go into the pulley as it's a non servicable part. if there is something wrong with most any part of the supercharger, they replace the entire supercharger.

Please correct if I'm wrong.

Gary Wells
09-12-09, 08:35 AM
It is doubtful that either GM or the supercharger manufacturer is going to eat the cost of a complete supercharger over the cost of a $200 *blower pulley*. What the dealer is probably going to tell you is: "Yes, I hear that, but according to GM that is normal and nothing to worry about. Claim denied". So far, GM won't even own up to the wheel clicking issue, do you really believe that they are going to scrap a supercharger?

nradcad
09-12-09, 02:44 PM
All this makes me uneasy with my recent brand swap. In 8 years of driving BMWs, I never had 1 related engine issue. Not 1. And I drove the piss out of those cars. Track them, drag them, you name it.

Gary Wells
09-12-09, 03:23 PM
It is doubtful that either GM or the supercharger manufacturer is going to eat the cost of a complete supercharger over the cost of a $200 *blower pulley*. What the *dealer* is probably going to tell you is: "Yes, I hear that, but according to GM that is normal and nothing to worry about. Claim denied". So far, GM won't even own up to the wheel clicking issue, do you really believe that they are going to scrap a supercharger?


Oops, my bad. The opinions, and that is all they are, are mine and possibly mine alone, and I had no intention of disrupting or torpedoing the natural continuity of this thread, but I can't help comment on this. If I have an issue with this, and I am sure that I am going to, I will give GM an opportunity to correct this through a authorized *GM Cadillac* dealer, but I am very doubtful of the outcome and my satisfaction. After some of the threads that I have read on here, I am actually afraid to trust any dealer with my car. However, I am no quitter, and I love my car enough that I will support my new 300 mile '09 CTS-V with my own money, and a performance speciality shop with a mechanic that I know and trust, and I will go from there. You can't tell me that GM really can't find the issue with the wheel clicking, they just can't afford to support it's necessary rework / solution. It's a simple matter of paying to support these cars when we shouldn't have to. Sorry for the rant, especially on someone else's thread.

RogersV
09-12-09, 03:33 PM
I replaced mine with w4m's fix at about 1500mi and was not too happy about what i saw when I got in there...bad wear on the shaft and a bunch of metal dust in there that I had to clean up!

It's not a horribly difficult job. I took my time and did it myself in about 2 hrs one evening. dont bitch to GM, just fix it and be done with it...peace of mind. No car is 100% perfect. The V is as close as it gets!

What parts are needed, the cost, and does the parts come with detailed instructions? TIA.

nynd
09-12-09, 04:23 PM
Oops, my bad. The opinions, and that is all they are, are mine and possibly mine alone, and I had no intention of disrupting or torpedoing the natural continuity of this thread, but I can't help comment on this. If I have an issue with this, and I am sure that I am going to, I will give GM an opportunity to correct this through a authorized *GM Cadillac* dealer, but I am very doubtful of the outcome and my satisfaction. After some of the threads that I have read on here, I am actually afraid to trust any dealer with my car. However, I am no quitter, and I love my car enough that I will support my new 300 mile '09 CTS-V with my own money, and a performance speciality shop with a mechanic that I know and trust, and I will go from there. You can't tell me that GM really can't find the issue with the wheel clicking, they just can't afford to support it's necessary rework / solution. It's a simple matter of paying to support these cars when we shouldn't have to. Sorry for the rant, especially on someone else's thread.


Well said Gary.We paid for warranty coverage so lets see how far she goes and what becomes of this. To me, a simple block would be a cheaper solution as opposed to this assembly with the springs in it. Hence, there must be a reason for this design so we'll give GM the benefit of the doubt for a while.

MReiland
09-12-09, 04:34 PM
I still have high hopes that I will find the right person to look into this, I have posted it on the internal website that allows us to send questions in to key people at the company. After some looking on the web, the isolator may have been designed by eaton itself (They list patents for Supercharger Isolation Couplers to limit the vibrations from engine pulses)so there may be a reason it is there instead of a solid block? I don't know. Stay tuned for a bit longer before anyone gets too crazy.

nradcad
09-12-09, 04:54 PM
No one's gonna get crazy. (face shake with tongue out an cheek wiggling), It's just anytime you through down 70 large on a car, you expect the engine not to have issues 1500 miles into it. I would figure the ZR1 has been out long enough with the same basic supercharger that there should be people already looking into a recall, I would hope.

MReiland
09-12-09, 06:38 PM
No arguments from me, it's a lot of dough and I would expect it to run for well over the 100,000 mile powertrain warranty mark without issue if it was mine. If there is a problem, :suspect: there will be a fix and it will get put in.

aco
09-12-09, 06:58 PM
It appears that Lingenfelter has the same/similar solid isolator for the ZR1, but I can't find any complaints/issues for the ZR1 on the net. There are many high priced vehicles that have "character" traits and they are usually chalked up to "that is what makes this a (fill in the blank with high priced auto here)". Let's assume that the supercharger will not fail for the life of the powertrain warranty, does noise constitute a defect?

nynd
09-12-09, 07:46 PM
It appears that Lingenfelter has the same/similar solid isolator for the ZR1, but I can't find any complaints/issues for the ZR1 on the net. There are many high priced vehicles that have "character" traits and they are usually chalked up to "that is what makes this a (fill in the blank with high priced auto here)". Let's assume that the supercharger will not fail for the life of the powertrain warranty, does noise constitute a defect?

