: Timing belt broke on 2006 sts with 53,000 miles!



papaisrollin
07-29-09, 08:28 PM
I leased this car brand new in 2005. Due to turn in 6 months from now. Timing belt broke and the dealer is insinuating poor upkeep. Pure bs this was my 7th caddy and NEVER missed an oil change. They claim the engine only had a quart and a half in the engine with no leaks. They suggest I produce oil change records. The dealership where the oil changes were performed is no longer in business due to the recession. I was told give him one more day while he contacts someone at cadillac. I swear so much for reliability. If they don't do right by me lexus here I come!

next2pool
07-29-09, 08:49 PM
I'm assuming your talking about a timing chain. Is it a V6 or V8? Also, was the dealer that closed a GM dealer?--if so the service should be on the computer under your VIN number.

Spencer's HIDs
07-29-09, 09:01 PM
I'm assuming your talking about a timing chain. Is it a V6 or V8? Also, was the dealer that closed a GM dealer?--if so the service should be on the computer under your VIN number.

Only warranty service will be in the computer. We dont even have information from the other GM dealers we own in the state. I didnt think there was a timing belt either....On either the v6 or v8

papaisrollin
07-29-09, 09:21 PM
Its a v6 and I'm in a screwed up situation. If they don't fix it. They're talking 7000 in repairs. I don't think so.

dkozloski
07-29-09, 10:20 PM
If the timing chain broke the valves, at least, are scrambled and possibly the heads and pistons.

next2pool
07-29-09, 10:52 PM
Low mileage long block V6 engines (fully dressed) are available for around $1550--V8's around $1700

Force-1
07-30-09, 08:11 AM
I leased this car brand new in 2005. Due to turn in 6 months from now. Timing belt broke and the dealer is insinuating poor upkeep. Pure bs this was my 7th caddy and NEVER missed an oil change. They claim the engine only had a quart and a half in the engine with no leaks. They suggest I produce oil change records. The dealership where the oil changes were performed is no longer in business due to the recession. I was told give him one more day while he contacts someone at cadillac. I swear so much for reliability. If they don't do right by me lexus here I come!

You didn't keep receipts/invoices for your oil changes? :tisk:

WillySTS
07-30-09, 11:11 AM
This is not very unusual for that engine. You really should check your oil level once a month. You really shouly keep your service records, if for no other reason, it adds to the resale value of the car and for insurance purposes if it gets totaled or stolen. I keep all of my service records and I work at the dealer.

WorkinWoodWheel.TX
07-30-09, 11:33 AM
I love my cadillac but they have horrible service compared to a lot of other luxury car dealers.

EChas3
07-30-09, 03:52 PM
I love my cadillac but they have horrible service compared to a lot of other luxury car dealers.

Like so many things, YMMV. My dealer takes good care of us. We have bought 5 used cars from him over 15 years and the service is good provided you make sure they understand the issue and expectation. Our Cadillacs have visited the shop more than others but they have a lot more features than the others.

next2pool
07-30-09, 04:41 PM
Its a v6 and I'm in a screwed up situation. If they don't fix it. They're talking 7000 in repairs. I don't think so.

I think these V6's have 3 timing chains--one primary and two secondary's so the overall damage may depend on which one broke. There were problems in 2007 but so far I haven't seen any indication that the quality problem affected 2006--could yours be a late 06? Also, did the chain actually break or did it slip. I suppose it could be attributed to low oil pressure, but I would ask some tough questions first.

SKATE50
07-30-09, 06:17 PM
I love my cadillac but they have horrible service compared to a lot of other luxury car dealers.

