: 2006 STS is it French?



jerseyvette
07-22-04, 09:46 PM
Imagine with me for a minute. Let's pretend that you are in France and I showed you this red Citroen. Now cose your eyes again and see this STS-V prototype. If I were to take the caddy badge off thsi car and tell you it was a 2006 Citroen wouldn't you believe me? l mean I really think Caddy is designing cars to atract a compact Euro Car type of buyer..

miscreant
07-22-04, 10:00 PM
Imagine with me for a minute. Let's pretend that you are in France and I showed you this red Citroen. Now cose your eyes again and see this STS-V prototype. If I were to take the caddy badge off thsi car and tell you it was a 2006 Citroen wouldn't you believe me? l mean I really think Caddy is designing cars to atract a compact Euro Car type of buyer..
You are looking for every way possible to hate the STS. Under your name it says "Cadillac Fan", though you don't act like one. You say "The STS is smaller than XXXX car" then some posts actual dimensions that shows it longer, taller, and wider, and you make no comment, only to simply CONTINUE to go on saying it's smaller. You post pictures of an S500 with the seats all the way foward and then pictures of a DTS and STS with seats all the way back, and claim "look, the S500 is roomier".

You post pricing of the STS based on the top of the line models. The V6 starts just over $40k and the V8 starts at a little over $47k. The $55K+ cars are the ones with ALL the bells like adaptive cruise, nav, 5.1 surround sound. Your comparisons are off, you claim its smaller when it's not, and you compare it to a CTS when it's very different (other than the steering wheel center design, they look completely different inside!).

But I digress, judging by previous posts, you'll simply find some other reason to rag on the STS and other Cadillacs...

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 10:37 PM
You are looking for every way possible to hate the STS. Under your name it says "Cadillac Fan", though you don't act like one. You say "The STS is smaller than XXXX car" then some posts actual dimensions that shows it longer, taller, and wider, and you make no comment, only to simply CONTINUE to go on saying it's smaller. You post pictures of an S500 with the seats all the way foward and then pictures of a DTS and STS with seats all the way back, and claim "look, the S500 is roomier".

You post pricing of the STS based on the top of the line models. The V6 starts just over $40k and the V8 starts at a little over $47k. The $55K+ cars are the ones with ALL the bells like adaptive cruise, nav, 5.1 surround sound. Your comparisons are off, you claim its smaller when it's not, and you compare it to a CTS when it's very different (other than the steering wheel center design, they look completely different inside!).

But I digress, judging by previous posts, you'll simply find some other reason to rag on the STS and other Cadillacs...
I LOVE GM and that is all I drive. I believe in giving positive reinforcement where appropriate and negative reinforcement as well. Teh CTS was overall a great design for thesegment (which I have echoed over and over and over again). The STS is really a car that I anticipated (when I saw early drawings) to be much more impressive looking (i.e. have design que's from the Cadillac 16 in some ways.

I am very proud of GM especially in quality achievements. Now the interior space issue is the crown they need to win back to again become the standard of the world. We don't need yes men at GM but people that will disrupt the flow when things take a turn for the worse (like we are seeing in the cramped inter :halo: iors as of late)..

gothicaleigh
07-22-04, 10:52 PM
Do we need to speak slower?

It. Has. A. Larger. Interior. Than. The. Cars. You. Compared. It. To.

This has been detailed out many times now.
Do you even read anything anyone else posts?

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 10:58 PM
Like a magical machine keeps shrinking the car...see through the years..

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:09 PM
Like a magical machine keeps shrinking the car...see through the years..

Ohh STS.

Through The Years

We Really Shrunk You Down

We Shaved Your Nose off Round

I know am glad I have the smallest luxury car in town.
____________________
I can't remember when I had some room

When I could fit more food, or clothes or people too.

I remember when cars were made for small and tall.
Together we'd fit all oh STS I'll always remember all the good years.

Verse Two:

STS Now you're small. You fit no one at all.

Remember when we all.
Respected those who designed the cars of.... yesteryear.

Those years are gone...through the years..(sigh sigh..wimper wimper)

Bairritz, Deville and Allante tooo...

Even if you were two

you still remember style, and form and grace.(daddy, mommy and even uncle Jimmy carrying a cold case) could fit in the back seeeeat...do do dee dee dee..

that's all gone, GM things were all wrong...

thinking that our legs are long, or people actually are biiger than five foot two.

By Jersey Vette (Original Kenny Rogers Cover Song) :rant2:

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:10 PM
Ohh Through the years

gothicaleigh
07-22-04, 11:12 PM
2004 SeVille
Leg room(front).....................42.5
Leg Room(front).....................38.2
Head Room(front)...................38.2
Head Room(rear)....................38.0
Shoulder Room(front)..............59.1
Shoulder Room(rear)...............58.0

2005 STS
Leg Room(front)...................42.6
Leg Room (rear)...................38.3
Head Room(front).................38.7
Head Room(rear)..................37.9
Shoulder Room(front)............58.6
Shoulder Room(rear)..............57.4

Oh sh!t! We lost a whole tenth of an inch in rear headroom! A half inch in shoulder width! That means the seats are a quarter inch tighter than last year. OMFG, the world is coming to an end. Those damn penny pinchers at GM! Grr.
:rolleyes:
Nevermind that everywhere else the car is actually larger...

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:15 PM
2004 SeVille
Leg room(front).....................42.5
Leg Room(front).....................38.2
Head Room(front)...................38.2
Head Room(rear)....................38.0
Shoulder Room(front)..............59.1
Shoulder Room(rear)...............58.0

2005 STS
Leg Room(front)...................42.6
Leg Room (rear)...................38.3
Head Room(front).................38.7
Head Room(rear)..................37.9
Shoulder Room(front)............58.6
Shoulder Room(rear)..............57.4

Oh sh!t! We lost a whole tenth of an inch in rear headroom! A half inch in shoulder width! That means the seats are a quarter inch tighter than last year. OMFG, the world is coming to an end. Those damn penny pinchers at GM! Grr.
:rolleyes:
Nevermind that everywhere else the car is actually larger...

You just proved all of my points in one sentence. Trimming space on the bumper or on teh hood is one thing but when that extra half inch makes or breaks the whole experience it is all over. Maybe Lincoln will come out witha real car with room. I'll pray and wait :yawn:

gothicaleigh
07-22-04, 11:23 PM
It's a tenth of an inch in rear headroom for f*cksake. You gain that exact tenth back in legroom. If that makes the difference to you, take the pole out of your a$$ and slouch a bit, k?
Better yet, sit in front. It's a tenth better in leg room and a full half inch more in headroom. Pull out the stats for your beloved foreign cars you keep saying it's smaller than. You'll be surprised.

