: Mods installed, then dyno run II



marcw
08-07-09, 12:43 AM
Following-up on Luna’s very good thread (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176135-mods-installed-then-dyno-run.html) about his recent experience at D3, I just got back from spending a very productive and informative afternoon myself with D3’s staff.

In an effort simply to repay some knowledge back to the community, with no other agenda whatsoever, I offer the following:

Before coming over to D3, the mods installed included all of the following purchased from Jesse (Wait 4 Me Performance):

1. W4M Max Performance Tune
2. W4M 9" Crankshaft Pulley
3. 160 Degree Thermostat
4. SC torsional isolator

We kept the stock airbox (with the bottom cut out), and kept the stock air intake assembly, modified with a rigid ring of fiberglass filled inside one of the baffles to keep the assembly from collapsing under boost.

The physical install went OK. Getting the stock crankshaft off and the A/C compressor belt back on are both a bit of a PITA, but doable.

The only constructive criticisms I have for Jesse are that he needs to give guys like me who are “first timers” better instructions, and the belt supplied was too short. The local NAPA was nice enough to swap the supplied 8PK1725 for an 8PK1765.

Jesses’ transmission software is fantastic…a HUGE improvement to the car. His Max Tune with the pulley is also a complete winner! Really transforms the car into a monster!

However, after some of the recent ramblings and telephone conversations with fellow board members, I thought it a good idea to confirm the AFR, RWHP, and fine-tune if necessary.

I never did a baseline tune. Car is an automatic, so let’s assume the standard 460-470.

Today, on the D3 Dynopack dyno as set-up “out of the box” with the above listed mods from Jesse, we got 535 RWHP at 11.2 psi boost indicated by standalone shop equipment (although my stock dash boost gage shows just a hair above 12 psi).

AFR was good but had a few dips and peaks, although always between 11 and 12. The big power killer was the extremely conservative timing on the W4M tune. The car was pulling timing, which showed up as a number of very conspicuous dips on the HP plot. Im in no way dissing on Jesse here. In fact, if you think about it, this is exactly how you would want to send out a “mail order tune” to someone. You have to make it safe…you have to err on the safe side. Also, as I said, I was happily surprised that the AFR’s were as close as they were, and that the car was safe all these last few weeks, so at the end of the day, Jesse gets a good grade from me for his mod package in a box.

Ive also come to appreciate very much the folks at D3 from my visit today. Being Caddy specialists, these guys know their stuff. They have customer cars in there from all over the country. Within an hour or so, we had the car fine tuned both in terms of AFR and also the timing table. Mark and I rolled out of the dyno facility with 552 RWHP, much smoother curves on the dyno printout, and best of all, peace of mind.

Today’s experience underlines the difference between a mail order tune, and having your car custom tuned. If you assume I had 465 hp stock, then we gained 87 hp from all of this.

If Luna started out with 470, and ended up with 615 (a 145 hp net gain), and you consider that other than transmission choice, we have the same setup except for headers, exhaust, and CAI, then unless our math is bad, or we inputted some wrong numbers from Luna’s post, then we conclude that those additional mods gain another 58 hp…considerably more than the 15~20-ish figure previously tossed around.

So…..maybe for my birthday, it will be a return trip to D3 for headers and Corsas…..! :lildevil:

Hope this helps out with some of the confusion and questions on the other thread, and adds to our collective knowledge.

Thanks guys!

Marc
:D

PSRmark
08-07-09, 01:22 AM
Marc,

It was great meeting you...

I really want to add that the fiberglass ring in the intake is pure genius! I noticed that the factory intake no longer collapses under WOT with the boost pulley. Nice work on that.

For those that were worried about Jesse's tune, everything looks great. I can only assume the issues being had were from MAF positioning or possibly another unknown factor at this point. I'm willing to work with anyone to aid in this fix.

I have to say again that I try to be as conservative as possible so I must say that gaining 58 rwhp is a bit of a stretch. Luna's car is a manual for one and he also had a cold air pipe...granted I still think your intake set up is great, but to get the extra ponies you may need to switch the filter out...just my 2 cents on that though.


Im glad you had a good experience today and i look forward to seeing you around halloween or Labor day :p

kck
08-07-09, 02:17 AM
marcw:

Very informative post.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Jesse says the air box modification you did will generate the same horsepower gain as the “fancier” CAI mods – until you get up in the 600 rwhp range (which, of course, you are not reaching). On the phone yesterday, Jesse did say that the Corsa mufflers provide about 4 or so more hp than the Vs stock mufflers. In sum, the 58 extra horsepower that Luna obtained would seem to be coming mostly from the header upgrade.

