: Is there a "black Box" in your V2?



RWFJR
07-21-09, 12:03 AM
Rumors abound that the auto manufactures have started placing black boxes, like those found in planes and trains in newer vehicles so information can be downloaded after an accident to see several parameters of what the vehicle was doing just prior to the accident.

Anyone know if the V2 has one?

Florian
07-21-09, 12:11 AM
Every GM car since 08....


F

RWFJR
07-21-09, 12:16 AM
Every GM car since 08....


F

Did I miss something? I was not told nor did I read anything in my docs about this device. Can it be legally disconnected?

chopmeat
07-21-09, 12:21 AM
I already think it's a little wierd that OnStar knows my mileage!
Big Brother???
Lol

Florian
07-21-09, 12:23 AM
Did I miss something? I was not told nor did I read anything in my docs about this device. Can it be legally disconnected?

nope.


F

GM-4-LIFE
07-21-09, 01:38 AM
I was under the impression that GM has been installing so called "black boxes" for the last few years. They were on the C5 Corvette and I am sure they were on every GM vehicle before we even knew about them.

SG

aco
07-21-09, 02:31 AM
So can the "black box" detect a tune that was uploaded and subsequently backed out to the original, i.e. via handheld?

commander112
07-21-09, 11:27 AM
Hopefully Big Brother does not have a cockpit voice recorder.

CIWS
07-21-09, 11:30 AM
It supposed to capture the last 10-30 seconds of the car's various specs, as I've heard mainly for a post accident inspection, to look at and see things like speed, attitude, etc

CIWS
07-21-09, 11:34 AM
Hopefully Big Brother does not have a cockpit voice recorder.

The cabin mic can be enabled remotely to listen in. There was an FBI legal case that was thrown out of court while they were doing this listening to a known bad guy. Funny thing was the judge didn't throw it out because of illegal search and seizure. It was some other technicality about "jepordizing safety" or something like that.

Florian
07-21-09, 11:53 AM
So can the "black box" detect a tune that was uploaded and subsequently backed out to the original, i.e. via handheld?


yes, although it isnt thru the black box....the PCM/ECU now has a set of parameters that meters any change to the stock tune. So, if you upload, it changes, the Tech2 can read it and you can certainly be denied warranty.
Like they say, you gotta pay to play. You break anything, youre gonna end up buying it, unless you can schmooze your Service writer.


F

tedcmiller
07-21-09, 02:30 PM
I guess some people just don't pay attention. Collection of accident data by devices installed in vehicles that can be recovered by the appropriate law enforcement agencies has been around for years. Florian indicates that all GM vehicles since the '08 models have such devices. Most other vehicles probably have them, too.:yawn:

aco
07-21-09, 02:45 PM
I guess some people just don't pay attention. Collection of accident data by devices installed in vehicles that can be recovered by the appropriate law enforcement agencies has been around for years. Florian indicates that all GM vehicles since the '08 models have such devices. Most other vehicles probably have them, too.:yawn:

If your comment is directed toward me, excuse me for not being an expert on every technical aspect of electronic snooping devices. My question lies in the fact that "uploadable" tunes have been marketed as zero footprint and not traceable if returned to stock.

Florian, thank you for answering my question directly. Yes, I understand that any modifications run the risk of warranty denial. The black box discussion had been a hot topic on other car forums that I read and the supposed "invisibility" of tunes.

Florian
07-21-09, 02:55 PM
tunes used to be invisible, but GM figured that out as well.....the only way to beat it is to buy a separate core and change it out.


F

Krug Ford
07-21-09, 03:30 PM
It is always something.

They do it to protect them too.

Hawkeye2
07-21-09, 03:31 PM
my 98 Camaro has one. I am told that it is for information only and can not be used against you in court. There was just a very bad
accident ( not really an accident ) in Michigan were 5 youths were killed by a train. It was reported yesterday in the news that the
vehicle's black box showed the car was travelling at 60 MPH when it went passed the stopped vehicles and around the train crossing
guards.

RWFJR
07-21-09, 03:40 PM
I guess some people just don't pay attention. Collection of accident data by devices installed in vehicles that can be recovered by the appropriate law enforcement agencies has been around for years. Florian indicates that all GM vehicles since the '08 models have such devices. Most other vehicles probably have them, too.:yawn:

I retired after 29 years as a police officer in 2000. I have never heard of such a thing until I saw a program about this last year. What is your definition of "around for years"?