Sorry to hear that but my Caddy dealer treats me like a KING, like I invented sliced bread or something!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

papaisrollin
07-30-09, 10:38 PM
3 repairs under warranty. This is the 4th problem and its major. They called today with 2 offers. First offer they pay 4000 and I pay 4000 to rebuild the engine. I pay 6000 to fix it and they provide a voucher for 4000 towards the purchase of my existing car or a new one. This sucks. Not unusual for this engine. I guess I learned a valuable lesson. Keep all records and warranty ,warranty,warranty.

mbnv992
07-30-09, 10:49 PM
$4,000 ?!?!?!?!?! That's crazy !!!!
My caddy has treated me just fine in the 20,000 miles that I've had it.

next2pool
07-30-09, 11:06 PM
3 repairs under warranty. This is the 4th problem and its major. They called today with 2 offers. First offer they pay 4000 and I pay 4000 to rebuild the engine. I pay 6000 to fix it and they provide a voucher for 4000 towards the purchase of my existing car or a new one. This sucks. Not unusual for this engine. I guess I learned a valuable lesson. Keep all records and warranty ,warranty,warranty.

Well I do think it is unusual for this engine! There were some oil consumption issues which really is not that common, nor should that become your problem. Also, I don't think that low oil level will cause a timing chain failure.It's a roller chain that can endure a lot of punishment--more so than bearings and rings. Don't give in yet!!

next2pool
07-30-09, 11:31 PM
You know--the more I think about this the more pissed off I get. These cars have both a low oil pressure warning and a low oil level warning. Whether they work or not is not your problem. If indeed your crankcase level was low, you should have had a warning (why are those systems there and explained in the owners manual). Also, if indeed the engine starved for oil, many other systems would have failed long before the chain failed. I personally think you need to go on the offensive and put your dealer on the defensive. I'm sure they will give you the normal crap about checking oil level, but ask them why the vehicle has indicator lights and why as a customer you shouldn't count on them. Also, what was your oil life indicator when this happened. If it still shows a fair amount of oil life remaining, you can challenge them on excessive consumption even though you had lots of oil life left. I know that this stuff is difficult for a lot of folks, but there's a lot of money involved here. Again, as an engineer, i don't think that a timing chain failure is the first failure to ocurr due to low oil pressure. Ask them about the 2007 failures that were attributed to vendor quality and how do they know your's may be different.

z06bigbird
07-30-09, 11:56 PM
Some 2005 and 2006 3.6s have had timing chain problems. Local dealer told me that if you have a warranty, you are ok. If not warranty, big trouble. (You are on your own.) Repair is a real headache too.

Jesda
07-31-09, 06:57 AM
This is the first I've heard of a timing chain issue. Good to know.

bass_sts
07-31-09, 07:50 AM
on the 2005 v8s when does the chain need to be serviced normally?

How about the v6s?

next2pool
07-31-09, 09:33 AM
I don't think there is any service to be done on chains--they should normally last for life--whatever that may be.

papaisrollin
07-31-09, 12:01 PM
Thanks for the info next2pool. I am calling the dealer right now and will post their response.

papaisrollin
07-31-09, 12:16 PM
oh and my engine oil life was at 30% left.

AllWheelEric
07-31-09, 12:39 PM
It was a vastly different car, but when some Quickie Lube grease monkeys started my 1980 Mustang with no oil in it (in order to flush the radiator), it only took 2-3 minutes till the timing belt snapped.

next2pool
07-31-09, 12:50 PM
Probably seized the cam bearings

WillySTS
07-31-09, 12:58 PM
on the 2005 v8s when does the chain need to be serviced normally?

How about the v6s?
There is no service interval for timing chains. The tensioners and variable cam timing actuators are hydraulicly operated so it just needs the proper level of oil at all times and also is part of the reason synthetic oil is specified for these engines.

WillySTS
07-31-09, 01:00 PM
oh and my engine oil life was at 30% left.

The oil life monitor does not monitor oil level, you can be low in oil and the reading will not change because of that.

Greg00coupe
07-31-09, 01:23 PM
Don't know about this generation of STS but my 2000 used oil about a quart between changes. When it got down below 1 qt a warning came on. So I had 7 qts left and just needed to add a quart. My 05 V8 uses no oil, not sure this is good or bad. But I would expect there is a warning in the DIC when oil levels drop.

next2pool
07-31-09, 02:31 PM
The oil life monitor does not monitor oil level, you can be low in oil and the reading will not change because of that.