Simple answer.. NO. As a baseline, it all depends if the powertrain engineers felt that it is "noticeable" and "unacceptable" to the driver. Most likely, the noise was both noticeable and acceptable. All you can do is wait and if there is any bulletins released on the matter, the dealer will follow whatever the prescribed action is if anything. But as Matt has mentioned above, we do have a 100,000 mile warranty, so why tempt to the dealer to VOID it by messing about.

Gary Wells
09-12-09, 08:47 PM
Simple answer.. NO. As a baseline, it all depends if the powertrain engineers felt that it is "noticeable" and "unacceptable" to the driver. Most likely, the noise was both noticeable and acceptable. All you can do is wait and if there is any bulletins released on the matter, the dealer will follow whatever the prescribed action is if anything. But as Matt has mentioned above, we do have a 100,000 mile warranty, so why tempt to the dealer to VOID it by messing about.
NYND:
I know that we are basically on the same side of the fence here, but might see things somewhat differently. If I may be allowed to disagree somewhat:
If the noise wasn't unacceptable to most CTS-V owners, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Most have at least showed concern about breakage, and others have complained about the noise.
The engineer gets his paycheck from GM, he does not own the car, and he does not have to listen to the racket or concern himself about the car breaking down and having to be towed.
Enough people have showed concern about this issue that GM should have at least by now acknowledged that they are looking into the complaints.
I actually am afraid to take my car to a GM Authorized Cadillac dealer, and that is not the way that it should be either. I will take mine to a well recommended Corvette speciality high performance shop, have it fixed at my expense, and then voice my dissatisfaction with GM to everybody that will listen. Same regarding the clicking wheel issue. Hopefully I will not have any problems down the road as this car ages. I love the car, I just don't like the way that I feel GM is selling us down the road. This is a great car, and maybe one of the last ones that we will see down the road as the gas mileage requirements become reality. I was seriously considering getting an extended GM warranty, but now I see that it would be fruitless. If they can't or won't fix the damn thing now, they sure as hell can't or won't fix it later.
I am getting ready to take the Cad out for an evening cruise show and I am really looking forward to the drive. I just think that GM has sold us down the road, and so have a lot of dealers. Sorry for the long whining, but I feel better now.

nynd
09-12-09, 08:59 PM
Hey Gary,
I do agree with you and your points, and each owner is entitled to do as they please. I haven't heard the marbles yet but most like will soon - LOL! The process is usually there is someone in GM who is monitoring warranty and when they see a spike in "customer issues" they are suppose to get off their rear and start investigating. My point was if we all do our own fix, they will never see this concern reported by the customer and hence, never do anything about it - if they can. Now, not sure how many issues of this have been reported to dealers or how big of a real problem it is. If it is the same component used in prior superchargers, you would think there would be some history regarding its durability. I guess the question is - Is this a new component for 2009 model year and if so, how many vehicles utilize it and what is the fallout? This is obviously tough data to gather from us, but someone in GM or who works with GM must have this information. In all honestly, when it starts to bother me, I will most likely make a complaint and then replace it on my own as well - so we sort of are in the same boat! I'd just rather them do something about it as its a costly vehicle which should ideally be solid as far as powertrain components.

MReiland
09-12-09, 09:09 PM
Remember, you guys here are only a small subset of the V Owners out there, the owners manual doesn't say "Make sure to sign up at CadillacForums.com as soon as you get home..." So far I don't know of anyone with a supercharger failure in their V. Jesse found this issue while doing upgrades and selling a replacement part to put in place of the isolator. These is exactly a 0% chance that the isolator will ruin the supercharger on a stock V and GM will fail to fix the engine under warranty. (With less than 5yr/100k) I just fail to see how so far GM has sold any of you down the road yet until someone posts here to say that they had a failure and GM wouldn't fix it. Please enjoy the car the way it was intended and sold to you. I will continue to forward on the information internally to hopefully someone who can analyze the situation and take the appropriate actions on it.

:grouphug:

Gary Wells
09-12-09, 09:26 PM
Mr. Reiland:
I apologize for upsetting you with my post. Maybe I was just a little strong on voicing my complaints. Nor was it my intent to derail this thread. And I realize that we are just a small percentage of CTS-V buyers / owners. I only wish the best for my car. And FWIW, I appreciate everything that you do for us on the forum here. I know that you are looking out for our behalf as well as GM's. TIA/R: Gary Wells

aco
09-12-09, 09:38 PM
My point in my previous post was that I have been unable to find any discussion regarding ZR1 complaints. I agree with MReiland in that the complaints here are a minority and became magnafied when wait4me brought it up. If and when I do get my CTS-V, I'm sure the rattling sound will annoy me more so since I know what the problem is and that there is a relatively cheap fix. Will that make me fix it? Maybe, I guess it depends if I can drown it out by the radio or exhaust tone. And please let's not start talking about the drone... ;)