Tasos
07-21-09, 03:52 PM
Speaking of tunes, can you "tune off" or turn off the black box with a handheld programmer? Obviously we don't have that option on current models, but could that be done if so requested by the programmer? Jesse, are you there?

radix
07-21-09, 04:21 PM
The "black box" everyone is referring to is really just the airbag ECM -all it is doing is capturing in a buffer the last readings of the sensors it uses to determine when and how to fire the airbags (and some additional vehicle level data useful for diagnostic and other traffic safety use) - so mainly what is recorded is - accelerometers, speed, occupant presence - at a reduced rate from the serial data things like door switches, brake switch, temp, wipers, headlights, ect.

The data is only preserved if an airbag is deployed (or in some cases a "near deploy" - and saved for only a set number of ignition cycles before it is overwritten)

In the case of normal data - the buffers will be over written within seconds - and there is no record of anything you did (unless you crash).

All airbag systems have various versions of this feature. There are discussions about mandating certain data and who/how it may be used always going on in DC.

Nothing V specific about this topic.

Luna.
07-21-09, 05:24 PM
It supposed to capture the last 10-30 seconds of the car's various specs, as I've heard mainly for a post accident inspection, to look at and see things like speed, attitude, etc

Attitude?

So it can determine if I'm pissed off while driving? Wow...

:)


yes, although it isnt thru the black box....the PCM/ECU now has a set of parameters that meters any change to the stock tune. So, if you upload, it changes, the Tech2 can read it and you can certainly be denied warranty.
Like they say, you gotta pay to play. You break anything, youre gonna end up buying it, unless you can schmooze your Service writer.


F

I'm an expert at schmoozing my female service manager... :highfive::)

Fubar75207
07-21-09, 06:33 PM
wait4me?

Ketzer
07-21-09, 07:31 PM
I hope you guys aren't asking someone with a business to run, if they will actively advertise defeating the car's datalogging ability in order to scam GM on your warranty? Damn.

Modifications will not void your warranty. Ask your service manager what is allowed and how he handles it and put your mind at ease.

If it's too big of a risk for you, stop thinking about mods.

Prof
07-21-09, 07:52 PM
I hope you guys aren't asking someone with a business to run, if they will actively advertise defeating the car's datalogging ability in order to scam GM on your warranty? Damn.

Modifications will not void your warranty. Ask your service manager what is allowed and how he handles it and put your mind at ease.

If it's too big of a risk for you, stop thinking about mods.

Good points, and I will be flamed for this but, if you swap out modified parts before going in for service...I believe that is fraud. If you increase the boost fine, but do not expect your added boost isn't going to raise eyebrows when you ask to get your engine rebuilt under warranty when the piston lands give out. Now if your electric windows don't work...there should be no issue!

Fubar75207
07-21-09, 08:36 PM
I hope you guys aren't asking someone with a business to run, if they will actively advertise defeating the car's datalogging ability in order to scam GM on your warranty? Damn.

Actually, I am. Wait4me said the tune was "undetectable." That certainly played a factor in buying it.

commander112
07-21-09, 08:48 PM
Actually, I am. Wait4me said the tune was "undetectable." That certainly played a factor in buying it.

Have you heard the old saying "build a better mouse trap..." This is a cat and mouse game. One side builds something "undetectable" and the other finds a way to detect it. There is a whole industry in computerland built on this premise.
I know that GM is broke but they have a lot more resources that wait4me. They will eventually be able to detect any changes made to their ECU. You want to play you have to pay. Not wait4me's or any other tuner's fault either. It was your decision to install the mod.

CIWS
07-21-09, 08:53 PM
Unless things have changed the data logging was being done as a function of the airbag module to determine if conditions were right to deploy. This information is stored there (last several seconds) in the EDR (event data recorder). If you take a moment to search through your owner's manual you'll probably find something similar to what is in mine.