The reason I asked about oil life remaining was to get an idea how long it had been since his last oil change and the potential oil that may have been used since his last change.

EChas3
07-31-09, 02:31 PM
What's the real story? Did it really just up and die at 53k? If that's true, a good dealer would back you with GM. The end of the warranty period isn't a cartoon car explosion.

papaisrollin
07-31-09, 02:43 PM
This IS THE REAL STORY. No reason to lie just left the dealership. The service manager just told me he knows nothing of timing chain problems with 05 ans 06 but the 08 and 09 cars have had timing chain problems. I will be contacting cadillac,they are about to lose a long time customer This is at the morries cadillac in golden valley mn.

Regulator
07-31-09, 02:59 PM
Why all the drama over a $1500 long block? If they won't fix it under warranty, just have someone else do the swap. Should be about a $1k labor job.

OlManRivah
07-31-09, 05:49 PM
Still something not adding up here. What car company wouldn't question a broken timing chain in a car with less than 2 qts of oil in it with no leaks and no records? If they are smart they will get the oil analyzed.

ewill3rd
07-31-09, 08:52 PM
Well hopefully this won't fuel any fires but... here goes.

1. Sometimes the 3.6 has a tendency to use oil. In the owner's manual it states somewhere that you need to always monitor the oil level. The OIL LIFE INDICATOR is to notify you when to change the oil, not when to check it. If you check the oil regularly you would see that it was getting low and you could take it to the dealer and they could fix the oil consumption issue.
2. These do have a LOW OIL INDICATOR message that will display, however for some reason it will only do so with the key on and the engine off (or so I have heard). This would indicate the low oil level. I don't know why this works, or doesn't, the way it does.
3. If the oil level is low the tensioners could lose pressure and cause slack in the chains which could lead to timing and or chain problems. Yes it should be accompanied by some other issues because the oil will not be feeding other parts of the engine. Valves should clatter and other stuff.
4. There are issues on a number of years with chains. They are on backorder I think right now because of a high demand. We do a lot of them but I can't tell you on what years this issue is most common.
5. If the chains stretch and break lots of stuff gets damaged inside the engine and it can cost a lot of dough to fix depending on what method of repair you choose.
6. Whether or not this issue is covered under warranty is up to the discretion of your dealer. Don't blame the whole corporation for your Dealer's decision. Cadillac will tell you the same thing.
7. Producing maintenance records and telling them you check your oil will help in the long run.
8. Call Cadillac Customer care, don't be a jerk, just tell them what is going on and have them try to talk to your dealer about getting you taken care of to keep your business.
9. Get them to involve the area manager

If they can't make you happy then I wouldn't blame you for going to another car make, but as I said don't blame all of us for the actions of a couple of boneheads up in MN.

next2pool
07-31-09, 09:06 PM
I think that's a good summary. When I asked what the oil life remaining was, I was trying to see roughly how many miles had gone by since the last oil change. If we guess that 66% used (33% remaining)amounts to about 6000 miles and an oil burn of 1qt per 2000miles, it could have been 3 quarts down. Regardless, if you take a customer focus, 2000 miles per qt is certainly not world class, nor is the weird oil level warning customer friendly. Just like a plane crash, there are usually several things at play here, but a customer paying for a premium car deserves every benefit of the doubt.

ewill3rd
07-31-09, 09:11 PM
GM considers 1 quart per 2,000 miles to be "normal".
Engines do inherantly use oil because of design limitations, some more, some less.
When we do a consumption test we are looking for usage in that amount. If it is more than 1 quart in that distance then we go looking for the problem.

papaisrollin
07-31-09, 09:30 PM
No fires but if I'm paying 645 a month best believe I'm changing the oil I know what I gotta do thanks for your input

next2pool
07-31-09, 09:49 PM
GM considers 1 quart per 2,000 miles to be "normal".
Engines do inherantly use oil because of design limitations, some more, some less.
When we do a consumption test we are looking for usage in that amount. If it is more than 1 quart in that distance then we go looking for the problem.