MReiland
09-12-09, 10:18 PM
Not a problem Gary, I believe in the company, and I really believe in this car. (Ask nradcad, I bothered him, ok so I harassed him, or was it taunted him, for 2 years before he jumped on board! I won't leave ya hangn) I have recomended it to so many people and it continues to impress not only the automotive magazines but even Top Gear. The car has went into every comparison so far and fared incredibly well. Like I said, go out and enjoy the car, like it was meant to be driven. Having a 100k mile powertrain warranty on a 500+ hp car is something people would have laughed at only a few years ago....
I remember friends who would procharge a 5.0 or Camaro then piece by piece replace the whole drivetrain and none of the cars back then are even close to the performace you guys are getting bone stock. The V is the real deal.

nradcad
09-12-09, 11:12 PM
Why all the hesitation taking your V to a GM Caddy dealer?

nradcad
09-12-09, 11:14 PM
Not a problem Gary, I believe in the company, and I really believe in this car. (Ask nradcad, I bothered him, ok so I harassed him, or was it taunted him, for 2 years before he jumped on board! I won't leave ya hangn) I have recomended it to so many people and it continues to impress not only the automotive magazines but even Top Gear. The car has went into every comparison so far and fared incredibly well. Like I said, go out and enjoy the car, like it was meant to be driven. Having a 100k mile powertrain warranty on a 500+ hp car is something people would have laughed at only a few years ago....
I remember friends who would procharge a 5.0 or Camaro then piece by piece replace the whole drivetrain and none of the cars back then are even close to the performace you guys are getting bone stock. The V is the real deal.


harassed is prolly the operative word. :thepan:

Gary Wells
09-13-09, 01:36 AM
Why all the hesitation taking your V to a GM Caddy dealer?
I suppose that is directed at me.
For 1, the thread about taking a CTS-V in for an adjustment on the driver side runner at the bottom of the car and the ensuing problems that arose from that visit. For 2, the thread about the dealer advising the CTS-V owner that they would void his warranty if he ran Amsoil in it, for another. For 3, the thread about the differential being low on fluid even though these cars are all dealer prepped and the fill amount should be verified and corrected as necessary by the dealer even though it might be the oversight of the factory. I am sure that most dealers are great for the majority portion. Sometimes the bad ones make up for the good ones though.

Gary Wells
09-13-09, 01:51 AM
Not a problem Gary, I believe in the company, and I really believe in this car. (Ask nradcad, I bothered him, ok so I harassed him, or was it taunted him, for 2 years before he jumped on board! I won't leave ya hangn) I have recomended it to so many people and it continues to impress not only the automotive magazines but even Top Gear. The car has went into every comparison so far and fared incredibly well. Like I said, go out and enjoy the car, like it was meant to be driven. Having a 100k mile powertrain warranty on a 500+ hp car is something people would have laughed at only a few years ago....
I remember friends who would procharge a 5.0 or Camaro then piece by piece replace the whole drivetrain and none of the cars back then are even close to the performace you guys are getting bone stock. The V is the real deal.
I believe in the car ('09 CTS-V) to the point that driving it might be more of a rush that sex, would be a tough call. I've had 2 vettes, an '86 & the '02 Z06 that I have now for a DD, 5 turbo Buicks, one of which I own now, and the Cad, so it is not like I don't believe in the company (GM, I mean)

Maybe corporate GM might be currently going through some growing pains with the union and the union employees who build the car. I have worked in Quality Assurance / Quality Control all or most of my working life, and I do hold quality of things manufactured to a high standard. Especially if it's my $ on the line.

GM-4-LIFE
09-13-09, 01:00 PM
MReiland,

First off, I wanted to thank you for being there for us and checking internally to see what progress has been made on the issues that plague our cars. This is a rare thing to have and I really hope other CTS-V owners on this board appreciate what you are doing for us. I hope you don't get in trouble at GM for going out on a limb for us by providing us with insider information.

I love my CTS-V and I have taken it in to my local Cadillac dealer several times for the wheel clicking issue (and other problems I have had) and GM TAC and GM Engineering do not have a fix for the wheel clicking issue at this time. I really hope someone or a group of Engineers are working on this issue and other issues that need to be addressed.

If there is a problem with my car, I take it in immediately so that the dealer can write it up so it gets reported to GM. I think my CTS-V is the only one out there that has been in to the dealer 6 or more times for the wheel clicking issue. I think others just live with it, even though it is a good thing GM is trying to resolve this specific problem.

My advice to everyone is to find a Cadillac dealer you like and stick with them. I am fortunate enough to have found a dealer that is simply outstanding in the way I am treated and how my CTS-V is treated. From my service advisor, the techs and the service manager, they are all really great to deal with. Once you find a Cadillac dealer you trust, get all the problems reported so that GM gets notified of all the issues so they can work on a fix.

I am sure the 2011 model year CTS-V (if there is one) should have most if not all of the issues resolved. I am sure the 2010 CTS-V will have the same problems as the 2009 CTS-Vs, so let's hope there will be enough complaints sent to GM so they do get fixes for our cars quick.

