: Mods installed, then dyno run



Luna.
08-01-09, 01:10 PM
Let me start off by saying that I post this thread with some hesitancy. I'm well aware of some peoples' frustration, especially those looking for ~600rwhp, and it is not my intention to fan those flames of frustration...

But, at the end of the day, I see this information as being useful, so here we go...

After several weeks of waiting/development, all parts, particularly the crank pulley, were available for intallation and my appointment to have such items installed finally came.

I've been chatting with D3 for some time now and have developed a good relationship with some of their staff & I feel comfortable with them performing the installation/co-tuning of these parts on my V.

I was insistent, and D3 wholly agreed, to have an initial dyno run to measure the gains my car would experience by the installation of these mods. Where did it come in at? Note that the dyno used was a Dynopack.

513 rwhp/~515rwtq (the dyno run shows 526 rwtq, but it appears there was a spike and the real torque was a little lower). These results made me feel very comfortable, as they are nearly identical to the results I got at RPM Motors when I got my car tuned by Charlie. Note that this dyno run has already been posted on this forum and they showed 521rwhp/511rwtq. I mean, they are almost SPOT-ON.

The mods installed include the following:

1. American Racing Headers
2. Corsa Exhaust
3. 9" Crankshaft Pulley
4. Hennessey CAI

That's it.

D3 informed me that this was not as simple a plug-and-play installation as I otherwise thought it would be. The headers had a few issues, as they covered the dipstick hole, were a wee-bit too close to the steering column and they didn't bolt nice-and-neat up to the Corsa exhaust (a little longer than a foot short, which had to be fabricated). Further, the Hennessey CAI needed a little bit of TLC to get it installed as well.

NOTE that NONE of these issues were overly challenging at all--just an FYI that, on my vehicle, we had a few, minor issues with the installation of these items.

Along those lines, I'd like to say that I got a very positive feeling from American Racing Headers. They seem like they really, really want to deliver a quality product and try very hard to do so. And they were very responsive to questions from myself and D3. A big shout out to them for exceeding my expectations. :worship:

Anyways, after a few hours of tuning the results were...

(Drumroll please...)

615rwhp, 608 rwtq, a gain of 102rwhp and a gain of 82 rwtq (see attachments).

EDIT--I'm having trouble uploading the dyno runs because the scanned jpegs are too big. Can anyone help here? They are 2338x1700 and I think the site only allows for 800x800. I can email the files if I don't figure out how to shrink them on a timely basis.

A couple of random thoughts:

--While the the dyno graph shows an increase in boost of over 4 lbs, up to 11.5 psi, we believe useable boost is more like a 3.5 psi increase, as the boost continued to climb past 6,100 RPM, but you lose power in my car with my current setup & probably don't want/need to spin it that high.

--American Racing Headers + Corsa is LOUD. I really didn't think it was possible to have an exhaust system be too loud for me, but it's on the threshold. It DOES sound killer, but now I'm worried about getting pulled over and ticketed! LOL. Maybe I'm just too used to my '05 and my Zoomers exhaust...

--D3 did a great job working around the minor challenges regarding installation and also did a good job answering my numerous questions. I would have no issues recommending them to anyone; they did a great job!!

--The end results far exceeded my expectations. I was shooting for, say, 560-580 rwhp and I'm way past that. As a matter of fact, I'm almost nervous with these great results, for the pistons/rods aren't the strongest out there... Jesse, I hope you're right that they aren't the weak link!

--Along those lines, I almost started recommending to pull the tune back a little, as safety/reliability is extraordinarily important to me. I'll let Mark from D3 answer specific questions about the tune we installed, but the car did NOT like pulling too much timing. The AF ratios are all hovering around 11.5 to 1 throughout most of the RPM range and the car doesn't have too much timing; it's a pretty conservative tune.

--I believe D3 will post the video of the dyno run sooon, in case anyone is interested in seeing that.

--I'm not at home right now, so I don't have all invoices in front of me, so I'll post a better estimate in terms of total cost later. Off the top of my head, I believe, all things considered, it ran me around $8k to do everything, cradle-to-grave.

One BIG drawback of American Racing Headers + Corsa--I have ZERO hope of surprising anyone.... :cool2:

The Tony Show
08-01-09, 01:13 PM
Wow- those are some results.

Very nice. :highfive:

whisler151
08-01-09, 01:16 PM
Congrats! The manuals are really putting down some power! I cant wait to hear the exhaust.

CIWS
08-01-09, 01:25 PM
EDIT--I'm having trouble uploading the dyno runs because the scanned jpegs are too big. Can anyone help here? They are 2338x1700 and I think the site only allows for 800x800. I can email the files if I don't figure out how to shrink them on a timely basis.



Check your PMs

CadV
08-01-09, 01:30 PM
Good to see someone hitting the 600rwhp mark. Look forward to the dyno graphs. Doing it at only 11.5psi is very impressive considering most of us expected to need 15psi to do it.

How did the auto do Luna?

shadybx7
08-01-09, 01:39 PM
:pop2: on the dynovideo, awesome #'s

Luna.
08-01-09, 01:57 PM
Check your PMs

Thanks buddy. Check your email. :)


Good to see someone hitting the 600rwhp mark. Look forward to the dyno graphs. Doing it at only 11.5psi is very impressive considering most of us expected to need 15psi to do it.

How did the auto do Luna?

Not sure I understand the question.

Apologies for not mentioning that I have a manual trans V.



:pop2: on the dynovideo, awesome #'s

I believe D3 recorded many of the dyno runs. I'm not sure he'll post them this weekend, but I would anticipate them early next week.

If he gets a good grasp of the sound, look out---it's LOUD.... lol

CadV
08-01-09, 02:17 PM
Not sure I understand the question.

Apologies for not mentioning that I have a manual trans V.

Sorry d3Mark mentioned he was dynoing a manual and auto so I guess he meant another manual car.

CIWS
08-01-09, 02:45 PM
Thanks buddy. Check your email. :)


They should be back to your e-mail resized. If you are still having some kind of problem I can post them for you, but I won't do it without your permission first.

neuronbob
08-01-09, 03:15 PM
VERY impressive. Thanks again for sharing results to all of us potential modders.

Razorecko
08-01-09, 03:36 PM
Hey luna awesome #'s....did you get 513 rwhp/~515rwtq - fully stock ??

Tasos
08-01-09, 03:45 PM
Hey luna awesome #'s....did you get 513 rwhp/~515rwtq - fully stock ??

I think he said with a tune.


Just wanted to say congrats and thanks for sharing.

brent eb02
08-01-09, 03:51 PM
great numbers Luna

i wish i had a 6 speed manual now !

thank you for posting.. the more info we share the better it helps everyone !

D3 seems to have there stuff together !



can you list all your mods??

Luna.
08-01-09, 04:36 PM
Hey luna awesome #'s....did you get 513 rwhp/~515rwtq - fully stock ??

No, that was with Charlie's tune from RPM Motors. Totally stock, at RPM Motors, I got ~470 rwhp. Apologies, I can't recall the stock rwtq off the top of my heqd, but it was nothing out of the ordinary.


great numbers Luna

i wish i had a 6 speed manual now !

thank you for posting.. the more info we share the better it helps everyone !

D3 seems to have there stuff together !



can you list all your mods??


See list above, in the original thread. :cool2:

I'm honestly very nervous right now though---the friggin pistons are worrying me big time.

Jesse, Mark, anyone...please tell me everything will be fine... :bighead: :thumbsup:

Luna.
08-01-09, 04:41 PM
See attachments for dyno run(s)

TAGZO
08-01-09, 04:50 PM
:thumbsup: very nice numbers :thumbsup:

you have super car power buddy! which seats 4 by the way! :D

neuronbob
08-01-09, 05:57 PM
Wow, what awesome numbers!

Razorecko
08-01-09, 06:13 PM
nice, i need a custom tune. I laid down 461hp 501tq fully stock so it looks like us manuals will make some sick power :bouncy: - i knew that the auto torque management would be a serious pain in the @ss in terms of mods.

whisler151
08-01-09, 06:52 PM
nice, i need a custom tune. I laid down 461hp 501tq fully stock so it looks like us manuals will make some sick power :bouncy: - i knew that the auto torque management would be a serious pain in the @ss in terms of mods.

:yeah:

When I'm out of my V1 I will be looking for a manual V2.

liqidvenom
08-01-09, 08:57 PM
very very nice numbers, i might be jealous now.

kck
08-01-09, 09:45 PM
Luna:

Great numbers! And I’m looking forward to d3Mark’s more complete report next week. I think Gary Wells is also planning on dropping by the D3 performance shop, which is apparently right around the corner from him, to observe some mods that D3 is planning for the V2.

I have some follow-up questions:

(1) Jesse has reported some fuel-starvation problems once you go above 600 or so hp. Did you see any evidence that you were approaching the “boundary” where fuel delivery might become an issue?

(2) Gotham CTS-V has also reported big performance boosts from Wait4me blower mods (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175696-just-got-9-5-pulley-kit.html). But on another thread, he reports on some “heat soak” issues after multiple hard runs (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176053-bad-heatsoak-help.html). Have you experienced any heat soak problems?

(3) If I recall correctly, Jesse’s transmission tune raises the rpm shift point from 6100 to 6500 rpm in “competition” mode. And I think I recall him saying that he does this because the engine actually makes good power at this higher rpm level. (And, again if I recall correctly, the comparable engine in the ZR-1 Vette also shifts around 6500 rpm, though I realize that this may be because it has a titanium valve train that may help the Vette make better power at higher rpm.) So do you have any explanation for why the optimal shift point for your set-up is apparently around 6100 rpm?

(4) In any of your dyno runs, did you by any chance do an installation of your American Racing headers so that you could determine how much horsepower increase they gave you just by themselves? I ask because Jesse has noted how excellent the V’s stock exhaust manifold is, and he has indicated that the larger performance gains occur when correcting the “crimped” stock exhaust pipes after the headers.

(5) Persons have been reporting very modest noise increases when adding the Corsa exhaust. In fact, some have reported a quieter exhaust at cruise than with the stock mufflers, and complained that the noise increase at idle and WOT is not enough to warrant the expense of the muffler upgrade. So am I correct to assume that it is the headers that are the primary source of the dramatic increase in exhaust sound you have experienced?

(6) Is this big increase in exhaust sound occurring at cruise, as well as at idle and WOT?

Kyle

kck
08-01-09, 11:10 PM
nice, i need a custom tune. I laid down 461hp 501tq fully stock so it looks like us manuals will make some sick power :bouncy: - i knew that the auto torque management would be a serious pain in the @ss in terms of mods.

Razorecko:

I’m struggling to understand all these issues with regard to auto vs. manual performance. I’m guessing that some of the assumptions I’ve made below are simply wrong. So please clarify for me where my statements that follow are flawed!

Jesse has indicated that the auto and manual are making about the same performance boosts for a given performance mod (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175574-dyno-part-deux-4.html). And he seems to indicate in the same post that most of his in-shop mods have been customers with the auto transmission, given that there are many more persons who buy the V with the auto than with the manual. So it would seem that his experiences with the auto Vs is widespread enough that he has a good basis for comparison with the manuals.

In his post he does note, however, that the “system” limits the torque applied so that you don’t “kill” your auto transmission. However, in later post on the same thread, Gotham CTS-V thinks that Jesse is referring to “GM’s Torque Management” for the auto, and that he recalls that this system will “only cut in on redline shifts and it otherwise makes no difference.”