Well I know what we have to say in a service environment, but let's face it, that simply is not acceptable. Most cars easily go 5000 miles or more without burning any oil. The 3.6 is a great engine, but it is not ultra high performance nor stressed in this application. GM is still saying that the engine knock in 4.8/5.3/6.0 L truck engines is normal--hence a class action suit and millions down the drain and aliented customers. BTW, I'm not arguing with you, but with my own company.

ewill3rd
08-01-09, 08:40 AM
I know my 4.2 in my Trailblazer doesn't use hardly any oil. I think I have 4,000 miles on the last oil change with Valvoline Max Life and It probably isn't down half a quart.
I haven't done any studies to indicate real world facts.
All engines will use oil, they have to.
If nothing else I recommend all of you start checking it at least once a month, if for no other reason than just to be SURE that it isn't using oil at an excessive rate.
If it is.... then take it in and get it looked at.

EChas3
08-01-09, 06:36 PM
Self-serve gas stations! He probably fills up once a week and never looks at his dipstick. It's basic car maintenance. I generally check it before any trip more than 200 miles. That works for me.

Maybe the dealer would drop in the engine you buy?

Good Luck!

OlManRivah
08-01-09, 08:22 PM
My daughter had a Toyota that she neglected to change the oil and it blew. Toyota wouldn't honor the warranty. She learned a hard lesson. :bigroll:

ewill3rd
08-02-09, 10:54 AM
Wait... wait... wait...

Are you trying to tell me a Toyota broke???
How dare you spread lies like that!!!

Oh wait, it was a maintenance issue... okay that's better... :lol:

Greg00coupe
08-04-09, 12:30 PM
Interesting........... my 2000 STS told me in the DIC when it was low 1 qt. with the engine running. Now we have the latest generation NStar (in my case) and they did away with this? I mean I don't need voice recogoniton or an inferior navagation system........ I need basics. My goodness cars 30 years ago had either an oil gauge or idiot light that warned of low oil pressure.

cadillacroadside
08-04-09, 03:34 PM
there is ALOT of misinformation on this thread, first off if you are low on oil, you will have timing chain issues. if you are low on oil...there is a reason. this engine

amgqmp1
08-04-09, 07:07 PM
Interesting........... my 2000 STS told me in the DIC when it was low 1 qt. with the engine running. Now we have the latest generation NStar (in my case) and they did away with this?

I have the same question...do the N* models display a low oil warning on the DIC?

EChas3
08-05-09, 12:21 PM
I have the same question...do the N* models display a low oil warning on the DIC?

I am told they do. A fill is 8 quarts and I think I read in a thread around here that it has to be 3 quarts low before the DIC displays a warning. However, in the manual I find only "Oil Pressure Low Stop Engine" accompanied by a multiple chime. (From the 2008 manual which is all I have at work.)

Spyke
08-05-09, 04:52 PM
to check if you have a low oil message, on your next oil change (for DIY guys), flush the old, put the plugs back, and just put the key at the on position without starting the engine. You'll see! If it works, add like half quart, and repeat. Until the lights dont display anymore.

ewill3rd
08-05-09, 05:02 PM
For some reason the 3.6 will only display this message, key on engine off.
At least that is what I have heard.

Check the dipstick regularly, period.

papaisrollin
08-06-09, 12:24 AM
No key in my ignition -pushbutton start.

ewill3rd
08-06-09, 06:49 AM
Press the ignition switch down to the off/aux position and hold it for about 5-8 seconds.
This will put the car in run mode and it should do the same.

Sorry... forgot this was an STS thread.
That makes the liklihood of seeing that light even less.

z06bigbird
02-03-10, 11:20 PM
GM is aware of a certain number of timing chain failures (??2005, 2006??). Some too in more recent years. Call some gray haired service mgrs in some cities about 500 miles away. See if they can point you in right direction--re the approach to take with GM. Lost oil change receipts will not help unless engine (inside) is very clean, which it should be if you changed oil every 3,000 miles.

malatu
02-04-10, 03:12 PM
I had a Pontiac Bonneville with 212,000. I could go 5000 miles between oil changes and never have to put oil in it. In 5000 miles, it didn't burn 1/2 a quart of oil. Go figure.