Devil_concours
07-22-04, 11:33 PM
someone should just ban this troll

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:37 PM
It's a tenth of an inch in rear headroom for f*cksake. You gain that exact tenth back in legroom. If that makes the difference to you, take the pole out of your a$$ and slouch a bit, k?
Better yet, sit in front. It's a tenth better in leg room and a full half inch more in headroom. Pull out the stats for your beloved foreign cars you keep saying it's smaller than. You'll be surprised.

I really do not like anything about foreign cars (generally speaking). USA actually showed Germany and the rest of europe (IMO) what rear spacious comfort was in the early Cadillac days. Where the heck has all that good gone that was in GM mindset in respect to roominess. There are several very large cars that handle very well (S55 AMG for example). Why does trimming and tucking have to be the path caddy is taking? Can't you agree with me on this at all? The experience of Cadillac's touring and roomy heritage can not be stripped away. Like William Wallace said in Braveheart "they can take away our lives but they will never take our freedom". When crammed in the back of a 1998 or newer STS (which is unavoidable for me at times) I always say to myself " I would do anything for a few more inches of head room and leg room." I man you can't even fit your feet under the rear seat without discomfort. What happened to designing functional and aerodynamic cars. My opinion is that once GM started chasing Asia as a target market they turned their back on us lanky westerner's by trimming all the good out of STS's size. I am still scratching my head wondering why companies as crappy as VW can design the "ideal cabin" in cars like Bentley Continental GT. I mean a W12 engine with leg room out the wazoo (without the extra bulkiness that everyone tries to throuw out there). I am the lonely voice who represents what millions really want to tell Gm but never say it. Maybe GM will someday remember where they came from. :bling:

Devil_concours
07-22-04, 11:41 PM
I really do not like anything about foreign cars (generally speaking). USA actually showed Germany and the rest of europe (IMO) what rear spacious comfort was in the early Cadillac days. Where the heck has all that good gone that was in GM mindset in respect to roominess. There are several very large cars that handle very well (S55 AMG for example). Why does trimming and tucking have to be the path caddy is taking? Can't you agree with me on this at all? The experience of Cadillac's touring and roomy heritage can not be stripped away. Like William Wallace said in Braveheart "they can take away our lives but they will never take our freedom". When crammed in the back of a 1998 or newer STS (which is unavoidable for me at times) I always say to myself " I would do anything for a few more inches of head room and leg room." I man you can't even fit your feet under the rear seat without discomfort. What happened to designing functional and aerodynamic cars. My opinion is that once GM started chasing Asia as a target market they turned their back on us lanky westerner's by trimming all the good out of STS's size. I am still scratching my head wondering why companies as crappy as VW can design the "ideal cabin" in cars like Bentley Continental GT. I mean a W12 engine with leg room out the wazoo (without the extra bulkiness that everyone tries to throuw out there). I am the lonely voice who represents what millions really want to tell Gm but never say it. Maybe GM will someday remember where they came from. :bling:
in every single f'ing thread you made regarding size how european sedan has more room, we proved to you that you are absolutely wrong. Stop trolling and leave the f'ing forum

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:42 PM
someone should just ban this troll
Which troll? The designer of the 2005 STS? :welcome:

Chuck C
07-22-04, 11:43 PM
jerseyvette, what's goin on? ( :drinker) Cadillac's positioning stategy is to provide world class handling, refinement, and design; 'roominess' takes the backseat in the strategy (no pun intended :))...for back seat roomminess, take a look at this thread:

Ford 500 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17076)

gothica...I feel you frustrations but it's not worth getting heated up about. :canttalk:

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:46 PM
in every single f'ing thread you made regarding size how european sedan has more room, we proved to you that you are absolutely wrong. Stop trolling and leave the f'ing forum

This is for all caddy fans which I am one of. You are just mad because I speak the truth. Maybe you are not a Kenny Rogers fan, if I offended you I'll write a more modern tune next time. I've always been good to you with your threads I'd expect soem professionalism and recriprocation. :worship: :canttalk:

Devil_concours
07-22-04, 11:47 PM
This is for all caddy fans which I am one of. You are just mad because I speak the truth. Maybe you are not a Kenny Rogers fan, if I offended you I'll write a more modern tune next time. I've always been good to you with your threads I'd expect soem professionalism and recriprocation. :worship: :canttalk:
then stop posting samething over and over again even when we proved you wrong many times with real facts to back it up

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:51 PM
jerseyvette, what's goin on? ( :drinker) Cadillac's positioning stategy is to provide world class handling, refinement, and design; 'roominess' takes the backseat in the strategy (no pun intended :))...for back seat roomminess, take a look at this thread:

Ford 500 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17076)

gothica...I feel you frustrations but it's not worth getting heated up about. :canttalk:

So Cadillac is taking the Mini Cooper route? Are you seriuos that roominess is a back seat? AM I still in America? I must be last of the real mohicans? Those who share my feelings need to speak up. AMEN!

Chuck C
07-22-04, 11:56 PM
Yes, rear seat room is a low priority right now with the tradeoffs being refinement and style. Show me who wrote the rule that says Cadillacs have to have a big back seat to be called a Cadillac. And why are you making comparisons/allusions to compact cars? It's not that bad, man.

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 11:58 PM
jerseyvette, what's goin on? ( :drinker) Cadillac's positioning stategy is to provide world class handling, refinement, and design; 'roominess' takes the backseat in the strategy (no pun intended :))...for back seat roomminess, take a look at this thread:

Ford 500 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17076)

gothica...I feel you frustrations but it's not worth getting heated up about. :canttalk:
I looked at your post and it is great (re: Ford 500). Want to hear an interesting fact. Ford has a higher research and development annual budget than GM. If we all keep beating up on GM for poor designs they may wake up. WSJ posted that revenue is dropping at GM (the inverse is happening at Daimler and Ford). GM still a goliath and have deep pockets. Things happen in cycles, companies eventually wake up and respond to feedback and their is a turnaround.

That 500 is what I was referring to: Slightly larger outside and much bigger and more functional inside. I guess Ford is proud to make American sized cars. Good post!

jerseyvette
07-23-04, 12:03 AM
Yes, rear seat room is a low priority right now with the tradeoffs being refinement and style. Show me who wrote the rule that says Cadillacs have to have a big back seat to be called a Cadillac. And why are you making comparisons/allusions to compact cars? It's not that bad, man.

Both should be expected froma great company like GM is where I am driving at with space and performance. I am speculating here but Cadillac's are probably a nice sized profit center for GM. If Deville goes the STS route in the sizing trend we may be left without a premium sized sedan with a caddy badge.