In a post from a while ago (which I’m too tired to look for), I recall Jesse saying he was actually seeing slightly higher “pure stock” dyno figures for the auto V than for the manual V – though he dismissed this difference as most likely due to how the dyno is “setup” as a consequence of the different gear ratios in the auto vs. manual V. Accordingly, if the pure stock auto transmissions have dyno numbers roughly equal to the stock manuals (though I would have to assume with at least a little bit of hp loss due to the inherently less efficient auto transmission), and the hp increases are about the same from adding a given mod for the auto vs. the manual, then the total hp should be roughly equivalent (other than during “redline shift points”).

Kyle

Gary Wells
08-01-09, 11:57 PM
Razorecko:

I’m struggling to understand all these issues with regard to auto vs. manual performance. I’m guessing that some of the assumptions I’ve made below are simply wrong. So please clarify for me where my statements that follow are flawed!

Jesse has indicated that the auto and manual are making about the same performance boosts for a given performance mod (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175574-dyno-part-deux-4.html). And he seems to indicate in the same post that most of his in-shop mods have been customers with the auto transmission, given that there are many more persons who buy the V with the auto than with the manual. So it would seem that his experiences with the auto Vs is widespread enough that he has a good basis for comparison with the manuals.

In his post he does note, however, that the “system” limits the torque applied so that you don’t “kill” your auto transmission. However, in later post on the same thread, Gotham CTS-V thinks that Jesse is referring to “GM’s Torque Management” for the auto, and that he recalls that this system will “only cut in on redline shifts and it otherwise makes no difference.”

In a post from a while ago (which I’m too tired to look for), I recall Jesse saying he was actually seeing slightly higher “pure stock” dyno figures for the auto V than for the manual V – though he dismissed this difference as most likely due to how the dyno is “setup” as a consequence of the different gear ratios in the auto vs. manual V. Accordingly, if the pure stock auto transmissions have dyno numbers roughly equal to the stock manuals (though I would have to assume with at least a little bit of hp loss due to the inherently less efficient auto transmission), and the hp increases are about the same from adding a given mod for the auto vs. the manual, then the total hp should be roughly equivalent (other than during “redline shift points”).

Kyle

I remember the post that Jesse stated that he did, I believe, add something or make some minor adjustments in his program for the autos making slightly more HP.
Several people, myself included questioned Jesse's statement in that regard and we felt that it might be a typo, but Jesse never got back on that thread or if he did he never got back on that particular aspect of that thread. It is possible that we took his statement out of context. I believe that his statement was that "Autos been laying down bigger #'s. Jesse could have meant that the autos have been laying down bigger #'s than they had previously, and therefore he had to add, adjust, or trim something.

I posted a while back that in my questioning 2 different So Cal tuners, 1 being Keith, I believe at Charlie's RPM Engineering and James, I believe, at D3 Engineering & Research as to which generally made more HP & TQ, both advised that as a general rule of thumb that the 6 speed manual generally laid down more than the 6 speed automatic, but not always, and generally only about 10 or 15 RWHP & equivalent RWTQ #'s more. Both also advised that the auto generally did better on the track and the street, probably due to gearing differences. I don't doubt that a 6 speed stick will make better #'s. On the other hand, virtually anybody, even me maybe can successfully pull the trigger on an auto over a stick under most given conditions. I love my auto, other than the $ 2600 part of it. That sucked.

SLPR 6.0L
08-02-09, 12:25 AM
talk about cheap and easy HP. Good to see the car likes bolt ons. Manual is the only way to go.

Luna.
08-02-09, 04:45 AM
(1) Jesse has reported some fuel-starvation problems once you go above 600 or so hp. Did you see any evidence that you were approaching the “boundary” where fuel delivery might become an issue?

It didn't seem like it to me at all, but I'll let Mark respond more fully to this question, as he was more closely involved in the tune.



(2) Gotham CTS-V has also reported big performance boosts from Wait4me blower mods (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175696-just-got-9-5-pulley-kit.html (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175696-just-got-9-5-pulley-kit.html)). But on another thread, he reports on some “heat soak” issues after multiple hard runs (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176053-bad-heatsoak-help.html (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176053-bad-heatsoak-help.html)). Have you experienced any heat soak problems?


Yes, I saw heat-soak, but it didn't seem overwhelming, nor did it seem as bad as a maggie on a V1.


(3) If I recall correctly, Jesse’s transmission tune raises the rpm shift point from 6100 to 6500 rpm in “competition” mode. And I think I recall him saying that he does this because the engine actually makes good power at this higher rpm level. (And, again if I recall correctly, the comparable engine in the ZR-1 Vette also shifts around 6500 rpm, though I realize that this may be because it has a titanium valve train that may help the Vette make better power at higher rpm.) So do you have any explanation for why the optimal shift point for your set-up is apparently around 6100 rpm?


I/we did no official calculation (at least to my knowledge). It certainly is still making good power right up to 6,500 RPM. The power, however, clearly seems to start falling from that point on and a shift would put you right in the real meat-and-potatos of the powerband, which is about as flat as, say, Utah...

I'd like to know exactly how to calculate optimum shift points though...




(4) In any of your dyno runs, did you by any chance do an installation of your American Racing headers so that you could determine how much horsepower increase they gave you just by themselves? I ask because Jesse has noted how excellent the V’s stock exhaust manifold is, and he has indicated that the larger performance gains occur when correcting the “crimped” stock exhaust pipes after the headers.


No, I wasn't able to install each mod seperately and note the HP gains. I would have really liked that, for it would provide some excellent information, but that would be expensive and a lot more time consuming. I figure that we have enough people on the forums who will be installing similar mods to where we can hopefully get some good information on these individual mods.



(5) Persons have been reporting very modest noise increases when adding the Corsa exhaust. In fact, some have reported a quieter exhaust at cruise than with the stock mufflers, and complained that the noise increase at idle and WOT is not enough to warrant the expense of the muffler upgrade. So am I correct to assume that it is the headers that are the primary source of the dramatic increase in exhaust sound you have experienced?

(6) Is this big increase in exhaust sound occurring at cruise, as well as at idle and WOT?

Kyle

Since they were installed concurrently, I'm afraid I'm not able to provide a good answer. Corsa is great at very light throttle, as well as idle. When you get into the motor, especially WOT, it's loud. Based on my experience with the different exhaust systems with the V1s, I'd be comfortable saying that the exhaust sound is significantly increased when used in conjunction with the headers.

After a full day of driving it around, I'm much more used to it and am enjoying it much, much more... :thumbsup:

Hopefully I was able to answer at least some of your questions. I'm confident that Mark can chime in and give some additional insight.

CadV
08-02-09, 07:57 AM
Remember the auto V2 does not have a 1:1 gear and nobody has attempted to mess with torque management. Think it is premature to say the manual is the winner.

Your also passing judgment based off cars in cooler weather (Cali) while the rest of us are roasting our nuts off :P.

Gary Wells
08-02-09, 08:30 AM
Remember the auto V2 does not have a 1:1 gear and nobody has attempted to mess with torque management. Think it is premature to say the manual is the winner.

Your also passing judgment based off cars in cooler weather (Cali) while the rest of us are roasting our nuts off :P.

There is neither winner nor loser, only personal preferences. I prefer an auto even though it might be a tad less RWHP & RWTQ and cost me $ 1300 more that the stick on the GG tax. I have been shoeing around a '02 ZO6 for the last 9 years as a dd to and from work, with my only entertainment a '87 turbo Buick, automatic, and that was one of my major reasons for choosing an auto. On a side note, if I could move out of the Republik of Kalifornication I would do it in a heartbeat. I'm too old & not enough money.
Just my $.02 worth, and that's before taxes too.

Razorecko
08-02-09, 11:58 AM
Remember that an auto V w/ 450hp is as fast as a manual with 500hp. The gearing and automatic shifting make up for that power loss. The only time i see it being more evident is when you're doing highway pulls.

TAGZO
08-02-09, 12:46 PM
Remember the auto V2 does not have a 1:1 gear and nobody has attempted to mess with torque management. Think it is premature to say the manual is the winner.

Your also passing judgment based off cars in cooler weather (Cali) while the rest of us are roasting our nuts off :P.
No worries! Hopefully if everything goes as planned, i will install everything and dyno by the coming weekend, so we will see how the Auto will do :D

CadV
08-02-09, 03:01 PM
No worries! Hopefully if everything goes as planned, i will install everything and dyno by the coming weekend, so we will see how the Auto will do :D

You keep saying that hehe

You in Cali?

kck
08-02-09, 08:08 PM
I remember the post that Jesse stated that he did, I believe, add something or make some minor adjustments in his program for the autos making slightly more HP.
Several people, myself included questioned Jesse's statement in that regard and we felt that it might be a typo, but Jesse never got back on that thread or if he did he never got back on that particular aspect of that thread. It is possible that we took his statement out of context. I believe that his statement was that "Autos been laying down bigger #'s. Jesse could have meant that the autos have been laying down bigger #'s than they had previously, and therefore he had to add, adjust, or trim something.

I posted a while back that in my questioning 2 different So Cal tuners, 1 being Keith, I believe at Charlie's RPM Engineering and James, I believe, at D3 Engineering & Research as to which generally made more HP & TQ, both advised that as a general rule of thumb that the 6 speed manual generally laid down more than the 6 speed automatic, but not always, and generally only about 10 or 15 RWHP & equivalent RWTQ #'s more. Both also advised that the auto generally did better on the track and the street, probably due to gearing differences. I don't doubt that a 6 speed stick will make better #'s. On the other hand, virtually anybody, even me maybe can successfully pull the trigger on an auto over a stick under most given conditions. I love my auto, other than the $ 2600 part of it. That sucked.

Gary:

The horsepower numbers you report for the auto vs. manual make sense to me. And your point about the auto beating the manual in drag times is actually backed up by the various car reviews, as many others have noted. And given that the reviewers are likely to be a bit more skilled in using the 6-speed than the typical V driver, I have to assume “real-world” races with “typical” drivers are likely to see an even bigger “average” advantage for the auto over the manual. Also, although I’m guessing that the auto might be a bit easier to launch than the manual (especially for “non-pro” drivers), it’s likely one would see an additional advantage for the auto, if you install Jesse’s transmission tune. If I understand correctly one of his posts on this topic, he has an option in the tune for the auto that allows a completely automated launch. You simply give “full-throttle” in this “drag launch” mode, and let the computer provide the correct rpm and wheel spin to maximize acceleration from launch. And I would have to also assume that his “tweaking” the speed at which the auto shifts in competition mode would also increase the advantage of the auto over the manual.

And, yes, the extra cost we pay for the poorer gas mileage of the auto vs. the manual does “suck,” of course. But I think it is the price we pay for contributing even greater pollution to the environment than the manual V already does. It’s really true that the V is “reluctant” to pass up any gas station that is in its view!

Kyle

kck
08-02-09, 08:29 PM
It didn't seem like it to me at all, but I'll let Mark respond more fully to this question, as he was more closely involved in the tune.

Yes, I saw heat-soak, but it didn't seem overwhelming, nor did it seem as bad as a maggie on a V1.

I/we did no official calculation (at least to my knowledge). It certainly is still making good power right up to 6,500 RPM. The power, however, clearly seems to start falling from that point on and a shift would put you right in the real meat-and-potatos of the powerband, which is about as flat as, say, Utah...