"Some information may be stored during regular
operations to facilitate repair of detected malfunctions;
other information is stored only in a crash event by
computer systems, such as those commonly called event
data recorders (EDR).
In a crash event, computer systems, such as the Airbag
Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM) in your vehicle
may record information about the condition of the vehicle
and how it was operated, such as data related to engine
speed, brake application, throttle position, vehicle speed,
safety belt usage, airbag readiness, airbag performance,
and the severity of a collision. If your vehicle is equipped
with StabiliTrak®, steering performance, including yaw
rate, steering wheel angle, and lateral acceleration, is
also recorded. This information has been used to improve
vehicle crash performance and may be used to improve
crash performance of future vehicles and driving safety.
Unlike the data recorders on many airplanes, these
on-board systems do not record sounds, such as
conversation of vehicle occupants.
To read this information, special equipment is needed
and access to the vehicle or the device that stores
the data is required. GM will not access information
about a crash event or share it with others other than:
• with the consent of the vehicle owner or, if the
vehicle is leased, with the consent of the lessee,
• in response to an official request of police or similar
government office,
• as part of GM’s defense of litigation through the
discovery process, or
• as required by law.
In addition, once GM collects or receives data, GM may:
• use the data for GM research needs,
• make it available for research where appropriate
confidentiality is to be maintained and need is
shown, or
• share summary data which is not tied to a specific
vehicle with non-GM organizations for research
purposes.
Others, such as law enforcement, may have access to
the special equipment that can read the information
if they have access to the vehicle or the device
that stores the data.
If your vehicle is equipped with OnStar®, please
check the OnStar® subscription service agreement
or manual for information on its operations and
data collection."

tedcmiller
07-21-09, 10:37 PM
You flatter yourself. My comment was not directed at you.

CIWS
07-21-09, 11:01 PM
You flatter yourself. My comment was not directed at you.

Who are you commenting to ?

tedcmiller
07-22-09, 01:07 PM
CIWS,
My original post was to aco. His was the last post to this thread when I first read it and started composing my response. However a large number of people responded before my post made it to the thread so a lot of responders appeared between my second post and the post it was intended for. To avoid this problem in the future, I will always identify the poster to which a response is directed.

Having said that, this next response is RWFJR. I knew about the data collection at least 10 years ago.

Gotham CTS-V
07-22-09, 03:39 PM
Not totally related, but my friend has a Trailblazer SS. He had an ECU/Tranny tune on his car and his transmission blew. He flashed the car to stock and brought it in. They gave him a new transmission and covered it under warranty.

We may be worrying about this stuff too much. If it is flashed to stock and there is really no trace that it was tuned, then why worry? Just bring it in, play stupid, end of story. Hopefully our cars are built tough enough to handle a bit more boost.

Fubar75207
07-22-09, 04:03 PM
Have you heard the old saying "build a better mouse trap..." This is a cat and mouse game. One side builds something "undetectable" and the other finds a way to detect it. There is a whole industry in computerland built on this premise.
I know that GM is broke but they have a lot more resources that wait4me. They will eventually be able to detect any changes made to their ECU. You want to play you have to pay. Not wait4me's or any other tuner's fault either. It was your decision to install the mod.

Right but I only suggested that Wait4me sold his tune with the pitch that he was aware of GM ability to detect tunes and his tune successfully averted that technology. If things have changed then I would expect wait4me to chime and let us know. Thanks for the lecture on who is to blame.

Florian
07-22-09, 11:59 PM
Not totally related, but my friend has a Trailblazer SS. He had an ECU/Tranny tune on his car and his transmission blew. He flashed the car to stock and brought it in. They gave him a new transmission and covered it under warranty.

We may be worrying about this stuff too much. If it is flashed to stock and there is really no trace that it was tuned, then why worry? Just bring it in, play stupid, end of story. Hopefully our cars are built tough enough to handle a bit more boost.

You cant do this anymore....flashing the stock unit throws a flag....unlike the old days. You need a new core to beat the system.


F

cvettr/cts-v
07-23-09, 06:25 PM
Some c4 corvettes had them. They've been around for a long time.

