: 97 Deville wont start in the morning



hendrob
08-14-09, 12:46 PM
Hi guys, well it does eventually start with a lot of cranking... I hear the fuel pump activate when I turn on the key, I have replaced the FPR ... IS the system supposed to maintain a certain amt of fuel pressure overnight ?? as when I pressed the valve open at the end of the fuel rail before trying to start it one morning there was barely a trickle of fuel there, certainly seemed to be nothing under pressure. Thanks, Bob
Oh and BTW, all day long no starting problems

weister42
08-14-09, 02:33 PM
Does it help it start if you press on the gas pedal?

hendrob
08-14-09, 02:46 PM
Yes, I tried that a few times it seems to make it at least try to fire...
Thanks, Bob

Submariner409
08-14-09, 04:03 PM
Try this: On a cold start, turn the key ON for 5 seconds. Turn it OFF. Do this 3 times - to build up pressure in the fuel supply line............does the car start quickly now ??

If so, it's either a slightly damaged O-ring on the tip of the FPR, a slightly leaky injector (any black smoke on startup ???), or a fault in the fuel pump discharge check valve in the tank.

hendrob
08-14-09, 06:02 PM
ok thanks , I'll try that in the morning and let you know my results !
Bob

hendrob
08-14-09, 06:13 PM
actually just tried that now, key off and on 3 times 5 sec each as the car has been sitting all day.... still an SOB to get started same as it is in the morning..after I DID get it goin it starts great there after. grrrr

creeker
08-14-09, 07:14 PM
Hi guys, well it does eventually start with a lot of cranking... I hear the fuel pump activate when I turn on the key, I have replaced the FPR ... IS the system supposed to maintain a certain amt of fuel pressure overnight ?? as when I pressed the valve open at the end of the fuel rail before trying to start it one morning there was barely a trickle of fuel there, certainly seemed to be nothing under pressure. Thanks, Bob
Oh and BTW, all day long no starting problems+

This sounds the very same as my post of two weeks ago,but it's for my 92 dev. with the 4.9,once it starts it runs beautifully all day,I have received so much advice and opinions (thanks everyone) that I'm taking it to my mechanic to run some test on it, something you can try is get a spray can of throttle body cleaner and spray one or two shots into your throttle body and then try to start it,I did this and it started faster than fast.
Which might suggest a gas bleed down overnight?. I dont think pumping gas pedal will do anything as your car is fuel injected.

weister42
08-14-09, 07:38 PM
+

I dont think pumping gas pedal will do anything as your car is fuel injected.

My car has a hard start issue after the car's warmed up then parked for about an hour, it'll crank for awhile but it'll eventually start and runs just fine. If I press my gas pedal it starts quite a bit faster than if I don't. Been dealing with that issue for the past three years and no mechanic can tell me what's wrong. Replaced FPR and it did nothing. My guess is a leaky injector or something wrong in the gas tank or the fuel pump.

creeker
08-14-09, 08:11 PM
My car has a hard start issue after the car's warmed up then parked for about an hour, it'll crank for awhile but it'll eventually start and runs just fine. If I press my gas pedal it starts quite a bit faster than if I don't. Been dealing with that issue for the past three years and no mechanic can tell me what's wrong. Replaced FPR and it did nothing. My guess is a leaky injector or something wrong in the gas tank or the fuel pump.

I'm far from being a mechanic,just passing along my personal experiences,pumping does nothing for me,maybe with a warm engine there is some inner pressure that pumping releases?,I dont think these two starting
problems have the same causes.

hendrob
08-14-09, 09:08 PM
well I'm going to mess around here for a couple more mornings , then I'm going to take it in. It will never start in the winter if I leave it like this and its a reall pain in the a** to start in the morning now..... instead of getting totally pissed off with it, I'd rather just take it in. thanks guys, Bob

creeker
08-14-09, 09:31 PM
well I'm going to mess around here for a couple more mornings , then I'm going to take it in. It will never start in the winter if I leave it like this and its a reall pain in the a** to start in the morning now..... instead of getting totally pissed off with it, I'd rather just take it in. thanks guys, Bob

Yeh,I usually like to trouble shoot these things myself,but there comes a point when some actual tests will solve the problem,throwing in new parts could also be a waste of money,in the long run your better off paying a mechanic to at least diagnose it,
try that suggestion I made with the throttle body cleaner,it would probably give the mechanic a good clue if it works, (I bet it does) I dont think it's a matter of a "morning cold start" I think it's a matter of how long it sits between starts.