As far as this isolator issue goes, I have almost 8,000 miles on my CTS-V and I haven't heard the rattling or marbles sound yet, but as soon as I do, I will take it in and have them take care of it. I do listen for it so I don't miss it. Jes' fix for it may be the only way to resolve the problem until GM releases their own solid isolator which dealers will install once they have to replace the entire supercharger assembly. This is going to be a very expensive problem for GM, so let's hope they find the fix before there are tons of supercharger failures out there.

SG

tbss08
09-13-09, 03:49 PM
MReiland,
I know you do a lot for us as owners of the CTS-V's. I thought things would change after GM restructured but during the last two years these are my experiences with GM and their dealerships.

Okay not to jump on a bashing wagon here but folks ask why people are afraid to bring their cars into the dealers.

1. 2007 Z06 bought with 12 miles on it, clutch felt weird the first time I drove it but attributed it to the LS 7 moving up from the LS 6. Not so, a warped pressure plate required a replacement of the clutch, flywheel and throw out bearing. While the car was in the dealer ship they were so nice as to scratch the ash tray door, scratch the console and lower a car lift on my drivers door. Fast forward four trips to the dealer trying to get this resolved, two air bag lights, two exhaust leaks only to find they botched the whole job from the start.
Four broken studs on the drivers side, three on the passenger side muffler pipe dope put on the flanges to keep them from leaking. The drivers side CV joint cover torn and grease flung all over the wheel well.

2. After only 9 months of ownership, 5 of those fighting with the dealership and GM, I traded this one off for an 08 at a very good price and a very bad transmission. Five trips to the dealer to get it repaired with no repair attempt. Only explanation during arbitration from the district rep: "I thought I was doing you a favor not replacing your transmission."

3. Still not losing faith in GM I bought a CTS-V. I thought the Cadillac dealer would be different. Brought the car in for a check engine light, maf sensor wiring loose. The tech was nice enough to put a paper mat on the floor mat, didn't cover the seat, didn't cover the steering wheel and didn't wash his hands after servicing my car and having every other mechanic in the place gawk at the car for ten minutes going out the door. Will I be back to this dealer, only if hell freezes over and every other dealer within a two hour drive closes. I did not buy my car from this dealer because they would not even give me a price when I told them it was a cash deal.

This is why even though I currently own 4 GM vehicles I despise dealerships. I have a 1996 Impala SS my local dealer did a front end alignment on, 900 miles ago and I need new front tires because they apparently don't know what toe out or toe in means.
I cringe thinking of going to a dealership for service. My wife's TrailBlazer SS needs a little warranty look at for the rear valance and front inner fender liner, I don't even know if I trust them to look at these. Maybe this is GM's ploy in saving warranty costs by pissing everyone off and letting us do our own work.
I only hope the V continues to be the exceptional car it is so I don't have to visit they local dealership.

Sorry for the rant but this just brings up the bad blood. All these screwed up Dealerships and what does GM do for the consumer, not a damn thing. They will not stand behind us and help out. I've never bought anything in my life other than a GM product but if the New GM continues like the old GM I might have to consider something else as I get older and cars become more difficult to work on myself.

MReiland
09-13-09, 04:41 PM
:hide:

Yeouch, I wish there wasn't such a wide gap between great dealers and lousy dealers. I have said it before in other posts, the dealers can make or break the customer experience. I can say for certain that the new GM is much smaller and more nimble of an organization. In the next 2 weeks, 1/3 of Management will be gone, that's alot folks. I feel for all of you, I can't afford a V right now but I only drive GM's as does my extended family. Let's see where things go with the isolater issue. It should be easier to cut through the bueracracy in the new GM to get things done faster.

tbss08
09-14-09, 09:01 PM
Matt,
Maybe the new GM will be different. Like I said I have been a die hard GM fan all my life. I took some lumps when the Z went back on a Lemon Law because all of the guys at work know how much I liked the Z. They also know I am a motorhead and have a definite need for speed. The day I parked the V in the parking lot I had at least 20 mechanics and other salary folks stop me and ask how the V compared to the Vette, they just knew it was mine. I hope the new GM pulls it off and listens to their customers. I just don't know if there it a way to get it through the thick headed dealers and if there is some way for the New GM do something to make it sink into the dealers heads.
GM makes some awesome vehicles and I enjoy driving all four of the ones we have. My parents talked about getting a Toyota and I told them if they came to visit they could park down the street. I have bought 7 new GM vehicles in the past 5 years. If the New GM wants to have this type customer loyalty then they need to step back up to the plate. Maybe they need to do a mystery customer like a mystery shopper and see how the average person gets treated at dealerships and take appropriate actions from there. Have one or two of the office sitters come out in the field for a few weeks each year with different cars and see how they get treated at a dealership. Just a suggestion you could put back to the inner boards at GM.
Thanks again for all you do for this community.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Marcuse12
09-17-09, 11:22 PM
1000 miles on my 09 and have developed the marble in a can sound. I can hear it outside as well as inside. Makes the car sound like a diesel.