I'd like to know exactly how to calculate optimum shift points though...

No, I wasn't able to install each mod seperately and note the HP gains. I would have really liked that, for it would provide some excellent information, but that would be expensive and a lot more time consuming. I figure that we have enough people on the forums who will be installing similar mods to where we can hopefully get some good information on these individual mods.

Since they were installed concurrently, I'm afraid I'm not able to provide a good answer. Corsa is great at very light throttle, as well as idle. When you get into the motor, especially WOT, it's loud. Based on my experience with the different exhaust systems with the V1s, I'd be comfortable saying that the exhaust sound is significantly increased when used in conjunction with the headers.

After a full day of driving it around, I'm much more used to it and am enjoying it much, much more... :thumbsup:

Hopefully I was able to answer at least some of your questions. I'm confident that Mark can chime in and give some additional insight.

Luna:

Thanks for taking the time to so carefully answer my series of questions. It is much appreciated, and I’m looking forward to d3Mark’s report later this week.

Kyle

kck
08-02-09, 08:33 PM
Remember the auto V2 does not have a 1:1 gear and nobody has attempted to mess with torque management. Think it is premature to say the manual is the winner.

Your also passing judgment based off cars in cooler weather (Cali) while the rest of us are roasting our nuts off :P.

CadV:

Like you, I would also like to know more about how torque management limits the power delivered by the auto transmission. As I’ve posted above in my “speculations for Razorecko, there appears to be some indication (based on Gotham CTS-V’s comments) that torque management only occurs during the brief period when shifting at redline. But I’m hoping forum experts on this issue will be able to give us some definitive answers.

Possibly we need a new thread specific to this topic?

Kyle

TAGZO
08-02-09, 08:42 PM
I know i keep saying that :p ok ok ok, this coming weekend!! i will make it my target!! :rockon:

Luna.
08-02-09, 08:58 PM
Remember that an auto V w/ 450hp is as fast as a manual with 500hp. The gearing and automatic shifting make up for that power loss. The only time i see it being more evident is when you're doing highway pulls.

One of these days someone is going to have to explain this so that a 10-year old can understand it, for it's just not making much sense to me.

Why would GM produce a manual car, then purposely gear it poorer than the auto?? :suspect:

And while I agree that the risk of mis-shifts is higher with a manual, I don't buy into the auto-is-significantly-faster-shifting-than-manual idea most of the time, especially with the "RPM-hold" option in the manual CTS-V.

In any case, that is for another discussion...

I tried to get a Lexus IS-F to play (GREAT looking car by the way), but she'd have none of it. I was even careful to NOT let the Corsa's talk her out of it before the challenge was on, but it wasn't meant to be.

I was almost able to coax an S55 AMG into a little run, but, alas, that failed to due to traffic!

Oh well, someday someone will wake the beast... :lildevil:

CTSV_510
08-02-09, 09:05 PM
:bows:

Way to go Luna!

SlvrBullIT
08-03-09, 02:49 AM
So is the headers, x-pipe and Corsa exhaust like so stinking loud that it's not really viable? Looking for the best combination of exhaust mods that won't make the wife and neighbors bludgeon me to death due to too much noise but still "open" up the exhaust to breathe easier and gain power.

Luna.
08-03-09, 03:09 AM
So is the headers, x-pipe and Corsa exhaust like so stinking loud that it's not really viable? Looking for the best combination of exhaust mods that won't make the wife and neighbors bludgeon me to death due to too much noise but still "open" up the exhaust to breathe easier and gain power.

Well, Corsas are very quiet as long as you aren't torque-ing the motor. Once you get into it, however, that's a different story and I think that's the way they advertise it.

I just don't know how much to attribute to the headers, the increase in boost/HP or what.

All I can say is that when your foot is into it on my car, it's pretty friggin loud. I don't want to say it isn't viable, for it's very, very subjective, but I will say, with confidence, that my setup would be considered loud by most. A friend today said it sounds like a Formula One car, while he was laughing his a$$ off at the acceleration run I just gave him...

aceofblitz
08-03-09, 06:29 AM
Luna: I remember the headers actually decreasing your boost but maintaining a small gain if the car were stock, aka making it more efficient. I also remember that they said HUGE gains were to be had if a pully was installed. Hope you upload some videos for us so we can listen to your car.

SlvrBullIT: I found the perfect combination already, but it is a little on the expensive side. If you want the best of both worlds it is the only choice I could find. First you get the wait4me exhaust the one that is cut to use the stock exhaust, after that you order a pair of mufflers called "Varex Mufflers" by an australian company called Xforce which have an electronic switch for butterfly valves inside the mufflers. Friend has them on his 6.2L Lumina SS (pontiac G8) and I love the sound switch thing. 2 mufflers will cost you about 1000 bucks though LOL
You might want to look it up if you are willing to pay for the performance + sound change thing
(sorry for going off topic)

Gotham CTS-V
08-03-09, 09:56 AM
When I made the comment about GM's torque management, it was only from my experience with the C6 Z06 I used to own. It was a 6 speed manual (same tranny as the manual found in these cars) and torque management was somethign that GM put in so that on WOT shifts, the torque would be reduced to increase the longevity of the transmission.

I assumed that torque management worked the same way with our auto's in the CTS-V's. When I spoke to Jesse about removing the Torque Management like I had on the Z06, he said that the slight gains weren't worth the risk of potential damage to the tranny.

And my car ran strong as hell. I raced a european car that traps around 116mph (have to keep it anonymous, PM me if you want details on what car). We did a highway pull from 2nd gear at about 30mph. I easily pulled 10 lengths on him by the time we hit 125mph. We went all the way up to about 145. Then we went again but from 1st gear roll. Traction control turned on and killed me run and it also made the gear hold which made it bounce off the rev limiter. Once it was in 2nd and going, TC was ok and I started to slowly gain on the car, but not like I did before. Probably because he got a good 2 second jump on me with everything included which is very hard to make up on the highway. The 3rd run which was right after we were screwing around on on-ramps and doing some other random 3rd gear pulls here and there was when the heat-soak came in bad. 1st gear, TC off, 20mph roll, the car jumped and we were neck and neck and then all of a sudden I felt my power dying and he started to slowly walk away from me.

Later that night I ran an italian exotic and was able to play along and have the upper hand, so the heat soak did wear off.

Gotham CTS-V
08-03-09, 10:00 AM
Automatic vs Manual should be VERY close guys! The automatic is geared a bit better for more realistic speeds so that is an advantage to the auto. The manual has less drivetrain loss so that should give it more hp to the wheels. Shifting and launching may go to the auto since it is foolproof (Jesse's tune makes it that much better).

All things being said, the manual should dyno a bit higher but maybe the gearing will cancel that advantage out. Otherwise, they should be very very close, just like the 997TT's Auto vs Manuals.

CIWS
08-03-09, 10:04 AM
Well, Corsas are very quiet as long as you aren't torque-ing the motor. Once you get into it, however, that's a different story and I think that's the way they advertise it.

I just don't know how much to attribute to the headers, the increase in boost/HP or what.



I originally had Corsa on the 05 CTS-V, which sounded good, but were still fairly tame compared to some others. But when I added Kooks headers, suddenly when you got on it and the rpms got above about 4200 rpms the exhaust became alive and race engine loud. Almost too much for the street as it was "advertising" to any LEOs around.

Gotham CTS-V
08-03-09, 10:25 AM
Oh and Congrats on having what seems like the highest dyno numbers on a V2 CTS-V to date! Awesome man.


I originally had Corsa on the 05 CTS-V, which sounded good, but were still fairly tame compared to some others. But when I added Kooks headers, suddenly when you got on it and the rpms got above about 4200 rpms the exhaust became alive and race engine loud. Almost too much for the street as it was "advertising" to any LEOs around.

If you pin this car at over 4200RPM's, it'll be more than just the sound that will attract cops! You'll go from 30-80 in a blink of an eye bro! ;)

haterinc
08-03-09, 11:01 AM
Luna

phenomenal power!

question: what did you do about the rear o2s? did you disable them? add them to the AR's? are you throwing any codes as a result of the path you chose?

Razorecko
08-03-09, 11:40 AM
Any reason why you didnt go with a stock exhaust and just do cut outs ?

PSRmark
08-03-09, 12:59 PM
Sorry d3Mark mentioned he was dynoing a manual and auto so I guess he meant another manual car.


I had already dynoed an Auto with similar mods, this was the Manual car I was referring to.

haterinc
08-03-09, 01:06 PM
and what #s did you get with the auto? did it have AR headers or similar?

Gary Wells
08-03-09, 01:12 PM
I had already dynoed an Auto with similar mods, this was the Manual car I was referring to.
Inquiring minds want to know, what did the auto with similar mods pull?

PSRmark
08-03-09, 01:44 PM
Luna:

Great numbers! And I’m looking forward to d3Mark’s more complete report next week. I think Gary Wells is also planning on dropping by the D3 performance shop, which is apparently right around the corner from him, to observe some mods that D3 is planning for the V2.

I have some follow-up questions:

(1) Jesse has reported some fuel-starvation problems once you go above 600 or so hp. Did you see any evidence that you were approaching the “boundary” where fuel delivery might become an issue?

We were getting close to the threshold of the injectors but at no point did we hit it. we were running a solid 11.2-11.3:1 A/F at one point. Howerever, im a very conservative person by nature so I would recc. for future mods to add more pump and inj. IMO going past this point too far would need a deeper build of the engine and supporting parts


(2) Gotham CTS-V has also reported big performance boosts from Wait4me blower mods (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175696-just-got-9-5-pulley-kit.html). But on another thread, he reports on some “heat soak” issues after multiple hard runs (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176053-bad-heatsoak-help.html). Have you experienced any heat soak problems?

We did notice after about 3 back to back runs on the dyno the vehicle was starting to see a small amount of heat soak. Plans are in the works to maintain consistancy here.


(3) If I recall correctly, Jesse’s transmission tune raises the rpm shift point from 6100 to 6500 rpm in “competition” mode. And I think I recall him saying that he does this because the engine actually makes good power at this higher rpm level. (And, again if I recall correctly, the comparable engine in the ZR-1 Vette also shifts around 6500 rpm, though I realize that this may be because it has a titanium valve train that may help the Vette make better power at higher rpm.) So do you have any explanation for why the optimal shift point for your set-up is apparently around 6100 rpm?

By looking at the Graph you can see that it kind of flat lines after 6100, it only falls off slightly. This is an indication of an air restriction beyond 6200 RPM's...meaning that at that point either it cant inhale or exhale anymore air to support more HP. I'm not about to dig in to why this is happening since the car is making great power below 6200 and i see NO reason to spin it past that. Im also not sure how Luna would feel with more power than he already has. If he wants we can try to figure it out.




(5) Persons have been reporting very modest noise increases when adding the Corsa exhaust. In fact, some have reported a quieter exhaust at cruise than with the stock mufflers, and complained that the noise increase at idle and WOT is not enough to warrant the expense of the muffler upgrade. So am I correct to assume that it is the headers that are the primary source of the dramatic increase in exhaust sound you have experienced?

This is VERY subjective as I dont think the car is THAT loud, but then again I used to daily drive my n/a 500 horse mustang. It may be loud for a cadillac though...

The headers are a BIG reason for the huge increase in sound. I've installed just corsa's alone and didn't think it was much louder than stock. Stock mufflers would definately quiet this beast down a lot though.



Kyle[/QUOTE]

PSRmark
08-03-09, 01:48 PM
Inquiring minds want to know, what did the auto with similar mods pull?


597.1 horse and 590.3 lb ft

this car was only producing 10.6 psi of usable boost as compared to Luna's 11.0.

CadV
08-03-09, 03:08 PM
597.1 horse and 590.3 lb ft

this car was only producing 10.6 psi of usable boost as compared to Luna's 11.0.

That's encouraging.

Well I can't wait for colder weather.

Luna.
08-03-09, 04:37 PM
Luna: I remember the headers actually decreasing your boost but maintaining a small gain if the car were stock, aka making it more efficient. I also remember that they said HUGE gains were to be had if a pully was installed. Hope you upload some videos for us so we can listen to your car.

My expectations of total boost were very much exceeded.

Based on what I've read on this forum multiple times, I figured that headers would decrease boost. As such, I reasoned that the increase in boost from the 9.0" crank pulley should help offset the (expected) decrease in boost from the headers. To get 3.5-4.0 lbs of boost with the headers...good God...that either means that headers do NOT significantly decrease boost (on my car) or the 9.0" crank-pulley really yields some serious increase in boost...


I originally had Corsa on the 05 CTS-V, which sounded good, but were still fairly tame compared to some others. But when I added Kooks headers, suddenly when you got on it and the rpms got above about 4200 rpms the exhaust became alive and race engine loud. Almost too much for the street as it was "advertising" to any LEOs around.

I to have heard Corsa on V1 and am a Zoomers guy myself. Those 2 were my favorites for V1s (Magnaflow, to me (based on the cars I heard) was VERY quiet; B&B was all over the board, based on the exhaust combination...)

I suppose I wasn't prepared for as loud as it is, based on my experience with the V1s. I do NOT want to scare anyone off, for it DOES sound very good, but, at the same time, it is NOT quiet if you are on the throttle. I bet WOT you can hear the damn thing at least a 1/2 mile away, if not farther...

I SO agree with your comment about how it advertises to the LEOs around. I'm fearful of getting a ticket at the moment, especially since if I'm going WOT, I'm going to be breaking speed limit laws IN A HURRY...haha


Oh and Congrats on having what seems like the highest dyno numbers on a V2 CTS-V to date! Awesome man.

If you pin this car at over 4200RPM's, it'll be more than just the sound that will attract cops! You'll go from 30-80 in a blink of an eye bro! ;)

Many thanks!

When going WOT, you are pretty much attracting everyone's attention...it's compelling...people just have to look...

I know some people are saying, "WTF? Is someone driving a Formula One car on the street?" :)


Luna

phenomenal power!

question: what did you do about the rear o2s? did you disable them? add them to the AR's? are you throwing any codes as a result of the path you chose?

I believe they were simply disabled; I haven't thrown a code yet, but it's only been a few days (several tanks of gas though...:bouncy:)


Any reason why you didnt go with a stock exhaust and just do cut outs ?

Well, I believe that American Racing Headers and Corsa put out a good product, so I just went that route. I guess I'm adhering to the old adage, "Anything worth doing is worth doing right." :)




By looking at the Graph you can see that it kind of flat lines after 6100, it only falls off slightly. This is an indication of an air restriction beyond 6200 RPM's...meaning that at that point either it cant inhale or exhale anymore air to support more HP. I'm not about to dig in to why this is happening since the car is making great power below 6200 and i see NO reason to spin it past that. Im also not sure how Luna would feel with more power than he already has. If he wants we can try to figure it out.

Based overwhelmingly on reliability concerns (perhaps this is just me, as I'm conservative like mad when it comes to this), I have no interest in getting any more power than the car currently has.

As a matter of fact, I would almost be willing to reduce the power to feel better about not blowing a piston! I know this is sacrilegious to say on this forum, but that's how I honestly feel about it. I know well that the concern is about cylinder pressure and not necessarily HP, but still...there's a fairly decent correlation there.





This is VERY subjective as I dont think the car is THAT loud, but then again I used to daily drive my n/a 500 horse mustang. It may be loud for a cadillac though...

The headers are a BIG reason for the huge increase in sound. I've installed just corsa's alone and didn't think it was much louder than stock. Stock mufflers would definately quiet this beast down a lot though.


Agree that this is very subjective.

The '09V is truly an exceptional car, for, with the windows up, it really isn't that bad at all.

But put the windows down and nail the sucker---yikes--that will keep you up for a couple hours... :bouncy:

And that has nothing to do with what others hear...it's DEFINITELY an attention getter...lol

Hopefully the videos will give a fair representation.

PSRmark
08-03-09, 04:48 PM
Well then I say lets throw the stock mufflers back on and quiet her down, that SHOULD kick some HP's out of her as well...

We did dial it back some if you recall. when we were at 11.8:1 A/F it laid down 621hp and 624tq. we added fuel and pulled timing out which is why your torque came down so much. I would have never let it out the door with 11.8 a/f anyways.

Luna.
08-03-09, 04:57 PM
Well then I say lets throw the stock mufflers back on and quiet her down, that SHOULD kick some HP's out of her as well...

We did dial it back some if you recall. when we were at 11.8:1 A/F it laid down 621hp and 624tq. we added fuel and pulled timing out which is why your torque came down so much. I would have never let it out the door with 11.8 a/f anyways.

I considered that, but I fail to rationalize how restricting the exhaust would make the pistons last longer/more reliable, so, in my mind, it comes down to sound, which I'm debating. Like I said, it's NOT bad, I'm just debating if I want it that loud, as attracting LEO isn't my #1 choice...lol

And I know well that you are the conservative one. You and I--on the same page. That other slacker at D3? You know, the "Yin" guy from the Yin-Yang duo? Yeah, he's trouble... ;)

On a more serious note, it was a pleasure to meet you and do business together. I wouldn't hesitate for a second recommending D3 to anyone on this forum. Great, great job and I look forward to causing more mayhem elsewhere (although, you two are NOT going to convince me to go crazy with my V1--been there, done that!) :p

PSRmark
08-03-09, 05:05 PM
I considered that, but I fail to rationalize how restricting the exhaust would make the pistons last longer/more reliable, so, in my mind, it comes down to sound, which I'm debating. Like I said, it's NOT bad, I'm just debating if I want it that loud, as attracting LEO isn't my #1 choice...lol

And I know well that you are the conservative one. You and I--on the same page. That other slacker at D3? You know, the "Yin" guy from the Yin-Yang duo? Yeah, he's trouble... ;)

On a more serious note, it was a pleasure to meet you and do business together. I wouldn't hesitate for a second recommending D3 to anyone on this forum. Great, great job and I look forward to causing more mayhem elsewhere (although, you two are NOT going to convince me to go crazy with my V1--been there, done that!) :p


hahaha, laughing hard at the "Yin" comment!

yeah you should put the V1 together with a stock engine...the 427 is considered "stock" right? lol

Gary Wells
08-03-09, 05:10 PM
597.1 horse and 590.3 lb ft

this car was only producing 10.6 psi of usable boost as compared to Luna's 11.0.
Very encouraging indeed.

kck
08-03-09, 06:00 PM
SlvrBullIT: I found the perfect combination already, but it is a little on the expensive side. If you want the best of both worlds it is the only choice I could find. First you get the wait4me exhaust the one that is cut to use the stock exhaust, after that you order a pair of mufflers called "Varex Mufflers" by an australian company called Xforce which have an electronic switch for butterfly valves inside the mufflers. Friend has them on his 6.2L Lumina SS (pontiac G8) and I love the sound switch thing. 2 mufflers will cost you about 1000 bucks though LOL
You might want to look it up if you are willing to pay for the performance + sound change thing
(sorry for going off topic)

aceofblitz:

Thanks for the reference to the Varex Mufflers from Xforce. I’ve been considering how to build an exhaust system that further enhances the outstanding “dual-mode” (performance/luxury) features of the V. I was looking for something like the bypass muffler system on Z06/ZR-1 (and upgraded “base”) Vettes. The Xforce system would appear even more flexible.

Based on information on the Xforce web site, it would appear that the “sport” mode is essentially an unrestricted (no muffler) exhaust system. And the “normal” mode is supposed to be equivalent to the “stock” system. However, one concern I would have is whether the “stock-sounding” mode is really as quiet as the V’s own stock mufflers – given that I really do want a “quiet cruise” when in this mode.

Also, from what Jesse has reported, the V’s stock mufflers are not very restrictive. So, even if the Xforce mufflers are as quiet as the V’s stock mufflers, I would then be concerned that they would not be as free-flowing. I would hate to observe a drop in both horsepower and gas mileage when using the Xforce mufflers in their “stock” configuration.

As a possibly alternative, Razorecko has suggested electric cutouts. Has anyone had any experiences with such cutouts? The one company I looked at a while ago had a “cabin control” option that apparently could be “dialed” for percentage bypass – much like the “remote-control” option of the Xforce by-pass muffler product. It would seem that an advantage of the cutouts is that one could retain the excellent stock mufflers of the V. Additionally, it would seem like there should be fewer potential installation problems if one uses the stock mufflers rather than “fitting” a non-stock muffler to the V’s exhaust system – but I’m completely “clueless” regarding these installation issues. Finally, it would seem that cutouts are quite a bit less expensive ($400 as I recall) than the Xforce system. On the other hand, I don’t think I want to “mar” the V’s interior with “cabin mounting” of the controls for the cutout system I saw. Hopefully, there are cutouts that have remote controls like the Xforce by-pass muffler system.

Luna:

I don’t mean to hijack your thread concerning dyno info on performance upgrades. But it’s at least partially your fault, given that your post raises so many interesting issues!

Kyle

Gary Wells
08-03-09, 06:24 PM
Kyle;
I know of several of the turbo Buick crowd that has installed remote controlled cutouts to varying degrees of success, and at least 1 of the TurboBuick.Com supporting supliers has some type of cutout available. Also, I think that these cutouts are somewhat popular with the "Jet-set" crowd on CorvetteForum.Com.
Probably quite a bit of info on CorvetteForum.Com. I think that the cut-outs could be more of a problem that they are worth, I think that their actual performance enhancement capability is somewhat limited compared to what is available on today's market for high flow cats & muffs. Just my $.02 worth, before Kali taxes, of course.

Gary Wells
08-03-09, 06:37 PM
Kyle:
These are designed to work & mount off of a '84-'87 turbo brick "dump" pipe which is an integral pipe welded onto a turbo brick down pipe.

http://www.buickgn.com/electricexhaustcutout.htm

On a Caddy, these would be more bling than bang, I think.

Dr. Design
08-03-09, 09:29 PM
Sorry guys, the video will be up by tomorrow as we are running a little bit behind today.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Luna.
08-03-09, 09:39 PM
I just reconciled all of my invoices.

The total cost was $6k for EVERYTHING that got my car to the results posted in this thread (parts, shipping charges, minor exhaust fabrication charge to mate the headers to the Corsa exhaust, taxes, having to deal with me (:D), etc.)

Just thought some of you would like to know.

Gary Wells
08-03-09, 09:47 PM
That's a pretty good price for that kind of RWHP & RWTQ. I think that I will be visiting James at D3 before long. Maybe a 160 thermo, air box modification, & tune. Maybe they have some type of auto tranny tune up their sleeve similar to Jesse's?

