: Dynoing a 100 mile CTS-V?



Gary Wells
07-24-09, 04:47 PM
Would you be concerned about dynoing a 100 mile CTS-V? Bone stock, 91 0ctane unleaded in it.

NeedCTS-v
07-24-09, 06:02 PM
I would not do it to my own car in preference of getting some good break in miles on the drive line (not the motor). 501 miles is a different story.

Prof
07-24-09, 06:26 PM
Concur with the above...while it might be old school, every new or rebuilt engine that will be driven on the street needs maybe 1500 miles just to be sure that anything that is in the system or that comes off a moving part is not banging around. I also think but have been contradicted, that changing the oil after that first 1500 on a street car is good insurance. In my hot rod truck...the oil get changed ten minutes after being fired up...again at 1000 and then every three thousand there after. I know, I am a little obsessive-compulsive.

Dyno testing is pretty extreme work for an engine...and the purpose should not be getting big numbers...it is to gain data to adjust A/F ratios across the entire power band...

GM-4-LIFE
07-24-09, 07:26 PM
I dyno tested my 2006 CTS-V with 91 miles on it and my 2004 Z06 and 2005 C6 with less than 100 miles on it as well. I took delivery of them and took them to the dyno and I never had any problems with them.

I haven't had a chance to dyno my 09 V yet and I have about 6,500 miles on it now. I hope to get it dyno tested and then dyno tuned soon. It's just so damn hot out here. Everyday has been 100+ degrees.

SG

Gary Wells
07-24-09, 07:45 PM
I dyno tested my 2006 CTS-V with 91 miles on it and my 2004 Z06 and 2005 C6 with less than 100 miles on it as well. I took delivery of them and took them to the dyno and I never had any problems with them.

I haven't had a chance to dyno my 09 V yet and I have about 6,500 miles on it now. I hope to get it dyno tested and then dyno tuned soon. It's just so damn hot out here. Everyday has been 100+ degrees.

SG

SG:
Just curious, but do you run tunes on most of your high performance vehicles? You're definitely not one of those who is afraid of the dyno.

kck
07-24-09, 08:30 PM
Gary raises an interesting question in his first post regarding when to dyno, and NeedCTS-v’s response that one needs to be especially concerned to gently break-in the transmission and differential is consistent with my understanding of what parts of the V need the most careful break-in. Short-Throw has also commented that the differential requires careful break-in (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/165703-service-procedure-wheel-clicking-official-tsb-3.html). And see the following thread for additional forum members who emphasize that it is the transmission and especially the differential that need the most careful break-in, not the engine: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/168899-break-question.html

I’ve been following the break-in recommendations from the GM owner’s manual, which essentially says: (1) not to exceed 70 mph for the first 1500 miles (which I assume is aimed at promoting the break-in of the transmission & differential prior to spinning the parts of these two systems at faster speeds), (2) to vary ones speed and not do “aggressive starts” for the first 500 miles (which Short-Throw suggests allows the break-in “coating” on the differential to seat parts properly), and (3) to go gentle on the brakes for the first 200 miles (which assumedly allows the brake pads to seat properly).

At this point I have about 500 miles on my new V, so I’m beginning to do more vigorous acceleration (though still far short of W.O.T., and not exceeding 3500 rpm or so). I plan on gradually increasing this procedure until I’m doing W.O.T. and redline rpm by 1,000 miles – though still staying below 70 mph until I hit 1500 miles. And I’m hoping to have close to 1500 miles before I swing by Jesse’s shop in Indiana for some Wait4me mods. In fact, Scott at Superior suggested to me to put 1500 miles on the V before putting it on a dyno. And Prof has just posted a comment that seems to concur one should have 1500 miles before dynoing.

The dilemma I face in following this GM recommended break-in procedure is potentially “neglecting” the best break-in for the engine. Dallara has suggested (see http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/163547-what-best-synthetic-oil-best-oil-6.html) that the engine may require some hard W.O.T. during the very earliest break-in period (i.e., well before 500 miles) in order to seal the rings properly. With some trepidation (given Dallara’s considerable experience and obvious expertise), I’ve decided not to follow this recommendation. I’m hoping that the rumors are true that claim GM runs the Vette/V engines at 6,000 rpm for 30 seconds (or is it 60 seconds?) on an engine stand prior to installing them in the engine bay. If true, then possibly this would be sufficient to do the “ring seating” that Dallara notes is important in the engines very early life. But maybe I’m just engaging in “wishful thinking”!