Ranger
08-14-09, 09:40 PM
It is supposed to hold fuel pressure overnight, but even if it doesn't, it will (should) build pressure very fast. IF holding your foot on the pedal a bit helps, then the IAC valve is not opening the idle air circuit or the TB and idle air circuit need a good cleaning. Your first step in diagnosing this should be fuel pressure. Get a gauge on it and see what you have at key on. Until you know that, you are just guessing.

creeker
08-14-09, 09:58 PM
It is supposed to hold fuel pressure overnight, but even if it doesn't, it will (should) build pressure very fast. IF holding your foot on the pedal a bit helps, then the IAC valve is not opening the idle air circuit or the TB and idle air circuit need a good cleaning. Your first step in diagnosing this should be fuel pressure. Get a gauge on it and see what you have at key on. Until you know that, you are just guessing.

Thats why I'm taking it to my mechanic,I dont have the resources to check things out.

Ranger
08-14-09, 10:26 PM
Keep us updated.

creeker
08-14-09, 10:43 PM
Keep us updated.

Yes, I will,thanks for your help with this the last couple of weeks,I already replaced a regulator,(the probe that goes in tight to the thermostat) $44.00 for it and it did nothing, I priced a MAP and they cost $104.00.
Thats why I think I'm better off having it diagnosed instead of buying a bunch of "maybe parts". I'm taking it in on Tuesday.

Ranger
08-14-09, 10:51 PM
Yeah, proper diagnosis is very important. Throwing parts at it until one sticks can get expensive real fast. Can't say I have never done that though. :hide:

creeker
08-14-09, 11:26 PM
Yeah, proper diagnosis is very important. Throwing parts at it until one sticks can get expensive real fast. Can't say I have never done that though. :hide:

Well we supposedly get wiser with age, at times like these I wish we still had manual chokes ,not sophisticated but they sure worked and there was nothing to them.Next I'll be wanting a good old stromberg 97, all you needed for spare parts was some tin foil to take up the wear on the push rod pump.

hendrob
08-15-09, 12:10 AM
I'm going to try the quick start in the morning , I'll let ya know what happened too, thanks guys !

hendrob
08-15-09, 01:50 PM
Sorry I started another thread on fuel pump pressure, If some once can advise me how to delete it I will.
Here are todays findings which maybe someone can shed some light for me... I tested fuel pressure at the rail... 18 pounds with key on... Tried to start the car, wouldn't start... put pedal to the floor and back it tried to fire and backfired a few times.
Hit it with one short burst of quick start and tried it, it started immediately and 30 pounds pressure at the rail when running.... any thoughts ?? thanks, Bob

creeker
08-15-09, 02:45 PM
Sorry I started another thread on fuel pump pressure, If some once can advise me how to delete it I will.
Here are todays findings which maybe someone can shed some light for me... I tested fuel pressure at the rail... 18 pounds with key on... Tried to start the car, wouldn't start... put pedal to the floor and back it tried to fire and backfired a few times.
Hit it with one short burst of quick start and tried it, it started immediately and 30 pounds pressure at the rail when running.... any thoughts ?? thanks, Bob

Aha,I thought the quick start would work,I'm in the same boat as you,I'm
taking my car in on tues. for some tests,will let you know.

hendrob
08-15-09, 03:21 PM
Damn, looks like I may end up doing the same thing =(( seems fuel pressure is ok, maybe someone will come along here with a magic bullet yet !! If not I'll be booking mine in next week too

Ranger
08-15-09, 04:46 PM
30 psi is way to low. that's your problem. You should have 45-50 psi at key on and at idle.

I'll delete your other post.

creeker
08-15-09, 05:55 PM
30 psi is way to low. that's your problem. You should have 45-50 psi at key on and at idle.

I'll delete your other post.

Would this mean it's time for a new fuel pump?. $$$$

Ranger
08-15-09, 07:55 PM
Yup.

creeker
08-15-09, 08:44 PM
Yup.

Do you know if there's a step by step description of how to change a fuel pump in a 92 deville?. I haven't tried search yet

Ranger
08-15-09, 08:59 PM
If there is it will be in the Tech Tips section, but I don't remember if there is or not. Pretty straight forward though. Disconnect the lines, drop the tank, use a screwdriver to tap the lock ring loose, replace pump.

hendrob
08-16-09, 01:02 AM
Thanks Ranger, I took the damn thing in tonight, they are going to disgnose it tomorrow, so we will see if they say the same thing, will keep you updated... I was sick of messing with it. I work from home and the time I spent today getting nowhere with it should have been spent indoors making money so I took it in.
Bob

hendrob
08-16-09, 01:03 AM
Thanks also for deleting the other post.

hendrob
08-17-09, 03:59 PM
Well car is back from the shop... same as you said Ranger.... fuel pump.. they wanted 905.00 total to fix it, 456.00 for the pump and sending unit alone.... I paid 75.00 for the diagnosis and brought it home, ordered a pump and filter off ebay for 78.00 when it gets here I will put it in, I just had the sending unit out of the tank 2 months ago to put the sensor on the sending unit for the fuel level and the sending unit seemed fine, so just ordered the pump, will keep u posted... car is still fine all day to drive, just overnight it needs a shot of quick start and it fires right up

hendrob
08-17-09, 08:39 PM
Just another question as Im trying to understand this thing.. once the car starts is there anything else that assists in pumping the fuel besides the pump in the tank ?? Just seems weird to me that it runs so well when its running and wont start in the monring, I can press the pedal to the floor at 50 and it goes like hell with no hesitation. I always thought a fuel pump either worked or didnt work but guess i was mistaken

Ranger
08-17-09, 08:48 PM
Just another question as Im trying to understand this thing.. once the car starts is there anything else that assists in pumping the fuel besides the pump in the tank ??
No.

I always thought a fuel pump either worked or didnt
Not always true. Sometimes they just get weak, but won't die. I had one that would fall flat on it's face at WOT. Otherwise you'd never know it had a problem. Another that would just up and quit at cruise, but always restarted. Another that was a hard starter. I've seen one (a friends) that died in it's sleep. Drove fine, shut down and never restarted.

creeker
08-17-09, 09:57 PM
Well car is back from the shop... same as you said Ranger.... fuel pump.. they wanted 905.00 total to fix it, 456.00 for the pump and sending unit alone.... I paid 75.00 for the diagnosis and brought it home, ordered a pump and filter off ebay for 78.00 when it gets here I will put it in, I just had the sending unit out of the tank 2 months ago to put the sensor on the sending unit for the fuel level and the sending unit seemed fine, so just ordered the pump, will keep u posted... car is still fine all day to drive, just overnight it needs a shot of quick start and it fires right up

Well at least you have an answer, I was supposed to take mine in tomorrow to have it checked out,my mechanic phoned today to say he has to go in for an operation,(the nerve of some guys),I wont get mine in till next week,
I'm interested where you got your pump from, was it on e-bay canada?.

hendrob
08-17-09, 11:03 PM
Hey Ranger thanks for the info, sounds like they all act differently when they are about to pooch !!
Creeker, the pump was on Ebay US. its the only guy on there selling the pump only for a 97 Deville and not the entire sending unit , it was 77.95 for the pump only the guy is in California I think... I live 30 miles from Detroit and have a buddy in Michigan, so I have the pump sent to his place and he will bring it this weekend he has a cottage over here. I HOPE that the pump will be the only problem !!!

creeker
08-17-09, 11:59 PM
Hey Ranger thanks for the info, sounds like they all act differently when they are about to pooch !!
Creeker, the pump was on Ebay US. its the only guy on there selling the pump only for a 97 Deville and not the entire sending unit , it was 77.95 for the pump only the guy is in California I think... I live 30 miles from Detroit and have a buddy in Michigan, so I have the pump sent to his place and he will bring it this weekend he has a cottage over here. I HOPE that the pump will be the only problem !!!