One possible explanation for some of the 58 extra horsepower that Luna found might be that you are running an automatic and Luna is running a manual. If I’ve understood what Jesse has told me on the phone, the automatic has some “abuse management” control that may occasionally “kick in” because of the extra stress that the “heavy” dyno drum imposes, compared to more “real-world” (non-dyno) settings, where the auto would provide maximum horsepower (see also Jesse’s post at http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175574-dyno-part-deux-4.html).

In any case, I’m hoping Jesse will provide some insight for us regarding why the headers appear to be making such large improvements in horsepower – contrary to what he has observed in his dyno runs with headers.

One other piece of information based on my recent phone conversation with him: He is obtaining about 60 hp from doing what he described as a “mild cam” upgrade – one that does not affect the “streetability” of the V. He indicated that this upgraded cam had just a slightly more “lopey idle” than the stock cam.

Kyle

PSRmark
08-07-09, 10:36 AM
marcw:

Very informative post.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Jesse says the air box modification you did will generate the same horsepower gain as the “fancier” CAI mods – until you get up in the 600 rwhp range (which, of course, you are not reaching). On the phone yesterday, Jesse did say that the Corsa mufflers provide about 4 or so more hp than the Vs stock mufflers. In sum, the 58 extra horsepower that Luna obtained would seem to be coming mostly from the header upgrade.

One possible explanation for some of the 58 extra horsepower that Luna found might be that you are running an automatic and Luna is running a manual. If I’ve understood what Jesse has told me on the phone, the automatic has some “abuse management” control that may occasionally “kick in” because of the extra stress that the “heavy” dyno drum imposes, compared to more “real-world” (non-dyno) settings, where the auto would provide maximum horsepower (see also Jesse’s post at http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175574-dyno-part-deux-4.html).

In any case, I’m hoping Jesse will provide some insight for us regarding why the headers appear to be making such large improvements in horsepower – contrary to what he has observed in his dyno runs with headers.

One other piece of information based on my recent phone conversation with him: He is obtaining about 60 hp from doing what he described as a “mild cam” upgrade – one that does not affect the “streetability” of the V. He indicated that this upgraded cam had just a slightly more “lopey idle” than the stock cam.

Kyle

I personally have seen over 18 rwhp increase with the Corsa's alone, we have the first pre-production units from them. These were installed on a stock CTS-V.

Luna.
08-07-09, 10:39 AM
Great post Marc.

I would be shocked if anyone believes that a mail-order tune is better than a custom tune. This is not to insult Jesse, Rick/StealthV, and all the other forum contributors that have contributed so much, but each car is different and may respond differently to certain inputs. I'd be shocked if Jesse himself wouldn't agree; he can do a superior tune if the car is in front of him, rather than sending his tune out for others to install.

I wish your car was manual (:)), for that would take that variable away, but it is still very interesting. While I do believe that a manual should get a little more power to the rear wheels, I'm unsure that it's a significant number.

At the moment, I'm thinking that CAI, Headers, Exhaust has a synergistic effect when used in connection with a 9" pulley, perhaps something along the lines that the stock equipment is choking off some of the 9" pulley benefits. Once installed, however, perhaps they allow the 9" pulley to shine??? :hmm:

That's what my amateur brain is thinking... :thumbsup:

Dr. Design
08-07-09, 12:26 PM
This is certainly the case. Each modification can result in different measured HP/TQ numbers depending on what they are coupled with. Headers might gain "X" amount without any additional upgrades (i.e. pulley, air intake, muffler system, etc...) However those same headers coupled with pulley, intake, mufflers, etc... would show a larger net increase when added to that combination in theory.

We have seen this with out headers on the XLR-V application. Headers without additional boost might only pick up between 15-20WHP. But on a car that has additional boost those same headers, when added, will pick up an additional 25-30WHP.

BTW - good write up Marcw!! It was great meeting you.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac





At the moment, I'm thinking that CAI, Headers, Exhaust has a synergistic effect when used in connection with a 9" pulley, perhaps something along the lines that the stock equipment is choking off some of the 9" pulley benefits. Once installed, however, perhaps they allow the 9" pulley to shine??? :hmm:

That's what my amateur brain is thinking... :thumbsup:

PSRmark
08-07-09, 02:40 PM
I personally have seen over 18 rwhp increase with the Corsa's alone, we have the first pre-production units from them. These were installed on a stock CTS-V.

Just to correct myself. It was 16rwhp not 18. Sorry for the misinfo on that, I was going off of memory which apparently seems to be slipping a bit these days.

homesite
10-06-09, 09:30 PM
Where did you get the fiberglass ring for the air intake?