As a final comment: I’m about ready to do my first oil change (at 500 miles), and I still haven’t decided whether I should add a half quart or so of GM EOS (i.e., zinc/phosphorous compounds) to enhance engine lubrication and thereby provide better engine protection. (I’ve outlined some of these “engine oil protection” issues I’m confronting on the “Best oil & filter” thread starting at http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/163547-what-best-synthetic-oil-best-oil-5.html)

Kyle

Gary Wells
07-24-09, 08:51 PM
"Last edited by kck; 07-24-09 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Gary has made second post I did not originally see, so my response may be confusing"
Kyle: Gary was born confused & has only gotten worse with old age, don't let it worry you.

vperl
07-24-09, 10:11 PM
"Last edited by kck; 07-24-09 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Gary has made second post I did not originally see, so my response may be confusing"
Kyle: Gary was born confused & has only gotten worse with old age, don't let it worry you.


*************************************

just for the record, any of you guys own a sts ?

GM-4-LIFE
07-24-09, 11:46 PM
SG:
Just curious, but do you run tunes on most of your high performance vehicles? You're definitely not one of those who is afraid of the dyno.

All of my cars were dyno tested and then dyno tuned so I could see the before and after results.

I don't believe in breaking in an engine. I have yet to break in a new engine according to the manufacturer's recommendations and I have yet to have any engine problems on any of my GM vehicles.

SG

kck
07-25-09, 12:33 AM
All of my cars were dyno tested and then dyno tuned so I could see the before and after results.

I don't believe in breaking in an engine. I have yet to break in a new engine according to the manufacturer's recommendations and I have yet to have any engine problems on any of my GM vehicles.

SG

AERO1:
When you say you have yet to break-in any of your engines based on factory recommendations, am I correct to assume that you are saying that you have run all your engines hard from the very start? If so, have you had any problems with your transmissions or differentials?

As suggested by some forum members in this thread (and in other threads), it may be that the real problem with running engines hard from the start is not that it will harm the engine. Indeed, depending on which experts you consult, the engines are either (1) already broken in from the factory or (2) should be run hard initially to facilitate the rings setting properly. In either case, hard dyno runs should not be a problem in the early life of the engine. But what many forum experts seem to worry about is that the longevity of the transmission and especially the differential can be compromised by running your car hard initially.

Kyle

aco
07-25-09, 12:34 AM
AERO1,

I have yet to do any performance modifications and I know that longevity will most likely be degraded, but I usually run mine into the ground, > 10 years. How long do you keep your cars?

GM-4-LIFE
07-25-09, 02:28 PM
kck,

I haven't had any issues with the tranny or the rear diff. I must mention that at 1,908 miles, I changed my oil, had the factory trans fluid flushed and replaced and had the rear diff gear oil dropped. I went to Amsoil in all 3 holes. I may be hard on my cars, but I maintain them very well to ensure that they last.

aco,

I keep my cars for average 2-3 years, but with the way I drive them, that equates to 10+ years compared to someone who babies their cars.

When my 09 V came off the truck, it had 7 miles on the odometer. I drove it hard with many WOT situations when the car was brand new. I didn't do WOT acceleration from a start, but while the vehicle was in motion, say about 50-65 MPH and then I would go WOT.

I still haven't gone WOT from a stop. I want the tires to last as they are very expensive to replace.

SG

kck
07-25-09, 07:38 PM
kck,

I haven't had any issues with the tranny or the rear diff. I must mention that at 1,908 miles, I changed my oil, had the factory trans fluid flushed and replaced and had the rear diff gear oil dropped. I went to Amsoil in all 3 holes. I may be hard on my cars, but I maintain them very well to ensure that they last.

aco,

I keep my cars for average 2-3 years, but with the way I drive them, that equates to 10+ years compared to someone who babies their cars.

When my 09 V came off the truck, it had 7 miles on the odometer. I drove it hard with many WOT situations when the car was brand new. I didn't do WOT acceleration from a start, but while the vehicle was in motion, say about 50-65 MPH and then I would go WOT.

I still haven't gone WOT from a stop. I want the tires to last as they are very expensive to replace.

