: Cold air intakes with oil filters voiding warranty?



cad fan
08-17-09, 09:15 PM
Today I took my new 2009 v in for it's first oil change to my Cadillac dealer. The service writer told me they have voided the warranty on MAF sensor on a few cars , due to oil from cold air intake filters getting on MAF sensor. Once this happens he said it will give faulty readings. Has anyone had this problem that is using an oil filter intake like this ? I just purchased a cold air intake with K&N filter from wait4me performance and am having second thoughts on installing it. Dealer says to only use intakes with paper filters only! Have never heard of this on any car using a MAF sensor , any help would be great.

Gary Wells
08-17-09, 09:35 PM
Yes, something was just posted within the last month or so regarding somebody that had the same issue come up, but the response from GM was that It did not void that particular person's warranty due to the nature of his problem. I believe that it was somebody that had a tranny replaced under warranty, and the oil on the maf query came into play, but did not win. This was one of the usual suspects (posters) on this forum section.

Rolex
08-17-09, 09:35 PM
I've run CAIs with oiled cotton filters on the last 4 vehicles I've owned. I never had the problem with the filter right out of the box. I did run into this very thing after I cleaned and re-oiled my K&N filter though. Even though I used the recommended amount of oil, the oil gummed up the MAFS element and made the SES light come on. I shot a couple short blasts of MAFS cleaner onto the element, cleared the codes, and blew some of the oil out of the filter. I never had any trouble after that.

I'll bet you people are over oiling their filters, and cleaning the MAFS with something other then a cleaner designed for the job. Spraying brake parts cleaner or carb cleaner on a MAFS can ruin it. The right cleaner for the job = no trouble.

You can find dry flow filters for most CAIs. If you're that worried just pick up a dry flow cone filter.

Gary Wells
08-17-09, 09:48 PM
I've run CAIs with oiled cotton filters on the last 4 vehicles I've owned. I never had the problem with the filter right out of the box. I did run into this very thing after I cleaned and re-oiled my K&N filter though. Even though I used the recommended amount of oil, the oil gummed up the MAFS element and made the SES light come on. I shot a couple short blasts of MAFS cleaner onto the element, cleared the codes, and blew some of the oil out of the filter. I never had any trouble after that.

I'll bet you people are over oiling their filters, and cleaning the MAFS with something other then a cleaner designed for the job. Spraying brake parts cleaner or carb cleaner on a MAFS can ruin it. The right cleaner for the job = no trouble.

You can find dry flow filters for most CAIs. If you're that worried just pick up a dry flow cone filter.

And I will bet you that not only is the possibility of over oiling the filter coming into play, so is the possibility that over oiling the filter might be difficult to prove and / or disprove, and therefore GM might be taking a little advantage here on the warranty replacement issue.
Just my $.02 worth, and that's before Republik of Kalifornication taxes, too.

jwa999
08-17-09, 10:01 PM
CadV had that very problem after he added upper and lower pulley upgrades.
He had used both the short and full w4m intakes. His engine started to act up at higher rpms. Also had a lot of trouble with the MAF location on the full CAI.
I had to buy a new supercharger so he could restore to stock so the dealer could anayze the problem.
He eventually returned the CAI and handheld to w4m.

I had the tranny problem, have had no problem with the handheld other than Jesse never send me any requested upgrade.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176074-people-not-getting-thier-emailed-tunes.html

I guess the caddy is very good at sucking the oil out of the filters.

Hans.

Gary Wells
08-17-09, 10:14 PM
Was CadV's an auto tranny or a manual?

cad fan
08-17-09, 10:57 PM
Thanks for your information ! I don't know if the problem was from over oiling filter or not . Any intake out there that the MAF sensor is in the right place for pulley mods and tune , won't run lean on top end? The wait4me intake is adjustable anyone had luck with this intake or should I run with stock box with the bottom cut out?

whisler151
08-17-09, 11:55 PM
Was CadV's an auto tranny or a manual?

Auto. The oil from the K&N messed up his MAF. Dealer would not cover it. I believe there was a GM bulletin regarding this. They are now keeping an eye out for K&N like filters and issues they are causing due to the oil used in them.

Seems they are a lot more strict 2008+.

Tony407
08-18-09, 01:34 AM
I've had other cars with CAI or short ram intake systems and have only had one MAF go bad. One would think that the longer the intake tube and the farther away the filter is, the less chance you have of sucking oil into the MAF. This is just speculation on my part, but sounds logical to me. Obviously, over-oiling may foul up your MAF, but even if it's not from too much oil, good luck fighting the dealership with covering it under warranty. My personal opinion is that if you alter the intake and a MAF goes bad, just take your lumps. It's a no-brainer that any MAF failure would not be paid for with an after market intake.

