: Fabricated Torque Strut for the 2000+ Northstar



Ranger
07-20-09, 11:21 PM
I made an attempt an fabricating one today. I used a 13" long piece of 3/4" thin walled conduit. Flatten 4" and bend a 90 at the end. Drill through the strut and the radiator brace (be careful of the radiator hose on the other side). I think I used a 3/8" drill and a 3/8" round headed, square shanked carriage bolt. The round head will prevent any abrasion of the radiator hose should they come in contact as they are pretty close (better safe than sorry). On the other end, drill through the engine lift bracket and the strut at the same time. Insert a screw or bolt and nut it from beneath.

Picture four shows an existing threaded bolt hole in the head that I am going to try to fabricate another one for on the passenger side tomorrow.

2000+ Seville application is slightly different and are the first 2 pics on the top row (drivers side and passengers side respectively). Last one and second row are for the 2000+ Deville application.

97EldoCoupe
07-21-09, 01:38 AM
This is the idea. If that radiator crossbrace flexes, you can definitely see why these cars need the dog bones. That's a lot of power to harness with one stud/mount like GM originally designed.

Ranger we're on the right track now.

Ranger
07-21-09, 09:40 PM
PART 2
Here is the right side strut and the finished product all back together. With both in place there is MUCH less engine movement. It is not rock solid and the crossbrace still flexes a bit even though the right strut is nearer the end of the crossbrace and has more support, but it IS a BIG improvement and flex is minimal.

Same dimensions on the strut as above. I used a 2" long 1" diameter steel rod as a stand off. Drilled through with a 25/64th drill bit. Did this on a lathe. Then used a 3/4" end mill to mill a U in the end of the strut. I then placed the U'd end of the strut on the stand off and beat on it to open up the two fingers of the U (do this before you flatten and bend it). Then I brazed the strut to the standoff (you could weld if you wish). A trip to the hardware store provided the 3" long smooth shanked M10x1.5 bolt (the smooth shank is a perfect slip fit to the 25/64th hole with no play). What is not shown in the picture is the missing radiator support brace. You will find when it is installed under the torque strut that the bolt head is under the flattened end of the torque strut and you will need to cut a notch in the flattened end of the strut. You will also need to cut two reliefs in the black plastic radiator cover to compensate for the struts.

97EldoCoupe
07-21-09, 11:07 PM
Ranger that looks pretty good- the original driver's side torque strut was mounted to the bracket where the fuel rail is fastened on, just like where you fastened it in the photo. The passenger side was bolted across the face of the head with three bolts. There won't be any problem with too much stress on the head, don't worry about that.

Perfect, Ranger. Head bolt problem solved, now the motor mount problem is almost solved, we're going great!

AJ's mount might still do the job- I'd like to hear more about his mounts. But the torque strut idea is the answer.

I'm scrapping a 2001 Deville (bronze/black interior)- unfortunately I need the engine from that car before I can use it as a mock-up, so I'll either need to re-install a junk engine or talk to a future customer about doing some testing on the Deville body.

Ranger
07-21-09, 11:35 PM
I agree Jake. I think the struts are far more important than the mounts. Good to hear you say there should not be a problem with excessive force on the head. I appreciate the feedback. It still rears back, but not near as much. Over all I am happy that I have minimized the movement and have probably lengthened the motor mount life. Maybe even prevented the need for replacement. I think I recall someone mentioning that the movement causes A/C line flexing and eventual failure at the manifold, so maybe I have I have fended off two potential problems. I probably should paint them someday so they look better, but right now it is function before beauty.

97EldoCoupe
07-22-09, 05:25 AM
The only thing I would be concerned about is the constant flexing on the radiator crossbrace. If it's only a little bit, it will handle it. But too much and the radiator might move back and forth. If it does that I'd be a little worried about the end tanks cracking and hoses chaffing. I don't think it would be an issue but it wouldn't hurt to monitor this for a bit.

Ranger
07-22-09, 11:10 AM
Not too much movement, but I'll take another look and even measure it. The problem is that I can't monitor it at WOT. Only parked and brake torqued at 2000 RPM.

Submariner409
07-22-09, 06:08 PM
Ranger and I have been bantering back and forth over this engine torque control thing. Some time ago I postulated that a cable snubber from the cradle to the top of the front motor mount bracket would accomplish torque control, similar to using chain with a tad of slack to snub the twist of a longitudinal engine. (Think: older Camaros and Chevelle-type platforms.)

There's a company named Norseman that makes a whole line of self-installed cable terminals, primarily designed for sailboat mast rigging, which requires some incredible load control. With a bit of trial and error and some 3/16" or 5/32" s/s 7x19 wire rope (aircraft cable) and a couple of proper end fittings you could make a snubber with 1/2" of slack, enough to allow everyday engine vibration control, but when you stuck your foot in it the snubber tightens and anchors the engine. Who gives a hoot about a tad of transmitted vibration on a WOT ?

Someone else in here used a couple of turns of wire rope, around the mount bracket and cradle, to accomplish essentially the same thing. Cheap galvanized wire rope from the hardware store and a couple of bulldog clips and you're good to go.

Ranger
07-22-09, 06:41 PM
I will get her up on ramps and have a looks see soon. I like that idea. It would take some stress off of the crossbrace and maybe even negate the need for the struts.

Ranger
07-23-09, 05:26 PM
Well, I tried to measure the movement (flex) of the crossbrace, but it was to little to be able to measure standing in front of the car with a jittery wife behind the wheel trying to do the brake torque. :rolleyes: Anyway, I'd say it flexes 1/8", maybe 1/4".

kckranz
07-28-09, 09:40 AM
Ranger and I have been bantering back and forth over this engine torque control thing. Some time ago I postulated that a cable snubber from the cradle to the top of the front motor mount bracket would accomplish torque control, similar to using chain with a tad of slack to snub the twist of a longitudinal engine. (Think: older Camaros and Chevelle-type platforms.)