SG

AERO1:
How many miles do you now have on your V?

Your earlier post seemed to indicate that you have also “run hard” some of your other cars in their early life in addition to the V. How have the transmissions and differentials held up on these other cars you’ve owned?

Like you, I’m also planning on using Amsoil for the transmission and differential -- and add the GM Limited Slip Additive instead of Amsoil AMSOIL Slip Lock Additive, based on your earlier recommendation on the “First Oil Change” thread.

Question: Do you use just one 4 oz. bottle of the GM Limited Slip Additive?

I’m just getting ready to do an oil change at 500 miles. I’ll probably go with 0w40 Mobil 1 based on my interpretation of information on the (7-page) “Best Oil” thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/163547-what-best-synthetic-oil-best-oil.html. But the Amsoil 0w30 was a very close second in my final decision-making process.

Kyle

GM-4-LIFE
07-25-09, 09:55 PM
AERO1:
How many miles do you now have on your V?

Your earlier post seemed to indicate that you have also “run hard” some of your other cars in their early life in addition to the V. How have the transmissions and differentials held up on these other cars you’ve owned?

Like you, I’m also planning on using Amsoil for the transmission and differential -- and add the GM Limited Slip Additive instead of Amsoil AMSOIL Slip Lock Additive, based on your earlier recommendation on the “First Oil Change” thread.

Question: Do you use just one 4 oz. bottle of the GM Limited Slip Additive?

I’m just getting ready to do an oil change at 500 miles. I’ll probably go with 0w40 Mobil 1 based on my interpretation of information on the (7-page) “Best Oil” thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/163547-what-best-synthetic-oil-best-oil.html. But the Amsoil 0w30 was a very close second in my final decision-making process.

Kyle

Kyle,

I took very good care of all my cars I have ever had and yes, I did engine, tranny and rear end diff oil changes.

Yes, you use just 1 bottle of the GM LSA.

I would go Mobil 1 0w30 or 5w30 before 0w40. The 40 weight may be too thick. The main reason why GM runs a 30 weight motor oil is because they had a very high rate of crankshaft failures during their testing with thicker viscosities. The 5w30 weight oil is an all around good viscosity. Don't jeopardize your engine with a non-approved viscosity. GM does not recommend any oil thicker than 10w30 which is way too thick for GM engines anyway. I ran 10w30 in my GM V8s back in the mid 90s and it really holds the performance of the engine back. I could actually feel the difference.

I would highly recommend going with the Amsoil 0w30. It is a really great performing oil. The 0w30 flows faster at cold start and performs way better during WOT situations.

SG

kck
07-28-09, 12:52 AM
Kyle,

I took very good care of all my cars I have ever had and yes, I did engine, tranny and rear end diff oil changes.

Yes, you use just 1 bottle of the GM LSA.

I would go Mobil 1 0w30 or 5w30 before 0w40. The 40 weight may be too thick. The main reason why GM runs a 30 weight motor oil is because they had a very high rate of crankshaft failures during their testing with thicker viscosities. The 5w30 weight oil is an all around good viscosity. Don't jeopardize your engine with a non-approved viscosity. GM does not recommend any oil thicker than 10w30 which is way too thick for GM engines anyway. I ran 10w30 in my GM V8s back in the mid 90s and it really holds the performance of the engine back. I could actually feel the difference.

I would highly recommend going with the Amsoil 0w30. It is a really great performing oil. The 0w30 flows faster at cold start and performs way better during WOT situations.

SG

AERO1:
I didn’t see your post here before I made my last post on the “Best Oil” thread.

That’s really interesting that you can feel the performance differences by weight of some oils. But I’m wondering if there would be a noticeable (“real-world”) horsepower difference between the 0w30 Amsoil vs. the 0w40 Mobil 1. Some of the information I have described on the “Best Oil” thread would seem to indicate to me, quite surprisingly, that it’s the lower (0w) number that may be the most important determinant of the horsepower gains with a “thinner oil.” But as I note on that other thread, I don’t have the background to interpret the various oil “indexes” that Mobil reports on their web page regarding their potential relevance to determining the relative horsepower numbers that might be generated by a given oil’s viscosity range. I was hoping that one of our forum members might be able to provide some insight regarding those indexes.