Marcuse12
09-29-09, 12:48 PM
Any news from GM?

nc09v2
09-29-09, 10:16 PM
My car has made the marble sound at idle for a while, louder sometimes than others, but not really noticable from inside unless the windows are down and the radio is low. Other than hearing the marbles when I listen for it, my car runs perfectly. I bet the ZR-1 has it too, they just have louder exhaust.

I anticipate there will eventually be a TSB or recall if and when our Superchargers start to actually fail, but remember that we have the 5 year/100K powertrain warranty, so as long as it runs o.k. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Gary Wells
09-29-09, 10:44 PM
I am not looking forward to having that issue, and maybe I won't, but more than likely, I will. I would rather but the part from Jesse and have it installed by a competent mechanic, even though this approach sounds pricey, than listen to it and / or bury my head in the sand when people in the lane next to me at the light look at me funny. And the superchargers may never fail, only sound like crap. If you were GM would you step up to the plate on this?

Razorecko
09-29-09, 10:46 PM
I brought mine to the dealer about the isolater noise and they said they hear it. The mechanic said that it was the sound of the fuel injectors firing off....lol...I said k, whatever. If the blower takes a dump its under warranty anyway....although get this. They never marked it on the invoice that it was the sound of the "fuel inejctors" sounded like b.s. excuse to not get off their butt.

nradcad
09-29-09, 10:48 PM
My car has made the marble sound at idle for a while, louder sometimes than others, but not really noticable from inside unless the windows are down and the radio is low. Other than hearing the marbles when I listen for it, my car runs perfectly. I bet the ZR-1 has it too, they just have louder exhaust.

I anticipate there will eventually be a TSB or recall if and when our Superchargers start to actually fail, but remember that we have the 5 year/100K powertrain warranty, so as long as it runs o.k. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

I've noticed the same noise at idle as well. Louder exhaust on the ZR1 covers it? Man, I wish the V had a louder exhaust/engine. I only have a few complaints on this car and one of them is I can't hear the damn engine.

RapidRob
09-29-09, 11:47 PM
Just for everyone's info., there is an official acknowledgment from GM about the isolator noise issue. Next time your dealer plays dumb on you, tell them to look up, "PIP4523A: Marble Type Rattle Noise At Idle From The Supercharger - Potential Noise Characteristic - keywords BQMI - (March 20, 2009)".

"Document ID: 2253881".

"Models: 2009 Cadillac CTS-V"
"2009 Chevrolet ZR1 Corvette"

"with 6.2L Supercharged Engine (RPO LS9 or LSA)"

In the write up, they fail to recognize the actual cause of the noise, which was discovered by Wait4Me Performance's Jesse as the isolator, but imply that the noise may be mistaken as supercharger bearing noise, prompting needless, "supercharger replacement". I'm still wondering if they will ever investigate and find the actual problem, or just wait for failures ... !?

Rob

4gear70
09-30-09, 02:13 AM
Just for everyone's info., there is an official acknowledgment from GM about the isolator noise issue. Next time your dealer plays dumb on you, tell them to look up, "PIP4523A: Marble Type Rattle Noise At Idle From The Supercharger - Potential Noise Characteristic - keywords BQMI - (March 20, 2009)".

"Document ID: 2253881".

"Models: 2009 Cadillac CTS-V"
"2009 Chevrolet ZR1 Corvette"

"with 6.2L Supercharged Engine (RPO LS9 or LSA)"

In the write up, they fail to recognize the actual cause of the noise, which was discovered by Wait4Me Performance's Jesse as the isolator, but imply that the noise may be mistaken as supercharger bearing noise, prompting needless, "supercharger replacement". I'm still wondering if they will ever investigate and find the actual problem, or just wait for failures ... !?

Rob

Strangely, the factory service manuals do NOT show a breakdown of the supercharger internals including the isolator or mention anything about removing/repairing those parts - no specs on bolt torques etc.(at least I was not able to find it in any of the 4 manuals).

Razorecko
09-30-09, 10:55 AM
lol free blowers for everyone at 30k woohoo :bouncy:

Mike 09 V
10-03-09, 12:39 PM
It seems to me that the factory wouldn't have introduced a more complicated part (the isolator) if they didn't think the shock on the SC wasn't a problem. A solid piece would be more simple. So the question is: what will happen over time with the solid part, and will the warranty cover such an eventuality if we change it. Also, other than the eventual noise and shaft scoring, is there a reason to go to the solid piece that would improve our performance or the longevity of the SC?

Mike 09 V
10-03-09, 12:45 PM
An addendum to the previous post. I just started hearing the noise in question so it is of interest to me that there be a solution. I think we also should think of taking the car in near the warranty expiration and having the part replaced along with the shaft. Assuming GM is still around which I think they will be. Along that line has anyone had the part replaced from the dealer and did they replace the shaft as well?

cbloveday
10-03-09, 12:53 PM
I went to a solid isolator @ 1,000 miles. Car was silent until the solid isolator. It now is very loud. Diesel sound and marbles in a can sound. Car runs great as well. Dealer and vendor told me it was due to solid isolator.