I guess living in memories of the good ole roomy and fast caddy days may be over...

miscreant
07-23-04, 01:57 AM
Both should be expected froma great company like GM is where I am driving at with space and performance. I am speculating here but Cadillac's are probably a nice sized profit center for GM. If Deville goes the STS route in the sizing trend we may be left without a premium sized sedan with a caddy badge.

I guess living in memories of the good ole roomy and fast caddy days may be over...

[closes eyes]

When I read your posts, OVER AND OVER saying the same thing, it reminds me of the other day. I was sitting on the couch and my 5 year old son kept kicking the kitchen table...after about 20 seconds I told him to stop...he kept kicking it...I told him louder...he kept kicking it...I finally yelled...he kept kicking it...I gave my final warning...he stopped...then started again, kicking it...over and over, on an on...If you're not a troll, you're the next closest thing... :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed:

Oh, yeah, in case anyone hasn't mentioned it, THE STS IS NOT THE BE-ALL END-ALL FLAGSHIP SUPER-ROOMY SUPER-LUXO sedan you think it's supposed to be!!! Basically, the STS has filled a nitch that cadillac never had. The old STS was basically a "slimmed" Deville, but it was *almost* the same size. The STS now fights the *middle* road between the CTS and the coming DTS. Were you also aware a BIG BOAT was planned for 2007-2008, a rear-drive boat like the 16 (but probably not a 16banger). Most STSs will run from $41k to $52K, with the Super sedans being in the high 50s, low 60s (low 60's get's you all the goodies). I think you were thinking that Cadillac was trying to just jump in with both feet, and I think you are gravely mistaken. I don't believe Cadillac thought or planned for the STS to just TAKE OVER the market segment. I think what they want to do, at least with this first major push (like they did with the CTS) is DRAW some of the segment, while still satisfying some of the loyal Cadillac buyers who wouldn't take a gander at the STS if it was too euro-luxo...You think Cadillac missed the boat, because you are thinking the STS was to be something it wasn't ever intended to be...

The DTS is supposed to be 4" longer than the current DTS, with an even longer wheelbase extention, as well as forward and aft adjusting and reclining rear seats. I think the DTS is what you were expecting the STS to be, but unfortunately, the MAIN market segment right that is so popular right now are the smaller cars. Todays Cadillac buyers, according to demographics, tend to own SUVs as second cars. The two MOST popular Cadillacs right now are the CTS and Escalade. The Deville and Seville can't be GIVEN away right now. We trade about 20% Devilles for CTSs these days. Not to say some people don't feel exactly as you do, but most don't.

Slick V
07-23-04, 08:10 AM
Finally i think you guys shut him up. Facts are facts and what you think of car is just an opinion.

Caddy Man
07-23-04, 11:09 AM
[closes eyes]

When I read your posts, OVER AND OVER saying the same thing, it reminds me of the other day. I was sitting on the couch and my 5 year old son kept kicking the kitchen table...after about 20 seconds I told him to stop...he kept kicking it...I told him louder...he kept kicking it...I finally yelled...he kept kicking it...I gave my final warning...he stopped...then started again, kicking it...over and over, on an on...If you're not a troll, you're the next closest thing... :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed:

Oh, yeah, in case anyone hasn't mentioned it, THE STS IS NOT THE BE-ALL END-ALL FLAGSHIP SUPER-ROOMY SUPER-LUXO sedan you think it's supposed to be!!! Basically, the STS has filled a nitch that cadillac never had. The old STS was basically a "slimmed" Deville, but it was *almost* the same size. The STS now fights the *middle* road between the CTS and the coming DTS. Were you also aware a BIG BOAT was planned for 2007-2008, a rear-drive boat like the 16 (but probably not a 16banger). Most STSs will run from $41k to $52K, with the Super sedans being in the high 50s, low 60s (low 60's get's you all the goodies). I think you were thinking that Cadillac was trying to just jump in with both feet, and I think you are gravely mistaken. I don't believe Cadillac thought or planned for the STS to just TAKE OVER the market segment. I think what they want to do, at least with this first major push (like they did with the CTS) is DRAW some of the segment, while still satisfying some of the loyal Cadillac buyers who wouldn't take a gander at the STS if it was too euro-luxo...You think Cadillac missed the boat, because you are thinking the STS was to be something it wasn't ever intended to be...

The DTS is supposed to be 4" longer than the current DTS, with an even longer wheelbase extention, as well as forward and aft adjusting and reclining rear seats. I think the DTS is what you were expecting the STS to be, but unfortunately, the MAIN market segment right that is so popular right now are the smaller cars. Todays Cadillac buyers, according to demographics, tend to own SUVs as second cars. The two MOST popular Cadillacs right now are the CTS and Escalade. The Deville and Seville can't be GIVEN away right now. We trade about 20% Devilles for CTSs these days. Not to say some people don't feel exactly as you do, but most don't.
exactly, no one sits there and bitches about the E class ofr 5 series being cramped, because you have the 7 and the S class...THE STS IS NOT IN THE SAME CLASS AS THE 7 OR THE S. :rolleyes2 jerseyvette keeps acting as if the STS is suppoed to be the big sedan coming out of cadillac, NO...that would be the DTS and belive me, when i had my DTS, i never got one complaint about the back, instead compliments on how roomy it was. Much more roomier than my previous 1991 Lincoln Town Car. And whats up with comparing it to some peice of shit citroen? what just cuz it has 4 wheels??? :drinker come on man, gimme a break.

megeebee
07-23-04, 12:04 PM
Writing as one who has felt the sting on a Jerseyvette reply (see thread "Price Styling Laacking.." (SIC), posts 81-82-83) I say thank you to Miscreant for his/her measured tone. To comment on the top of this thread, namely the the two photos posted, the only things I see in common are a roof, 4 doors, and 4 tires !
If you want rear legroom then get a DTS.

jerseyvette
07-23-04, 02:02 PM
Writing as one who has felt the sting on a Jerseyvette reply (see thread "Price Styling Laacking.." (SIC), posts 81-82-83) I say thank you to Miscreant for his/her measured tone. To comment on the top of this thread, namely the the two photos posted, the only things I see in common are a roof, 4 doors, and 4 tires !
If you want rear legroom then get a DTS.

There is aconcept in psychology called "group think." Essentially it is when people get together and start believing the same the same BS that they keep telling each other (that is a sub reality based on non truths). This happened in Nazi germany when good kids became killers and in examples like JFK and thebay of pigs invasion (when we almost ewent to nuclear war) because advisors to the president were yes men and group thinkers".