It would also be very interesting to know if the 0w30 Amsoil vs. 0w40 Mobil 1 oils generate the same “cold start” “oil thinness” numbers, given that both oils have the same “0w” lower-end numbers, and Mobil advertises that their 0w40 oil is made for “arctic temperatures.”

Kyle

GM-4-LIFE
07-28-09, 01:13 AM
AERO1:
I didn’t see your post here before I made my last post on the “Best Oil” thread.

That’s really interesting that you can feel the performance differences by weight of some oils. But I’m wondering if there would be a noticeable (“real-world”) horsepower difference between the 0w30 Amsoil vs. the 0w40 Mobil 1. Some of the information I have described on the “Best Oil” thread would seem to indicate to me, quite surprisingly, that it’s the lower (0w) number that may be the most important determinant of the horsepower gains with a “thinner oil.” But as I note on that other thread, I don’t have the background to interpret the various oil “indexes” that Mobil reports on their web page regarding their potential relevance to determining the relative horsepower numbers that might be generated by a given oil’s viscosity range. I was hoping that one of our forum members might be able to provide some insight regarding those indexes.

It would also be very interesting to know if the 0w30 Amsoil vs. 0w40 Mobil 1 oils generate the same “cold start” “oil thinness” numbers, given that both oils have the same “0w” lower-end numbers, and Mobil advertises that their 0w40 oil is made for “arctic temperatures.”

Kyle

Kyle,

The 0w properties are the same for both oils. They flow at a 0 weight (very thin) when the engines are cold and warming up. When the engine gets to normal operating temps, that is where the second number of a viscosity kicks in and thickens up.

As I mentioned before, GM states NEVER TO RUN A ENGINE OIL THICKER THAN 10w30 because a 40 or 50 weight oil becomes thicker when the engine gets to normal operating temps and therefore causes an engine to have to work harder to perform.

When GM tested their engines about 15 or more years ago and even as of recent, they noticed that when they used a 5w30 viscosity oil, they didn't have crankshaft failures compared to when they used the thicker grade oils.

I highly highly warn everyone to NOT use any oil thicker than a 30 weight. Run any brand of oil, but do not run a thicker oil. There is no point when it comes to synthetics. All synthetics protect no matter what and if you run a 0w30, 5w30 or 10w30, they all protect the engine the same at normal operating temps as they are all 30 weight oils. The thinner oil 0w30 protects the engine the same as a 5 or 10 weight due to superior base stocks, but it allows an engine to work freely when the engine is colder and protects better in cold start situations.

Run the Amsoil 0w30 and you will feel the difference as I did going from the Mobil 1 5w30. I know it sounds crazy and it may be that I am very sensitive and in-tune with my cars, but I did notice the car feel more zippy with the lighter weight 0w30 Amsoil. Even the Mobil 1 0w30 that I run in my wife's 2009 Escalade had a noticeable improvement when running the thinner 0 weight Mobil 1.

I hope this helps explain what I am talking about. I have owned a ton of GM LSx powered V8 vehicles over the past 15 years and I have had a lot of experience with how they run with different oil weights.

Try the 0w30 oil. It doesn't matter whether you run Mobil 1 or Amsoil. I feel that Amsoil makes a better quality synthetic according to the research and test data I have reviewed and since I own my CTS-V, I want to ensure that I am running the best oil I can buy. My wife's Escalade is a lease and there is no use to run the Amsoil in a car we aren't going to keep.

SG

kck
07-28-09, 08:02 PM
Aero1:
Thanks for your very informative post. Although I just put 0w40 Mobil 1 in my V at my 500 mile change (an 0w40 oil which my local Caddy dealer even carries, because it is the spec for their Saab line of cars), you have me “leaning back” towards 0w30 Amsoil for my next planned oil change at 2,000 miles.

Some Follow-Up Questions:
(1) As I asked in my last post on the “Best Oil” thread, if this “heavier weight” oil is a problem for GM engines, do you have any insight into why the 0w40 Mobil 1 is the spec for Z06s sold in Europe (as C66 Racing has noted on the “Best Oil” thread)?

(2) Why do you think that Mobil’s own web site recommends 0w40 Mobil 1 (and not 5w30 Mobil 1) for high performance street cars (which I think we would all agree would be a category our Vs fall into!)? (See the bottom of the web page at https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Racing_Oils.aspx.)