Gary Wells
10-03-09, 01:40 PM
I went to a solid isolator @ 1,000 miles. Car was silent until the solid isolator. It now is very loud. Diesel sound and marbles in a can sound. Car runs great as well. Dealer and vendor told me it was due to solid isolator.
Whose manufacturer of solid isolator? How many miles on the car now?

cbloveday
10-04-09, 12:25 AM
Whose manufacturer of solid isolator? How many miles on the car now?

1,400 miles on the car.

The isolator was part of the Lingenfelter pulley upgrade package:


Package Includes:
- 2.55 inch diameter steel supercharger drive pulley - powder coated black - 8 rib
- 8 rib serpentine belt
- Lingenfelter LS9 solid supercharger isolator coupling
- Port and polish supercharger snout
- Lingenfelter air intake duct
- Increased boost level 12 - 13 psi
- Professional engine modifications, testing & PCM tuning
- Chassis dyno report before & after installation
- Excellent drivability, highway mileage not adversely affected
- Lingenfelter certificate of authenticity

The install was done via their mail order kit. Required me to remove supercharger snout and ECM and ship to Lingenfelter who then did the mods and returned. I had the dealership do the install. They had my car for 1 week and I enjoyed a 2009 Escalade with 800 miles on the clock as a loaner for the week.

As a result of the mail order the car wa snot dynoed. Also, I am waiting for as few hundred more miles on the engine before I dyno

nradcad
10-04-09, 01:24 AM
1,400 miles on the car.

The isolator was part of the Lingenfelter pulley upgrade package:


Package Includes:
- 2.55 inch diameter steel supercharger drive pulley - powder coated black - 8 rib
- 8 rib serpentine belt
- Lingenfelter LS9 solid supercharger isolator coupling
- Port and polish supercharger snout
- Lingenfelter air intake duct
- Increased boost level 12 - 13 psi
- Professional engine modifications, testing & PCM tuning
- Chassis dyno report before & after installation
- Excellent drivability, highway mileage not adversely affected
- Lingenfelter certificate of authenticity

The install was done via their mail order kit. Required me to remove supercharger snout and ECM and ship to Lingenfelter who then did the mods and returned. I had the dealership do the install. They had my car for 1 week and I enjoyed a 2009 Escalade with 800 miles on the clock as a loaner for the week.

As a result of the mail order the car wa snot dynoed. Also, I am waiting for as few hundred more miles on the engine before I dyno

start to finish how much is that gonna cost and what kind of performance numbers do you think you are gonna get out of it.

1/4 mile and 60-130?

MReiland
10-04-09, 08:43 AM
I went to a solid isolator @ 1,000 miles. Car was silent until the solid isolator. It now is very loud. Diesel sound and marbles in a can sound. Car runs great as well. Dealer and vendor told me it was due to solid isolator.

Your car is now very loud 'after' the isolator or before?

nradcad
10-04-09, 12:07 PM
Your car is now very loud 'after' the isolator or before?

I think it's loud now after he but in the solid one.

Gary Wells
10-04-09, 12:57 PM
I'm thinking that the factory isolator was removed at 1K miles as part of the upgrade kit, but before it was determined that it was or was not going to make noise, and now the solid replacement is noisier or now making noise. Hindsight is easy, but in this case it might have been better to stay with the stocker until it was determined that it was a noise issue.

nradcad
10-12-09, 01:33 AM
Oh joy, my car make an extremely loud and distinct marbles in a tin can sound when I initially start it and accelerate. Of everyone that has this issue, is it worth taking to dealer to document it or is the plan to wait on the recall notice?

Gary Wells
10-12-09, 05:43 AM
Sorry to hear.
How many miles on your car when it started making the dreaded "marbles in a tin can" noise? I haven't had the noise yet, but as soon as I do, I am off to the dealer to at least get it documented. Hard to do anything without documentation. As far as expecting them to fix it, that's a different story. I am planning on buying Jesse's fix (isolator) and having it ready for when I do get it fixed. Probably by an independent mechanic, too. Unless I find a sympathetic qualified *dealer* that I feel is capable.

cbloveday
10-12-09, 06:56 AM
start to finish how much is that gonna cost and what kind of performance numbers do you think you are gonna get out of it.

1/4 mile and 60-130?


My cost was as follows:

-Mail order kit $1,445
http://www.lingenfelter.com/engine-packages/cadillac/cadillac-cts-v-lsa-2009/378-cid-lsa-supercharger-pulley-upgrade-2009

-Cost to have parts removed, mailed to LPE, and reinstalled $600.00.

Items sent:
Supercharger Snout
ECU
Airbox


The package is rated at 630 bhp.


Ligenfelter repeatedly advised me that this package was an upgrade and it is not on the edge. My dealer spoke to them and discussed calibrations to determine if they would warranty. Result was I was given the bulletin by service and managemet said unless I blow a piston or something like that they will work with me. They also advised how GM wants snapshot of ECU calibrations on any major drivetrain claims. I was comfortable with everything and told them to proceed. Dealership gave me a loaner
(2009 Escalade)for the week while they did the work.

Car did not make isolator noise prior to install. They use the solid isolator
Dealership called Lingenfelter about the noise and I discussed it upon pickup.
All parties agreed, the noise is the solid Isolator.

There you are!