After posting here for a while and hearing your thoughts I have come to a few conclusions.
1) Those who think teh Deville is super roomy and at par with germany's large cars must have come from smaller cars in their driving history because the car is really not very big inside (regardless of what teh GM dealsers that support this site are trying to sell us on)

2) We all want to feel like "the style of the car we drive" was worth the investment. In case of CTS everyone hopes that the STS will make the car mnore exclusive, valuable and fancy. I did not mean to knock anyones hopes or esteem with my comments that own a CTS. I say it again and again that teh car is excellent in every category for the segment it is positioned in. The 2005 STS is where I feel the mistakes were made in the overall product. Again, we are in Amercia and have freedom of speech.

3) I still feel that since STS continues to shrink (not on an "inch here, 1/3 inch there level" but on a level to what other cars it is compared with like Acuras, 525i's etc) it is taking the brand and name STS into a smaller car category which can be SERIOUSLY damaging to what people think of when they see the badge. If GM was looking to comete in highly compact performance segments it moght have been a good idea to keep Cadillac as teh "luxury touring" brand and come out witha different brand for cars like STS and the V Series etc. When the RWD limousene type touring cars deceased at Cadillac it was a sign to us all that a segment was potentially dead for the American brand. Lincoln embraced this segment and are reaping the rewards for the livery and luxury sedan segment. Dollars to Dollars I feel that throwing away "people carrying RWD" cars was a very big mistake for the company because isf a Cadillac 16 comes back it is again in a hole to gain mindshare of customers for that segment. It would be like Mc Donalds choosing to stop selling hambergers for 10 years then deciding to come out with another one. This would lead to a reinventing marketing plan. The analogy holds true for teh space Lincoln has right now with Towncar, THE DEVILLE DOES NOT COMPETE HERE SEE THE SALE STATS AND LOOK ON THE ROADS .

4) I learned long ago that people's compensation plan dictates their behavior. Many "Supporting Members" here feel it is apropriate to call me a "troll" because I am in between buyers and their bank accounts. What I mean here is that why would you bash a 2005 STS critic unless you were looking to gain from the sale of the 2005 STS cars. A Caddy dealer would be the first person to shoot down criticism (think about it). I'm commenting for teh well being of teh Americans that buy the cars, shareholders and people that make money building cars that are positioned well. When a car is made cramped it is bad for America, Workers and Families that are stuck in that tiny back seat.

Bring it on!

jerseyvette
07-23-04, 02:04 PM
Finally i think you guys shut him up. Facts are facts and what you think of car is just an opinion.

I'll stop by and see you when I am in FL. Which number is your trailer?

Chuck C
07-23-04, 02:20 PM
:bighead:

megeebee
07-23-04, 02:22 PM
There is aconcept in psychology called "group think." Essentially it is when people get together and start believing the same the same BS that they keep telling each other (that is a sub reality based on non truths). This happened in Nazi germany when good kids became killers and in examples like JFK and thebay of pigs invasion (when we almost ewent to nuclear war) because advisors to the president were yes men and group thinkers".

After posting here for a while and hearing your thoughts I have come to a few conclusions.
1) Those who think teh Deville is super roomy and at par with germany's large cars must have come from smaller cars in their driving history because the car is really not very big inside (regardless of what teh GM dealsers that support this site are trying to sell us on)

2) We all want to feel like "the style of the car we drive" was worth the investment. In case of CTS everyone hopes that the STS will make the car mnore exclusive, valuable and fancy. I did not mean to knock anyones hopes or esteem with my comments that own a CTS. I say it again and again that teh car is excellent in every category for the segment it is positioned in. The 2005 STS is where I feel the mistakes were made in the overall product. Again, we are in Amercia and have freedom of speech.

3) I still feel that since STS continues to shrink (not on an "inch here, 1/3 inch there level" but on a level to what other cars it is compared with like Acuras, 525i's etc) it is taking the brand and name STS into a smaller car category which can be SERIOUSLY damaging to what people think of when they see the badge. If GM was looking to comete in highly compact performance segments it moght have been a good idea to keep Cadillac as teh "luxury touring" brand and come out witha different brand for cars like STS and the V Series etc. When the RWD limousene type touring cars deceased at Cadillac it was a sign to us all that a segment was potentially dead for the American brand. Lincoln embraced this segment and are reaping the rewards for the livery and luxury sedan segment. Dollars to Dollars I feel that throwing away "people carrying RWD" cars was a very big mistake for the company because isf a Cadillac 16 comes back it is again in a hole to gain mindshare of customers for that segment. It would be like Mc Donalds choosing to stop selling hambergers for 10 years then deciding to come out with another one. This would lead to a reinventing marketing plan. The analogy holds true for teh space Lincoln has right now with Towncar, THE DEVILLE DOES NOT COMPETE HERE SEE THE SALE STATS AND LOOK ON THE ROADS .

4) I learned long ago that people's compensation plan dictates their behavior. Many "Supporting Members" here feel it is apropriate to call me a "troll" because I am in between buyers and their bank accounts. What I mean here is that why would you bash a 2005 STS critic unless you were looking to gain from the sale of the 2005 STS cars. A Caddy dealer would be the first person to shoot down criticism (think about it). I'm commenting for teh well being of teh Americans that buy the cars, shareholders and people that make money building cars that are positioned well. When a car is made cramped it is bad for America, Workers and Families that are stuck in that tiny back seat.

Bring it on!


...you flatter yourself.

STS 310
07-23-04, 02:36 PM
I'll stop by and see you when I am in FL. Which number is your trailer?

LOL!!!!

jerseyvette
07-23-04, 02:59 PM
LOL!!!!I'm coming to see you too in LA! Kidding! :bouncy: Glad at least someone has a sense of humor here!

Slick V
07-23-04, 03:20 PM
I'll stop by and see you when I am in FL. Which number is your trailer?

Tell me when your coming, ill give you somewhere to meet.

jerseyvette
07-23-04, 03:58 PM
Tell me when your coming, ill give you somewhere to meet.

You started all this with the "moron" and "shut me up" comments. Just be mature and professional and I'll stop the sarcasm. I was always good to you before you started pushing my yankee buttons..

We have a deal?

Let's find things in common about us like we both want what is best for Cadillac and America..agree?

miscreant
07-23-04, 04:38 PM
There is aconcept in psychology called "group think." Essentially it is when people get together and start believing the same the same BS that they keep telling each other (that is a sub reality based on non truths). This happened in Nazi germany when good kids became killers and in examples like JFK and thebay of pigs invasion (when we almost ewent to nuclear war) because advisors to the president were yes men and group thinkers".

