: Tuning thread. Disappointed, but I understand.



97EldoCoupe
08-26-09, 11:06 PM
I just read the last couple pages in the tuning thread. I believe I can see what's going on. That PM that got around, that I never knew about until now, well, someone please PM me and let me in on that.

OK so the fact is that tuning the PCM looks to be out of the question, at least for now.

So for those of us who want pure, raw horsepower from our toys, what are our options?

I love the Caddy body styles. I love the electronics, and the gadgets.

I'm not giving up. the S/C project and the camshafts will still be work in progress. But if nothing can be dialed in to reach it's best potential...

Makes me want to remove the body from my '76 Olds Chassis and throw my Eldo's body on that frame......

A new PCM built from scratch and programmed in would cost thousands upon thousands, unless there's anybody that knows anybody who know's someone who can design and program a new one from scratch.

Otherwise, all that's left is to run the engine with a standalone ECM. Then we will likely lose all the info on the DIC, the VATS will have problems, stabilitrak, RSS, the list goes on. I'm not enough into electronics to figure out a way to intigrate a standalone PCM into the vehicle while retaining all of those Caddy options.

Cadillac did a wonderful job designing and building these cars. But they should have left room for modifications.

I am almost willing to lose most of the Caddy features to have an all-out performance 97 Eldorado. Sure, it can be built. But it has to pass all the legal issues so it can be street driven. Not so much of an issue here in Canada, but in the USA....

This would mean a standalone engine controller, maybe an old 700-R4 and RWD, aftermarket stereo, aftermarket guages, regular suspension, and such.

If it was done right it would still be worth it. But General Motors should work with a certain forum member who shall be nameless right now to satisfy all of us performance oriented Cadillac enthusiasts. If GM was smart, they'd listen to what we want. Cadillac is a big name and the Northstar has been a big success. It would be way bigger if they cooperated with us.

osu411yamaha
08-26-09, 11:13 PM
Jake,
If you were to go the route of dodging the PCM I may have some methods of getting around the VATS issue. From the looks of other threads I also believe other members could help you in the stabilitrack department by using some sort of passive suspension method...
Thanks,
OSU411Yamaha

97EldoCoupe
08-26-09, 11:26 PM
Very true. All I know is that I want this:

A Cadillac, a modern style Cadillac, with the feel of a refined muscle machine.

I'm still installing those cams to see if there's any improvement and if driveability is affected at all.

If re-tuning the Northstar on the stock PCM simply doesn't work, We'll just have to go to extremes.

I think I want to buy a Cadillac Cien. That's one hot looking Caddy.

Pete1996
08-27-09, 11:12 AM
A couple questions if you don't mind.

Is the crank position sensor used for ignition timing, fuel injection timing, and RPM only? Anything else?

Is there a schematic for this year STS showing the PCM and engine wiring online somewhere?

I'm an electrical engineer by the way and I have a few ideas that might lead to a solution.

Thanks,
Pete

97EldoCoupe
08-27-09, 11:47 AM
If I remember correctly the cam position sensor is used for the fuel injectors and crank position sensors for the spark. I will have to check.

Warmarshall2nd
08-28-09, 02:07 PM
I believe Raze was telling me there's a way to piggyback a 'Power Perfect's SMT8' computer on our stock PCMs.


Here's where the hard part comes in, tuning, well I've spent many a year looking and even got into figuring out how to adapt a MegaSquirt but instead I've found this gem: Power Perfect's SMT8, http://www.perfectpowerusa.citymax.c...ge/1995627.htm
...
If you read the fine print you'll see Bob Ida tuned the COMPLETE 2003 N* + wiring harness


The post in its entirety can be found here: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/156536-super-turbocharging-el-dorado-3.html

Or... Would this only work for a turbo kit and not a supercharger?

Just a thought...

99Classillac
02-01-10, 10:24 PM
Hey guys, remember that white DTS that someone made RWD with that loud ass V8 with monster HP? I forgot the shop who did it but the car was sold around a couple times. I had contacted them about it. They said that they could put any motor in the Deville and still make the DIC and all the other things in the car work. Well instead of them making a RWD big block V8 that still uses everything else, why cant they put a sand rail N* in it, leave it FWD and get the car to still work. It seems like if they can get other motors to work, getting a modded sand rail N* to work should be easy...

97EldoCoupe
02-02-10, 05:02 PM
A sand rail N* is nothing more than a stock Northstar fitted with CHRFab's wonderful line of go-fast parts. It could be installed in anything. My 98 STS has 4 of those wacky-idle cams in it. It works with the stock PCM.

That was a 572 BB Chevy between the fenders and I forget the shop's name. That was crazy power and I imagine crazy gas mileage too- less than 15 MPG, you would think.

I still question the demand for RWD Eldorados, Devilles, Sevilles, and Auroras. With the real Northstar they came with, mounted longitudinally. I think it's totally possible but when I looked at the underbody, I noticed the floor pan will need to be modded as well for driveshaft clearance. They should have been RWD. I think GM lost a lot of business when they discontinued the RWD B-body in 1996. Big screw up on their part.

garlicbreath
02-03-10, 07:59 PM
Hey guys, remember that white DTS that someone made RWD with that loud ass V8 with monster HP?


Come to our shop, we'll make your shit fast

z2lM5SdMVlc

Submariner409
02-03-10, 11:07 PM
One of the oldest links in CF...............the car has been sold three times now.........must be a really reliable driver..............