Tony

Gary Wells
08-18-09, 05:03 AM
Auto. The oil from the K&N messed up his MAF. Dealer would not cover it. I believe there was a GM bulletin regarding this. They are now keeping an eye out for K&N like filters and issues they are causing due to the oil used in them.

Seems they are a lot more strict 2008+.

Then that was not the thread / post that I am thinking of. The one that I am thinking of the tranny failure was covered by GM as the MAF failure had nothing to do with the the tranny failure and the wording was posted. The tranny failure was covered by warranty.

CadV
08-18-09, 10:54 AM
I never took my car in but spoke to three service managers. All of them said if it is drivability don't bring the car in with mods or a tune. They copy the tune and send it to GM. I fixed my problems with trial and error and going back to stock except for lower pulley.

My problem stemmed from several things. wait4me 4" intake is a crappy design and fattened my A/F to where the car was lugging. I spoke to several intake makers and take it for what it is worth they felt you should test positioning and statically place it on the kit. If by moving the MAF you change AF the bends are more than likely too aggressive. Also the belt I was using for the upper and lower was slipping on me. Last the K&N messed my MAF up so had to get a new one.

A lot of information being shared regarding air intakes is not accurate. One is the stock tube collapsing once you swap pulleys. I have a friend who put down 577rwhp and the stock intake tube did not budge. I will confirm this once the port and polish on my blower is done.

I have done quite a few comparisons between the modded stock box and aftermarket and I am seeing minimal differences like 5rwhp. The thing that scares me with the cones is how much it fattens A/F without a tune. Add the potential for MAF problems I just don't see the upside for 5rwhp.

I am willing to try other kits but not without some dyno proof. New Era looks like the cleanest kit IMO.

This car is extremely picky or at least mine is. The stock tube and modded airbox seems to feel the best and the dyno numbers are damn close to a 4" intake. I would also leave the TB alone because I have experienced strange behavior with my ported one, granted it could be problematic but downshifting with the paddles shudders the car when I try to apply gas. Once I put the stock TB on the car is fine. These automatics just seem to be picky bitches.

I just recommend taking baby steps guys because every time I make an assumption and try to do several things at once I get smacked in the mouth.

As I said my blower is almost done and I am going to give this thing one more go. My patience is wearing thin I am simply sick of jacking with this thing.

Gary Wells
08-18-09, 12:52 PM
CadV:
Thanks for the info. Very enlightening to say the least. Please keep us posted. I am looking forward to your final results.

musclesbmf
08-18-09, 02:27 PM
Who is porting the blower? Back when I had an 03 Cobra, blower porting was good for 40+ rwhp. That company was Steigmeyer or something close to that...

Thanks,
Mark

CadV
08-18-09, 03:05 PM
Who is porting the blower? Back when I had an 03 Cobra, blower porting was good for 40+ rwhp. That company was Steigmeyer or something close to that...

Thanks,
Mark

SNL Performance, same place that did my tune and installs. Bill does really good work. Our blowers have a ton of surface area to be smoothed out so I am hopeful this will make a difference. I also hoping it brings my hp closer to my tq. I will take pictures when it is done.

Everlast13
08-18-09, 04:07 PM
Interesting article on the internet from K&N. Googled MAF sensors, and found their response to what they called an "urban legend". Basically says the dealerships that are saying their filters are damaging the sensors are full of it. K&N has received these faulty MAF sensors from different dealerships and after their testing, found nothing was caused by their setup. Apparently they have a warranty as well to protect you from dealerships that may try to screw you. Here is the website of the article: www.knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm - Good info maybe to look into if any of us may run into these issues in the future.

ewill3rd
08-19-09, 08:48 AM
I have seen problems with oiled filter elements on a lot of GM cars and light trucks since... well since they have been in use with MAF sensors.
Some are affected by the oil, some alter the airflow in the inlet tube so that the MAF cannot accurately measure the airflow.
It is worse on descreened MAF sensors and on some of our newer sensors that have no screens in them at all.

We can't "copy a tune and send it to GM" the only thing we can do is check the CVN to see if it matches the stock cals.
Not many people even know how to do that but there is a bulletin on how to.

Lots of myths here and a few good facts.

Yes it CAN affect the MAF reading and yes it CAN affect the warranty but at some places this is more of an issue than others.

Apparently I have to go back and start screwing my customers over now based on some of the previous posts... :lol:

CadV
08-19-09, 12:07 PM
We can't "copy a tune and send it to GM" the only thing we can do is check the CVN to see if it matches the stock cals.
Not many people even know how to do that but there is a bulletin on how to.

As someone who went through the problem I can tell you it is not a myth Everlast13. It straight up feels like your transmission is going out.

ewill3rd thanks for clarifying the copy tune!

So can you guys see how many times a ECU has been programmed, or what alterations previous tunes have had?

I guess is there anything outside of just flashing it back to stock that could get us into trouble? I have heard GM will count the key turns.