Prof
10-12-09, 08:11 AM
This up-grade is very tantalizing...the concept of having the dealership install is an interesting philosophical approach. Great to have tacit buy in from those that will make decisions about warranty issues in the future. But pistons and rods at higher boost numbers is still a worry for me.

Any thoughts about adding water/meth or possibly a 50 shot to lower the intake temperatures even more to protect the pistons?

nradcad
10-12-09, 05:14 PM
My cost was as follows:

-Mail order kit $1,445
http://www.lingenfelter.com/engine-packages/cadillac/cadillac-cts-v-lsa-2009/378-cid-lsa-supercharger-pulley-upgrade-2009

-Cost to have parts removed, mailed to LPE, and reinstalled $600.00.

Items sent:
Supercharger Snout
ECU
Airbox


The package is rated at 630 bhp.


Ligenfelter repeatedly advised me that this package was an upgrade and it is not on the edge. My dealer spoke to them and discussed calibrations to determine if they would warranty. Result was I was given the bulletin by service and managemet said unless I blow a piston or something like that they will work with me. They also advised how GM wants snapshot of ECU calibrations on any major drivetrain claims. I was comfortable with everything and told them to proceed. Dealership gave me a loaner
(2009 Escalade)for the week while they did the work.

Car did not make isolator noise prior to install. They use the solid isolator
Dealership called Lingenfelter about the noise and I discussed it upon pickup.
All parties agreed, the noise is the solid Isolator.

There you are!

Thanks a ton for the info. That seems to be the only way to do that mod. I'm gonna basically print this story out and ask my dealer if they'd be willing to do something similar.

Is that 630crank or rearwheel?

RapidRob
10-12-09, 11:38 PM
Sorry to hear.
How many miles on your car when it started making the dreaded "marbles in a tin can" noise? I haven't had the noise yet, but as soon as I do, I am off to the dealer to at least get it documented. Hard to do anything without documentation. As far as expecting them to fix it, that's a different story. I am planning on buying Jesse's fix (isolator) and having it ready for when I do get it fixed. Probably by an independent mechanic, too. Unless I find a sympathetic qualified *dealer* that I feel is capable.

Gary - Be advised that you normally can't hear the, "marbles", sound at idle unless you are outside the car near the front end, or, sometimes it can be heard when your window(s) are open and there is very little other noise around. I've had this issue from day one, and unless they've done a fix on v2's at the factory beyond a certain build date, (mine was built in 02/09), all v2's have apparently had the isolator noise issue. What was the build date on your v2? If they have fixed it at the production level, I sure would like to know about it!

Rob

nradcad
10-13-09, 02:27 AM
Ummm...you can hear mine pretty distinctly inside the cabin. It is far by the most prominent sound when it is at idle when I accelerate from a cold start.
Which, I've never understood. This noise seems to go away as the car's been driving around.

Gary Wells
10-13-09, 06:29 AM
Gary - Be advised that you normally can't hear the, "marbles", sound at idle unless you are outside the car near the front end, or, sometimes it can be heard when your window(s) are open and there is very little other noise around. I've had this issue from day one, and unless they've done a fix on v2's at the factory beyond a certain build date, (mine was built in 02/09), all v2's have apparently had the isolator noise issue. What was the build date on your v2? If they have fixed it at the production level, I sure would like to know about it!

Rob

Rob:
Thanks, Rob, for the info. My build date is 03/09, one of the reasons that I am trying to develop the "who all's build date is 03/09?" thread. I am just interested is see which, if any of these issues can be traced to a time frame. I only have about 500 miles on the car now, but I will have to listen a little more carefully for the rattle. At 65, I'm pretty much deaf anyway, and according to where I work, it's only when I hear what I want to. I am certain that if they had started fixing this issue at the build level, we would have heard about it by now, and the *dealers* would discontinue their practice of saying that's normal.

Prof
10-13-09, 07:44 AM
Rob:
... At 65, I'm pretty much deaf anyway, and according to where I work, it's only when I hear what I want to...

My wife says the same thing...

and I object vociferously!


I guess she has found me out after 35 years of marriage:rolleyes:

Gary Wells
10-13-09, 08:30 AM
Congratulations, Prof, on 35 years of marriage. Best wishes for many more to come.

6DN69
10-13-09, 08:39 AM
Thanks a ton for the info. That seems to be the only way to do that mod. I'm gonna basically print this story out and ask my dealer if they'd be willing to do something similar.

Is that 630crank or rearwheel?


It's crank hp...

Prof
10-13-09, 09:00 AM
Congratulations, Prof, on 35 years of marriage. Best wishes for many more to come.

This marriage may work...not positive yet...but being married to a woman who is a Saint makes the odds a little better!

Ryan@Lingenfelter
10-26-09, 11:19 AM
Anyone who is having a noise issue with their LPE solid isolator please call me at the shop @ 260-724-2552 ext. 1004 to arrange the shipment of your new isolator.

Thanks,
Ryan

cbloveday
10-27-09, 01:17 AM
Ryan,

I spoke to Jeff today. Thanks for the call and offering to do swap for free.