$70,000 !!!!! :eek:

99Classillac
02-04-10, 02:22 PM
Lol yea. I wouldn't get it because it's too loud. But my point was maybe instead of trying to get our PCM's tuned to get power out of the N*, just do what these guys did. They got everything to work in the car that originally worked, they just changed the motor. I would like to see a lot less work. Like instead of the monster motor they shoved in there, the N* since the motor would mount right up. Thats why I said a sandrail N*. It would bolt up, and then just treat it like it was that 572. Get everything in the car to work the way they did it, and I guess a standalone PCM just for the sandrail N*. That way you don't have to custom up some mounts are all that other shit. I think it would work. But you could potentially have a high HP N* in your car with everything else still working. You understand where I am coming from? I don't know if I'm making sense or am clear. If they made it work with a 572, you can make it work for sure with a 4.6L that will bolt in. Hell, keep it FWD. Less custom fabricating.

I say sandrail N* just for purposes of seperating the stock motor from a modified higher HP N* motor.

97EldoCoupe
02-05-10, 01:15 AM
99 - I know exactly what you mean and that would be awesome - but I don't believe for one second that they managed to retain all of the Cadillac "goodies" with that 572. Not unless they miraculously used the stock PCM to control that engine. A lot of the electronics in the car rely on feedback from the PCM. With a standalone PCM, there would be no feedback. This stuff is the only thing holding me back from convering my '97 Eldo to RWD.

Necrosan
02-06-10, 11:42 AM
Someone would need to piggyback onto our PCMs and see what signals are sent, etc and record the data for days if not weeks of driving.
See what goes where, what keeps what happy, etc. Then build a PCM socket or something to go in between the new engine and the old PCM, along with some kind of basic chip that would emulate the missing things from a non-northstar pcm/engine to keep the rest of the car happy.

The hardest part would be finding the variables that really matter, once that's done building the actual stuff to go in between wouldn't be that hard.

Only so many wires on a PCM. :)

97EldoCoupe
02-06-10, 07:36 PM
Necrosan you hit the nail dead center on the head. That would be the miracle that we all need. Who's up for an electronic/electrical challenge?

Skiller.
02-06-10, 08:17 PM
z2lM5SdMVlc

Hahaha

Destroyer
02-08-10, 08:34 PM
Necrosan you hit the nail dead center on the head. That would be the miracle that we all need. Who's up for an electronic/electrical challenge?
Jake you should start doing Chevy swaps in N* Cadillacs. Maybe even Supercharged Buick swaps. I bet that would be more lucrative. :thumbsup:

99Classillac
02-09-10, 02:27 PM
I wish I knew something about programming PCM's and what not. But when I had emailed that garage that built that DTS with the 572, they told me everything worked like originally. But they coulda been blowing smoke to get me to come in. But what if they were correct. What if they used an aftermarket ABS system, and an aftermarket suspension control system. I don't see what else you would need. If you're running a custom motor with it's own PCM and its own transmission, what else would you need the stock PCM for? The analog DTS/STS dash still worked in that car so that didn't need the stock PCM. You wouldn't be able to use the in dash diagnostic mode for sure. But I'm willing to lose that. Does the climate control stuff in the car need the factory PCM? I thought that ran off of something else? I think the project is doable. Maybe expensive if you have to get aftermarket ABS and Stability and suspension system.

Stingroo
02-09-10, 02:44 PM
Dude, I bet he could make a killing doing S/C 3800 swaps. I would totally buy an El Dorado like that *dreams* I love the way they look

ponyboyt
02-11-10, 10:04 AM
what would be the benefit of a s/c 3800 over a Northstar??

Sure i see the modding capabilities of a 3800... you'd still have a lot of PCM work though? To make the 3800 work with the rest of the car.

Go back to the cams Jake. From what i've seen and heard so far, unless there is something new i havent heard yet, you are onto somethig good there.

expensive mod, but a HP gain none-the-less, on a car where there are no other big gains.

97EldoCoupe
02-12-10, 08:04 AM
I'm thinking high HP/high TQ drop-in crate engines (Northstars).

Destroyer - small block Chevys with RWD and a solid rear axle - not a bad idea :thumbsup:

But I'd prefer RWD and a longitudinally configured Northstar.

Ponyboyt - I know for sure my '98 picked up some power but I lost some driveability. I am almost sure I can figure out a cam grind that will work, do some nice head work (ported heads, undercut and polished valves, etc.) and find another 50 HP in there.

And Destroyer - these crate Northstars that I'd be selling would not have HG issues :D so you would have to find a nice body to drop one of my engines in to.

As for the 3800 - those are damn good engines. I came close to ripping the 305 TBI out of my '89 GMC and throwing the SC/3800 in place. Power and torque up, fuel consumption down. I just can't see the advantage of throwing one of those in a Caddy.

Rocket88
02-15-10, 10:50 AM
Has anyone thought of approaching HP Tuners and offering to underwrite their work on the Northstar PCM tuning? It seems in the past they were more than ready to work on it, but other priorities took over. From the comments they left on their forum, I am guessing they just figured their wasn't enough support to invest the time and money into it.

I am guessing it would not be a cheap investment, but if enough of us were interested, it might be worthwhile discussing it with them.

stbtt
02-15-10, 11:15 AM
Has anyone thought of approaching HP Tuners and offering to underwrite their work on the Northstar PCM tuning? It seems in the past they were more than ready to work on it, but other priorities took over. From the comments they left on their forum, I am guessing they just figured their wasn't enough support to invest the time and money into it.

I am guessing it would not be a cheap investment, but if enough of us were interested, it might be worthwhile discussing it with them.

They have to much on their plate to bother with the older N* pcm's. There was a thread over on the forum and they said they will not bother with it and locked the thread. It is to old of a platform and not enough money in it for them.