Luna.
08-03-09, 10:00 PM
That's a pretty good price for that kind of RWHP & RWTQ. I think that I will be visiting James at D3 before long. Maybe a 160 thermo, air box modification, & tune. Maybe they have some type of auto tranny tune up their sleeve similar to Jesse's?

I'm pretty sure they do transmission tunes as well, but I think the price goes up a little bit because of the additional time required in that.

I'll let you chat with D3 though... :)

Dr. Design
08-04-09, 04:28 PM
Hello,
Sure, give us a call and Mark can let you know what can be done safely with your tune.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


That's a pretty good price for that kind of RWHP & RWTQ. I think that I will be visiting James at D3 before long. Maybe a 160 thermo, air box modification, & tune. Maybe they have some type of auto tranny tune up their sleeve similar to Jesse's?

PSRmark
08-04-09, 08:20 PM
Video is up!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMjTMAZS_bI

CIWS
08-04-09, 08:29 PM
That has a nice mean sound to it :yup:

Gary Wells
08-04-09, 09:24 PM
Hello,
Sure, give us a call and Mark can let you know what can be done safely with your tune.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Thanks, I will be talking to you guys soon.

haterinc
08-05-09, 12:19 PM
guys this car sounds reallllly wicked... i watched the video a couple of times and i'm assuming that judging by my captivation and the ear to ear grin on my face my girlfriend came over to see what i was watching because i think she assumed i was looking at... uhhh... umm something else lol

Luna can you tell me how it is for daily driving at cruising speeds... say 35 and 65? any drone or does it wear on you at all?

Luna.
08-05-09, 02:07 PM
guys this car sounds reallllly wicked... i watched the video a couple of times and i'm assuming that judging by my captivation and the ear to ear grin on my face my girlfriend came over to see what i was watching because i think she assumed i was looking at... uhhh... umm something else lol

Luna can you tell me how it is for daily driving at cruising speeds... say 35 and 65? any drone or does it wear on you at all?

That is TOO funny... :D

I'm not sure it's fair to judge so early, for it's hard NOT to like the power that the car is currently generating; I'm still as giddy as a school-boy right now because it's so strong...

Corsas are known for not having any drone and I haven't detected any significant amounts at all. Further, as long as you don't get your foot into it, it's totally tame--like, "as-quiet-as-stock" tame. Note this is NOT easy, for the torque is rather intoxicating & it doesn't take much to get the exhaust rolling...

WITH THE WINDOWS UP, the car isn't too bad either, even if you are into the throttle a little bit. You MOST certainly hear the exhaust roaring, but the cabin of our cars is pretty damn nice at insulating its passengers from outside sound. Pity the onlookers though... :)

Because relibility is SO HIGH on my concern list, I still can state that the primary thing that keeps me up at night isn't the sound, it's my fear that one/more of the pistons are going to fail. My nervousness has decreased a little bit over the past couple of days, but my eyebrow is still raised. Note that this very well might just be my own paranoia, but I really need to read more about how I have nothing to worry about.

Jesse? Mark? Anyone?? :lildevil:

My 2nd fear is now that I'm going to be attracting the attention of nearby LEOs far too much, rather than the car is simply too loud for my taste...

PSRmark
08-05-09, 02:21 PM
That is TOO funny... :D

I'm not sure it's fair to judge so early, for it's hard NOT to like the power that the car is currently generating; I'm still as giddy as a school-boy right now because it's so strong...

Corsas are known for not having any drone and I haven't detected any significant amounts at all. Further, as long as you don't get your foot into it, it's totally tame--like, "as-quiet-as-stock" tame. Note this is NOT easy, for the torque is rather intoxicating & it doesn't take much to get the exhaust rolling...

WITH THE WINDOWS UP, the car isn't too bad either, even if you are into the throttle a little bit. You MOST certainly hear the exhaust roaring, but the cabin of our cars is pretty damn nice at insulating its passengers from outside sound.

Because relibility is SO HIGH on my concern list, I still can state that the primary thing that keeps me up at night isn't the sound, it's my fear that one/more of the pistons are going to fail. My nervousness has decreased a little bit over the past couple of days, but my eyebrow is still raised. Note that this very well might just be my own paranoia, but I really need to read more about how I have nothing to worry about.

Jesse? Mark? Anyone?? :lildevil:

My 2nd fear is now that I'm going to be attracting the attention of nearby LEOs far too much, rather than the car is simply too loud for my taste...


I really dont think you have anything to fear, like I have said previously I am confident that boost levels should be safe up to about 12 PSI. My biggest concern was excessive cyl pressures and temperature. From everything we have tested to date(your car included) I believe you are well under that margin. Next time you bring it in, we can make it a lil safer in the tune than it already is for your peace of mind.

Luna.
08-05-09, 02:31 PM
I really dont think you have anything to fear, like I have said previously I am confident that boost levels should be safe up to about 12 PSI. My biggest concern was excessive cyl pressures and temperature. From everything we have tested to date(your car included) I believe you are well under that margin. Next time you bring it in, we can make it a lil safer in the tune than it already is for your peace of mind.

You're a good man Mark. If you tell me I have nothing to worry about, then I will cease immediately. :)

Oh, there is one other HUGE drawback to these modifications...

My MPG has gone down exponentially due to having way too heavy a foot. Now I understand that few, if anyone, really purchases this car with MPG in mind (and you shouldn't), but prepare yourself...you will NOT be getting even reasonable MPG for at least a few weeks after having these mods installed... :halo:

wait4me
08-05-09, 02:40 PM
At this 630 level., What was injector duty cycle, and What was the FPDM duty cycle at, and Actual rail pressure?

At 600, you have 100% injector duty cycle "meaning they cant Open any more and are full open to supply any more fuel" . FPDM "fuel pressure control module pulse width modulation" is 100% "meaning it cant supply any more FUEK VOLUME to support the commanded pressures" and fuel rail pressure drops to 55 "showing that the fuel demand is not being met as needed.. That is BORDERLINE enough fuel to support itself at the 600hp exact mark.. If you have more there is potential for failure. Hence the reason why i dont suggest certain modification combinations...

PSRmark
08-05-09, 02:55 PM
At this 630 level., What was injector duty cycle, and What was the FPDM duty cycle at, and Actual rail pressure?

At 600, you have 100% injector duty cycle "meaning they cant Open any more and are full open to supply any more fuel" . FPDM "fuel pressure control module pulse width modulation" is 100% "meaning it cant supply any more FUEK VOLUME to support the commanded pressures" and fuel rail pressure drops to 55 "showing that the fuel demand is not being met as needed.. That is BORDERLINE enough fuel to support itself at the 600hp exact mark.. If you have more there is potential for failure. Hence the reason why i dont suggest certain modification combinations...


FPDM was comanding 99% and Inj Duty cycle ranged from 90-92%, we were at one point running 11.2 A/F with no sign of it leaning out. Remember that this is a Dynapack and they typically read a little higher than a mustang dyno or even a dynojet.

Luna.
08-05-09, 02:55 PM
FPDM was comanding 99% and Inj Duty cycle ranged from 90-92%, we were at one point running 11.2 A/F with no sign of it leaning out. Remember that this is a Dynapack and they typically read a little higher than a mustang dyno or even a dynojet.

Although, my "baseline" run with the Dynapack was stunningly similar to what I got at RPM Motors. As such, if it's reading higher, I'm not sure it's significantly higher.

wait4me
08-05-09, 03:36 PM
With a break point at .6. The injectors with the fuel pressure available and that duty cycle, and the flow rate at the commanded fuel pressure, puts the actual Engine horsepower at 680. Then you subtract the 21% of your drivetrain loss. If my math is correct, Then you are making 536 to the wheels, which is right in line with everyone else with the 9 inch rings.. My math is probably just wrong though.

aceofblitz
08-05-09, 04:12 PM
ACE HAET MATH.

Just for your info Jesse, I got a call from home from a friend who ordered parts from you and he got 615 rwhp as well lol.
He probably dyno'd on a dynapack too because thats the closest dyno to his shop.

wait4me
08-05-09, 04:20 PM
Man, im looking harsh. And im not meaning too.. 600 horsepower requires more boost and parts than MOST people are putting on thier cars. A 9 inch pulley just aint gunna do it. A 9 inch pulley is a 9 inch pulley. They should all be making EXACTLY the same amount of boost as any other 9 inch pulley from any manufacturer..

I have 2 different types here, and both 9s make the exact same hp on the car. I had to test it to make sure.

Gear ratios on the dynopacks are important. When they are correct, then the numbers come out better and more accurate.



OHH sh*t, i figured it out. Do this math...

630 hp as shown on dyno.
Remove 94.5 horsepower from the number.
That equals 535.5 horsepower from the run..

How did i get these numbers?

wait4me
08-05-09, 04:35 PM
Ok i guess i will explain.

Duty cycles of injectors can tell you very closely the horsepower of the engine. As long as your input data is correct. As the math showed, Rwhp was 536 according to fuel usage and duty cycles@commanded fuel pressures.

Now we go on to the other numbers..

On the dyno run, the gear ratios again are not correct. It should be set to 3.23 right? What is the difference from 3.23 to a 3.73 as shown. 15% right. So what happens when you remove 15% from the horsepower number as shown on the runs?

630 - 94.5 = 535.5 which now matches the fuel consumption math exactly..

Luna.
08-05-09, 04:48 PM
With a break point at .6. The injectors with the fuel pressure available and that duty cycle, and the flow rate at the commanded fuel pressure, puts the actual Engine horsepower at 680. Then you subtract the 21% of your drivetrain loss. If my math is correct, Then you are making 536 to the wheels, which is right in line with everyone else with the 9 inch rings.. My math is probably just wrong though.

:hmm:

15% would seem a litte more reasonable in my mind, at least for a MT '09 CTS-V.

I got ~470 rwhp in stock form at RPM Motors, which seems right in line with many other people. If 556 engine HP is correct, ~15% would seem pretty close.

As such, if person X got ~535rwhp after all modifications, and you wish to compare that person to my results (I'm totally baffled as to why, but okay...), hopefully they got ~435rwhp in stock form. This might appear reasonable if you continue to use a guess of 21% drivetrain loss (556*79% (1 less 21%) = 439 rwhp), but I'm not sure that is applicable for a manual.

When a stock AT '09 CTS-V gets run at RPM Motors, I'll post the results to get at least an idea of how they are comparing.

I can only speak intelligently about my car & 15% appears to be what I got at RPM Motors, as well as D3, since they nearly matched RPM's results.

In any case...

If you are uncomfortable with the total HP number, I'd probably focus on the gains we achieved: 102 rwhp and 82 rwtq.

Those are the money numbers in my mind & considerably more challenging to dispute.

wait4me
08-05-09, 04:54 PM
Yes a gain is a gain, Those are definatly some good gains. :) The car is a blast to drive at that horsepower level. A 9.5 is about the limit most will want to go for that is the part where the car dont need any more power for 98% of us.

California cars have been dynoing in the 440 area on our dynos during the summer. As are most others on this site. Sticking the exact motor on an engine dyno put out 552.8 engine hp @6200. This is why i said that they are a 21% loss from drivetrain. Which also matches the math.

PSRmark
08-05-09, 04:55 PM
Ok i guess i will explain.

Duty cycles of injectors can tell you very closely the horsepower of the engine. As long as your input data is correct. As the math showed, Rwhp was 536 according to fuel usage and duty cycles@commanded fuel pressures.