(3) Have you seen any information that compares relative horsepower figures for various viscosity oils?

(4) Have you seen any discussions of how to interpret the various oil “indexes” included in the tables posted at the Mobil web site – e.g., the “Typical Properties” table for 0w40 Mobil 1 oil at the bottom of the web page at http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.asp

Kyle

C66 Racing
08-01-09, 03:06 PM
Kyle,
A little slow here as I've been traveling across country for my move. Answering a few of your questions and commenting further on what Aero1 mentioned above...

The 0w (cold flow) rating is a little misleading in my opinion. To see this note that at 40C, Mobil rates their 0w40's viscosity as 78.3 cSt. For comparison, at this same temp, which really isn't that cold, the AMSOIL 0w30 has a viscosity of 56.6 cSt. So though both are a 0wX, the AMSOIL will flow much much better when cold, which in my opinion will improve cold wear and reduce cold friction (thus better mpg and net Hp). Also note that these viscosities are on the order of six times higher than that of the oil at nominal operating temp (listed below) despite the "0" being lower than the "30" or "40".

Hot (xw30 vs xw40) grade. 30 grade is a band of viscosity rated at 212F as 9.30-12.49 cSt. 40 grade is a band of viscosity rated at 212F as 12.50 to 16.29 cSt. At 212F, Mobil lists the viscosity of their 0w40 as 14 cSt. For comparision, the AMSOIL 0w30 is listed as 10.3. Thus the AMSOIL has about a 40% lower viscosity which again will improve mpg and net Hp.

Protection against wear is a harder question when hot, as is the added distractor that the API limits the phosphorus in the AMSOIL 0w30 to 800 ppm whereas the Mobil 1 0w40 has no such limitation. Further adding to the dilemma, if you use the 40 grade, you are outside the owner's manual recommendations which gets gray for warranty coverage on your high dollar motor. The AMSOIL 0w30 is listed by AMSOIL to be suitable for GM 4718M applications and thus has no warranty issues. Primarily for this reason, I, like Aero1, chose the AMSOIL 0w30 for my daily driver (06 CTS-V for me).

Because the Mobil 1 0w40 has a higher hot viscosity, and higher ZDDP than does its API SM 30 grade oils is probably why Mobil choses to list this oil for high performance applications and probably why GM recommends it in Euro spec Z06s. That said, as 40 grade oils go, I don't think it is that good. It's High Temp High Shear rating is 3.7 as compared to 4.3 for the AMSOIL Premium Protection 10w40. The Mobil 1 0w40 has 1000 ppm phosphorus and 1100 ppm zinc as compared to 1265 ppm and 1378 ppm respectively for the AMSOIL 10w40.

Though several companies put out ads indicating that you'll pick up Hp if you switch to their oils, I believe these are both true and misleading. Royal Purple for example was recently directed by the NAD to discontinue their ads with this claim. I personally believe that synthetic will in general reduce friction and free up net Hp over conventional oils. But, I believe that PAO synthetics (group IV) with polyol ester (group V) added achieve even lower coefficients of friction than do the majority of highly hydroprocessed mineral oil synthetics (group III) on the market. Though not conclusively documented or tested, I've seen net increases in my mpg in every vehicle I've owned when I've switched from factory fluids to AMSOIL oil, tranny and diff fluids. And if mpg is going up, net Hp is also, though I've never done a before and after comparison.

As for the indexes, here's a little info on a few of them:
HTHS - High Temp High Shear rating. Measures a lubricant’s viscosity under severe high temperature and shear conditions that are similar to severe service applications in an engine.
Vicosity Index - Measure of an oil’s viscosity change, called the Viscosity Index Number (VI); the higher the number, the smaller the viscosity change which in general means the better the oil protects the engine. The number does not indicate the actual viscosity in high and low temperature extremes of the oil. It represents the rate of viscosity change with temperature change.
NOACK Volatility - Determines the evaporation loss of lubricants in high temperature service. The more motor oils vaporize, the thicker and heavier they become, contributing to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy and increased oil consumption, wear and emissions.
Total Base Number (TBN) - Measureme of a lubricant’s reserve alkalinity, which aids in the control of acids formed during the combustion process. The higher a motor oil’s TBN, the more effective it is in suspending wear-causing contaminants and reducing the corrosive effects of acids over an extended period of time.
:cheers: