: Cadillac/GM's "REAL" Problem -- Its sad



D_Lac
08-13-09, 03:27 PM
The turn signal thread is really a funny thread, I don't think the turn signal is really a "big" issue lol, but I do think it shows an underline problem in the entire GM philosophy which caused the company to go bankrupt and Americans to pick foreign brands over them.

That problem is the fact that GM with its "My grand dad's technology is still good" mentality has shameless driven most younger buyers and foreigners away from the company. I have no idea why we are sooooo far behind the curve on new innovative technologies in cars, it is really frustrating and shameful. The Mercedes Benz's and BMW's of the 90s are still ahead of our present day cars, thats "INSANE"!!

Case and Point: A group of students from Stanford University designed an autonomous system for an car and programmed it to drive itself ~130+ miles on its own in the desert, during the night and day, and guess what that car actually made it to the finish line unharmed, it took them one year to do it (build the autonomous system, the car made the trip in a matter of hours). To top that off the next year they did the same thing in a suburb of California with dozens of other autonomous cars, people driven cars, and pedestrians in the mix where the car was expect to follow all the rules of the road without fault on its own, basically the car took a driver's exam and guess what it passed with flying colors.

This makes the GM look really bad, I mean really bad if you took a good look at the technologies on Benzs and Beamers you'd probably be in tears, its just sad how far behind we are and for no apparent reason. GM simply doesn't understand that the modern day car buyer expects more from a car than their grand dad did and unlike my grand dad most of us are not afraid of a computer soo new tech in a car won't intimidate us.


Here is a link to the stuff I was talking about take a look you probably won't believe your eyes. It has videos of the whole documentary free you can view it online. It was called "The Great Robot Race."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/darpa/

The Tony Show
08-13-09, 04:14 PM
It's a well known fact that the STS is on life support- it's just hanging around until the XTS replaces it in 2011, so Cadillac isn't going to waste the money improving it when it's already on the way out.

As a point of interest, almost every single GM car (that isn't scheduled to be discontinued) has this feature you blame their bankruptcy on, and has for several years. In addition, GM cars have a lot of exciting features that you don't see on Mercedes or BMW (such as OnStar, Magnetic Ride Control, Stabilitrak and others), and most importantly, the features on GM cars actually work most of the time. Perhaps in the rush to put all of the electronic gadgetry on the Mercedes before ensuring it all works properly is why their ratings for initial quality have plummeted below the industry average in recent years?

Food for thought. :)

MacMuse
08-13-09, 04:28 PM
I lay some of this blame at "our" own doorstep. Company's the size of GM certainly have access to the knowledge workers necessary to execute technical advancements of the style you refer, so what other factors prevent them from implementing them?

Look at the underlying culture of America, GM's backyard and playground. As a culture, Americans are far less likely to take to technical advancements en masse compared to the citizens of Japan and Europe. Excluding the iPhone phenomenon, Europe and Japan have access to and USE more advanced cell phone handsets than available to the U.S. market. Motorola pushed the envelope once, but than sat on the basic RAZR technology and styling until it became a non-player. Nokia, Samsung, and the rest keep bringing new advancements to market.

At the heart of this differences, IMO, is our Marketing based economy. And apparently based on the thousands of customer surveys run by U.S. conglomerations, "we" want stupid cars and phones. The local we (this forum) just don't make enough of a dent in that marketing survey analysis to push GM and others toward faster rollouts of technological advancements.

Or maybe it's all the lawyers. ;)

WillySTS
08-13-09, 04:52 PM
The problem isn't GM...it's you(or us...anyway,the American Society) and the very things you talk about. Is what you do or the business you are in leading in technology or anything...this is America...we're the best at everything!!!
REALLY?...Do you have a Motorola cell phone?...Do you have a Zenith TV?...get my point...the problem ain't just GM. We should all strive to be the best in the world, just like you expect GM to do.

I have worked in the car business in car dealeships since 1970, with 27 of those year with Mazda, and I felt that american cars were inferior technology most of that time. Shortly after 911 the dealer I was working for at the time announced it would have to close soon. I took that opportunity to work the rest of my carrer in a GM dealership, which is where I am today, and they do need quality people...that is the problem.

D_Lac
08-13-09, 04:52 PM
The Tony Show:
Dont' get me wrong I love the 08 STS.

However I'm not quite sure I know of any numbers and statistics to support what you are saying, and I'm not sure what "feature" you are referring to, but I wasn't pointing out one feature but the lack of any of interest until just recently. Some of the features you mentioned are pretty cool, onstar, magnetic ride control don't know about stability trak not sure it really works well.

Check out the features on the STS competitors --->, and see how the Cadillac isn't even mentioned as a competitor. Why?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGleo9EgCYc&feature=channel


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRwwMs7JvpU&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9VOc-zBWlA&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml1nVu4qd5k


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANN0ezr1f5Y

D_Lac
08-13-09, 05:01 PM
WillySTS and MacMuse you both make very good points, but I still believe that GM just turning the crank on the same old same old, is what put it in the hole today. I get what you guys are saying and although I didn't think of it before I do agree. Good points.

The Tony Show
08-13-09, 05:03 PM
Here's the numbers from JD Power and Associates that show Cadillac rated higher in both initial quality and appealing layout of features and ergonomics than all foreign competitors except Lexus. Notice that Mercedes Benz rates below the industry average in initial quality, a rating that is partially determined by how many problems people have with those whiz-bang features during the first 90 days of ownership.

I'm not saying Cadillac hasn't lagged behind in technology through the 90's and early 2000's, but their implementation of tech and quality today is far beyond what the average person expects it to be.

Click the images to make them larger.

D_Lac
08-13-09, 05:12 PM
Tony

Thanks for the Stats and info pretty cool, but here is a hardcore fact I just bought an 08 STS with 1400 miles with Navi and most of the creature comforts for $20,000 I can't get a 08 comparable E-Class or BMW 5 for anywhere near that, so I get what the numbers are saying but they don't add up in price in any dealership I went to, but thanks for the facts, can you provides some links as to where you got them. I'd like to take a look.

The Tony Show
08-13-09, 05:26 PM
The E class and 5 series aren't about to be discontinued, so their resale value is better. Simple car business 101.

Now compare a 2009 CTS-V resale value to a 2009 BMW M5- the CTS-V is $30k cheaper brand new, but holds nearly the exact same value as the M5 when you compare them used. Why such a different situation with resale between the CTS-V and STS? The CTS-V is in demand, and there are no rebates or finance offers on it- that makes it hold the value. The STS garners average (at best) reviews, and is loaded up with incentives. Combine that with the fact that everyone knows it's on its last legs, and that makes for a crummy resale.

I had a 2005 STS 1SC and loved it. Enjoy the fact that you bought one heck of a nice car for a dirt cheap price. :thumbsup:

D_Lac
08-13-09, 07:30 PM
My gripe isn't on the STS its on its on GM's philosophy to move along in tech as slow as possible so as to not upset anyone's grand dad. Thats what I can't take.

Our cars should be a lot smarter, more efficient, things like car collisions should be a thing of the past by now, the tech is there it can be done, hell some students at Stanford did it in a year. GM car driving dynamics and stability should be light years ahead of where we are now the tech is there but not the application at least not in our cars ( few videos showing this below take a look).

Our connectivity is weak when compared to other cars, and don't mention our navigation system, my god does it really even work. Other features just blow your mind, park assist, remote park assist, pre-safe, the list goes on and on take a look at some more videos of other cars companies and compare.

-- Connectivity like GMs ONstar


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asLozv1teGw

-- pre-safe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlu4H70qAJQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4PF74_Y_bM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wja6wCZP9l0&feature=channel

-- remote park assist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIL_pl7jxGQ&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0BHPPPCxRc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQq-4KYBxsI&feature=fvw no caddy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoRLe3qj7YE&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3lU4DoqeLM&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAxZvMwUdEE -- caddy mentioned

K STS
08-13-09, 07:32 PM
What exactly are these features you keep talking about? I looked at a BMW 750, and the STS actually had more features I was interested in. I still have yet to see foreign cars with larger than a 6" factory nav screen, or a touchscreen 6 disc DVD changer, 15 speaker surround, intellibeam, lane departure warning, LED tail lighting, dual front projectors, etc.

The DTS has a feature where it tells you if a car is in your blind spot, or a car approaching your blind spot by showing an orange car in your side view mirrors - and flashes it if there is an approaching car. I still havn't see this feature on the 745/750, Lexus IS 350, or G37. In fact, one of the only features I could find that the 750 had over my STS was power bottom seat retraction.

A few features that kept me in the STS over the 5 or 7 series did not have was keyless start with a remote fob, keyless remote door entry, factory remote start, park assist, dual exhaust exits (5 series,) the large bose navigation screen, and a 320hp V8.

So what exactly are these must have technological features your keep mentioning? Please tell me it isnt the "one touch, turn signal flashes three times" turn signal lever, because that isnt what I would call a feature that would make or break my decision among cars.

D_Lac
08-13-09, 07:43 PM
KSTS

Take a look at the videos right above your postabove for starters and just attempt to google the rest but it is a laundry list. Some are comparable but not most. The videos above show some of the following. Comparing a BMW 750 to an STS, come on man I know this is a Cadillac board but there is no comparason there, lets keep it real.

Pre-Safe

Brake Assist Plus

ESP -- A stability system that works

Remote Park Assist

Dynamic stability control

21 way contour seats

382hp

etc ... etc

amgqmp1
08-14-09, 06:04 PM
Mercedes and BMW and fine cars. I've owned both. Let me tell you why I don't any longer...

TCO (Total Cost of Operation)

My 1997 E320 couldn't get a basic alignment at anywhere but the dealer (or an independent shop that owns the proprietary, prohibitively expensive tools), $200. The proper procedure for removing the oil (during an oil change) is to use a fluid extractor ($60+ purchase). Tires started at $150/per. It required premium unleaded (extra $0.30/gallon here). It also wasn't free of manufacturing defects (e.g. rust on spring perches was very common...and I'll let you imagine what happens when a spring perch fails...thankfully, I never experienced that disaster).

I don't have a lot to rag on BMW about...mine was a '78 7-series from Germany. I do recall it having a massively overcomplicated series of tubes for the windshield washers... ;)

My drivers seat may squeak, my climate control system may make less civil noises, and my stock tires may suck...but, I'd say that being able to start and stop a car without taking the key out of your pocket is pretty cool technology. :thumbsup:

The Tony Show
08-14-09, 10:25 PM
Pre-Safe (Cadillacs have seatbelt pretensioners)

Brake Assist Plus (Cadillacs have panic brake assist)

ESP -- A stability system that works (Stabilitrak allows throttle control during activation- ESP does not)

Dynamic stability control (Again- stabilitrak works incredibly well- they use it on Le Mans and SCCA race cars)


As far as some of the other stuff, I think you need to look at how it enhances the driving, safety or performance of the car (or if it does at all). Remote backing out of the garage? Really? Just what I need- to pay $75,000 for something that can malfunction and run over my kids. 382hp? Please- Cadillac has engines with as much as 556hp available right now, and for less than the BMW with 328hp.

The problem is simple- you, and most of the rest of the public think that GM is still behind in technology, when in fact they aren't.

A $59,000 2009 CTS-V is faster in a straight line, better handling, better braking and faster around a road course than a BMW E550. It has tons of features that the BMW lacks such as OnStar, Panic brake assist, 40gb HDD for music storage, standard XM, standard alcantara seat inserts, standard 6 piston Brembo brakes, and a 556hp Supercharged V8. A 2009 E 550 has none of those features standard, a measly 382hp engine, and has a base MSRP of $63,200.

So the Caddy is faster, more high tech, better handling, has a better resale value and is less expensive. Tell me again how that equates to "GM driving dynamics and tech" being behind ze Germans?

Superjim
08-15-09, 07:22 AM
KSTS

Take a look at the videos right above your postabove for starters and just attempt to google the rest but it is a laundry list. Some are comparable but not most. The videos above show some of the following. Comparing a BMW 750 to an STS, come on man I know this is a Cadillac board but there is no comparason there, lets keep it real.

Pre-Safe
Brake Assist Plus
ESP -- A stability system that works
Remote Park Assist
Dynamic stability control
21 way contour seats
382hp
etc ... etc


I know y'all are talking about the STS...not the DTS...but they both use the same Stabilitrac system

IT DOES WORK...and works well.
I know. :) :)

Recently i was making a little business trip in the rain.
It was raining really, really hard and had been for several hours.
I was driving way too fast for the conditions.
Running about 75 or 80 mph, when a MAXIMUM SAFE SPEED would have been about 50.

I was in the left lane and had just passed two 18 wheelers, when I hit some deep water on the road and hydroplaned...BIG TIME.

The car just suddenly just "SNAPPED" around 90 degrees to the left and I was looking at the center median, thru the windshield instead of the road.

I instinctively "JERKED" the wheel back to the right and the car SNAPPED around 180 degrees and now I am looking right across the front bumper of the 18 wheeler at the ditch on the right hand side of the road.

I jerked it to the left, but not quite as hard and it IMMEDIATELY was suddenly back STRAIGHT...and still in it's lane.

In the 2 or 3 seconds that all this took...(it felt like 10 minutes)... I could feel the various brakes and other components working...trying to compensate for the car not going straight, and straighten the car out.

I credit the Stabilitrac with keeping the car on the road and assisting with keeping it under control.
If I had been in a lesser automobile, I may or may not, would be here now, writing this little message.

I had a mental picture in my head of the car going into the center median and rolling several times, when it first snapped 90 degrees sideways at better than 75 mph.

Thats "EXACTLY" what any lessor car would have done.
Survival would be very problematic at that speed in those conditions.

During all of this, I never touched the brake pedal...(really wasn't enough time)...till after it was all straightened out.
Then I slowed my DUMB A$$ down. :)

Texas Jim

c5 rv
08-15-09, 07:37 AM
About the ony whiz-bang feature Cadillacs lack is the automatic parking assist, which I want no part of. If a parking spot looks too tight for you to use with your own driving skills, the other spots around it will also likely be too tight for other drivers to exit / enter without hitting your parked car.

grilco
08-15-09, 08:02 AM
Tony

Thanks for the Stats and info pretty cool, but here is a hardcore fact I just bought an 08 STS with 1400 miles with Navi and most of the creature comforts for $20,000 I can't get a 08 comparable E-Class or BMW 5 for anywhere near that, so I get what the numbers are saying but they don't add up in price in any dealership I went to, but thanks for the facts, can you provides some links as to where you got them. I'd like to take a look.


You got one hell of a buy at $20,000. I'd jump all over that with those features. May I ask where you are from and what dealer offered this? That is incredible for an 08 STS. BTW enjoy it and good luck with it.

ewill3rd
08-15-09, 09:37 AM
The problem here is that people draw conclusions based on minute observations and then shout them from the top of a hill.

Where is GM's philosophy of "staying behind" published?
Where has GM said "the status quo is fine with us and we want to lag behind the imports"?
It's conjecture and made up fallacies.

The truth is that GM makes competitive products at a decent market price considering how the UAW has them over a barrel.
GM built a fleet of cars in the 90's that would drive themselves on an automated highway and did lots of testing in CA on public highways.
I know that GM is working on all kinds of stuff including hydrogen fuel cell and crash avoidance technology. Try visiting GM's corportate website before you start bragging about how "behind" they are.

The Stabilitrak system has proven incredibly effective and has been in cars for over a decade now.

Imports might be great, I don't know and I really don't care. Cadillac has a very respectable warranty, a competitive product, and the integration of all this silly gadgetry it proceeding at a reasonable pace. If you want to be swayed by some car company that makes a cost intensive vehicle to maintain just because it has some cool toy built into it then by all means go right ahead.
Changing existing systems and adding "toys" requires engineering and it costs money to implement changes. If you are willing to increase the amount you'd like to pay I'm sure they'd be happy to put satellite TV and a stripper pole in the car. I think they are more concerned with making a good product with competitive features and maintaining the price level so that they actually have a market. Let's not even mention goverment mandates on safety and emissions controls that they have to meet also.

This tired or rhetoric of "Cadillac sucks because they don't do things the way I think they should" is getting so old.
If you people really believe that then sell your Caddy, go buy one of these overpriced Euro-trash cars and pat yourself on the back until you dislocate your shoulder.
The biggest problem with American carmakers over the last 2 decades has been with Americans. The press is out to get them, they slam them at every opportunity while they ignore the imports for doing worse. The American public is sue happy and I have never seen such whining in my life before.
I can't believe that you think a carmaker is substandard because the turn signals don't flash 3 times by themselves.... Thank God that America wasn't founded by modern society. We probably would have turned the boats around and gone home because they don't have HDTV.

Rant off....

amgqmp1
08-15-09, 11:26 AM
The Stabilitrak system has proven incredibly effective and has been in cars for over a decade now.

If you are willing to increase the amount you'd like to pay I'm sure they'd be happy to put satellite TV and a stripper pole in the car.

Agreed on Stabilitrak. It has helped me navigate roads in conditions where a RWD STS should never have been.

Also, for a fee (and a signed liability waiver) I will gladly install a satellite TV equipped stripper pole in any car. ;)

On a only slightly more serious note...

The perception of poor quality is not primarily caused by the media. It has a lot of help from people that spent good money on (comparatively) junk cars (e.g. nearly everything coming from GM starting in the 70s and running through the early/mid-90s). Combine a long period of poor quality with dominating competition (e.g. Toyota and Honda), and you get a less than rosy perception amongst the masses. Like it or not, they have a long road ahead to steering perception back in their direction...

...and I think most cars in the 21st century Cadillac line-up (sorry '10 SRX) are in the right lane, and going the right direction on that long road.

C&C
08-15-09, 11:29 AM
+1 'ewill'

Cadillac has some great stuff out there NOW (with a lot more in the pipeline). John McElroy interviewed Ed Welburn at the Woodward Cruise on "AutoLine After Hours" and mentioned the new smaller Caddy (and was quite confident that it would be class leading; he's comparing it to the BMW 3's) so that will be nice to see when it arrives.

ewill3rd
08-15-09, 12:06 PM
Think about the perception of imports in the 70's vs what it is now.
The 80's was an awful time period for every carmaker, everything was crap, trust me I worked on all of it.
From VW to Rolls Royce, not a car out there didn't have issues.
What kicked the American carmaker's butts in the 90's is that some import carmakers really pushed in the 90's to figure out how to meet the government regulations for fuel efficiency by using tiny motors. The American car buyer has always wanted more power, more displacement, and more bells and whistles.
The last decade has seen the most impressive horsepower per liter improvements ever and now GM is working their tails off to meet your power demand with a smaller engines and alternative fuels and the gov't is about ready to smack them back a few billion in R&D by imposing even stricter standards.

If you look back at the heyday of American car companies you'll see there was limited competition and yeah maybe they even got a little lazy back then.
Nowadays they are working hard in a heavily loaded marketplace with more choices than you can shake a stick at.
Someone will always have some cool feature that maybe GM hasn't got but when it all comes down to it an American worked hard to design a car, an American worked hard to build it, and a lot of us Americans work hard to keep them running the way they are supposed to be.

That's really probably all I should say.

I respect the opinions of those that like foreign cars, they do make some nice stuff. Even though GM does stuff that pisses me off I still support the brand and my country and the hard working Americans that do their jobs every day to keep them coming off the assembly line.

My issue is this is a Cadillac board and no one is forcing you to love Cadillac. If you don't like them, don't buy them.

If Mercedes is so great, or Lexus, or Nissan, then go buy one. I can assure you they have mechanics in their dealerships and none of them are going hungry.

Lord Cadillac
08-15-09, 02:26 PM
I can't believe that you think a carmaker is substandard because the turn signals don't flash 3 times by themselves.

I agree with most of what you have to say.. However, the 3-flash blinking turn signal is just something one expects in a luxury vehicle of this stature. Attention to detail.. This is something Cadillac should not have forgotten or thrifted out. Luxury buyers expect unnecessary things in their luxury vehicles.

Same goes for Lexus, who's probably doing more thrifting out than Cadillac these days. The new RX has minor issues that I would certainly not expect from a company "pursuing perfection". These issues we're speaking of here do not make a carmaker "substandard" at all. However, they're certainly leaving something to be desired. And when you're paying a lot of money for a vehicle, that's never a good thing...

K STS
08-15-09, 02:31 PM
There are some really great posts here. I wish we could give reputation points on this form.

inurok
08-15-09, 06:11 PM
I agree that Cadillac cheaped out on a lot of features with the STS. My 2003 745i was a way better car in many ways and BMW customer service is the best I have ever experienced.

That said I decided to give GM a try again. My first GM was a brand new 2005 Bonneville GXP which was very problem prone. Customer service was the pits as well a quality. Anyway I vowed never to buy a NEW GM ever again and since the STS-V is such a great value I bought a 2006.

Had the car about 4 months now and so far I have had to have the engine and transmission replaced. GM customer service for Cadillac is outsourced somewhere because every rep i speak to even supervisors have deep accents but names like Mr Jone & Ms edwards lol.

Anyway I mostly have a problem with the GM dealers than GM itself. I have dealed with 4 dealers so far and all of them lag behind BMW in customer service and dealer experience. I hope the new GM will put a tighter grip on dealers and their customer service.

GM as a company has been making some great cars lately and offeing good incentives but the same old dealers that imo have been around too long and just done care like they should.

Things the STS should have
3 blink blinkers
power fold mirrors
reverse camera
better audio
HID high beams
power trunk
bigger glove box
lighted storage box
Massage seats

I know that would drive up the price but when you are buying a flagship I want to be offered everything

Force-1
08-15-09, 07:49 PM
I'm not getting why anyone is comparing the 7-Series Bimmer against the STS. The 7 costs about $25K more, so it should have more features.....duh!

Just for the record, I've owned a '97 528i, '99 540i, '99 740iL, and '01 740i Sport (great car). We stopped being BMW people for 2 reasons:

1 - The Bangle designed E65 was just plain ugly--couldn't bring myself to buy one. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/ack2.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/puke.gif

2 - A US manufacturer finally released a decent RWD V8 powered sport sedan--the Lincoln LS. Bought an '02 LSE, and really liked it. Ditto on the STS--American made!

My wife and I have purchased/leased over 20 new vehicles since 1987, and the biggest POS, by far, was the '97 528i.

inurok
08-15-09, 08:38 PM
My wife and I have purchased/leased over 20 new vehicles since 1987, and the biggest POS, by far, was the '97 528i.

Meh I have had POS cars before but as long as the dealer treats me right I will deal with it. Only reason I sold the BMW was because the warranty just expired. BMW prices come with BMW service I guess?

Btw sts-v costs like the same as a BMW 7 series so thats why they are being compared duh...

ewill3rd
08-15-09, 10:19 PM
Having watched GM over the years I can tell you that when they roll out features like this they integrate them into the next upfitting.
I don't know why they didn't do this with STS but I am sure from an engineering standpoint it wasn't feasible and I am confident that with the way they have been rolling this out into new models that it will end up in STS provided STS stays around.

Sadly STS is one of the most underappreciated cars we make.
I love them, they are much more roomy and more comfortable to drive than a CTS. The only sticking point I really see on STS since the '05 came out is the nav radio. It was plagued in early production with software issues and bluetooth integration was lackluster at best. We still have issues with devices not working properly right up until the switch to BT in the OnStar module.. those are much more compatible and seem to be much more reliable.

Sorry if I popped my cork there, I am a bit passionate sometimes and my fuse has been burning pretty short these days. Lots of stress.
I even go to bat for a lot of you guys when I have engineers on the phone... ;)
I still wish they'd check with me more before they do stuff... but alas they haven't figured that out yet... :lol:

I worked for a guy that had a 5 series once, after I fixed some completely lame mechanical issues I let myself down even more by driving his "baby". It was a dog, uncomfortable, and from my perspective pretty sloppily put together.
I don't drive many imports, don't want to... If I had the scratch I'd probably buy an STS... but then again I don't have a problem holding the turn signal lever down to get 3 clicks... :lol:
I think I have a different perspective than most of you do.
I see the worst of everything....

widmann@hotmail.com
08-17-09, 09:38 AM
Great series of posts here.. I love my STS and very happy with my purchase.. I agree with inurok

the STS has fallen short in these area's

3 blink blinkers
power fold mirrors
reverse camera
better audio
HID high beams
power trunk
bigger glove box
NAv features that are functional when i need them


Things i love about my STS

More gadgets than i can learn how to use (or care too)
More power than i should have..
Luxury and looks that stand up to any import

One last point which i think is overlooked.. I'm an computer guy.. Over the past 5-7 years I have seen many American jobs go over sea’s to cheap offshore labor.. I am very sensitive to american jobs going offshore. So, I do my best to buy cars that are manufactured in American (differant than american cars). While my STS is certainly not a compromise, i get the added satisfaction of buying American and supporting our economy.

D_Lac
08-17-09, 10:24 AM
Pre-Safe (Cadillacs have seatbelt pretensioners)

Brake Assist Plus (Cadillacs have panic brake assist)

ESP -- A stability system that works (Stabilitrak allows throttle control during activation- ESP does not)

Dynamic stability control (Again- stabilitrak works incredibly well- they use it on Le Mans and SCCA race cars)


As far as some of the other stuff, I think you need to look at how it enhances the driving, safety or performance of the car (or if it does at all). Remote backing out of the garage? Really? Just what I need- to pay $75,000 for something that can malfunction and run over my kids. 382hp? Please- Cadillac has engines with as much as 556hp available right now, and for less than the BMW with 328hp.

The problem is simple- you, and most of the rest of the public think that GM is still behind in technology, when in fact they aren't.

A $59,000 2009 CTS-V is faster in a straight line, better handling, better braking and faster around a road course than a BMW E550. It has tons of features that the BMW lacks such as OnStar, Panic brake assist, 40gb HDD for music storage, standard XM, standard alcantara seat inserts, standard 6 piston Brembo brakes, and a 556hp Supercharged V8. A 2009 E 550 has none of those features standard, a measly 382hp engine, and has a base MSRP of $63,200.

So the Caddy is faster, more high tech, better handling, has a better resale value and is less expensive. Tell me again how that equates to "GM driving dynamics and tech" being behind ze Germans?


Tony I can see you "LOVE" GM and Cadillac and thats cool I love caddys too but I'm not sure the comparisons you are making are fair. You are comparing a CTS-V to a BMW 5 series, and a Benz E-Class that doesn't make much sense to me, the prices might be similar but so are the prices of Apples and Oranges but they are not the same. A CTS-v should be compared to a BMW M3 or a Benz C-Class AMG, now that apples to apples, at least to me. And I'm not talking about the CTS-V or STS-V, I'm talking about the base luxury cars, not the rocket ships each manufacture makes, not interested in that really.

You say caddys are faster, ook well I'm really not thinking of racing a luxury car anyway so speed and hp aren't the factors I would put in the mix. For me when it comes to a luxury car I want tech, and creature comfort features, thats just me and here are a few from the boys from Germany which caddys don't have.

Multi-level driver adjustable ride height.
Message seats.
Bolsters that automatically hold you in place while cornering.
Cooled and heated cup holders.
Driver adjustable engine horse power output.
Rear refrigerator.
4 zone climate control.
Rear reclining seats.
Heated and cooled seats ( not heated and vented )
Intelligent braking with moister and heat detection. ( look at the films I posted)
Night view assist, with pedestrian recognition.
Park assist with wheel alignment and steering assist. ( films I posted )

Tony
"Pre-Safe (Cadillacs have seatbelt pretensioners)"

-- Its doesn't adjust the seat, windows, sunroof, head rests, or seat belts.

Tony
"Brake Assist Plus (Cadillacs have panic brake assist)"

-- Its doesn't automatically break by itself, it won't come to a complete stop and start back up when tracffic starts up again.

Headlights that turn into the direction of the steering to increase visibility.

Automatic rear wheel steering to increasing the turning angle while cornering.

Internet connectivity, from in the car or to the car from your pc. ( films )

Power folding side mirrors.

Backup camera.

Driver adjustable ride height.

Driver adjustable shift sensitivity and speed.

Driver adjustable ride comfort, ( shocks ).

I dont have kids so I'd love a car that puts itself in the garage. (Just me).

HP (although I don't care, really)

STS 320 BMW 5 series 550i ~340 E-Class 550 ~380

Power trunk open and close.
I could go on but I'm getting tired.

D_Lac
08-17-09, 10:45 AM
On another note: I took the STS on a long trip this weekend and it performed like a champ the whole way there and back, except for when somehow my onstar navigation went crazy for a while and customer service couldn't locate my car or download turn by turn directions to my car, that lasted for about a day then it suddenly went a way over night. Anyway the ride was beautiful, fun, and I love the hp, everyone was impressed with the tech that it had to offer. Sooo it is a great car no doubts there and I do love its looks and performance. :worship:

Side note: This is just a discussion people, lets not get too bent out of shape over it, that is what this board is about in part isn’t it, discussing our views and opinions? We don’t all have to agree buts lets be civil, its just a discussion. :thumbsup:

The Tony Show
08-17-09, 10:52 AM
Tony I can see you "LOVE" GM and Cadillac and thats cool I love caddys too but I'm not sure the comparisons you are making are far. You are comparing a CTS-V to a BMW 5 series, and a Benz E-Class that doesn't make much sense to me, the prices might be similar but so are the prices of Apples and Oranges but they are not the same. A CTS-v should be compared to a BMW M3 or a Benz C-Class AMG, now that apples to apples, at least to me. And I'm not talking about the CTS-V or STS-V, I'm talking about the base luxury cars, not the rocket ships each manufacture makes, not interested in that really.

You used horsepower several times in your examples, which is why I brought up the Vs. Price is everything when comparing cars, unless you're talking about cars so expensive that they buyer doesn't even look at it (like Ferrari or Bugatti). We aren't. The simple fact of the matter is that someone looking at spending $70,000 on a kitted out 550 could cruise into a Cadillac Dealer and get a CTS-V for the same money, so they absolutely are comparable.


For me when it comes to a luxury car I want tech, and creature comfort features, thats just me and here are a few from the boys from Germany which caddys don't have.

Let's look at those:

Multi-level driver adjustable ride height. Why? Going off road in your luxury car?

Message seats. I assume you meant massage, which Cadillac has on the DTS

Bolsters that automatically hold you in place while cornering. Cadillac had it back in 99 on the STS, and it wasn't popular.

Cooled and heated cup holders. Escalade Platinum has them

Driver adjustable engine horse power output. Every car in the world has that- it's called a throttle pedal.

Rear refrigerator. Huh?

4 zone climate control. Cadillac has 3, but I'll give you that one. Useless, but okay.

Rear reclining seats. That would be cool on a large Cadillac, actually.

Heated and cooled seats ( not heated and vented ) No difference from the ventilated seats Cadillac already has, really. If you make them too cold, you get condensation. Nothing says "luxury" like getting out of your $100,00 import with a wet ass.

Intelligent braking with moister and heat detection. ( look at the films I posted) Features for the sake of features, in my opinion.

Night view assist, with pedestrian recognition. Cadillac had it in 2000, and it never caught on

Park assist with wheel alignment and steering assist. ( films I posted ). I don't need help parking my car, thanks.

-- Its doesn't automatically break by itself, it won't come to a complete stop and start back up when tracffic starts up again. Thank god- the last thing I need is a system that can malfunction and slam on my brakes in the middle of the road.

Headlights that turn into the direction of the steering to increase visibility. Cadillac has it on the CTS, CTS-V and XLR.

Automatic rear wheel steering to increasing the turning angle while cornering. I thought you weren't interested in performance?

Internet connectivity, from in the car or to the car from your pc. ( films ) Cadillac has it in the CTS.

Power folding side mirrors. Cadillac has it in the Escalade and DTS.

Backup camera. Cadillac has it in the Escalade, CTS Wagon, and SRX.

Driver adjustable shift sensitivity and speed. Cadillac has it in the STS, CTS, CTS-V, SRX and Escalade. Move your shift lever to the right, and it firms up the shift pressure, speed and behavior. Tap up or down for full manual control.

Driver adjustable ride comfort, ( shocks ). CTS-V has it.

I dont have kids so I'd love a car that puts itself in the garage. (Just me). And when it malfunctions, your living room. No thanks.

You'll never see all those features crammed into one car anyway- manufacturers balance what they think the demographic wants with how much they think they'll pay. GM could easily throw the hot/cold cupholders from the Escalade into the CTS, but would it be worth jacking up the price another $500-$1,000? No, because most people would rather have the the lower price than the stupid cupholder feature. The reason they aren't on your STS is because the STS is a low selling car that is about to be discontinued.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you're just regurgitating a bunch of uninformed opinions from people who have convinced you that imports are better, and that GM lags in technology. Do MB or BMW have a few things Cadillac doesn't? Of course they do- just like Cadillac has a few things they don't.

Are there some things I'd like to see Cadillac do that they haven't? Of course there are- but to say that Cadillac is "sad" is a gross exaggeration.

D_Lac
08-17-09, 11:03 AM
Tony we don't agree, ok, I believe we'll both live. I could go through you post and attempt to refute but its not necessary, I respect your comments but we don't agree, and we don't have to, its cool.

The Tony Show
08-17-09, 11:11 AM
Hey man- that's life. Not everyone again is going to agree on everything, which is what makes message boards exciting. :)

inurok
08-17-09, 12:43 PM
Thetonyshow....

Its funny because BMW offers most of the options you mention on 1 car. Their flagship 7 series. Cadillac might have offered SOME of those options spread between many models but why not offer ALL of them on their top of the line flagship?

The Tony Show
08-17-09, 12:48 PM
......and does Cadillac have a $100,000 sedan? No they don't. We've gone from talking about the STS (which starts at $44,000) to a car that starts at DOUBLE that.

I'm sure if Cadillac decides to offer a luxury flagship at that price point however, that they will be extremely competitive and pack all their technology into it.

inurok
08-17-09, 12:59 PM
......and does Cadillac have a $100,000 sedan? No they don't. We've gone from talking about the STS (which starts at $44,000) to a car that starts at DOUBLE that.

I'm sure if Cadillac decides to offer a luxury flagship at that price point however, that they will be extremely competitive and pack all their technology into it.


Nope the STS-V is almost 80 grand and so is the BMW 7 series right? You can dance around the fact that the STS lags behind the competition in regards options considering its flagship status.

The Tony Show
08-17-09, 02:35 PM
Even though the STS-V is discontinued, I'll argue that point with you. It runs circles around the 7 series in performance, and all of its tech is standard equipment. It is possible to get a 7 series with more equipment than an STS-V, but then you're over $100,000. Compared base to base, the STS-V has way more tech AND performance than the 7.

It's a moot point anyway since the STS-V is no longer being built. This is just another example of people comparing GM's past with BMW's present.

inurok
08-17-09, 03:12 PM
It runs circles around the 7 series in performance, .


I am guessing you never drove a recent example of the 7 series? Its almost as quick and handles better with much less HP so...Cadillac had their sights on BMW when they created it but now you think we should not compare the 2 lol

D_Lac
08-17-09, 03:15 PM
Well not just BMW, the Benz S-Class is in the same price range and has the vast majority of those options standard, really, but I'm 100% against comparing an STS or STS-V to a 7 Series or an S-Class just because it's Caddy's flagship car and the prices are similar. To me there is just no comparason there period, its not even close to being fair for the Base STS or the STS-V.

Really I'm not joking, the STS-V is a high end performance version of the STS, the 7 Series and S-Class are just the flagship cars of BMW and Benz they weren't design with performance at the focal point but comfort, convinence and a showcase of new technology, the STS-V doesn't fit into that category at all, for real. Benz's equivalent to the STS-V is the S-Class 65 AMG, GAME OVER, don't even go there.

inurok
08-17-09, 03:15 PM
the STS-V has way more tech AND performance than the 7..


Umm....Sorry both my 2002 & 2003 745s had way more tech inside than the STS. Anyway the STS is a great car but I just feel it could have been so much more thats all.

inurok
08-17-09, 03:16 PM
Well not just BMW, the Benz S-Class is in the same price range and has the vast majority of those options standard, really, but I'm 100% against comparing an STS or STS-V to a 7 Series or an S-Class because it's Caddy's flagship car and the prices are similar. To me there is just no comparason there period, its not even close to being fair for the Base STS or the STS-V.

Really I'm not joking, the STS-V is a high end performance version of the STS, the 7 Series and S-Class are just the flagship cars of BMW and Benz they weren't design with performance at the focal point but comfort, convinence and a showcase of new technology, the STS-V doesn't fit into that category at all, for real. Benz's equivalent to the STS-V is the S-Class 65 AMG, GAME OVER, don't even go there.

And lets not forget the Seven Series B7!!

D_Lac
08-17-09, 03:20 PM
Oh my God, yeah lets not even go there please the tech in those cars rivials space shuttles from NASA.:tisk: Lets just stick with the 5 Series and the E-Class, there the STS has a chance, and Tony mades some good points about options that the STS has in common but even those options are still lacking when compared to the equilivant options of BMW, or Merc.

lreddiablo
08-17-09, 04:55 PM
So from the lists above I agree STSs need more of these features. My biggest disappointment is no Traffic on the NAV. Although my '05 doesn't have a back-up camera which is on the list of STS don't haves, didn't they add that feature around the '07 model year?

inurok
08-17-09, 04:59 PM
Plus the sts could use a USB jack for connecting an ipod. And whats the deal with the bluetooth in the STS? in my BMW when it detected the phone it would load all my contacts on screen phonebook. I cant figure out how to do that with my 3-4 year Newer STS?

WillySTS
08-17-09, 06:19 PM
Where is your BMW?

The way you go on about it, I'm wondering how you gave it up to drive a "lowly Caddy".:bigroll:

inurok
08-17-09, 06:34 PM
Where is your BMW?

The way you go on about it, I'm wondering how you gave it up to drive a "lowly Caddy".:bigroll:


Yeah I decided to step up to the best GM had to offer or so I thought. Like I said previous can you read....I said the STS is a great car its just missing alot of the wiz bang features you would expect from a flagship model. :hmm: have you ever even sat in a BMW lol....Okay I am just kidding with you.

Force-1
08-17-09, 07:57 PM
Where is your BMW?

The way you go on about it, I'm wondering how you gave it up to drive a "lowly Caddy".:bigroll:

I agree--why go on and on about how great the E65 is, yet drive an STS, which might as well be a Kia when compered to the 745? Should be at a Bimmer forum hanging out with those guys.

WillySTS
08-17-09, 08:07 PM
Yeah I decided to step up to the best GM had to offer or so I thought. Like I said previous can you read....I said the STS is a great car its just missing alot of the wiz bang features you would expect from a flagship model. :hmm: have you ever even sat in a BMW lol....Okay I am just kidding with you.

Yeah, you and me, both...I like my V a lot, but I may have to give it up. I'm pretty sure it's my last Caddy(4th one). I'll probably stick to a Silverado from here on in and maybe get myself a Camaro before I get too old.

Yes...I have driven a 7 series BMW before. Somehow, I didn't think it was all that. I'm surprized to hear they had bluetooth before 2005.

inurok
08-17-09, 08:19 PM
t. I'm surprized to hear they had bluetooth before 2005.


Nah I had the BTUM module which plugged into the jack the phone used to be plugged to. It was great as it fully integrated any bluetooth phone into the LCD nav screen. Idk maybe I am giving the BMW more credit than its worth cause they have major major mechanical problems I just never experienced them.

K STS
08-17-09, 08:34 PM
#1) Nav traffic only works in around 20 major cities - Cleveland NOT being one of them.
#2) You had to add another module to get your contacts on the BMW screen? Hmm.
#3) I almost got a 745/750 over the STS. But as I said before, there were no features worth mentioning that would have swayed me to BMW. And no, it was not as quick as the STS.
#4) Power folding side mirrors: also available on any CTS, pre-2008 as well.
#5) Backup camera - unnecessary if you have backup sensors.

inurok
08-17-09, 08:54 PM
#1) Nav traffic only works in around 20 major cities - Cleveland NOT being one of them.
#2) You had to add another module to get your contacts on the BMW screen? Hmm.
#3) I almost got a 745/750 over the STS. But as I said before, there were no features worth mentioning that would have swayed me to BMW. And no, it was not as quick as the STS.
#4) Power folding side mirrors: also available on any CTS, pre-2008 as well.
#5) Backup camera - unnecessary if you have backup sensors.


Actually the 745/750 are quicker than the 4.6 power sts
BMW had front and rear backup sensors with a graphic sonar image of the entire car in relation to what was new it.
You are bringing up CTS we are talking out the STS...re power folding mirrors
yes a plug and play module added bluetooth to my car which was fully intergrated with the car.


Anyway since been mentioned time and again that the STS is not in the same class as a 7 series who is its targets?

I assumed the CTS went against the e-class and 5series so are you saying the sts is in a class of its own?

K STS
08-17-09, 09:40 PM
Car and Driver:
2004 BMW 745i:
0-60: 6.0
Quarter Mile:14.6

Edmunds:
2005 Cadillac STS:
0-60: 6.0
Quarter Mile: 14.4

Force-1
08-17-09, 11:21 PM
Want all of these mentioned features for the cheap, relatively speaking? Hyundai plans on bringing their Equus sedan to the US next year. Advanced features include a parking-guidance system, adaptive headlights, radar-based active cruise control, lane-departure warning, knee air bags (nine air bags total), and an automatic collision-warning and avoidance system. Other conveniences include a drink cooler in the glove box, climate-controlled seats, a 17-speaker Lexicon sound system, and a 3.5-inch color LCD information screen in the instrument cluster. The rear seat has plenty of legroom, reclining seats, an optional seat massage feature and a DVD entertainment system. All of this for well below $60K. It's also rumored Hyundai will offer a new 5.0 ltr V8, 400+ HP. The current 4.6 ltr V8 propels it to 60 in about 6 seconds.

inurok
08-18-09, 12:20 AM
Car and Driver:
2004 BMW 745i:
0-60: 6.0
Quarter Mile:14.6

Edmunds:
2005 Cadillac STS:
0-60: 6.0
Quarter Mile: 14.4

Edmunds
2006 BMW 750i


360 hp at 6,300 rpm
360 lb-ft of torque at 3,400 rpm
5.8 seconds to 60 mph

1/4 mile. 14.06 seconds at 100.53 mph

I guess they all run about the same....

EuroSTS
08-18-09, 08:21 AM
After living in Europe for 15 years and comparing Euro cars to US models (and US models made for the European market) I have to throw my 2 cents in.

European law requires some things that US law has yet to acknowledge are worthwhile. Things like rear signals which have to be yellow (amber). In the US cars they are any color the manufacturer wants that particular year. Cadillacs and other GM cars made in or for the EU market all have yellow blinkers as well as the other featured mentioned here.

Rear fog lights are mandatory on every car in the EU. This makes so much sense especially for parts of the US known to have severe fog and rain. No such thing on US cars. Yeah, a Caddy with rear fog lamps! Mercs, Audis and BMWs have had them for years and have them on their US models but the owners don't know it. I pointed it out to a friend with a Porsche and he admitted no one knew it - not even his dealer!!

Fold away side mirrors. On many EU cars they're electric! US cars (at least most) are in a fixed position and instead of folding if/when hit, they just break off.

Side finder-mounted signal repeaters. US cars are just now getting them. The EU has required them for about 20 years.

Daytime running lights HAVE TO BE WHITE!! Not yellow on some and white on others. What sense does it make to have two colors? It just confuses people!! The STS, the Vette and other GM cars have yellow and it's so strange for me to see this yellow beacon coming at me.

My guess is that all of things add to the cost of the car hense the big price differences between a Caddy and a Merc, for example.

D_Lac
08-18-09, 08:36 AM
EuroSTS: You make some interesting points that I wasn't aware of. Having been in Europe for a while how would you comment on GM's tech and features vs the Euroboys. Does GM seem to be behind to you, or are they on the same level in your opinion. This is assuming that you actually did the research and have more experience in those cars ( Merc, BMW, Audi) of course.

ewill3rd
08-18-09, 08:48 AM
Turn signals can be red or amber, not any color. I'd say ours are half and half.

What is the purpose of a "rear fog lamp", not being smart... I just don't really get it. Is it to make you more visible?

I can't think of a GM car made in the last 8 years that doesn't have folding mirrors on it. At least not one I have seen. Most of them are not power but they do fold.
Ironically... maybe the Catera doesn't have folding mirrors but that car is from Europe!

What is a "side-finder mounted signal repeater"? You mean side fender? Like the amber lights on the side of the car? Yeah I can see those being handy but I have always thought they were ugly. Maybe function outweighs fashion here?

Not sure why the random DRL issue. I'd agree it would be nice if they were standardized. I am not sure I have ever been puzzled by amber insted of white lights coming at me, either way I know not to drive into them.

DOT leaves the carmakers room to do what they want here, not sure how badly I want more laws put in place to tie the hands of the carmakers but I'd agree that they could voluntarily get their collective poop together.

The rest of this thread is turning into a real snooze fest :yawn:
Pointless bickering about this vs. that.... and what is to gain?
Nobody is going to "win" here.
It is nice to know that there are people out there that don't have any "real" problems in their lives though.

D_Lac
08-18-09, 09:05 AM
The posting has nothing to do with winning, its just a discussion on the tech in GM cars vs other brands thats all, and rate in which GM follows the industry. Don't take it sooo personal, I thought thats is what message boards were about. :thepan:

The bickering comes in when people chim in with opinions and subjective points which others take as a personal attack, if we stop taking everything sooooo personal people could actually read it and maybe learn something. But in the end its just a discussion which is what these boards are about, if we can't do that here then why have the board at all.:bonkers:

EuroSTS
08-18-09, 09:07 AM
I drove Audis mostly and also Volvos and a Skoda (which is a VW company). The Skoda is the low end of the VW line but makes great cars with lots of nice features which, I think, VW tests before putting them on Audi's for example. For example, on the top of the line Skoda Superb, there is an umbrella that is placed into the rear door panel. Very cool, I thought.

Rear fog lamps make loads of sense. They are a separate lamp which shines extremely bright red when turned on. You really can see them from a long distance and even through thick fog. If you know someone with a newer BMW, Merc, Audi or Porsche, take a look. They have them even on the US models.

I have been in a few of the Euro version GM cars which have all been adapted to the market. Actually, I'm not sure if they are built in the US and shipped or if there's a plant in the EU somewhere. I know there is a Chrysler plant in Austria!

They can be purchased with either gas or very efficient diesel engines and have all the features I mentioned above. They are also about 20% more expensive. That's one reason why I want to bring a STS over. I love the car. I'm just afraid that I won't be able to register it here without the yellow blinkers and rear fog light. Maybe a Caddy dealer here can help out in that regard.

P.S. The Euro Corvette is gorgeous. The rear end has the yellow blinkers and fog lamp integrated into the back lights. It has the fender mounted signal repeater and the DRLs are white which I think looks so much better.

D_Lac
08-18-09, 09:12 AM
EuroSTS: You didn't answer my questions? Check up a few posts, right after your post b4 this last one.

EuroSTS
08-18-09, 09:19 AM
Sorry for missing your question. I think GM is neck and neck with the Euro boys.... at least from what I have seen. They are very competitive with their engines, build quality and features. Many people are buying "American" cars because of the prestige it brings - I mean, taxis are Mercs throughout Germany! Chevy has an interesting line up here that is not found in the US for example (except, I think, the Aveo). I'm seeing more and more Corvettes and Caddies (especially Escalades) for example. The Caddies can be ordered with diesel engines which are not available on US models. All in all, I'd say GM is keeping up with the Jones' in Europe. Why they don't do this in the US is beyond my comprehension. It has to be cost related - they want to remain cheaper so certain features from the EU models are cut??

D_Lac
08-18-09, 09:57 AM
I found two good articles by Motor Trend which compares the STS-v against the Merc CLS55 AMG, and the BMW 545i. I don't like the comparison to the AMG but I figured some of you guys might like to read it. Both articals stress a lot of the points made here and they did the actual tests and came up with some numbers to back what they wrote.

In my opinion the STS compares to the E-Class, and 5 Series and no other cars from those brands but some of you might like the articles so why keep them from you.




http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0601_blownaway_full_size_luxury_sedan_comparis on/index.html


http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0408_sport_sedan_comparison/index.html

inurok
08-18-09, 11:25 AM
Rear fog lamps make loads of sense. They are a separate lamp which shines extremely bright red when turned on. You really can see them from a long distance and even through thick fog. If you know someone with a newer BMW, Merc, Audi or Porsche, take a look. They have them even on the US models.

I.


GM experimented with rear fog lights in the 2001-2003 Oldsmobile aurora but most people dont know how and when to properly use them which is why I assume they dont put them in current cars here. I had both 1 2002 & 2003 BMW 745i and both did not have rear foglights?

MacMuse
08-18-09, 11:28 AM
...Daytime running lights HAVE TO BE WHITE!! Not yellow on some and white on others. ...

Canada requires white DRL, right? Can someone from Canada confirm?

I appreciate learning that Europe has a standard for DRL, and I certainly feel better about not liking my amber-DRLs-if-the-wipers-are-off.

inurok
08-18-09, 11:31 AM
Canada requires white DRL, right? Can someone from Canada confirm?

I appreciate learning that Europe has a standard for DRL, and I certainly feel better about not liking my amber-DRLs-if-the-wipers-are-off.

Yes Canada requires DRLs..

sts4ga
08-18-09, 12:21 PM
I just read this whole thing...

I was in the market for a BMW5 or a CTSV when I got my V8 STS. Not exactly an impulse buy because I've been looking most of this year.

The budget would have put me in an 01, 02 BMW (M5 or 540i) or an 04,05 CTSV. I drove a lot of BMW's. Man they are nice cars. They "Drive" like they are a lot smaller than they are I could throw them around a little more without them feeling squirrely. The M5 is a beast, as in the CTSV. I came away with it liking the CTSV a lot better. It may have been the fact that the ones I drove were newer and had fewer miles than the BMW's...

The CTSV seemed to have the power band down lower which I liked, but it didn't shift as smooth. Not bad, but not as good as the BMW. Just my opinion...

My wife fell in love with the STS. It gave me the V8 which I wanted, and gave her the auto trans. I don't think it handles like the BMWs. It just feels like a big car, which it is.

Depreciation on the Caddys is also pretty sad compared to the imports...

I think they should have offered the CTS with the N* V8 and AWD. Something in between the 6cyl. CTS and the CTSV.

EuroSTS
08-18-09, 12:42 PM
GM experimented with rear fog lights in the 2001-2003 Oldsmobile aurora but most people dont know how and when to properly use them which is why I assume they dont put them in current cars here. I had both 1 2002 & 2003 BMW 745i and both did not have rear foglights?

"they experimented..." That's funny. It's also sad if people don't know how or when to use them. It's apparently the same with winter tires. In Europe you have to have two sets of tires - winter and summer. NOT ALL SEASON!! All season tires are worthless. Winter tires don't freeze and grip snow and ice. Summer tires and all seasons freeze (harden) and won't get a grip on anything! It amazed me that people in the north like Michigan etc think all season work on snow and ice. I'm also amazed that the States don't regulate this. In the EU it has cut down on the number of accidents. If you don't have them and have an accident, regardless of how it happened, it's your fault and insurance won't cover any damage.

ewill3rd
08-18-09, 01:29 PM
A good portion of this thread has been "oh yeah European cars are better" and "oh yeah GM cars are better" then useless statistics about features and trap times were argued about, horsepower, etc. etc.

I just find it a little self serving to bicker about features on $70,000 cars while my best friend can't find a job, my sister's ex-husband gets his kicks from putting guns to people's heads, and people are sleeping under cardboard shelters wishing they had a car to drive in the first place.

I don't have a problem discussing this stuff as people have been over the last several posts, but my perception early on in this thread was directly in line with what I just stated a moment ago.

This whole thread started because turn signals on the STS don't blink 3 times by themselves.
Since I don't seem to be getting much from this thread I'll just say thanks for the info and bow out.

D_Lac
08-18-09, 01:56 PM
I just find it a little self serving to bicker about features on $70,000 cars while my best friend can't find a job, my sister's ex-husband gets his kicks from putting guns to people's heads, and people are sleeping under cardboard shelters wishing they had a car to drive in the first place.

This whole thread started because turn signals on the STS don't blink 3 times by themselves.
Since I don't seem to be getting much from this thread I'll just say thanks for the info and bow out.


I think you are taking this wayyy tooo seriously and too personal. This is just a discussion about the advancement in technology in the car industry and how GM's "grand daddy" attitude on advancement in tech has put them in a state of bankruptcy, thats it. I don't know how we went from that to Americans loosing jobs, stick up men, homelessness in America, and self serving snobs.

I really don't have any idea where this is coming from, but I don't think American consumers are responsible for GM layoffs, or the current economic crisis, or the decisions people make when it comes to crime, and nor do I think its fair to blame that on us. We didn't cause GM to close any plants, dealerships or layoff thousands of American workers, they did it to save their own *&% after years of mismanagement put them in the hole, thats an obvious fact.

I do think you have a point there are more serious things going on in the world that deserve our attention and input but I don't think a car forum is the place to air that out, just my two cents.

Lets just stay on topic here please and not get soo bent out of shape over a discussion of creature comforts and cool gadgets in a car.

ewill3rd
08-18-09, 03:30 PM
It's alright... sorry if I went off the deep end there... I'm a little edgy these days.
I'm not blaming anyone for those things, they just happened. Just trying to put a little perspective on the "discussion".
Maybe I misinterpreted what people were saying?

That happens sometimes.

EChas3
08-18-09, 04:21 PM
ewill-

You do have a point. 3 out of 5 families on my street have someone laid-off from good jobs. As a stimulus, CARS is better legislation than the 10% of the Stimulus that has actually been spent. (3 Billion vs. 100 Billion.) Part of GM's real problem is the people who don't consider the value in buying American.

Jobs
Industry
Availability & Repair Cost


But when anyone can buy a new Hyundai for $12,000 with a 100,000 mile warranty (after trading their guzzler for $4,500 and $2,000 rebate). GM's financial position has so much retirement and health liability that it can't meet that price. Buying American might be nice but a family that needs a car can't pay 25% more due to the retirement benefits of the workers. These costs are killing GM.

ddgm
08-18-09, 04:26 PM
Canada requires white DRL, right? Can someone from Canada confirm?

I appreciate learning that Europe has a standard for DRL, and I certainly feel better about not liking my amber-DRLs-if-the-wipers-are-off.

I have a 2005 STS that uses the amber parking lights as DRL if the wipers are off, and I live in Ontario,Canada. The car was sold new in
Montreal,Quebec,Canada so maybe it is different in Quebec, a lot of things are! I will do some research and let you know.

Doug

MacMuse
08-18-09, 04:45 PM
I have a 2005 STS that uses the amber parking lights as DRL if the wipers are off, and I live in Ontario,Canada. The car was sold new in
Montreal,Quebec,Canada so maybe it is different in Quebec, a lot of things are! I will do some research and let you know.

Doug

Found some of the answer... Wikipedia links to the original Canadian legalese indicate white was NOT required by the original legislation, yellow to amber were acceptable as well. Again, that's just the original 1990 material, too much too wade through to verify the current state of the rules.

The Tony Show
08-18-09, 04:46 PM
I think you are taking this wayyy tooo seriously and too personal. This is just a discussion about the advancement in technology in the car industry and how GM's "grand daddy" attitude on advancement in tech has put them in a state of bankruptcy, thats it. I don't know how we went from that to Americans loosing jobs, stick up men, homelessness in America, and self serving snobs.

I really don't have any idea where this is coming from, but I don't think American consumers are responsible for GM layoffs, or the current economic crisis, or the decisions people make when it comes to crime, and nor do I think its fair to blame that on us. We didn't cause GM to close any plants, dealerships or layoff thousands of American workers, they did it to save their own *&% after years of mismanagement put them in the hole, thats an obvious fact.

The problem here, D Lac, is that you fail to see that these comments are on topic. Your continued use of terms like "grand daddy technology", aside from being completely inaccurate, is insulting to the people who design and work on GM cars. Despite a guy who lives in Europe telling us that the American cars are on par with the European brands and gaining in popularity, you still refuse to admit that perhaps your initial claim that GM is "sad" and way behind in technology was a little exaggerated.

If the American consumer hadn't abandoned GM, they would have been able to pay for their Union contracts, health costs and all the other financial burdens that drove them into a restructuring. GM did release a lot of poorly designed cars in the 70's and 80's, and even into the 90's, but people like yourself choose to remain ignorant and oblivious to the improvements they've made, and instead continue to base your statements on outdated stereotypes.

People clinging to these outdated opinions that are way off base is what drove GM to claim Ch 11. They've spent billions, much of it borrowed, in the last decade modernizing their plants, improving their fuel economy and making their cars safer, better performing and better built. The Chinese buy Buicks and Chevrolets in massive amounts. Sales in Europe are up. Yet despite climbing to the top of nearly all the rankings for quality and reliability, the American consumers continue to just roll their eyes and GM and shoot off at the mouth with criticisms that no longer apply.

If people would actually walk into a GM dealer with an open mind, look at the car for what it is and buy one, GM wouldn't have needed Ch 11 to get out from under those debts they incurred reinventing their cars.

Go back to the first page and look at the JD Power graphs I posted from this year. Cadillac rated higher in quality than BMW and MB. Cadillac rates higher in appealing technology and interior layout than BMW and MB. Look at kbb.com- Cadillac CTS has a higher resale value than BMW or MB 2 years in a row. Look at AutoPacific- Cadillac has a higher customer satisfaction rating than BMW or MB.

GM deserved for customers to bail on them in the 80s, but now they deserve a fresh look. They also deserve to be judged fairly on what they're building today, not the stereotype that is stuck in your head.

inurok
08-18-09, 05:02 PM
T
GM deserved for customers to bail on them in the 80s, but now they deserve a fresh look. They also deserve to be judged fairly on what they're building today, not the stereotype that is stuck in your head.


Sorry GM caused this problem by sitting back and assuming Americans would continue to buy boring overpriced low quality cars. While Japan and Germany were developing better quality advanced cars GM just cruised along pumping out boring crap!

In spite of this NEW GM its going to be a very hard uphill battle for GM to gain the American confidence it let slip away. Look at Hyundai. So many buyers remember thier crappy initial offerings that they dont even give them a second glance when looking for a new vehicle in spite of how great thier current models are.

Its a shame but GM might have to file banruptcy again because even now they are back to thier old ways.

I read somewhere that GM stated their current cars match the quality etc. of the competition...wtf? Shouldnt they trying to exceed the competition?

Have you buys seen the SLS in China....miles better than the STS we are stuck with. USA should be GMs main focus but its apparent thats not the case.

And sorry bringing diesels here to the US will not solve you woes.

GM needs to totally revamp its dealer network. Some of GMs current dealers look like that have not been remodeled since the 1960 and have salesman that have either been there too long or know nothing about the products they offer. 3 Cadillac dealers treated me like crap because I did not buy my car from them. They would tell my the caddy loaners are for buyers only etc. I bought my first BMW for a merc dealer but everytime i went to the local BMW dealer for service i was treated like a king and always given a dealer owned BMW loaner. Yes when I pay for a premium car like the Cadillac I want my ass kissed sorry but its the truth.

D_Lac
08-18-09, 05:09 PM
The problem here, D Lac, is that you fail to see that these comments are on topic. Your continued use of terms like "grand daddy technology", aside from being completely inaccurate, is insulting to the people who design and work on GM cars. Despite a guy who lives in Europe telling us that the American cars are on par with the European brands and gaining in popularity, you still refuse to admit that perhaps your initial claim that GM is "sad" and way behind in technology was a little exaggerated.

If the American consumer hadn't abandoned GM, they would have been able to pay for their Union contracts, health costs and all the other financial burdens that drove them into a restructuring. GM did release a lot of poorly designed cars in the 70's and 80's, and even into the 90's, but people like yourself choose to remain ignorant and oblivious to the improvements they've made, and instead continue to base your statements on outdated stereotypes.

People clinging to these outdated opinions that are way off base is what drove GM to claim Ch 11. They've spent billions, much of it borrowed, in the last decade modernizing their plants, improving their fuel economy and making their cars safer, better performing and better built. The Chinese buy Buicks and Chevrolets in massive amounts. Sales in Europe are up. Yet despite climbing to the top of nearly all the rankings for quality and reliability, the American consumers continue to just roll their eyes and GM and shoot off at the mouth with criticisms that no longer apply.

If people would actually walk into a GM dealer with an open mind, look at the car for what it is and buy one, GM wouldn't have needed Ch 11 to get out from under those debts they incurred reinventing their cars.

Go back to the first page and look at the JD Power graphs I posted from this year. Cadillac rated higher in quality than BMW and MB. Cadillac rates higher in appealing technology and interior layout than BMW and MB. Look at kbb.com- Cadillac CTS has a higher resale value than BMW or MB 2 years in a row. Look at AutoPacific- Cadillac has a higher customer satisfaction rating than BMW or MB.

GM deserved for customers to bail on them in the 80s, but now they deserve a fresh look. They also deserve to be judged fairly on what they're building today, not the stereotype that is stuck in your head.


Tony I think you exaggerated the current level of GM's tech and make comparasons which don't fit on several features mentioned, but more importantly maybe you didn't read my responses to you but I have been enlightened by the comments you made and the numbers you presented and the other opinions about GM made by other people who have posted here and if I wasn't clear before I am hope I am now.

My intent is not to insult GM designers or technicians but to provoke a discussion on GM policies which none of those guys mentioned have any control over. I'll give it you and say gladly that GM is not as "far" behind as I had once thought, and I'm and glad that my perception was a little off.

Now having said that I still hold to my own experience and insight into the subject and I still say that GM is catching up but is not there yet, with a lot of tech that other brands offer, (lets you and I not argue over that one lol, it could last a life time) and there really isn't any reason to hold back considering their current position.

Their flagship car, the STS, should be bursting over with every creature comfort, and new tech option in the industry, just like Merc, BMW, Jag, Audi and others, the company is to picky and conservative on what goes into a car and what doesn't, how it looks and what "some people" might think. Just look at the impression the first cts made compared to the latest one. They need to get radical and come out shooting. The new 08 STS brought me back to Caddy, even though it was lacking a lot of the things I wanted. Thats all I'm trying to say, not trying to bad mouth people who are not responsible.

The Tony Show
08-18-09, 05:18 PM
Sorry caused this problem by sitting back and assuming Americans would continue to buy boring overpriced low quality cars. While Japan and Germany were developing better quality advanced cars GM just cruised along pumping out boring crap!

Yes I know- I just said that. The same people who hold their old grudges against GM are also the same people who think Toyota builds a quality car, even though their quality rankings have plummeted over the last decade, the head of Toyota was tossed out and the new President flatly admitted that they lost focus on quality in an attempt to take the #1 sales spot from GM. My point is that people need to look at NOW, not the past, when buying a product.


Its a shame but GM might have to file banruptcy again because even now they are back to thier old ways.

I read somewhere that GM stated their current cars match the quality etc. of the competition...wtf? Shouldnt they trying to exceed the competition?



This is just flatly ridiculous. There's absolutely NOTHING on the road or even remotely close to being on the road that is a product of the "new GM". Everything you'll see between now and 2011 from GM has already been in development long before this housing and credit collapse caused the economy to implode.

It will be several years before we see the results of GM's drastic shakeup. To claim failure less than 60 days after the court proceedings ended and before they've even finalized their new board is ludicrous.

You guys that criticize GM always get so haughty and self righteous when confronted with someone who actually has the brass to defend GM, but maybe if you'd hop off that high horse for 30 seconds, look at the charts and actually listen to what we have to say (and what GM has to offer), maybe some progress could be made on this issue. Even the staunchest GM defenders (such as myself) will admit that GM made some crap cars and dug themselves in this hole, yet the accusers won't give them the tiniest sliver of credit for anything- they just continue with the "crap, grandpa tech, gas guzzler SUV, union, blah blah blah...." argument that we've heard a million times.

Your arguments wouldn't inspire people to get so angry and defensive if you would be willing to give credit where it's due. Honestly- compare a 90's luxury car like the Aurora or Eldorado to a current GM "cheap" car like the Malibu- there's nicer materials, more tech and better fit/finish in today's GM "entry" car than there was 10 years ago in their luxury cars. They've improved by leaps and bounds in the last decade!

If this can be a discussion (which means both sides listen to each other and concede the occasional point) then it's useful. If it's just going to be the bashers in one corner and the defenders in the other, repeating our arguments ad nauseum, I see no reason for it to continue.

The Tony Show
08-18-09, 05:22 PM
My intent is not to insult GM designers or technicians but to provoke a discussion on GM policies which none of those guys mentioned have any control over. I'll give it you and say gladly that GM is not as "far" behind as I had once thought, and I'm and glad that my perception was a little off.

You and I posted simultaneously, and this is exactly what I was complaining about people NOT saying, so thank you. This is progress toward having an actual discussion. :thumbsup:


Their flagship car, the STS, should be bursting over with every creature comfort, and new tech option in the industry, just like Merc, BMW, Jag, Audi and others, the company is to picky and conservative on what goes into a car and what doesn't, how it looks and what "some people" might think. Just look at the impression the first cts made compared to the latest one. They need to get radical and come out shooting. The new 08 STS brought me back to Caddy, even though it was lacking a lot of the things I wanted. Thats all I'm trying to say, not trying to bad mouth people who are not responsible.