...closemindedness...dillusional...Those are Psychology terms too.


Those who think teh Deville is super roomy and at par with germany's large cars must have come from smaller cars in their driving history because the car is really not very big inside

No, the point is that the Deville is not as small as you are making it out to be...



3) I still feel that since STS continues to shrink (not on an "inch here, 1/3 inch there level" but on a level to what other cars it is compared with like Acuras, 525i's etc)...If GM was looking to comete in highly compact performance segments.

Over and over saying the same thing. I don't even understand why you posted this about the "Acura" and the "525i", both those cars are smaller than the STS???



4) I learned long ago that people's compensation plan dictates their behavior. Many "Supporting Members" here feel it is apropriate to call me a "troll" because I am in between buyers and their bank accounts. What I mean here is that why would you bash a 2005 STS critic unless you were looking to gain from the sale of the 2005 STS cars. A Caddy dealer would be the first person to shoot down criticism (think about it). I'm commenting for teh well being of teh Americans that buy the cars, shareholders and people that make money building cars that are positioned well. When a car is made cramped it is bad for America, Workers and Families that are stuck in that tiny back seat.

I resent that. I don't expect to be selling any STSs to anyone on the board, that's not my intention here. I'm a Cadillac fan, and have seen, driven, and compared the STS. I just simply don't agree with you. But my main frustration is that you continue to make comments like:

The STS prices are soaring - when they are infact dropping....when you compare options to options of the competitors pricewise, the STS is right there, if not lower in many cases. But you never comment back to those posts.

Or you post that the STS is "smaller" than X car, but when someone posts actual dimensions (like how the STS is longer, wider, taller, and larger in all interior measurements, than a 545i), you never comment. Simply posts again, the same thing.

I think a couple of your points are valid, but you post so much of the same thing over and over than my agreements get lost in my frustration that you simply seem like you are looking for EVERY excuse in the book to nail the STS to the wall for being something YOU wanted it to be, which it was never intended to be in the first place.

If you would post back comments or discussions in relation to the posts that are responses to yours, that would be different. But instead, you post one comment, get several responses, but do not address the responses, as if we are simply just mere mortals...Then your only comment back is to make some accusation that I'm here to defend the STS so that I can sell it to all these board members. Please...

And to continue to start thread after thread with the obvious intentions of stirring the pot (like that Citroen post), that just gets annoying.

Slick V
07-23-04, 08:11 PM
Ok, ill let bi-gones be bi-gones, but do us a favor and look at these numbers miscreant and gothicaleigh have shown. Those are from the factories, meaning they are fact and the numbers dont lie. They cannot put false numbers of there dimensions, interior or exterior, because thats false advertising. Just stop being so repetitive on stating that the new STS has a smaller interior then (.......), when people post factual interior dimensions that prove that the STS is bigger. Dont see what people write, read what they write.

Devil_concours
07-23-04, 09:20 PM
4) I learned long ago that people's compensation plan dictates their behavior. Many "Supporting Members" here feel it is apropriate to call me a "troll" because I am in between buyers and their bank accounts. What I mean here is that why would you bash a 2005 STS critic unless you were looking to gain from the sale of the 2005 STS cars. A Caddy dealer would be the first person to shoot down criticism (think about it). I'm commenting for teh well being of teh Americans that buy the cars, shareholders and people that make money building cars that are positioned well. When a car is made cramped it is bad for America, Workers and Families that are stuck in that tiny back seat.

Bring it on!
BTW there is a difference between "Supporting Members" and "Supporting Vendor"

Brett
07-23-04, 09:27 PM
Jersey, please stop starting threads. Consider this a warning, this constant crap borders on trollish behavior.

CoupeDevilleRob
07-23-04, 09:52 PM
Is jerseyvette the secret internet identity of Michael Moore? I mean he comes up with a good, yet controversial, argument, but then goes overboard with it by making up facts and insisting he's right.

And how the hell are cramped backseats bad for American workers? Most American workers can't afford a new Cadillac any way. Stop trying to use patriotism to slander American cars.

Why anyone even listens to him is beyond me. You know he's wrong and he thrives on these arguments. Ignore him and he'll go away.

CaddyFan2004
07-23-04, 11:30 PM
I looked at your post and it is great (re: Ford 500). Want to hear an interesting fact. Ford has a higher research and development annual budget than GM. If we all keep beating up on GM for poor designs they may wake up. WSJ posted that revenue is dropping at GM (the inverse is happening at Daimler and Ford). GM still a goliath and have deep pockets. Things happen in cycles, companies eventually wake up and respond to feedback and their is a turnaround.

That 500 is what I was referring to: Slightly larger outside and much bigger and more functional inside. I guess Ford is proud to make American sized cars. Good post!

I would be shocked if the statement about research budgets is true, but it requires too much effort to look it up.

The revenue one is easy, though, and as usual, JerseyVette is talking out of his ass. GM revenue is up this year. 2nd quarter income was 49.1 billion, Q1 was 47.8. 2nd quarter last year was 45.1 billion. 2nd quarter income was up 49% over last year.

SARANTCADDY1
07-24-04, 12:13 AM
Hey, Miscreant, where did you get the information regarding the new DTS? Is it still going to be on the K Body Platform? How different will it be from the current one?

BTW, can't we all just get along??? :grouphug:

jerseyvette
07-24-04, 12:55 AM
Jersey, please stop starting threads. Consider this a warning, this constant crap borders on trollish behavior.

I'm not trying to make any enemies Brett. I am too a true Cadillac fan that has owned several of these cars (currently my company has two for business cars SLS and an STS). Why have a forum if things are only the way you want them to be? Why not hear every side of the story? Am I not allowed to be here if I don't every design cadillac puts out? My posts are all facual in my opinion (which is what forums are about). Look at the amount of views and reply's on my posts. Many agree strongly with me so I don't feel bad speaking up.

I have also been seeing many respondants getting personal when I point out design flaws in cars like this 2005 STS. I also see a pettern that these people making the comments are mostly dealers looking to have apresence here to make money. Isn't that what ebay and other auto shopping Internet sites are for?

Why don't you want to just let me speak up? Do I need to start another forum called opencadillacdiscussions.com?

I've been good to your site and have actually bought products from your sponsoring vendors. I;'d expect some recriprocation.

jerseyvette
07-24-04, 01:00 AM
Ok, ill let bi-gones be bi-gones, but do us a favor and look at these numbers miscreant and gothicaleigh have shown. Those are from the factories, meaning they are fact and the numbers dont lie. They cannot put false numbers of there dimensions, interior or exterior, because thats false advertising. Just stop being so repetitive on stating that the new STS has a smaller interior then (.......), when people post factual interior dimensions that prove that the STS is bigger. Dont see what people write, read what they write.
Spoken like a gentleman Slick V and I appreciate that. I think we both agree that this debate is really fun and makes being on line such a better experience. Give me some creit for having the highest viewed posts. Maybe we'll meet at a car show sometime. I gte to FL a few times per year (great steamers and beer down there!)