Well thats great having a friend in the states and delivered right to the door, pretty hard to beat, I found one for my 92 sdv. in texas,I think it was around $65.00, I'm too afraid to send any financial info ( visa) over the internet. Let us know how you made out installing the pump.

hendrob
08-18-09, 10:52 AM
Well Creeker, I sell on ebay www.sherrison.com I have my CC filed with them and use Paypal for my payments, Paypal is secure you will have no problem using your CC ... If you want to buy off ebay they require sellers to take only Paypal now. Ya its pretty hard to buy online if you dont like to give your CC number. will keep you posted on the pump

hendrob
08-22-09, 12:06 PM
Well, my buddy is bringing the fuel pump over from MI today, so going to try to get the car blocked high enough in the garage to get the tank down far enough to get the sending unit out tonight..... Im still sitting here thinking about this old pump...maybe Ranger or someone is around today to answer this question... My findings with the old pump showed a pressure of 18 pounds with key on and 30 pounds with the engine running. My question is WHY would the pressure vary with key on and when the engine is running ?? If the pump has power, the pump is a pump right ?? why does the pressure vary ?? If the pump has power , shouldnt the pressure be the same weather the engine is on or off ???
Thanks, Bob

jeffrsmith
08-22-09, 01:07 PM
What about your battery voltage?

Difference between key on and running is the alternator charging the battery. If you have a weak battery the pump may not be running to peak performance with just key on, but when the car is started and the alternator is charging at 14.5 volts it is.

Just a thought.

Ranger
08-22-09, 05:11 PM
:hmm: Maybe a stuck open check valve at the pump? The only difference I can think of is at key on there is no vacuum to the FPR. That said, I think it should be about the same anyway.

hendrob
08-22-09, 11:50 PM
Thanks guys well hopefully I can check that valve tomorrow and I HOPE this pump is the only problem !!! will put her on tomorrow and report back to you guys tomorrow night, thanks again, Bob

hendrob
08-23-09, 04:40 PM
Well reporting back, filthy dirty but successful. !! Got the tank out, the new pump installed and got it all back together, it started right up . Now I have 50 pounds pressure with key on, backing off to 40 ... it was 18 with the old pump.... Fired right up, the pump kit off ebay also come with 2 new filters. The sending unit came apart easily for the pump replacement, it all went very well... so I have 77.95 invested rather than the 905.00 the dealer wanted !!!!
Thanks guys for all your input !!
Bob

Ranger
08-23-09, 09:03 PM
:thumbsup:

hendrob
08-23-09, 09:24 PM
Right On , Ranger !! You were 100% correct, had I seen your post before i dropped the car at the garage, I would ahve saved another 75.00 !! Still pleased tho, thanks again

creeker
08-23-09, 10:35 PM
Right On , Ranger !! You were 100% correct, had I seen your post before i dropped the car at the garage, I would ahve saved another 75.00 !! Still pleased tho, thanks again

Good news, congrats on getting your new pump installed,I'm very interested in how much of a job it was to remove the tank, any tips?.

hendrob
08-24-09, 12:25 AM
Hey Creeker, well its a job, and you have to have the car jacked up in the front and the rear I used my ramps on the front and blocked up the wheels in the back. I took the driver side strap off and the rear bolt of the passengers side and let it tilt down so I could remove the 3 fuel lines that go into the sending unit.. the clips push in and the hoses come off... The exhaust heat shield will be in the way for the front passenger side strap bolt, I just bent the stap down and left the strap attached and made a couple cuts in the shield so the tank would drop down.. You also need to remove the fill tube hose and the return hose. then just slide the tank out from under the car... Like I said, i did it but its not easy... dunno what kind of experience you have or if you have air tools... the air gun is great for zapping the bolts in while you are trying to hold the damned tank up with your shoulder while lying on your back !!!!!

creeker
08-24-09, 11:16 AM
Hey Creeker, well its a job, and you have to have the car jacked up in the front and the rear I used my ramps on the front and blocked up the wheels in the back. I took the driver side strap off and the rear bolt of the passengers side and let it tilt down so I could remove the 3 fuel lines that go into the sending unit.. the clips push in and the hoses come off... The exhaust heat shield will be in the way for the front passenger side strap bolt, I just bent the stap down and left the strap attached and made a couple cuts in the shield so the tank would drop down.. You also need to remove the fill tube hose and the return hose. then just slide the tank out from under the car... Like I said, i did it but its not easy... dunno what kind of experience you have or if you have air tools... the air gun is great for zapping the bolts in while you are trying to hold the damned tank up with your shoulder while lying on your back !!!!!


Thank you,doesn't sound like a fun job.

hendrob
08-24-09, 09:15 PM
LOL, Nope, I've done things that are more fun !!