Now we go on to the other numbers..

On the dyno run, the gear ratios again are not correct. It should be set to 3.23 right? What is the difference from 3.23 to a 3.73 as shown. 15% right. So what happens when you remove 15% from the horsepower number as shown on the runs?

630 - 94.5 = 535.5 which now matches the fuel consumption math exactly..

How is this set wrong? the rear gear on a manual IS 3.73, in any case the dyno was auto calculated to obtain the proper setting and it came up with 3.72....thats .01 off of the actual gear ratio

wait4me
08-05-09, 04:59 PM
Sorry, I thought luna's car was a auto car...

Mark, what generation build date was luna's car? like month built. Im keeping track of things. I can explain in pm if you like.

PSRmark
08-05-09, 05:02 PM
Sorry, I thought luna's car was a auto car...

Mark, what generation build date was luna's car? like month built. Im keeping track of things. I can explain in pm if you like.

I'm not sure, you would have to ask him. I dont recall what the door sticker said...

Luna.
08-05-09, 05:52 PM
Yes a gain is a gain, Those are definatly some good gains. :) The car is a blast to drive at that horsepower level. A 9.5 is about the limit most will want to go for that is the part where the car dont need any more power for 98% of us.

California cars have been dynoing in the 440 area on our dynos during the summer. As are most others on this site. Sticking the exact motor on an engine dyno put out 552.8 engine hp @6200. This is why i said that they are a 21% loss from drivetrain. Which also matches the math.

I strongly recall that my stock ~470rwhp (it was exactly 466 or 469--I can't remember which) being in the ballpark as to what several others on this forum had gotten, so I had to look up a few. After a quick look-up, I found the following:

STOCK RUNS:
Dannboss (with the V on steroids...): 493 and 506 rwhp in stock form
Razerecho: 461 on a Mustang dyno
American Racing Headers: 469.2 rwhp
Dave Golder: 470
Luna: 466 or 469 (I can't recall, but does it really make a difference?)

I don't know...seems pretty reasonable to me and not out of the ordinary.

Kat is the only one I can think of that ran a (low?) 440rwhp, but I seem to recall it was a super hot day or something that was, possibly, skewing the results.





I'm not sure, you would have to ask him. I dont recall what the door sticker said...

I have my V1 today...what exactly am I supposed to look up now??

Razorecko
08-05-09, 06:10 PM
^ any link to Danboss's dyno run/ conditions - It seems almost magical to be cranking out 30-40hp/tq than any other v

Luna.
08-05-09, 07:00 PM
^ any link to Danboss's dyno run/ conditions - It seems almost magical to be cranking out 30-40hp/tq than any other v

Here's a link to that rather long thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/166144-2009-stock-cts-v-dyno-520-a.html

He said he actually got 520rwhp if he removed the top of the airbox, which isn't out of the ordinary, based on some of the other results some people were getting.

I guess my point is that, even if you throw his numbers out, you're still looking at an average of ~467rwhp, which is about what I got, to say nothing about the fact that many will argue vehemently that Mustang dynos often read a little lower (which could push you a tad higher). That translates into an ~16% loss. Perhaps the manuals dyno significantly higher than autos due to less loss...I don't know.

As such, I got ~470rwhp at RPM Motors, then he tuned it and got me to ~520rwhp. Then, the first thing D3 did was put it on the dyno (so we can measure the gains of the mods installed--single most important step in my humble opinion!) and their dyno results were so shockingly similar to what I got from RPM Motors, my mouth drops open just thinking about it. Then, a final dyno run was used and the difference was calculated, suggesting what the gains were.

As a former auditor, I can tell you that that's a pretty good connection & I'd probably accept that as reasonable audit proof that the dyno isn't totally out of whack, nor reading egregious numbers. However, it seems some might want a belt-and-suspender approach, so I'll probably run my car back to RPM Motors, or even have Andy at A&A Corvette run it on his dyno (RPM Motors would be my 1st choice though, as they have already run it on their dyno) and see what results he gets. If he's in the ball-park, I'd say the game is on...

haterinc
08-05-09, 07:34 PM
to the STRIP to settle this LOL

aceofblitz
08-05-09, 07:39 PM
IMHO, screw the numbers, the goal of a dyno is only to tell if you're gaining power so that tuners get better feedback on whatever they're doing. You can't simply go around comparing cars from dyno to dyno or city to city. The loads on the dyno are quite different, the elevation levels, the ambient air temperature and pressure, the humidity, EVERYTHING. Even 1/4 mile times vary from track to track. the only thing you should care about is that your car is much more powerful than it was stock, and that when you're up against an M5 or a Ferrari F430, you're most likely going to spank them.

Luna.
08-05-09, 07:49 PM
IMHO, screw the numbers, the goal of a dyno is only to tell if you're gaining power so that tuners get better feedback on whatever they're doing. You can't simply go around comparing cars from dyno to dyno or city to city. The loads on the dyno are quite different, the elevation levels, the ambient air temperature and pressure, the humidity, EVERYTHING. Even 1/4 mile times vary from track to track. the only thing you should care about is that your car is much more powerful than it was stock, and that when you're up against an M5 or a Ferrari F430, you're most likely going to spank them.

EXACTLY ACE. Your timing was priceless... :worship:

Because the moderators only put a 40 minute limit on changing posts (very strange, gentlemen..), the changes I was typing into the post above just got rejected!! LOL

I was saying EXACTLY THAT...

If I was on the other side of this equation, I'd be looking at the GAINS ACHIEVED and then loosely adding that number to my base dyno run, at wherever you have your car tuned at, to set a ball-park estimation in terms of final power.

That's about the only thing a dyno is good for, BUT that is very, very valuable information!! You get to (loosely) MEASURE THE GAINS FROM YOUR MODIFICATIONS!

Personally, I have little interest in winning an internet race or something equally foolish; just doesn't bother me. What would make me raise an eyebrow is if I got significanly different GAINS than someone else did--THAT would make me ask why...

SlvrBullIT
08-05-09, 08:39 PM
Since we are all over the place with +600RWHP to <500RWHP with same mods....kind of same mods....6sp Man....oh no 6sp Auto.... This dyno...that dyno, this rear end ratio, that rear end ratio.....I R CONFUZED :confused:

I'll try and make this easier for me and everyone can continue with the regularly scheduled program and theory craft K??? :thumbsup:

A: I would like to make the V as uninhibited as possible with bolt-ons without sacrificing possible "expensive" replacements... like an engine or tranny.
B: I know changing so much as a oil filter can "jeopardize" longevity, so mainly what can be done with "reasonable" understanding if you flub a mod may brick your car but is generally a safe bet to add power or lessen parasitics and not markedly affect durability.
C: I understand it's going to be mostly intake and exhaust mods, so here is my list below and can someone who has done this or is doing the same types of mods can tell me if I'm out of my gourd or am I on the right track?

So if I want to do headers (AMR, Kooks w/e), hi-flow cats, mid-pipes (whoever), mufflers (corsa w/e), CAI, HX upgrade, (do I do a 9" crank pully and a upper pully... or is it one and not the other?), pull(y or ies) mod, tune, and all that is done correctly on a 6sp Auto, will it get 100+RWHP? safe to own without blowing up something? If this is questionable on reliability how much of the above can be done safely for good power and safe operation of the car with normal maintenance intervals and responsible track use?

Thanks :worship:

I thought I knew what I wanted to do, but after reading this thread....I'm WAY LOST:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:

SlvrBullIT
08-05-09, 08:40 PM
^^^
<waves2fingers> Their was no raving mad lunatic who posted above... </wave2fingers>

kck
08-05-09, 09:55 PM
Since we are all over the place with +600RWHP to <500RWHP with same mods....kind of same mods....6sp Man....oh no 6sp Auto.... This dyno...that dyno, this rear end ratio, that rear end ratio.....I R CONFUZED :confused:

I'll try and make this easier for me and everyone can continue with the regularly scheduled program and theory craft K??? :thumbsup:

A: I would like to make the V as uninhibited as possible with bolt-ons without sacrificing possible "expensive" replacements... like an engine or tranny.
B: I know changing so much as a oil filter can "jeopardize" longevity, so mainly what can be done with "reasonable" understanding if you flub a mod may brick your car but is generally a safe bet to add power or lessen parasitics and not markedly affect durability.
C: I understand it's going to be mostly intake and exhaust mods, so here is my list below and can someone who has done this or is doing the same types of mods can tell me if I'm out of my gourd or am I on the right track?

So if I want to do headers (AMR, Kooks w/e), hi-flow cats, mid-pipes (whoever), mufflers (corsa w/e), CAI, HX upgrade, (do I do a 9" crank pully and a upper pully... or is it one and not the other?), pull(y or ies) mod, tune, and all that is done correctly on a 6sp Auto, will it get 100+RWHP? safe to own without blowing up something? If this is questionable on reliability how much of the above can be done safely for good power and safe operation of the car with normal maintenance intervals and responsible track use?

Thanks :worship:

I thought I knew what I wanted to do, but after reading this thread....I'm WAY LOST:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:

SlvrBullIT:

I’ll let our forum experts provide feedback on most of the mods you are proposing to do. However, if I’m interpreting Jesse’s earlier posts correctly, he would appear to suggest that you are unlikely to gain much (other than a louder exhaust) from adding headers. Jesse seemed to repeat this viewpoint when I recently talked with him on the phone.

I’ve seen some posts from other forum members that seem to suggest that headers may not provide much benefit until you do pulley mods to boost blower pressure. However, it was my understanding from my phone conversation with Jesse that he does not think headers provide much benefit even when doing pulley mods. I believe he did qualify this statement a bit by noting that longer-tube headers might provide at least modest benefits.

In any case, it appears that Jesse will shortly be reporting on his dyno results for pulley mods that include the addition of American Racing headers (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176294-ordered-set-american-racing-headers.html). So we should have some more empirical evidence to determine how much headers may enhance performance after first doing pulley mods.

Kyle

Luna.
08-05-09, 10:09 PM
In any case, it appears that Jesse will shortly be reporting on his dyno results for pulley mods that include the addition of American Racing headers (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176294-ordered-set-american-racing-headers.html). So we should have some more empirical evidence to determine how much headers may enhance performance after first doing pulley mods.

Kyle

At this point, there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to believe that someone substantially duplicating these mods should see significantly less gains. Will the dyno that each person uses duplicate ~615 rwhp, like my car did? No, I wouldn't say that.

What I would say, however, is that it is reasonable to expect that someone can set their expectations that their car should generate in the ballpark of 100 rwhp from duplicating these mods.

Dr. Design
08-05-09, 10:26 PM
Agreed!! I would also like to point out that the automatics will also provide similar numbers to those already posted by Luna. Not quite as high, but within 10-20WHP range on the same amount of boost!

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


At this point, there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to believe that someone substantially duplicating these mods should see significantly less gains. Will the dyno that each person uses duplicate ~615 rwhp, like my car did? No, I wouldn't say that.

What I would say, however, is that it is reasonable to expect that someone can set their expectations that their car should generate in the ballpark of 100 rwhp from duplicating these mods.

kck
08-05-09, 11:25 PM
At this point, there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to believe that someone substantially duplicating these mods should see significantly less gains. Will the dyno that each person uses duplicate ~615 rwhp, like my car did? No, I wouldn't say that.

What I would say, however, is that it is reasonable to expect that someone can set their expectations that their car should generate in the ballpark of 100 rwhp from duplicating these mods.