Thanks again

ewill3rd
08-19-09, 09:34 PM
I am told just today that if an engine or transmission is required from PQC that we have to take a digital photograph of the CVN numbers and email it to our product quality center for their verification before they will ship a warranty transmission or engine.
Just something to consider when tuning a car under warranty.
That is the closest thing to what was discussed earlier I have heard of.

jzchen
10-19-09, 01:21 PM
K&N's own website used to have information not recommending the cotton filters in forced induction applications, something about sucking the small cotton fibers from the filter. Although I couldn't find it right now, I'm sure it was there, and if anyone else can locate it that would be great. There are some filters made with synthetic materials that you can use... Ironically, even though they themselves said this they are practically the only ones I could find that make a filter for my 1985 Mercedes 300D Turbo Diesel!

MartyR
10-19-09, 02:35 PM
I have used K&N for years and have had no problems. I think if you read their directions and let the newly oiled filter sit and soak on some newspaper, both sides, I do this even on the new ones, you won't have any trouble, takes some time but well worth it.

Gary Wells
10-19-09, 03:21 PM
I personally don't think that it is worth the risk of voiding my warranty for the MAF and / or anything else involved to chance going to the dealers with a K & N on my new '09 CTS-V. I think that in this economy some dealers will choose the path of least resistance, the customer instead of disagreeing with GM. Take your chances and roll the dice. Too much to lose on a gamble.

GMX322V S/C
05-27-10, 12:18 AM
...A lot of information being shared regarding air intakes is not accurate. One is the stock tube collapsing once you swap pulleys. I have a friend who put down 577rwhp and the stock intake tube did not budge. I will confirm this once the port and polish on my blower is done.

I have done quite a few comparisons between the modded stock box and aftermarket and I am seeing minimal differences like 5rwhp. The thing that scares me with the cones is how much it fattens A/F without a tune. Add the potential for MAF problems I just don't see the upside for 5rwhp.

I am willing to try other kits but not without some dyno proof. New Era looks like the cleanest kit IMO.

This car is extremely picky or at least mine is. The stock tube and modded airbox seems to feel the best and the dyno numbers are damn close to a 4" intake...CadV, did you ever confirm your stock intake tube was okay after your SC port and polish? How much RWHP were/are you putting down?

cbloveday
05-27-10, 08:48 AM
I also have used K&N for years without issue. I have also used Jesse's setup for 5,000 miles without issue. I removed the CAI to install a catch can. While it was out of the car, I confirmed the brake duct was not removed. I also removed and cleaned the MAF. I have not had issues to date with my MAF or moving the MAF.

I reinstalled the MAF as close to it's original location as possible.

I run 100 unleaded so, if car were to act up, I can usually check off the bad gas box.

Umrswimr
05-27-10, 09:12 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. If you get oil on the MAF, just take it out and clean it.

I've never had an issue with K&N or any other oiled filter in any of my cars.

Jeffrey
05-27-10, 09:57 AM
I also removed and cleaned the MAF.


I wouldn't worry about it. If you get oil on the MAF, just take it out and clean it.


Hi,

What is the best MAF cleaner?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

demorgan59
05-27-10, 10:52 AM
I have the same question. I have a can of CRC MAF cleaner, but haven't used it yet. I took the MAF out to inspect it because I have approximately 1,200 miles on my Jesse mods and wanted to see it the K&N flat panel filter in the modded air box was all OK. I'm detecting a slightly rougher idle at warm up then when first modded, and I thought it might be a dirty MAF. I inspected it under a magnifying glass and it looked perfectly clean, so I reinstalled it without cleaning. Is it possible for it to be "dirty" or "fouled" without being able to see it?

Mike 09 V
05-27-10, 11:54 AM
From what I have read,contamination on the MAF will cause the temperature readings (and thus the air mass readings) to be sluggish, and could cause the car to run lean. K&N says their oil won't ruin a sensor, and guarantees it, but you could contaminate a sensor, ruin your engine and technically there would be nothing wrong with a sensor other than being dirty. K&N also says their filters won't discard oil when properly oiled. There is also the possibility that the PCV hose could put oil in your throttle body, but I think that comes after the MAF sensor in our cars.
Mike

thebigjimsho
05-27-10, 05:37 PM
I'm running a Lingenfelter intake tube off the stock box and stock paper filter. Add Kooks headers, Lingenfelter's 10% overdrive harmonic balancer kit, all tuned by Behe. I'm happy leaving it as is...

cbloveday
05-27-10, 05:54 PM
I used CRC when I cleaned mine.

Halltech
09-25-10, 08:42 PM
knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm

Gary Wells
09-25-10, 08:54 PM
knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm

Hey, I would recognize the Halltech name anywhere, you're Halltech that does the CAI's, huh? Welcome aboard.