Signed, A nice guy from Jersey that loves cadillacforums.com! :coolgleam

jerseyvette
07-24-04, 01:08 AM
I would be shocked if the statement about research budgets is true, but it requires too much effort to look it up.

The revenue one is easy, though, and as usual, JerseyVette is talking out of his ass. GM revenue is up this year. 2nd quarter income was 49.1 billion, Q1 was 47.8. 2nd quarter last year was 45.1 billion. 2nd quarter income was up 49% over last year.

The R&D Comment was true. There is a book at barnes and noble called "the top 20 of everything 2004" that lists companies with the highest R&D budgets and by vertical. I think ford is like 5.5 Bill Annually and GM is like $4.2 Bill annually..

Devil_concours
07-24-04, 08:57 AM
I'm not trying to make any enemies Brett. I am too a true Cadillac fan that has owned several of these cars (currently my company has two for business cars SLS and an STS). Why have a forum if things are only the way you want them to be? Why not hear every side of the story? Am I not allowed to be here if I don't every design cadillac puts out? My posts are all facual in my opinion (which is what forums are about). Look at the amount of views and reply's on my posts. Many agree strongly with me so I don't feel bad speaking up.

I have also been seeing many respondants getting personal when I point out design flaws in cars like this 2005 STS. I also see a pettern that these people making the comments are mostly dealers looking to have apresence here to make money. Isn't that what ebay and other auto shopping Internet sites are for?

Why don't you want to just let me speak up? Do I need to start another forum called opencadillacdiscussions.com?

I've been good to your site and have actually bought products from your sponsoring vendors. I;'d expect some recriprocation.
As others have pointed out, stop posting repetitive stuff. It gets annoying (ie, 5 yr that wouldn't stop kicking), and most people will see it as a trollishy behavior. It's good that you post your opinions but when others reply to your opinions with a fact and prove you wrong, learn to accept it.

miscreant
07-24-04, 10:30 AM
I also see a pettern that these people making the comments are mostly dealers looking to have apresence here to make money. Isn't that what ebay and other auto shopping Internet sites are for?


I'm the only "dealer" that I know of posting in competition of you, and I'm CERTAINLY not here to make money. Look how many posts I have made. Try to read them. How many can you find where I was trying to make money. Check out my site. I'm a participant, not a salesman (I'm not even a salesperson at the dealer). In fact, I think I've only ever posted about CTS-V's or XLR's that I have available simply because in certain areas they are hard to find. Several board members have called me and I've assisted them with their purchase SOMEWHERE else from SOMEONE else.

Brett
07-24-04, 11:06 AM
Jersey, i and the owner of this site have no problems with people having a negative opinion of Cadillac(i own a lexus). But constantly starting threads, specifically this one, where the original post is so utterly ridiculous makes it seem as if you are only here to troll/bash. I would recommend you just hang out, state your opinion where you see fit and hold off from starting any new threads for a while


And if people have attacked you personally, I havent seen it. And it wont be tolerated either.

rueben44
07-26-04, 12:47 AM
You are looking for every way possible to hate the STS. Under your name it says "Cadillac Fan", though you don't act like one. You say "The STS is smaller than XXXX car" then some posts actual dimensions that shows it longer, taller, and wider, and you make no comment, only to simply CONTINUE to go on saying it's smaller. You post pictures of an S500 with the seats all the way foward and then pictures of a DTS and STS with seats all the way back, and claim "look, the S500 is roomier".

You post pricing of the STS based on the top of the line models. The V6 starts just over $40k and the V8 starts at a little over $47k. The $55K+ cars are the ones with ALL the bells like adaptive cruise, nav, 5.1 surround sound. Your comparisons are off, you claim its smaller when it's not, and you compare it to a CTS when it's very different (other than the steering wheel center design, they look completely different inside!).

But I digress, judging by previous posts, you'll simply find some other reason to rag on the STS and other Cadillacs...



Right on the money he trashes the cars and says a lot of silly stuff and it is not even factual. Just a lot of ranting and raving. Even after we showed that the STS was bigger than the imports inside. Still he tries to make up stuff.

miscreant
07-26-04, 12:59 AM
The R&D Comment was true. There is a book at barnes and noble called "the top 20 of everything 2004" that lists companies with the highest R&D budgets and by vertical. I think ford is like 5.5 Bill Annually and GM is like $4.2 Bill annually..

The Ford numbers are skewed. Ford owns Mazda, and Land Rover, of which both companies are undergoing a ton of makeovers (The mazda line is almost completely changind, and the new LR3 was VERY expensive for land rover), plus couple that with the fact that Ford has just recently went into the restyle of their own vehicles (they have some of the oldest chassis and models in the market), it would be expected that they would have the budget. Having the budget does NOT mean they are actually making the cars that will reflect that budget...

gothicaleigh
07-26-04, 11:18 AM
I don't think that the Ford numbers are 'skewed' per se. GM's numbers include many small splinter automakers too (HUMMER, Saab, Opel, Holden, etc.). Also remember that Pontiac, Chevrolet, and Buick are undergoing massive redesigns of practically their entire car lineups. I don't know if it made the Barnes&Noble report, but GM invested 4 billion in Cadillac alone (how much of Ford's percentage was Lincoln, hmm?). 3 billion will be thrown at Buick in hopes of turning it into an 'american Lexus' in the next few years too.

Of course, Ford can throw as much money at R&D as it wants, but if it doesn't show in production it will all be for naught. R&D budget is a poor way to gauge a company. Some may get more 'bang for the buck'. Look to the end results.

megeebee
07-26-04, 11:49 AM
I don't think that the Ford numbers are 'skewed' per se. GM's numbers include many small splinter automakers too (HUMMER, Saab, Opel, Holden, etc.). Also remember that Pontiac, Chevrolet, and Buick are undergoing massive redesigns of practically their entire car lineups. I don't know if it made the Barnes&Noble report, but GM invested 4 billion in Cadillac alone (how much of Ford's percentage was Lincoln, hmm?). 3 billion will be thrown at Buick in hopes of turning it into an 'american Lexus' in the next few years too.

Of course, Ford can throw as much money at R&D as it wants, but if it doesn't show in production it will all be for naught. R&D budget is a poor way to gauge a company. Some may get more 'bang for the buck'. Look to the end results.