Nutz
07-23-09, 07:03 PM
"That system contains the new data encription algorhythms, I can't believe your telling him about our back doors!"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3025/3103363860_a005c78346.jpg?v=1229113513

"Go right through Falken's maze for answers" gentlemen. :thepan:






:alchi:

Jayrcr3
07-24-09, 12:17 AM
LOL @ Nutz!!!! Shall we play a game? ;)

rjoffe
07-24-09, 10:02 AM
I think some of the younger guys may need some references here if they are going to figure out the above two posts :)

Fubar75207
07-24-09, 11:10 AM
It's a classic. It was made before Matthew Brodrerick was actually a nerd and Ally Sheedy was still hot.

aco
07-24-09, 06:40 PM
Don't forget to explain what a modem is. 200 baud at that ;)

dkozloski
07-24-09, 06:48 PM
Don't forget to explain what a modem is. 200 baud at that ;)
300 baud was the standard then.

aco
07-24-09, 06:56 PM
300 baud was the standard then.

Ah yes, you are correct sir, my bad. 300, 600, 1200... I did not have a computer back then and played games on my friends' computers.

neuronbob
07-24-09, 08:25 PM
I shudder to think that at 41, I'm old..... Or at least old enough to understand those references. :). Then again, I'm constantly freaked that my office girl was born in 1982!

vperl
07-24-09, 11:31 PM
Concerning "Black Box and the V "

Well there is another tatle tail in the V......

I am sure many know, but no one has mentioned.....

RWFJR
07-24-09, 11:33 PM
Concerning "Black Box and the V "

Well there is another tatle tail in the V......

I am sure many know, but no one has mentioned.....

And that might be?

vperl
07-24-09, 11:41 PM
And that might be?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^66

Well, not being one to be a know it all, and a cosmic know it all.....

I'd like some one to tell me... I would be shocked if no one knew this obvious answer, I can hear it now....

" Yea, we all knew about that..."

" we talked about that last thread"


So, I the just want to find out why no one has mentioned the answer before ?

MReiland
07-25-09, 08:35 AM
We may be worrying about this stuff too much. If it is flashed to stock and there is really no trace that it was tuned, then why worry? Just bring it in, play stupid, end of story. Hopefully our cars are built tough enough to handle a bit more boost.

The question of the day is what is 'a bit' more boost? If they design it for 1-2 psi over what the car would allow in even extreme circumstances (stock) then someone adds in 2, or 5, or 10 more psi over that, where do you draw the line for durability and cost? I don't know the answer but you don't see everything in the driveline sized for 1000 H.P. for many reasons.

Nutz
07-25-09, 04:06 PM
......

vperl
07-25-09, 08:10 PM
......

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&7


Well, well correct sir.
Since you know tell the nice people what is ratted out by our friendly

on location tattle tail... just what information is ratted out W/O your permission to authorities

Nutz
07-26-09, 04:03 AM
"Good evening sir, it appears that your vehicle has deployed all airbags after turn 3 and coincidentally suffered an unexpected termination of warranty, would you like me to contact the Safety Safari?" :yawn:
















&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

^YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

vperl
07-26-09, 07:40 AM
That you were going 165mph, and missed the turn 3 exit w. bound... when they call the 911 they report all this information including speed to the dispatcher at the 911 center, and what ever else it tattles about..
**smirk

ewill3rd
07-26-09, 09:42 AM
Some of you guys have your tin foil hats on a bit too tight.

Airbag systems have been standard equipment since 2004, they have been available since about 1974. Every air bag module that I know of had data recording capability in the event of a deployment so they could gather crash data to IMPROVE YOUR CHANCES OF SURVIVING A COLLISION.
How dare those jerks do that!

OnStar doesn't actively monitor you and report your whereabouts to anyone. When you are in an accident or your car is stolen OnStar contacts your vehicle and identifies your car's location for police and emergency personnel. Those thoughtless jerks!!
One case of the FBI using it to "spy" on a known criminal hardly constitutes drastic measures on everyone's part to protect themselves from big brother.

Reprogramming a computer to make the car go faster or perform differently is a violation of Federal Emissions Laws because you are altering the vehicle from a tested configuration. It isn't the way the manufacturer designed it and you have altered it's operating characteristics. If something happens due to the alteration it seems pretty clear to me that the manufacturer should be able to deny warranty claims since the car isn't what they sold you any more. Of course it would be on a related failure. Programming the ECM is obviously not going to affect the radio.