Back when the STS came out, you're right. The STS should have been more car, but at this stage of the game it ain't gonna happen. The STS is a lame duck, and will soon vanish. It was never big enough or high tech enough to take on the 7 and S, but too big and too soft to take on the 5 and E. The CTS is now the 5 series fighter, and the 7 series will be challenged by the upcoming XTS.

inurok
08-18-09, 05:36 PM
7 series will be challenged by the upcoming XTS.


Now that's either an assumption or wishful thinking imo.

Anyway I know I talk negative about GM but until I actually see improvement I will have the same thinking. No it should NOT take the newly created "NEW GM' 2 years to get their act straight sorry.

Yes I agree that have gotten much better but I also think they are just copying rather than outdoing the competition. The ONLY GM that was great and stood out was the 1995-1999 Oldsmobile Aurora. They got everything right with that car and I totally bought one when it came out. Even my STS-v does not excite me like the Aurora did. The model that came after it 2001-2003 huge disappointment because if was their version of the camry lol.

Sorry but its gonna take more than shoving a big engine in a mid sized car and calling it a V-series for me to think differently of GM.

Btw I am basing my views on personal experience with many many GM dealers and having owned many GM cars.

inurok
08-18-09, 05:37 PM
Y long before this housing and credit collapse caused the economy to implode.

e.

So its the blame game over and over. :yawn:

WillySTS
08-18-09, 05:49 PM
From a person who has worked in an import dealer and 3 GM dealers, I can tell you the dealers ARE half the problem. The differences between the way the two are managed are incredible. It seems domestic dealer go out of their way to do things hard or wrong.

The Tony Show
08-18-09, 05:56 PM
Now that's either an assumption or wishful thinking imo.

Thanks for making my point brilliantly. You know NOTHING about the XTS yet, and you already assume it can't hold a candle to your precious BMW.


Anyway I know I talk negative about GM but until I actually see improvement I will have the same thinking. No it should NOT take the newly created "NEW GM' 2 years to get their act straight sorry.

Do you think cars are just crapped out overnight? It takes years from the time a concept is made to line up suppliers, do durability testing, crash test certify it, build dies, arrange production and advertising, and then deliver the car. Next I'll bet you're going to tell me that BMW could design and launch a car in 60 days, right? :rolleyes:


So its the blame game over and over. :yawn:

Now you're just trolling, which is against the rules.

Jesda
08-19-09, 04:00 AM
I agree with most of what you have to say.. However, the 3-flash blinking turn signal is just something one expects in a luxury vehicle of this stature. Attention to detail.. This is something Cadillac should not have forgotten or thrifted out. Luxury buyers expect unnecessary things in their luxury vehicles.

That feature annoys me because it removes control from the driver. Like the Infiniti wiper on my Q45 that added an extra cleanup wipe, which only resulted in a loud rubber-on-dry-glass wiping noise. If I was turning off the wiper, why in the world would I want an extra wipe?

Sometimes, luxury features are just plain silly.

Lord Cadillac
08-19-09, 10:40 AM
That feature annoys me because it removes control from the driver. Like the Infiniti wiper on my Q45 that added an extra cleanup wipe, which only resulted in a loud rubber-on-dry-glass wiping noise. If I was turning off the wiper, why in the world would I want an extra wipe?

Sometimes, luxury features are just plain silly.
You can't please everyone. I would have to imagine that more people will appreciate the "three signal flashes" than those who don't. How many people actually want to blink the signal ONCE? Probably not many or often...

In regards to why people aren't expecting the XTS to be a 7-Series/S-Class competitor, it's because the vehicle is only going to have a V6 for at least the first couple of years - and it's being aimed at the Lexus ES.

In regards to GM having their "new" vehicles on lots within 24 years, it really IS unreasonable to think that's possible.. 2 years just isn't enough time to start over and launch new products properly. Sure, they could rush it - but we don't want that...

inurok
08-19-09, 10:47 AM
Makes sense I misspoke when I said 2 years.

D_Lac
08-19-09, 10:59 AM
Lord Cadillac: Thank you for reopening the thread, and allowing us to continue the discussion and for your input.

WillySTS: I must admit that my experience with dealers has not been solely at Cadillac dealerships but through the mixed dealerships, so I can't really comment on "Cadillac Dealers" but from those I know who use them exclusively I hear that they are good.

K STS
08-19-09, 11:00 AM
Super troller. That dude and trackbait are purely here to talk down on STS. And now that he's caught, he "misspoke."

If you want to do nothing but complain and talk about how much greater BMW is compared to the STS, or to a cadillac car that isnt even produced yet, I think it should be taken to The Lounge. This is unnecessarily clogging up the STS forum, which usually has great info.

D_Lac
08-19-09, 11:05 AM
I've been looking for a few good videos that allow you guys to compare Cadillac's offering of a particular tech vs the other guys below is a video of the pre-safe braking system on Merc done by Kelly Blue book its good, couldn't find one on Cadillac' panic brake system, if someone does please post it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOH86WYyQCg

Here is another one on E Class safety features -- its really good as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAKMRdupoAs

inurok
08-19-09, 11:10 AM
Super troller. That dude and trackbait are purely here to talk down on STS. And now that he's caught, he "misspoke."

If you want to do nothing but complain and talk about how much greater BMW is compared to the STS, or to a cadillac car that isnt even produced yet, I think it should be taken to The Lounge. This is unnecessarily clogging up the STS forum, which usually has great info.

Umm..caught because I decided to give GM the benefit of the doubt regarding the future? I still think the GM cut corners with the STS nothings changed about my views on that.

I can understand you being a little sore that I have owned both BMWs and a STS-V but cmon man get over it.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and views.

K STS
08-19-09, 11:32 AM
I wont even get into this with you dude. I've owned BMWs and Porsches, Cobras, and Cadillacs.

Since no one wants to tell you, I will. Stick to the point. Quit posting videos of benz's great panic brake feature. This is a Cadillac STS forum. See the name at the top? Cadillac Enthusiasts Group? No one wants to read about great new Mercedes and BMW features.

A Mod should have moved this to the Lounge PAGES ago.

Regulator
08-19-09, 11:33 AM
The one post that I thought was very funny was the sentence-

"If the American consumer hadn't abandoned GM, they would have been able to pay for their Union contracts, health costs and all the other financial burdens that drove them into a restructuring."

I only buy american cars and I thought to myself "what a joke" about this line.....GET REAL....do you think Americans DON'T want to buy American cars?

GM took "American consumers" and their loyal for granted FAR too long....

D_Lac
08-19-09, 11:43 AM
I wont even get into this with you dude. I've owned BMWs and Porsches, Cobras, and Cadillacs.

Since no one wants to tell you, I will. Stick to the point. Quit posting videos of benz's great panic brake feature. This is a Cadillac STS forum. See the name at the top? Cadillac Enthusiasts Group? No one wants to read about great new Mercedes and BMW features.

A Mod should have moved this to the Lounge PAGES ago.


Yo no one is forcing you to participate in this post if you leave and don't come back I won't be offended. If you don't like the topic, don't post, read it, or get involved, that way you do have to be bothered. Coming here and just complaining is only serving the bickering. The point of the post is the available tech that GM does not pursue and the videos just help to get the point across, if you don't like the videos or the point leave the post, its that simple.

The Tony Show
08-19-09, 11:44 AM
I've been looking for a few good videos that allow you guys to compare Cadillac's offering of a particular tech vs the other guys below is a video of the pre-safe braking system on Merc done by Kelly Blue book its good, couldn't find one on Cadillac' panic brake system, if someone does please post it.

YouTube - Mercedes-Benz PRE-SAFE Brake System Video - Kelley Blue Book (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOH86WYyQCg)

Here is another one on E Class safety features -- its really good as well.

YouTube - E-Class Safety Features (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAKMRdupoAs)

Part of the reason many people are uninformed about the level of technology on Cadillacs today is because Kelley Blue Book and Edmunds don't take the time to record infomercials for Cadillac like they do for MB and BMW.

Here are just two GM safety and technology features that you won't find on Mercedes Benz:

1) OnStar will soon use information gathered from vehicle sensors (such as impact speed, severity, direction, etc) to inform Emergency responders what type of injuries the driver is most likely to have, this better preparing them to assist the driver immediately when they arrive. Full Article (http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/safety/news/2009/safety_052009.jsp)

2) The 2010 SRX's Haldex Electronic AWD system allows up to 100% of the torque to be sent to the front wheels or the rear wheels, depending on traction needs. It also transfers up to 85% of the torque between the rear wheels at takeoff. Compare this to MB's 4Matic system, which is comparably archaic 50/50 torque split. Full Article (http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/safety/news/2009/awd_022409.jsp)


Of course, I had to get this info from GM's Corporate site, because no one in the media reports on GM innovations- just their financial sheets.

D_Lac
08-19-09, 11:50 AM
Part of the reason many people are uninformed about the level of technology on Cadillacs today is because Kelley Blue Book and Edmunds don't take the time to record infomercials for Cadillac like they do for MB and BMW.

Here are just two GM safety and technology features that you won't find on Mercedes Benz:

1) OnStar will soon use information gathered from vehicle sensors (such as impact speed, severity, direction, etc) to inform Emergency responders what type of injuries the driver is most likely to have, this better preparing them to assist the driver immediately when they arrive. Full Article (http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/safety/news/2009/safety_052009.jsp)

2) The 2010 SRX's Haldex Electronic AWD system allows up to 100% of the torque to be sent to the front wheels or the rear wheels, depending on traction needs. It also transfers up to 85% of the torque between the rear wheels at takeoff. Compare this to MB's 4Matic system, which is comparably archaic 50/50 torque split. Full Article (http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/safety/news/2009/awd_022409.jsp)


Of course, I had to get this info from GM's Corporate site, because no one in the media reports on GM innovations- just their financial sheets.

Tony: I couldn't agree with you more, and it really ticks me off because I do think if there were more in-depth reviews of Caddys people wouldn't have the perception that they have. You are absolutely right, thanks for the links I'm reading them over now.

inurok
08-19-09, 11:52 AM
2) The 2010 SRX's Haldex Electronic AWD system allows up to 100% of the torque to be sent to the front wheels or the rear wheels, depending on traction needs. It also transfers up to 85% of the torque between the rear wheels at takeoff. Compare this to MB's 4Matic system, which is comparably archaic 50/50 torque split. Full Article (http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/safety/news/2009/awd_022409.jsp)


.


Is this system similar to the SH system acura has had in the US since 2005? Either way its great that GM is getting with the times but like i have said before they need to beat the competition not match it. I am willing to give GM the benefit of the doubt for the future but as of now I am not impressed.

D_Lac
08-19-09, 12:01 PM
Is this system similar to the SH system acura has had in the US since 2005? Either way its great that GM is getting with the times but like i have said before they need to beat the competition not match it. I am willing to give GM the benefit of the doubt for the future but as of now I am not impressed.