Thanks!!!

Luna.
10-06-09, 09:48 PM
EDIT.

I just meant to say something like, "no post."

Apologies :D

homesite
10-06-09, 09:55 PM
Whats NT?

09BlackV
10-07-09, 11:33 AM
I personally have seen over 18 rwhp increase with the Corsa's alone, we have the first pre-production units from them. These were installed on a stock CTS-V.

PSR, how would you compare the sound of your Corsa compared to bone stock? Did you do that dyno work with marc in AZ? Thanks for the posts, E

Dr. Design
10-07-09, 12:50 PM
Hello,

Actually Marc's car was done out here in California at the dyno we use (D3). We made a video clip of the two systems, Corsa vs. Factory so everyone could hear the differences.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bbk5kgHUFkI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bbk5kgHUFkI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Please let us know if you have any questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


PSR, how would you compare the sound of your Corsa compared to bone stock? Did you do that dyno work with marc in AZ? Thanks for the posts, E

Jpjr
10-07-09, 01:10 PM
I have a few questions as well...

Can someone confirm that the cold air pipe in reference is the same diameter where the MAF is attached compared to stock? That is the only way I could see a cold air kit contributing that much rwhp.

As far as headers, it may be a different story. The enemy of boosted cars is backpressure (which boost measures). All else equal, a car that can flow air easier will require less boost to make the same power. I could see headers really opening up some power if the stock ones are overly constricting. I haven't seen them though.

One last question, can someone confirm whether the A/F spikes (or is it only dips due to timing?) have anything to do with fuel delivery? Do the stock V's pump enough gas to handle the higher power levels? What are the stock injectors rated for and is there any voltage issues assuming returnless fuel system?

Dr. Design
10-07-09, 03:06 PM
Hello,

The D3 Air intake system was not supplied to this vehicle that the original poster speaks of. However I can verify that the D3 air intake does use a 4" diameter tube relative to the MAF location.

The headers make a big difference on this vehicle. Boost will effectively decrease when you reduce back pressure via the exhaust.

As for spikes in the A/R's. I would think that each vehicle and tune is a little different. So I wouldn't commit to a blanket answer. If we see dips or fluctuations in our tunes, while tuning, we can usually be attributed to timing or temps. We monitor the fuel delivery system and have not found any cause of concern for vehicles at the stage 2 power levels. None of the components (i.e. injectors, fuel pump, etc..) are considered maxed out.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


I have a few questions as well...

Can someone confirm that the cold air pipe in reference is the same diameter where the MAF is attached compared to stock? That is the only way I could see a cold air kit contributing that much rwhp.

As far as headers, it may be a different story. The enemy of boosted cars is backpressure (which boost measures). All else equal, a car that can flow air easier will require less boost to make the same power. I could see headers really opening up some power if the stock ones are overly constricting. I haven't seen them though.

One last question, can someone confirm whether the A/F spikes (or is it only dips due to timing?) have anything to do with fuel delivery? Do the stock V's pump enough gas to handle the higher power levels? What are the stock injectors rated for and is there any voltage issues assuming returnless fuel system?

homesite
10-07-09, 03:42 PM
Where did he get the fiberglass ring for the intake tube?

Dr. Design
10-07-09, 04:55 PM
I recall he made it himself....

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Where did he get the fiberglass ring for the intake tube?

PSRmark
10-07-09, 06:30 PM
PSR, how would you compare the sound of your Corsa compared to bone stock? Did you do that dyno work with marc in AZ? Thanks for the posts, E


Sorry for the confusion 09blackV, I had posted this back when I was still with D3.

To answer your questions though...

Corsa's over factory sounds amazing! Its quiet at cruising speeds and moderate when you get on it(this can be subjective though)

Dr. Design is correct...The worked performed was done in Cali.

09BlackV
10-07-09, 09:46 PM
Sorry for the confusion 09blackV, I had posted this back when I was still with D3.

To answer your questions though...

Corsa's over factory sounds amazing! Its quiet at cruising speeds and moderate when you get on it(this can be subjective though)

Dr. Design is correct...The worked performed was done in Cali.

Thanks, can you install some for me at your shop? I'm in AZ.

09BlackV
10-07-09, 09:47 PM
Thanks, can you install some for me at your shop? I'm in AZ.

If so PSR, pleas PM any info I my need. Thanks again!

PSRmark
10-07-09, 11:05 PM
Thanks, can you install some for me at your shop? I'm in AZ.

We sure can. PM sent