...True words! Sometimes I wonder why Ford is bothering to sink money they barely have in to "saving" both Mercury and Lincoln. The Town Cars' underpinnings date to the 1977 model year (Ford "LTD II). The redecorating that this and the LS went through for 2003 has had only the effect of cutting sales. A very large percentage of both these sedans go directly to rental fleets. (Cadillac does sell base Devilles to such companies but in much lower numbers). The Aviator took off only with $3000 rebates. The Navigator is all that's keeping the franchise afloat. Now, I read that Ford may be considering building the next Town Car off the front wheel/ all wheel drive Ford Five Hundred platform. There will be (still more) concept cars at Detroit in January to showcase (another) direction for Lincoln.
And on that subject, does anyone know what happened to all those Lincoln concept cars from the past 6 years? Every January of this decade you could bet there would be a concept Lincoln at the Detroit show, but the only thing they seemed to have influenced is the grille on the current Town Car.

1toycad
07-26-04, 03:30 PM
This is an interestign thread.

I think that JerseyVette is correct in many aspects. Caddies have been getting smaller over the years. I was at the dealer the other day and there was a mint 1984 Fleetwood, with only 20K miles on the clock. Next to it, my 1999 Seville looked like a Mini Cooper.

Whether that is a good or a bad thing, remains to be seen. I don't think that making the cars smaller is necessarily a bad thing. Personally, I prefer the proportions of my Seville over the proportions of that 1984 Fleetwood. It is just a matter of preference.

Germany is making smaller sedans. My own S series 420SEL was replaced by the HUGE next generation S series. That model (the W140 body) did not sell well, however. The new (current) generation S series is smaller than the last generation and it is doing quite well. In today's market, size does matter.... :lildevil:

I think that American cars should make better use of interior space. My Seville is a large sedan on the outside and it is FWD to boot. Yet, the interior space in the backseat is very cramped. I think that the engineers at GM could have found a way to make the current generation Seville bigger in the inside, while retaining the same outside proportions.

One final thought, if you guys don't like what JerseyVette posts, why do you answer him then? If you don't answer him, the thread dies by its own lack of interest. Just a thought.

95Concours
07-29-04, 06:19 PM
Guys & girls, this guy is just some chimp looking to argue... Everytime you respond to one of his post with reason, logic and hard facts all you're doing is giving the little monkey another banana to cr@p back out at you.... Best thing to do is ignore his post if they are the ususual nonsense psycho-babble... Oh, before I forget, if you (Jerseyvette) actually believe that the citroen and the caddilac look anything alike with the exception of both having the basic car elements (i.e. 4 wheels, lights, doors etc.), you are definately dumber than a bag of hammers.... Well, thats my two cents.... And, the new STS rules!

ben72227
07-30-04, 01:03 AM
Caddies have been getting smaller over the years.

True words. My '80 Eldorado is HUGE compared to everything else on the road.

I think that the resizing(sp?) of Cadillac over the years is good and bad. Its good because Cadillac can compete more with the Euro and Jap cars since nowadays people aren't looking for gas guzzlers.

On the other hand, i think that with the down-sizing of Caddys, Cadillac has lost their image of what they used to be. Instead of being a Cadillac, they're just another luxary car. I might as well get a Lexus LS 430 or a Lincoln Town Car. But i think that the image problem is more of a American car maker thing. Pretty much all of the American cars went UGLY in the 80s including Cadillac (compared to their previous models) and its just now that the American car makers have caught up to the Japs in terms of quality and the Euros in terms of design.

Examples of this are:

1) Ford Mustang; Who doesn't want a Shelby Mustang??? Then they got UGLY, real UGLY. Just compare a '68 Mustang to an '88 Mustang. There is no comparison. But with the new '05 Mustang, Ford is finally getting back to where they were. Granted, its still a Found On Road Dead. But its good for American cars.

2) Chevy Corvette; Who doesn't want a Stingray Corvette??? And just like the Mustangs, they got real ugly too. Maybe this new Corvette will be good. But then again, it doesn't have the fold-down head lights. Could be bad....

3) Heres a Cadillac for us....how bout the DeVille??? To make this one easy, i will just post pictures (hopefully the links will work)

http://www.57heaven.com/Images/cadillac62devilleconv.jpg

http://www.pevomuc.de/100-Cadillac/PECAAR.08/1987-A/87sdv.jpg

If anyone thinks that the 87 deville looks better than the '57, then they must be crazy.

But just like the Ford Mustang and the Chevy Corvette, the Deville is looking nice. The '06 DeVille looks great expecially with the design cues from the 16.

I think that GM & Ford just got lazy and then they had to pay the price for it. But now they've caught up and i might actually buy another American made car one of these days if they keep going like they're doing now....

jerseyvette
07-30-04, 12:24 PM
Guys & girls, this guy is just some chimp looking to argue... Everytime you respond to one of his post with reason, logic and hard facts all you're doing is giving the little monkey another banana to cr@p back out at you.... Best thing to do is ignore his post if they are the ususual nonsense psycho-babble... Oh, before I forget, if you (Jerseyvette) actually believe that the citroen and the caddilac look anything alike with the exception of both having the basic car elements (i.e. 4 wheels, lights, doors etc.), you are definately dumber than a bag of hammers.... Well, thats my two cents.... And, the new STS rules!

STS does rule in a parking lot full of Acuras. :worship:

jerseyvette
07-30-04, 12:41 PM
True words. My '80 Eldorado is HUGE compared to everything else on the road.

I think that the resizing(sp?) of Cadillac over the years is good and bad. Its good because Cadillac can compete more with the Euro and Jap cars since nowadays people aren't looking for gas guzzlers.

On the other hand, i think that with the down-sizing of Caddys, Cadillac has lost their image of what they used to be. Instead of being a Cadillac, they're just another luxary car. I might as well get a Lexus LS 430 or a Lincoln Town Car. But i think that the image problem is more of a American car maker thing. Pretty much all of the American cars went UGLY in the 80s including Cadillac (compared to their previous models) and its just now that the American car makers have caught up to the Japs in terms of quality and the Euros in terms of design.

Examples of this are:

1) Ford Mustang; Who doesn't want a Shelby Mustang??? Then they got UGLY, real UGLY. Just compare a '68 Mustang to an '88 Mustang. There is no comparison. But with the new '05 Mustang, Ford is finally getting back to where they were. Granted, its still a Found On Road Dead. But its good for American cars.

2) Chevy Corvette; Who doesn't want a Stingray Corvette??? And just like the Mustangs, they got real ugly too. Maybe this new Corvette will be good. But then again, it doesn't have the fold-down head lights. Could be bad....