Luna:

I’m sure that you gained 100 rwhp – which is very impressive. My comments were directed at how much of that gain might be due to the headers. In one of your earlier posts on this thread in response to one of the questions I previously posted, I thought you were saying that you did not do a “step-by-step” test of the horsepower gains due to each specific mod (CAI, Corsa, headers, & crank pulley) – so you could not tell me what specific gain you got from the headers. But I may well have misinterpreted your comments. So please set me straight, if I did misunderstand!

Kyle

Luna.
08-05-09, 11:40 PM
Luna:

I’m sure that you gained 100 rwhp – which is very impressive. My comments were directed at how much of that gain might be due to the headers. In one of your earlier posts on this thread in response to one of the questions I previously posted, I thought you were saying that you did not do a “step-by-step” test of the horsepower gains due to each specific mod (CAI, Corsa, headers, & crank pulley) – so you could not tell me what specific gain you got from the headers. But I may well have misinterpreted your comments. So please set me straight, if I did misunderstand!

Kyle

No, you are absolutely correct in that I did NOT install each item individually. I actually briefly considered that, but it just would take too long and cost too much money. No misunderstanding! :highfive:

I hope that Jesse does a stock V, tunes it, then adds headers, then tunes it. If he does it on his already pulley upgraded car, that might not be indicative of results that can be reasonably expected from a car that goes straight to headers, for I've also heard that the headers really shine with the pulley upgrade(s).

SlvrBullIT
08-06-09, 01:52 AM
So was it the 8.5 or 9 ring and the upper pully swap to get 11-12lbs boost?
Keep stock manifold and mufflers, but change the midpipes to get best results?

Gotham CTS-V
08-06-09, 10:24 AM
SlvrBullIT, I completely understand where you're coming from. I am not going to comment on the other setups on these forums since everybody already gave you their reviews. But with the setup I have which is a 9.5" crank pulley, CAI, and tune all from wait4me, I have seen a DRASTIC increase in power and speed. I used to own a sub-10 second street car so I know speed and for me to be impressed by the V means something.

So far I have put more than 500 miles on the car since the mods. Not 1 complaint. Runs identical to stock, just has much more power, better response, sounds sick, and the shifting is improved. I also beat on my car pretty bad so it's not that I'm p*ssyfooting around.

Luna.
08-06-09, 12:40 PM
So was it the 8.5 or 9 ring and the upper pully swap to get 11-12lbs boost?
Keep stock manifold and mufflers, but change the midpipes to get best results?

I didn't do an upper pulley swap, for, not only is that not an easy change, but I also fear belt-slip (like I had with my maggie on my V1 with the 2.6" pulley). As such, I just went with the 9" crankpulley and called it a day in terms of adding boost.


I have no idea what the best combination is going to be to get the best results for anyone's car.

I would say, however, that I just can't believe that an '09 V is going to perform WORSE with headers (like American Racing Headers or Kooks, etc.) + Corsa + a CAI (like Hennessey).

kck
08-06-09, 03:54 PM
I didn't do an upper pulley swap, for, not only is that not an easy change, but I also fear belt-slip (like I had with my maggie on my V1 with the 2.6" pulley). As such, I just went with the 9" crankpulley and called it a day in terms of adding boost.

I have no idea what the best combination is going to be to get the best results for anyone's car.

I would say, however, that I just can't believe that an '09 V is going to perform WORSE with headers (like American Racing Headers or Kooks, etc.) + Corsa + a CAI (like Hennessey).

Luna:

I don’t recall seeing posts on any threads that suggest a person would lose horsepower by installing headers, CAI, and Corsas. I think there just may be some questions regarding how much horsepower one gains by doing the header mod – an issue of “bang-for-the-buck” (see, for example, Jesse’s post at http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/174492-removed-corsas-placed-stock-mufflers-ar.html). And based on previous dyno posts from Jesse, it appears that the CAI will gain only 5 or so hp. I don’t recall seeing anything about hp gain from the Corsa muffler mod. But Jesse has reported dyno runs that indicated taking the “crimps” out of the stock exhaust and dropping the stock mufflers gives about 18 hp (as he notes in the above thread I’ve inserted), and adding the stock mufflers back into the exhaust system only loses a few hp. If this is true, then the Corsas could not provide more than a very few extra hp over the stock mufflers – even if they could approach the horsepower levels generated by a “no-muffler” system.

However, I would assume that most people add Corsas primarily for the sound quality. Indeed, I have the impression that some persons have been disappointed that the Corsas added to the stock exhaust manifold do not produce enough extra exhaust sound. However, other posters seem to indicate that the Corsas provide the “perfect” sound quality – removing the slight “drone” that some persons hear with the stock muffler at certain rpm levels, retaining the generally “quiet cruise” noise level of the stock mufflers, but producing a more aggressive idle and WOT exhaust sound than the stock mufflers. At least one poster has suggested that the Corsa mufflers is the way the exhaust system should come from the factory.

Kyle

haterinc
08-06-09, 06:29 PM
Kyle,

I'm not sure how much hp the Corsas really free up, but they're an acquired sound taste. If you've ever heard an outboard motor on a cigarette boat, that is what Corsas kind of sound like. If I was at my home pc, I'd post up my boat video... kind of a rumbling gurgle sound. Its not everyone's cup of tea, but its unique and I like it. I'm still not sold on $1300 for 2 cans though. $800 to a G maybe... I've been talking to Borla to see if they were interested in doing something but they're not biting on it, the only thing they're biting is my ass so far. This is probably due to the ltd production for the V right now. So, I'm planning on the ceramic coated AR's mated up to the stock cans until something I really like comes out.

CEO

Razorecko
08-06-09, 08:05 PM
Corsa's remind me of nascar sounding cars. I would love for borla to make a kit as i love their low rumble.

SlvrBullIT
08-06-09, 09:01 PM
So if headers and exhaust don't add much.....
CAI adds "some"
and crank pulley like 30 (and questionable) how does ~100HP appear at the rear wheels?
So far all I've heard is this and that don't add much if anything and pulley can't all by itself add that amount of HP and TQ....
Am I guessing all the other mods are superfluous until you do a 9.5 crank pulley then the mods come into effect for ~100HP and not the reverse?

Luna.
08-06-09, 09:57 PM
So if headers and exhaust don't add much.....
CAI adds "some"
and crank pulley like 30 (and questionable) how does ~100HP appear at the rear wheels?
So far all I've heard is this and that don't add much if anything and pulley can't all by itself add that amount of HP and TQ....
Am I guessing all the other mods are superfluous until you do a 9.5 crank pulley then the mods come into effect for ~100HP and not the reverse?

I remain skeptical about the headers not adding much. I thought the guys from American Racing Headers got almost 30 and the only thing they did tune wise was lean it out from 10.8 to 11.2.

As far as your last thought, that could very well be true, although I'm not sure you need to do the 9.5" pulley.

Gary Wells
08-06-09, 10:42 PM
It's probably the combination of everything that brings up the high RWHP & RWTQ #'s. As far as the CAI's are, someone on this forum about a month ago posted that during a dyno run on a pretty much bone stock '09 CTS-V, by removing the screws on the top of the air cleaner box and raising the lid about an 1", they gained about 20 or 30 RWHP. There was not a dyno chart for verification. I would believe 5 RWHP on doing the CAI bottom removal without tune, but it seems to me that with a tune it should be at least a little more than 5, maybe about 20 or so. Also someone posted about a CAI and removing the brake duct and that improved things considerably. I don't see an exhaust system doing a heck of a lot, but the mods for de-kinking mentioned by Jesse would seem to be of some value. I can't believe that headers will do a lot on a bone stock motor, but with a combination of other go along mods, (CAI, tune, pulley, etc.) headers would seem to have more of an effect. Maybe I am narrow minded then way that I am looking at this. We really do need to do an Excel spread sheet somewhere where we can get back and look at several options and their combinations at one time. Just a thought, and sorry for a long winded one at that. There are cases where headers on a lopo motor will make things worse. Bone stock turbo buick with headers is a great example. It will fall flat on it's face, but on a tricked motor, say 400 RWHP & above, it will bring it to life.

kck
08-07-09, 12:13 AM
SlvrBullIT, I completely understand where you're coming from. I am not going to comment on the other setups on these forums since everybody already gave you their reviews. But with the setup I have which is a 9.5" crank pulley, CAI, and tune all from wait4me, I have seen a DRASTIC increase in power and speed. I used to own a sub-10 second street car so I know speed and for me to be impressed by the V means something.

So far I have put more than 500 miles on the car since the mods. Not 1 complaint. Runs identical to stock, just has much more power, better response, sounds sick, and the shifting is improved. I also beat on my car pretty bad so it's not that I'm p*ssyfooting around.

Gotham CTS-V:

On another thread, you indicated that you had experienced some issues with heat soak (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176053-bad-heatsoak-help.html). Has that problem gone away? Did you install Wait4me’s larger-capacity heat exchanger?

Also, do you have Wait4me’s less restrictive 3-inch exhaust installed, and what mufflers are you using?

Kyle

kck
08-07-09, 12:29 AM
Kyle,

I'm not sure how much hp the Corsas really free up, but they're an acquired sound taste. If you've ever heard an outboard motor on a cigarette boat, that is what Corsas kind of sound like. If I was at my home pc, I'd post up my boat video... kind of a rumbling gurgle sound. Its not everyone's cup of tea, but its unique and I like it. I'm still not sold on $1300 for 2 cans though. $800 to a G maybe... I've been talking to Borla to see if they were interested in doing something but they're not biting on it, the only thing they're biting is my ass so far. This is probably due to the ltd production for the V right now. So, I'm planning on the ceramic coated AR's mated up to the stock cans until something I really like comes out.

CEO


Corsa's remind me of nascar sounding cars. I would love for borla to make a kit as i love their low rumble.

haterinc & Razorecko:

Thanks for your opinions on the Corsa sound. I’ll have to say that I liked the Corsa sound at idle and WOT on a video I heard. But it’s hard to know how closely it approximates the “real-world” sound.

Although I’m quite comfortable with a more aggressive idle sound and especially a more aggressive WOT sound, I’d really like to retain the “relative quiet” (i.e., “luxury” quality) of the stock mufflers at cruising speeds. So what is your impression of the Corsa sound at “cruise”?

Also, I’m almost certainly going to install the Wait4me 3-inch exhaust system. Is there substantially more noise with the w4m exhasust & Corsas than with the Corsa mufflers installed on the V’s stock exhaust system?

I agree with you, haterinc, that the Corsa mufflers are “over-priced.” And please excuse my ignorance regarding these matters, but can’t other muffler systems (such as the Borla mufflers you mention) be fairly simply adapted to the V’s stock exhaust system or to Jesse’s less restricted exhaust system – i.e., even if the after-market mufflers are not specifically designed for the V? In fact, I thought I read that some forum members have used Bassani or Magnaflow mufflers with the wfm exhaust system.

Kyle

kck
08-07-09, 12:54 AM
So if headers and exhaust don't add much.....
CAI adds "some"
and crank pulley like 30 (and questionable) how does ~100HP appear at the rear wheels?
So far all I've heard is this and that don't add much if anything and pulley can't all by itself add that amount of HP and TQ....
Am I guessing all the other mods are superfluous until you do a 9.5 crank pulley then the mods come into effect for ~100HP and not the reverse?