MReiland
10-27-09, 08:02 AM
I have heard from a reputable source that switching to a solid isolator will at some point make a different but louder sound from gear backlash that can be heard inside the cabin that the isolator was originally put in to solve.

What does the solid isolator change from Henessey entail?

Mike 09 V
10-27-09, 12:41 PM
Ummm...you can hear mine pretty distinctly inside the cabin. It is far by the most prominent sound when it is at idle when I accelerate from a cold start.
Which, I've never understood. This noise seems to go away as the car's been driving around.
Guessing here: There is bound to be some gear lash in the SC that is reduced when the temperature increases, other wise it will bind up when it gets hot. That could account for your experience.

Another thought on the isolator-Looking at Jess's video on the pulley swap, (and I have nothing else to go on,; I have never been inside one of these SC's, only watched the videos, so I could be all wet), it looks like the isolator is a coupling-It allows the snout to come off with its bearings and pulley (for servicing or replacement) and serves as a connection to the rest of the SC. It appears that the mechanism that makes the connection is a series of 3 pins on the snout side and probably 3 on the SC side. I couldn't see the SC side in the video. Looking at the original it appears that there are 3 holes that are the pin size and 3 that are slots. This would seem to indicate that the idea is that the engine RPM can increase rapidly and the spring will allow the SC to catch up a little slower so that there is not so much shock on the gears. Maybe it is to give a little more life to the coupler as well since it appears that replacement couplers (isolators) are an item that several companies provide for repair. I have provided some links to cut and paste at the bottom so you can read up on them. It appears that the holes in the coupler elongate over time and cause noise. It looks like the stubby shaft on the snout side doesn't turn independent of the pins so I'm guessing that the shaft is just to hold the coupler in place and allow it to move slightly sideways in the slots when the RPM changes. So the shaft wear maybe isn't as big an issue as it might be if the coupler rotated around it all the time.
Finally, doing some Google searches it appears that the isolator (coupler) is the most common maintenance item on the SC.
Heres the links:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eaton-Supercharger-Coupler-Repair-Kit-_W0QQitemZ320433003599QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&itemid=320433003599
Another:http://www.superchargersonline.com/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=ET-COUPLER-NS

cbloveday
10-29-09, 09:49 PM
I received my replacement isolator from Lingenfelter today. Had it installed and car is as quiet as day one. Thank you Lingenfelter for also helping with the swap charge as I could not get to your shop.

Razorecko
10-29-09, 10:21 PM
Anyone who is having a noise issue with their LPE solid isolator please call me at the shop @ 260-724-2552 ext. 1004 to arrange the shipment of your new isolator.

Thanks,
Ryan

Hey Ryan, I have heard of a dealer installing your V kit and GM still allowing the owner to retain the powertrain warranty minus the motor warranty. Is this authentic and does it reply to all dealers or just a select few ?

lavaman
10-30-09, 11:43 AM
I received my replacement isolator from Lingenfelter today. Had it installed and car is as quiet as day one. Thank you Lingenfelter for also helping with the swap charge as I could not get to your shop.


Could you explain or identify any changes in the replacement isolator? In the first Lingenfelter isolator were any holes elongated?

cbloveday
10-30-09, 08:38 PM
Could you explain or identify any changes in the replacement isolator? In the first Lingenfelter isolator were any holes elongated?

I do not have photos of the new lingenfelter isolator. The shop did tell me they needed to put it on with a rubber hammer, unlike the fist lingenfelter isolator that just slipped on and had play.

vseries
12-06-09, 11:29 PM
cbloveday is the isolator still quite?

cbloveday
12-06-09, 11:37 PM
Yes, all i good. I have put about 2,000 miles on it

vseries
12-06-09, 11:56 PM
Thats Great! thanks for the quick reply

cbloveday
01-02-10, 01:26 AM
Just to clarify for a member inquiry:

No isolator noise
Did Lingenfelter SC pulley engine package (includes solid isolator)
car sounded like marbles in a can
Lingenfelter contaced me and advised they got a bad batch of isolators with improper tolerences
Lingenfelter shipped a new solid isolator and paid for swap
Car is quiet 3,000 miles since new isolator

Those that have gone to a new solid isolator and are experiencing noise, need to get a new solid isolator with proper tolerences and noise is completely gone.

I have not experienced any gear noise to date.

Gary Wells
01-02-10, 09:44 AM
Not to Bogart this thread, but my stock supercharger isolator went south about 3 weeks ago at 1230 miles. Could not hear it from inside the car yet, but did not want to wait until I did. Had it removed and replaced with the Lingenfelter one by D3 Research & Design in Signal hill, CA. Total cost was only $ 236.00 which included labor, Lingenfelter isolator, tax, & overnight shipping. I can't say enough bad about GM's warranty policy on this issue. I know that it is not their fault directly but indirectly they are the ones who bought into installing a sealed unit supercharger and selling it.

09cts-v
02-05-11, 12:58 AM
All this makes me uneasy with my recent brand swap. In 8 years of driving BMWs, I never had 1 related engine issue. Not 1. And I drove the piss out of those cars. Track them, drag them, you name it.
Lucky you, I had mine in the shop over 11 times in one year for many issues, then again it was a 08 335i. Maybe an M would have been better.