The calibration police don't give a crap about how many times you program a PCM, or what the last "tune" was, there is no way to track that.
The ONLY thing we can do is verify that the calibrations in the computer AT THE TIME OF SERVICE match what is supposed to be in the car, that's all.
No recording, no logging, no crazy data gathering, spying, or other covert BS.

I should really stop reading these X-files threads... :lol:

vperl
07-26-09, 10:03 AM
My hat does fit tight. However, having owned several GM vehicles with OnStar, I know for a fact what they have told the 911 operator..... speed at time of impact is just one event that I heard being passed from the OnStar operator to the 911 center. they even gave the 911 center a reference number.....

I agree stop reading. Point lost to those that do not read, never mentioned any ongoing tracking of anything, Did use the word "report" and "tattletale" you as owner or driver did not ask the OnStar folks to hand over any speed at time of accident or anything else.. just call the ambulance & cops.... not to pass on anything that involved that actual event at that time....

never mentioned any on going spying, BTW..... maybe you ought to make your own hat, no you cannot have mine

radix
07-26-09, 07:37 PM
Did use the word "report" and "tattletale" you as owner or driver did not ask the OnStar folks to hand over any speed at time of accident or anything else.. just call the ambulance & cops.... not to pass on anything that involved that actual event at that time....



Your onstar contract says otherwise - and gee, even the O* radio spots have the operator stating the crash severity info like crash delta V to the EMS guys, so it is no secret.

And you can contact onstar and have your information and car removed from their system if you don't want the crash notification feature.

Don't you think it is fair to keep the rest of us safe by not having the EMS guys rushing to your aid through traffic - if only they had known that the airbag deployed at 165.... Not to mention the mop up crew deserves a heads up.

vperl
07-26-09, 07:55 PM
Actually. I am more worried about those that do not have a nice hat like me.

sts guys have feather in their hat stuck into the mink head band, sharp bunch.

undertaker
07-27-09, 04:25 PM
Some of you guys have your tin foil hats on a bit too tight.

Airbag systems have been standard equipment since 2004, they have been available since about 1974. Every air bag module that I know of had data recording capability in the event of a deployment so they could gather crash data to IMPROVE YOUR CHANCES OF SURVIVING A COLLISION.
How dare those jerks do that!

OnStar doesn't actively monitor you and report your whereabouts to anyone. When you are in an accident or your car is stolen OnStar contacts your vehicle and identifies your car's location for police and emergency personnel. Those thoughtless jerks!!
One case of the FBI using it to "spy" on a known criminal hardly constitutes drastic measures on everyone's part to protect themselves from big brother.

Reprogramming a computer to make the car go faster or perform differently is a violation of Federal Emissions Laws because you are altering the vehicle from a tested configuration. It isn't the way the manufacturer designed it and you have altered it's operating characteristics. If something happens due to the alteration it seems pretty clear to me that the manufacturer should be able to deny warranty claims since the car isn't what they sold you any more. Of course it would be on a related failure. Programming the ECM is obviously not going to affect the radio.

The calibration police don't give a crap about how many times you program a PCM, or what the last "tune" was, there is no way to track that.
The ONLY thing we can do is verify that the calibrations in the computer AT THE TIME OF SERVICE match what is supposed to be in the car, that's all.
No recording, no logging, no crazy data gathering, spying, or other covert BS.

I should really stop reading these X-files threads... :lol:


I was told dealers can access what operating system the vehicle is running on, as well as start cycles since the last flash (so if you have 5-10 start cycles and 20K miles things just don't exactly add up)

also in regards to black boxes, they're usually only downloaded for fatals, and most OBD II cars (96 and newer) have information on the topic.

As for onstar telling the speed and severity? well in this accident yesterday

http://www.lohud.com/

the call came in from driver's by as a pdaa (property damage auto accident) then got upped to piaa (personal injury auto accident) and then fatal all by driver's by (there were a number of ejections) Onstar wasn't one of those calls and there was no data given via onstar. Of course you can guarantee data will be downloaded asap (and if available in the case of teh burned vehicle) I was talking with the person in charge of recontruction this morning.

vperl
07-28-09, 02:25 AM
Put lipstick on the "Black Box & OnStar " they are still tattles for what ever reason.

Lipstick is a god thing.....