I just finished skimming that article, you should read it what Cadillac is doing is deserves notice, here is an excerpt from the article.

"In honing the integration and performance of the system, Cadillac engineers completed more than 600,000 miles of testing in all weather conditions across some of the most challenging roads in Europe, as well as test tracks in Italy and Spain and the famed Nürburgring circuit in Germany (http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?050493), where Cadillac has developed and validated new vehicle features in recent years. The result is an active, all-wheel-drive system specifically tuned for the SRX. It fully exploits the power of the vehicle’s new, 3.0L direct injected V-6 engine (http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?049819) that delivers 265 horsepower (198 kW) at 6,950 rpm and 223 lb.-ft of torque (302 Nm) at 5,100 rpm."

K STS
08-19-09, 12:06 PM
Yo no one is forcing you to participate in this post if you leave and don't come back I won't be offended. If you don't like the topic, don't post, read it, or get involved, that way you do have to be bothered. Coming here and just complaining is only serving the bickering. The point of the post is the available tech that GM does not pursue and the videos just help to get the point across, if you don't like the videos or the point leave the post, its that simple.

Here is my problem:

I frequent this forum multiple times a day for valuable information on 2005-2010 STS. This is the Cadillac STS Forum - 2005 through 2010 Forum for discussions regarding the new Sigma-based STS model. This is not the place to discuss "GM's REAL Problem -- Its sad".

And since you want to do nothing but troll and send me private messages, I'll explain to you WHY you are wrong.

Per the RULES of cadillacforums, you do not post threads in forms that do not relate to the item being discussed. As I've said, this is the 2005-2010 Cadillac STS forum. Your entire post is about why GM is failing vs BMW, and all the sweet videos of BMW and Benz new car features, etc.

We have a place for these types of threads. Please view the forum called The Cadillac Forums Lounge (Only non-Cadillac discussion goes here) or even General Cadillac Discussion.

But what REALLY irks me is the fact that 85% of your posts on this forum down talk the STS vs "every other vehicle." Look at my posts. From LED light bulb sizes to STS front bumper conversions to STS-V spoilers, I provide helpful information to Cadillac STS owners.

What have you done for the forum? All I see is talking about how much better other cars are. Let's just say its a good thing I'm not a moderator.

D_Lac
08-19-09, 12:15 PM
KSTS:rant2: not going to go back and forth with you on this and show you examples of where I provide good input, sorry I'm not competiting with you, lol.


Everyone else: Oh and I did find a video of a CTS-V killing an M5 in a review by Motor Trend, I didn't post it because it wasn't an STS video but here it is if you guys would like to see it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCgQljQ7W44



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShL8rsBwyXg

The Tony Show
08-19-09, 12:17 PM
Is this system similar to the SH system acura has had in the US since 2005? Either way its great that GM is getting with the times but like i have said before they need to beat the competition not match it. I am willing to give GM the benefit of the doubt for the future but as of now I am not impressed.

Actually, no it isn't- it's far superior. The RDX and MDX can only send up to 70% of the power to rear wheels, and that only happens during hard cornering. The SRX on the other hand, can send up to 100% to the rear, even in straight line accleration.

inurok
08-19-09, 12:24 PM
KSTS:rant2: not going to go back and forth with you on this and show you examples of where I provide good input, sorry I'm not competiting with you, lol.


Everyone else: Oh and I did find a video of a CTS-V killing an M5 in a review by Motor Trend, I didn't post it because it wasn't an STS video but here it is if you guys would like to see it.



I would not say Killed lol.....I guess since its the OLD M5 vs. the NEW CTS-V but I guess its a fair comparison:rolleyes:

inurok
08-19-09, 12:29 PM
Actually, no it isn't- it's far superior. The RDX and MDX can only send up to 70% of the power to rear wheels, and that only happens during hard cornering. The SRX on the other hand, can send up to 100% to the rear, even in straight line accleration.

I think the Acura system can send almost all it power to one wheel if need be but the new SRX system sounds promising if they put a high hp engine in there. I read the recent magazine review and they said the new SRX was very slow compared to the lexus they compared it to. Speeds not everything but for the price the SRX will command it should be quicker. It would be nice if Cadillac can intergrate this awd system into its next high performance V series car.

The Tony Show
08-19-09, 01:46 PM
The 2.8Turbo SRX got a glowing review (http://jalopnik.com/5331124/2010-cadillac-srx-28t-first-drive) from Jalopnik.com. The 3.0L DI engine is for people more worried about fuel economy than performance.

It also isn't fair to call the 2009 M5 "the old M5", since it is what they are currently selling. Yes it's been out longer than the CTS-V, but until BMW brings an updated M5 to the market, the car in the test is the current M5.

inurok
08-19-09, 01:54 PM
The 2.8Turbo SRX got a glowing review (http://jalopnik.com/5331124/2010-cadillac-srx-28t-first-drive) from Jalopnik.com. The 3.0L DI engine is for people more worried about fuel economy than performance.

It also isn't fair to call the 2009 M5 "the old M5", since it is what they are currently selling. Yes it's been out longer than the CTS-V, but until BMW brings an updated M5 to the market, the car in the test is the current M5.


You are right I forgot the M5 was a V10 so its actually pretty cool the CTS-V can take it. BMW says the next M5 will be a V8 again so the CTS-V stands a good chance for beating that car too. I had a 2008 cts loaner and its a really good car and I even considered buying one but I am a big guy so I will stick with the sts-v

Yeah I checked the magazine and they test drove the lower powered model so I guess thats why they said it was slow. Why do magazines always do that with american cars. I remember they did a road test way back when and put the V6 lincoln LS vs the V8 5 series and surprise surprise the BMW won.

I must also admit the DI 3.6 is a sweet engine so i wonder if GM has plans to turbo it make it Cadillac exclusive since the Northstar is phased out?

The Tony Show
08-19-09, 02:24 PM
Yeah I checked the magazine and they test drove the lower powered model so I guess thats why they said it was slow. Why do magazines always do that with american cars. I remember they did a road test way back when and put the V6 lincoln LS vs the V8 5 series and surprise surprise the BMW won.

No idea. They almost always seem to intentionally put the American cars at a disadvantage, just like all the tests they did on the XLR-V. They used an SL55 AMG in every comparison, even though it was $30k more. The XLR-V was actually comparable in price to the base SL500 (both about $100k), not the AMG.

If they'd done a "What does $100k buy you in a luxury convertible?" test, the XLR-V would have slaughtered the SL500, but they never seem to line it up that way......

D_Lac
08-19-09, 03:19 PM
I found some reviews of the STS's tech and new features all three are pretty good the one done by Kelly Bluebook is more comprehensive. All reviewers were impressed with the Caddy's new tech.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3CNvRtXUIc&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMYHXSeOCb8



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4INxCEHZN5E

The Tony Show
08-19-09, 04:25 PM
For those of you looking for proof that the "New GM" is a different company than the old one, check this out. A little over a week ago they announced a new Buick SUV, but have now canceled it after customer feedback all pointed toward the vehicle not fitting in with their expectations of luxury for a Buick.




GM Cancels Buick SUV One Week After Announcing It

By Katie Merx and Jeff Green

Aug. 19 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Co. said it canceled plans for a new Buick sport-utility vehicle announced Aug. 6 after potential customers said the model lacked the “premium characteristics” they expect from the brand.

The decision was made Aug. 14, after GM earlier in the week showed the SUV and other future vehicles to consumers, dealers, employees, analysts and news reporters, Vice Chairman Tom Stephens said on a company blog. The plans for the SUV called for a plug-in hybrid version, which also was canceled, he wrote.

The speed of the cancellation shows that the largest U.S. automaker since emerging from bankruptcy in July “is listening and moving quickly,” Stephens wrote. Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson has said he wants to transform GM to be more responsive to customers and make speedier decisions.

“It’s obviously a sign of a faster GM and a GM more open to outside feedback,” said Jim Hall, principal of auto consulting firm 2953 Analytics in Birmingham, Michigan. “It also suggests there were already concerns inside the company about the product.”

The plug-in hybrid technology that was to be used for the Buick SUV will be applied with no delay to another vehicle that Detroit-based GM will discuss soon, Stephens wrote. GM had said it would begin selling the Buick SUV plug-in hybrid version in 2011, after the gasoline-only model began sales in late 2010.

At the new-product event, the planned SUV “received consistent feedback from large parts of all the audiences that it didn’t fit the premium characteristics that customers have come to expect from Buick,” he wrote.

GM still plans a different small Buick SUV that it referred to as “the baby Enclave,” Stephens said.

fps_dean
08-19-09, 10:18 PM
Tony

Thanks for the Stats and info pretty cool, but here is a hardcore fact I just bought an 08 STS with 1400 miles with Navi and most of the creature comforts for $20,000 I can't get a 08 comparable E-Class or BMW 5 for anywhere near that, so I get what the numbers are saying but they don't add up in price in any dealership I went to, but thanks for the facts, can you provides some links as to where you got them. I'd like to take a look.

Actually I paid a little over $20k for my STS and I could have got a '06 E Class with a few less miles for the same price. Problem is I couldn't get my leg between the steering wheel and the console in that car, much like the A6 which killed it for me, as well as expensive repairs.

Often people ask higher for them -- but most people around here ask about the same for the STS too.

fps_dean
08-19-09, 10:21 PM
1) OnStar will soon use information gathered from vehicle sensors (such as impact speed, severity, direction, etc) to inform Emergency responders what type of injuries the driver is most likely to have, this better preparing them to assist the driver immediately when they arrive. Full Article (http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/safety/news/2009/safety_052009.jsp)

Actually, it already does that.

Anyway, the best safety feature is a note on the dash that says "leave the beer at home. Take coffee instead"

EChas3
08-20-09, 12:34 PM
For those of you looking for proof that the "New GM" is a different company than the old one, check this out. A little over a week ago they announced a new Buick SUV, but have now canceled it after customer feedback all pointed toward the vehicle not fitting in with their expectations of luxury for a Buick.

I hope they are careful how they interpret customer feedback. That's what prompted Ford to design the Edsel with its trademarked vertical grille. :duck:

I do agree that a plug-in SUV ought to be marketed to a different segment. With the line-up of Chevy, Buick, Cadillac & GMC, I'd suggest expanding GMC's presence in SUV's and differentiate GMC from Chevy trucks. Hybred's make a lot of sense for contractors and the building trades.

turnne
08-29-09, 10:04 PM
Actually I paid a little over $20k for my STS and I could have got a '06 E Class with a few less miles for the same price. Problem is I couldn't get my leg between the steering wheel and the console in that car, much like the A6 which killed it for me, as well as expensive repairs.

Often people ask higher for them -- but most people around here ask about the same for the STS too.

well..its a good thing you got your STS for relatively inexpensive
You menton the Audi repairs...those pail in comparision to what the former owner of your STS lost in resale

I am not sure it makes to even consider one of these( unless you lease) until it is 4 years old
I see the V8 AWD cars that had 64K stickers selling for 20K now with 40K miles on them
That is scary...and you want to talk about another reason thats scares a lot of people away from from GM...

Warren