AllGoNShow
02-04-10, 04:33 PM
I think I will be changing mine in preventative measures just in case, I drive this thing way to hard to have it snap on me one day.

Just so you guys know, book time on this job is WELL over 10 hours, if you are doing the main and both secondardy chains with new tensioners, you are looking at over 13/14 hours book time, not cheap, but better than a new motor.

carter's_sts
02-05-10, 12:34 AM
Is that really needed if you're not having a problem? What if you screw something up and create a problem?

AllGoNShow
02-05-10, 10:46 AM
Well I am having wierd valvetrain noises which sound like the chains rattling (tensioner loose/worn out), some brown guys owned this car before I did and I have no idea what they did to it as I got it a mess, plus I drive my cars VERY hard all the time.

This is my job ;) If I screw something up and create a problem I better resconsider my career haha. That won't be the issue here.

carter's_sts
02-05-10, 01:57 PM
I wonder what percentage of these engines have a timing chain issue. I only drive hard sometimes, usually when I need to put some punk with a tiny Mazda with modified exhaust in his place. Just have to size up the other car first, only having the 3.6, but it is faster than a lot of cars out there.

Amazingly mine uses no (I'm sure very little actually) oil - knock on wood quick.

AllGoNShow
02-05-10, 02:40 PM
I actually use quite a decent amount of oil per change, I will be looking into it further but dont know if I will repair, I just continue to top it up, if the ****er blows up then I will buy another 3.6 and build it up on the side. If it is an easy fix for the oil usage I will do it, but i have a feeling it may be rings and I will just forget about it.

trackbait
02-06-10, 01:50 PM
Here is a pic of an oil level sensor - one on the right is broken and taken apart to see how it works. It is not out of a Caddy but more generic as all cars shold have one like or similar. Basically, two contacts that have very low voltage / resistance probes to either open the circuit or to close the circuit. When closed (covered in oil) - no light or DIC message. Open and it triggers low oil level.

When low oil level is triggered, it does so while engine is off BUT, it will still show on the DIC when the ignition is cycled from off/start/run. In a C5 Vette, this message would remain on until the user pushed the Reset button. On others I've seen the light/message would stay on until the problem was corrected. i.e - oil level must be high enough to close the circuit on the switch.

I think it is total BS that GM/Caddy will not step up to the plate on this one. To say using a quart every 2000 miles is complete crap! The burden of proof that you didn't check dipstick and or present oil change receipts is not your problem. It is for them to prove that you didn't maintain it...not for you to prove you did.

Unfortunately, the amount of money to fix/replace is greater than would be handled in most small claims court, but I'd be talking to an attorney for sure.

http://www.c5dreamer.com/newsensor1.jpg

next2pool
02-06-10, 02:17 PM
Luckily my 06 3.6 dosen't burn a drop of oil with 34K on it. I suspect the ones that burn oil did so from day one--did they? It doesn't seem this would be a wear issue but rather a cylinder finish or ring issue. I would think at some point excessive oil burn could affect the cats. I know they've taken most but not all of the ZDDP out of oil, but still......

AllGoNShow
02-08-10, 01:04 PM
I've only owned mine since 76xxx km, now has 130xxx km. Not sure what oil previous owner used or anything, I have only used Mobil 1 5w30 syn but might have to make a change. At approx 50% oil change life left (haven't bothered to figure out KM) I use .75 quart of oil.

EChas3
02-09-10, 08:43 PM
My N* has 55,000 miles and the last oil change was 8 quarts of Mobile 1 in April 2009, about 10,000 miles ago. The oil life indicator is at 20% and the dipstick reading has only moved from just above Full to just below. If it reaches halfway before the next change, I'll add a pint.

My wife's 2007 with 15,000 fewer miles uses a pint every 5,000. On average, we go almost a year & 12,000 miles by going with the oil life monitor.