I remain skeptical about the headers not adding much. I thought the guys from American Racing Headers got almost 30 and the only thing they did tune wise was lean it out from 10.8 to 11.2.

As far as your last thought, that could very well be true, although I'm not sure you need to do the 9.5" pulley.

SlvrBullIT & Luna:

I think you raise some very pertinent questions. I had another lengthy conversation with Jesse earlier today, and I still have the impression he is skeptical of big horsepower gains from header mods and CAI installations on the V, even when combined with pulley mods. However, based on the post Gary Wells made after your two posts, it does seem that there are at least some other performance cars that don’t realize real gains from header mods until they get to higher horsepower levels as a consequence of other performance mods.

In any case, as I’ve mentioned in an earlier post, we soon should get some empirical information to help resolve this issue, when Jesse reports on his dyno tests regarding performance gains from adding American Racing headers after doing pulley mods.

Kyle

Luna.
08-07-09, 11:43 AM
It's probably the combination of everything that brings up the high RWHP & RWTQ #'s. As far as the CAI's are, someone on this forum about a month ago posted that during a dyno run on a pretty much bone stock '09 CTS-V, by removing the screws on the top of the air cleaner box and raising the lid about an 1", they gained about 20 or 30 RWHP. There was not a dyno chart for verification. I would believe 5 RWHP on doing the CAI bottom removal without tune, but it seems to me that with a tune it should be at least a little more than 5, maybe about 20 or so. Also someone posted about a CAI and removing the brake duct and that improved things considerably. I don't see an exhaust system doing a heck of a lot, but the mods for de-kinking mentioned by Jesse would seem to be of some value. I can't believe that headers will do a lot on a bone stock motor, but with a combination of other go along mods, (CAI, tune, pulley, etc.) headers would seem to have more of an effect. Maybe I am narrow minded then way that I am looking at this. We really do need to do an Excel spread sheet somewhere where we can get back and look at several options and their combinations at one time. Just a thought, and sorry for a long winded one at that. There are cases where headers on a lopo motor will make things worse. Bone stock turbo buick with headers is a great example. It will fall flat on it's face, but on a tricked motor, say 400 RWHP & above, it will bring it to life.

Great post Gary. I agree with your sentiment 100%.

Luna.
08-07-09, 11:46 AM
Although I’m quite comfortable with a more aggressive idle sound and especially a more aggressive WOT sound, I’d really like to retain the “relative quiet” (i.e., “luxury” quality) of the stock mufflers at cruising speeds. So what is your impression of the Corsa sound at “cruise”?


I still maintain that Corsa exhaust is totally fine at light throttle, even with headers. It's once you put your foot into it that the game is on.

I took the CFO out to lunch yesterday and he commented that the exhaust was NOT as loud as Zoomers is on my V1. Granted, I may have set his expectations a little high when I was saying how loud it was at WOT & I had NOT gone WOT before he made that comment, but I found it interesting nonetheless...

Dr. Design
08-07-09, 01:49 PM
Hello Kyle,
Here are a few video/sound clips that we did to help people choose their exhaust combinations.

Video #1 = (Kooks headers w/X-pipe, Corsa Mufflers, D3 Air Intake, Tune)
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JbA3_zhNNTY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JbA3_zhNNTY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Video #2 = (Stock revs vs. Corsa Axle Back)
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bbk5kgHUFkI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bbk5kgHUFkI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Finally an old post documenting the HP/TQ gains from just adding the Corsa -
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/165291-corsa-exhaust-now-available-images-video.html


Furthermore we have an 09 CTSV scheduled to go to the dyno today with a set of headers, X-pipe, and Corsa system. We will get some video of that as well. The interesting part about this is that we added a second set of high flow cats to reduce the sound per the customer. It's very easy to get carried away with this car (i.e. straight pipes, dumps, cutouts, etc..), but we try to maintain focus on the fact that it still needs to be a Cadillac at the end of the day. Lunas car sounds unreal, but at the end of the day that beast still sounds like a Cadillac at cruising speeds. At WOT it sounds like a V-Series!! These would sound like no other with open headers, but then that is not a Cadillac is it?

At the end of the day it comes down to preference and quality...

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac









haterinc & Razorecko:

Also, I’m almost certainly going to install the Wait4me 3-inch exhaust system. Is there substantially more noise with the w4m exhasust & Corsas than with the Corsa mufflers installed on the V’s stock exhaust system?


Kyle

kck
08-07-09, 02:27 PM
Dr. Design:

Great post on exhaust systems!

Luna:

I appreciate the update on the exhaust sound you are getting.

Kyle

PSRmark
08-07-09, 03:37 PM
Dr. Design:

Great post on exhaust systems!

Luna:

I appreciate the update on the exhaust sound you are getting.

Kyle

Just to correct myself from something I had mentioned in another post...I had stated that the corsa's alone made 18 rwhp, I stand corrected as it was 16. my bad, sorry about the misinformation.

FYI- I'm out of the office today so i probably wont see any more posts until later this evening.

radix
08-07-09, 04:27 PM
SlvrBullIT & Luna:

I think you raise some very pertinent questions. I had another lengthy conversation with Jesse earlier today, and I still have the impression he is skeptical of big horsepower gains from header mods and CAI installations on the V, even when combined with pulley mods. However, based on the post Gary Wells made after your two posts, it does seem that there are at least some other performance cars that don’t realize real gains from header mods until they get to higher horsepower levels as a consequence of other performance mods.

In any case, as I’ve mentioned in an earlier post, we soon should get some empirical information to help resolve this issue, when Jesse reports on his dyno tests regarding performance gains from adding American Racing headers after doing pulley mods.

Kyle


As I recall it, I think it was stated that the claims of big HP gains from Hennesey?? (and would be the case from propping the lid) were exaggerated because they were transient - if you measured right away when installed you saw big numbers until the ECM had a chance to adapt A/F (likely transient lean?) - Not sure where this was posted -(saw a hint by Jessie in "best CAI" thread, but remember more about it somewhere...)

kck
08-07-09, 06:04 PM
Just to correct myself from something I had mentioned in another post...I had stated that the corsa's alone made 18 rwhp, I stand corrected as it was 16. my bad, sorry about the misinformation.

FYI- I'm out of the office today so i probably wont see any more posts until later this evening.

d3Mark:

Two horsepower is hardly a big error!! But good to know you are so precise.

I think 16 rwhp from just replacing the V’s stock mufflers is very impressive, especially given that the V’s stock muffler system is supposed to be pretty “free-flowing.”


radix:

It’s really cool that both D3 and W4M will be posting dyno information that should help resolve questions regarding what various mods are doing in combination. This empirical testing should greatly help us end-users in making more informed decisions about how we mod our Vs.

Kyle

haterinc
08-07-09, 07:09 PM
I'm still not sold on the Corsas because Jesse said his straight pipes added 18rwhp, so Corsas free up 16 and Jesse's is 3/4 the price? The main problem with the stock exhaust is the lack of flow from crimps and being choked down, which I think can be freed up with the AR's and a piece between the AR's and the stock cans. Jesse seems skeptical that the AR's free up that much horse, but when you increase the airflow and the boost, I have a feeling that they'll show up with strong increases. Whether they're worth $1800 is another question if you can get 18rwhp from Jesse's exhaust w no rear cans. A plus though is the fact that mine will be ceramic coated to help reduce under hood temps and combined with the heat exchanger should prove beneficial over back to back runs or heavy driving.

Dr. Design
08-07-09, 09:58 PM
Hello,
I think it really comes down to preference and sound quality. Yes, the corsa's are expensive. Are the gains there? Yes, they certainly are. Is it worth the list price of $1450? That's up to the person writing the check. You can get a bunch of extra HP if you have the local muffler shop slap on some straight pipes and remove all the resonators. It will most likely be loud as hell, but the HP should be there is that is your only goal.

The reason we like the Corsa system is because it is a high quality unit that performs very well and always fits the first time. We feel it is something that you would expect on a Cadillac. We have to maintain a certainly quality when we offer products to dealerships and the Corsa system provides that.

The main restriction in the system are the mufflers, and not just the crimps. I have to check with one of the guys at Corsa and see what the results were of flowing the factory muffler vs. the Corsa system. The results if I recall correctly were pretty substantial...

As for the headers, you are going down the right track. The headers will continue to prove their worth as you add more upgrades to the vehicle (i.e. intake, boost, etc..). We showed some nice gains with just the headers and exhaust. So the gains are there to be had. To say they dont add much HP is subjective, the gains however have been measured. I will see if we can dig up an old dyno sheet that would support my comments.


Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac




I'm still not sold on the Corsas because Jesse said his straight pipes added 18rwhp, so Corsas free up 16 and Jesse's is 3/4 the price? The main problem with the stock exhaust is the lack of flow from crimps and being choked down, which I think can be freed up with the AR's and a piece between the AR's and the stock cans. Jesse seems skeptical that the AR's free up that much horse, but when you increase the airflow and the boost, I have a feeling that they'll show up with strong increases. Whether they're worth $1800 is another question if you can get 18rwhp from Jesse's exhaust w no rear cans. A plus though is the fact that mine will be ceramic coated to help reduce under hood temps and combined with the heat exchanger should prove beneficial over back to back runs or heavy driving.

kck
08-08-09, 09:16 PM
Hello,
... The main restriction in the system are the mufflers, and not just the crimps. I have to check with one of the guys at Corsa and see what the results were of flowing the factory muffler vs. the Corsa system. The results if I recall correctly were pretty substantial...


Dr. Design:

In a phone conversation with Jesse, he did say that the “crimping” in the middle of the V’s exhaust system that he removes has an increasingly greater effect on the overall performance, as one adds more horsepower through other mods (such as crank pulleys). So possibly the horsepower advantage of the Corsa mufflers over the stock mufflers when everything else is stock – however “small” (on Jesse’s dyno tests, 4 or so hp) or “large” (on your dyno tests, 16 hp) – might also become greater as mods are added.

Also, am I correct to assume that the test you conducted that found a 16 hp improvement when replacing the stock mufflers with Corsa mufflers does not modify anything else in the exhaust (I’m thinking here of the “crimped” middle section)?

A few posts earlier in this thread, you note that in one of your header and Corsa installations that “we added a second set of high flow cats to reduce the sound per the customer.” How hard is it to install this second set of CATS, how much extra does it cost, how substantial is the noise reduction, where does the primary noise reduction occur (idle, cruise, or WOT), and how much horsepower is lost?

Kyle

Gotham CTS-V
08-10-09, 01:17 PM
Gotham CTS-V:

On another thread, you indicated that you had experienced some issues with heat soak (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176053-bad-heatsoak-help.html). Has that problem gone away? Did you install Wait4me’s larger-capacity heat exchanger?

Also, do you have Wait4me’s less restrictive 3-inch exhaust installed, and what mufflers are you using?

Kyle

I don't have his heat exchanger yet. Still need to get some funds together and I'm also waiting to see what D3 has to offer.

The exhaust system is completely stock including the mufflers.

I posted by track results in the thread titled something like "just installed 9.5 pulley" check the last page.

ARyanInSoCal
08-10-09, 08:09 PM
hello all......new to the forum. one quick question for the guru's and experimentalist alike. what is the deal and has anyone tried this from Lingenfelter (LPE)......."Port and polish supercharger snout" part of their package for the 09 V? sounds like a lot of labor and pain in the a**! any coments?