3) Heres a Cadillac for us....how bout the DeVille??? To make this one easy, i will just post pictures (hopefully the links will work)

http://www.57heaven.com/Images/cadillac62devilleconv.jpg

http://www.pevomuc.de/100-Cadillac/PECAAR.08/1987-A/87sdv.jpg

If anyone thinks that the 87 deville looks better than the '57, then they must be crazy.

But just like the Ford Mustang and the Chevy Corvette, the Deville is looking nice. The '06 DeVille looks great expecially with the design cues from the 16.

I think that GM & Ford just got lazy and then they had to pay the price for it. But now they've caught up and i might actually buy another American made car one of these days if they keep going like they're doing now....
I used to drive an 85 Cupe Deville and it was quick and very comfortable for it's time. The resurgance of large prestige cars is coming back and this is what many on this site are overlooking. The Germans have had a history of having the newest type of car designs 9leading concepts) since the 80s in the large sport luxury sedan segment (my earliest memories were the 420SEL's and the Older 735i's). These cars were and are big, heavy and can hold their own at high speeds. For an example of how the Germans are leading this resurgance of the "big sedan" is the Volkswagen Phaeton. This car is RWD with a massive engine available (The W12). The engine is shared with the Bentley Continental GT See the pic below of a larger car that is still nimble, high tech and easy to park. A cool feature (no pun intended) is that each passenger gets their own climate controlled environment. Long live big brawny, stodgy high performance sedans! :bouncy:

miscreant
07-30-04, 02:01 PM
I used to drive an 85 Cupe Deville and it was quick and very comfortable for it's time. The resurgance of large prestige cars is coming back and this is what many on this site are overlooking. The Germans have had a history of having the newest type of car designs 9leading concepts) since the 80s in the large sport luxury sedan segment (my earliest memories were the 420SEL's and the Older 735i's). These cars were and are big, heavy and can hold their own at high speeds. For an example of how the Germans are leading this resurgance of the "big sedan" is the Volkswagen Phaeton. This car is RWD with a massive engine available (The W12). The engine is shared with the Bentley Continental GT See the pic below of a larger car that is still nimble, high tech and easy to park. A cool feature (no pun intended) is that each passenger gets their own climate controlled environment. Long live big brawny, stodgy high performance sedans! :bouncy:
Yes, the Phaeton is a large, plush car. But at $70k+ nicely equipped, and approaching over $100,000+, it's not an STS competitor.

Manufacturers aren't moving to larger vehicles, they are adding larger vehicles to their lineup. In actuallity, many are making the current models smaller, tighter, sleeker, while then adding a new larger model to the line-up.

I understand your points, and I don't disagree with the fact that Cadillac needs to compete in this market you point out. My major complaint about your posts simply was that you were expecting the STS to be that competitor, but the market segment that even back in 1998 and on, that bought the Seville STS was not the big boat Cadillac buyer. The Seville STS has previously been too much luxury and too much sheetmetal and not enough sport and flash to compete with the competitors it was supposed to be against. Instead, because it was too plush and not sporty, it was usually mistaken to compete with the larger guys, and failed miserably. Finally the STS can compete and stand it's ground against the true competitors it always had. The STS is not the car you are looking for. The STS was desperately needed to fill that *middle* slot. Had it been the big boat, sport machine that you want it to be, a HUGE gaping hole would be left in Cadillac's line-up, of which is a much LARGER market than the large euro-lux market is...

Caddy Man
07-30-04, 02:23 PM
Yes, the Phaeton is a large, plush car. But at $70k+ nicely equipped, and approaching over $100,000+, it's not an STS competitor.

Manufacturers aren't moving to larger vehicles, they are adding larger vehicles to their lineup. In actuallity, many are making the current models smaller, tighter, sleeker, while then adding a new larger model to the line-up.

I understand your points, and I don't disagree with the fact that Cadillac needs to compete in this market you point out. My major complaint about your posts simply was that you were expecting the STS to be that competitor, but the market segment that even back in 1998 and on, that bought the Seville STS was not the big boat Cadillac buyer. The Seville STS has previously been too much luxury and too much sheetmetal and not enough sport and flash to compete with the competitors it was supposed to be against. Instead, because it was too plush and not sporty, it was usually mistaken to compete with the larger guys, and failed miserably. Finally the STS can compete and stand it's ground against the true competitors it always had. The STS is not the car you are looking for. The STS was desperately needed to fill that *middle* slot. Had it been the big boat, sport machine that you want it to be, a HUGE gaping hole would be left in Cadillac's line-up, of which is a much LARGER market than the large euro-lux market is...
exactly...jerseyvette, with all due respect, why cant you get it through your head that the STS is not the big cadillac?! :annoyed: Its not meant to be. It isnt meant to go up against the s class or the 7 series. Its the middle car in the linup, the sportier luxury sedan. You keep wanting big cadillacs, well look elsewhere because since the introduction of the Seville or STS, IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE THE HUGE CADILLLAC BOAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.

jerseyvette
07-30-04, 02:26 PM
Yes, the Phaeton is a large, plush car. But at $70k+ nicely equipped, and approaching over $100,000+, it's not an STS competitor.

Manufacturers aren't moving to larger vehicles, they are adding larger vehicles to their lineup. In actuallity, many are making the current models smaller, tighter, sleeker, while then adding a new larger model to the line-up.

I understand your points, and I don't disagree with the fact that Cadillac needs to compete in this market you point out. My major complaint about your posts simply was that you were expecting the STS to be that competitor, but the market segment that even back in 1998 and on, that bought the Seville STS was not the big boat Cadillac buyer. The Seville STS has previously been too much luxury and too much sheetmetal and not enough sport and flash to compete with the competitors it was supposed to be against. Instead, because it was too plush and not sporty, it was usually mistaken to compete with the larger guys, and failed miserably. Finally the STS can compete and stand it's ground against the true competitors it always had. The STS is not the car you are looking for. The STS was desperately needed to fill that *middle* slot. Had it been the big boat, sport machine that you want it to be, a HUGE gaping hole would be left in Cadillac's line-up, of which is a much LARGER market than the large euro-lux market is...I think we agree that Cadillac 16 in 8 cylinder at $70K and a 16 Cylinder at $90K is the solution to my needs for the lineup. Why would Cadillac come out with a 16 and then make new cars that don't follow (even remotely) the design philosophy or theme? Same holds true with the 2 door Cien (I believe this was the indy car looking car?) anyway that car makes anyone drool because it is a supercar. I think we all want some of these concept cars to come alive! XLR was a good and bold start!