The 3.6 is a good motor. If you have timing chain woes, a good dealer should nack you with the GM zone rep. Am I dreaming?

AllGoNShow
02-10-10, 02:51 PM
Out side of warranty + retarded dealers + retarded managers @ dealers = No dealer work for me.

Inside of warranty I had a few things replaced, awesome, service from service advisor was great! Lot boy decided to drive my car into a hoist or curb, manager denied everything to the bone, told them all to get bent and left, will take care of everything myself from now on and won't be back for another car that I was looking at buying from them for the GF.

Boston.CTS,06
12-09-10, 10:26 PM
I bought my 2006 11 months ago with 53k..now has 63k and been at the caddy dealer for he past 3 weeks,the timing chain,there is a part on back order and they have no idea how long it will be,,,they also checked the heads and made sure there was no damage there(thank GOD),they have given me a loaner car on them of course .and the total is going to be $1000.00 for all the repairs,the first estimate was $2400 but the service manager was off so when he came back he said they would so it for the grand..

EChas3
12-11-10, 12:05 AM
Ouch!

turnne
12-13-10, 05:49 PM
what year did they expand the powertrain warranty on these past 50K miles?


Warren

EChas3
12-13-10, 08:35 PM
In 2008 the dealership was plastered with posters proclaiming extended driveline coverage and loaners for all service through 100,000 miles. The salesman claimed it was retroactive to the used cars we bought. I have my doubts. We took out warranties, anyway. They later lost their Cadillac certification but still do my wife's warranty work.

bbshriver
12-14-10, 10:48 AM
Well I know what we have to say in a service environment, but let's face it, that simply is not acceptable. Most cars easily go 5000 miles or more without burning any oil. The 3.6 is a great engine, but it is not ultra high performance nor stressed in this application. GM is still saying that the engine knock in 4.8/5.3/6.0 L truck engines is normal--hence a class action suit and millions down the drain and aliented customers. BTW, I'm not arguing with you, but with my own company.

Sad.
My 2005 N* with about 65k has never needed any oil between changes...
Moreso my 1996 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 with over 150k has never needed oil between changes.

Sad that a new Cadillac needs this kind of maintenance, though my brother's Infiniti FX45 goes through something like a qt every 1k.

bbjorklund99
04-15-11, 03:15 PM
I have never been concerned about a car that used a small amount of oil. It I was adding a quart every 1,000 miles I would be concerned but just about every car I have ever owned would be down slightly to a quart at the time of the next oil change. This was of course when you changed your oil every 2,500-3,500 miles. I have a GMC Yukon XL with the 5.3L V8 and I am running the Valvoline High Mileage Synthetic blend 5-30w since it turned 75,000. I change it every 3,000 -3,500 miles and usually am at the add mark by the time I get to the change interval. The engine has 128,000 and still runs like it is new. I bought it when it was 3 years old and had 34,000 on it. It has always had a little rattle in the lifters when I start it in the morning. To date it has stayed the same and has not developed into a major problem yet. I know guys that have 250,000 + miles on their trucks and have told me that they have always had the rattle at start-up as well. It does have a warning message that appears when it gets to a quart low.

Several of you have posted that you occasionally check the oil to make sure it is not low. Oil is cheap compared to an overhaul. I usually get an extra quart or two and keep on hand. If it gets down a 1/2 a quart I top it off. It may be a pain but it beats shelling out big bucks for engine repairs.

That is my 2 cents worth.

z06bigbird
04-16-11, 12:13 PM
How much would a GM crate engine cost?? Or one from a junk yard--with low miles.

Show them all the documentation on 07 model 3.6s. Many failures. Local Caddy mechanic moonlights in San Antonio. He charges $500 plus parts. I believe that the 3.6 is a non-interference engine, and the other engine components should be ok.

AllGoNShow
04-18-11, 03:25 PM
I found a used 05 3.6 for $1500 on eBay, with matching ECU and harness as well. I would love to get this work done if it solves the oil consumption issue, just no time or patience for the dealerships crap.