There's a company named Norseman that makes a whole line of self-installed cable terminals, primarily designed for sailboat mast rigging, which requires some incredible load control. With a bit of trial and error and some 3/16" or 5/32" s/s 7x19 wire rope (aircraft cable) and a couple of proper end fittings you could make a snubber with 1/2" of slack, enough to allow everyday engine vibration control, but when you stuck your foot in it the snubber tightens and anchors the engine. Who gives a hoot about a tad of transmitted vibration on a WOT ?

Someone else in here used a couple of turns of wire rope, around the mount bracket and cradle, to accomplish essentially the same thing. Cheap galvanized wire rope from the hardware store and a couple of bulldog clips and you're good to go.

This makes sense but would it save wear and tear on the mount? Is it compression or expansion that causes the mount to give?

Submariner409
07-28-09, 01:44 PM
The mount, for all practical purposes, just sits there under normal driving conditions. Under passing power demands or WOT the mount stretches (lengthens) so a snubber restricts breaking the rubber band. Who gives a hoot about a little vibration less than 1% of operating time ???

Ranger
08-01-09, 10:51 PM
FWIW, I feel no vibration either at idle or WOT.

Ranger
08-05-09, 10:19 PM
Ranger and I have been bantering back and forth over this engine torque control thing. Some time ago I postulated that a cable snubber from the cradle to the top of the front motor mount bracket would accomplish torque control, similar to using chain with a tad of slack to snub the twist of a longitudinal engine. (Think: older Camaros and Chevelle-type platforms.)

There's a company named Norseman that makes a whole line of self-installed cable terminals, primarily designed for sailboat mast rigging, which requires some incredible load control. With a bit of trial and error and some 3/16" or 5/32" s/s 7x19 wire rope (aircraft cable) and a couple of proper end fittings you could make a snubber with 1/2" of slack, enough to allow everyday engine vibration control, but when you stuck your foot in it the snubber tightens and anchors the engine. Who gives a hoot about a tad of transmitted vibration on a WOT ?

Someone else in here used a couple of turns of wire rope, around the mount bracket and cradle, to accomplish essentially the same thing. Cheap galvanized wire rope from the hardware store and a couple of bulldog clips and you're good to go.

Ain't gonna work Sub. At least not on the Deville. I did a coolant change today and dropped the splash shield to make it easier. I got a look at the mount. Mine DOES have the heat shield. There are brake pipes running along the cradle and any chain or steel rope would have to go over them and would crush them. There is another on the back side. I think that may have been an A/C line. Unless your Seville is different, torque struts seem to be the only way to go.

ibm4mad
09-27-09, 03:09 AM
Ranger, from what I remember the last time I did this, the brake lines are run parallel to the engine cradle and are secured to the cradle with one or maybe multiple plastic clips. However, there is a gap, perhaps a quarter of an inch, between the cradle itself and the brake lines (such gap being created by the plastic spacers/fasteners). What if you wrap the cable around the cradle behind the brake lines instead of over them? In other words, thread the cable through the space between the brake lines and the cradle itself.

One user suggested wrapping the cable around the motor mount bracket. This is what the first diagram depicts. Another possibility, which seems like it may be a better way to really make sure that the mount doesn't become overloaded, is to wrap a cable around the engine cradle, and then secure the free end of the cable to one of the bolts that secures the motor mount bracket to the cylinder head -- thus creating a direct tether between the engine, and the subframe.

I forget who came up with this idea, but a user suggested using tailgate cable (which has eyelets on both ends) to accompish this. I think that you can thread the cable around the subframe (behind the brake lines), then run the loose end of the cable through an eyelet, to create a lasso almost, around the cradle. Then you take the free end and attach it through one of the bolts that secures the motor mount bracket to the cylinder head. This type of "tether" will almost certainly prevent the motor from kicking back too much. That way, when driving normally and idling there isn't any NVH (thanks to the hydraulic motor mount) but upon aggressive acceleration, that tether stops the engine from kicking back, saving the mount from stress.

Click the thumbnails to enlarge:

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/679/mountdiagram.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/mountdiagram.jpg/)

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7806/mountdiagram2.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/i/mountdiagram2.jpg/)

Krashed989
09-27-09, 07:25 AM
Well I've busted 2 motor mounts so far with my 94 eldo, much less of a problem than the 2000+ type of motor mount. However, what I'm planning on doing when I replace it again is to put a couple of large hose clamps around the new one (Easier to do with the older style because of it having 4 studs rather than 2).

Ranger
10-04-09, 10:25 PM
I'm not sure a hose clamp will withstand that pressure.

ibm4mad
10-04-09, 11:47 PM
Like anything, someone has to try that idea to see how it works. The hose clamp idea is only feasible for the pre-2000 models, which have a square-shaped front mount. The 2000+'s circular mount with very little flat surface area to attach a clamp would just cause any type of clamp to slip off.

The thing is, I think that a hose clamp (with pretty sharp metal edges to it) might backfire on you and actually cut into the rubber, causing the mount to break quicker.

Submariner409
10-05-09, 10:39 AM
I think where Ranger is going is that a hose clamp or two is nowhere near strong enough to handle the torque loads, for one thing............

Ranger
10-05-09, 12:21 PM
That is exactly where I was going. I can just imaging that clamp being torn loose at the screw joint at the first WOT. I just don't think it has the structural integrity to do the job. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

ryannel2003
10-05-09, 01:12 PM
I still can't believe Cadillac didn't put dog bones on cars putting this much power to the wheels. They realized this with the '06+DTS which goes back to the older design with dog bones. Those cars are a whole lot smoother when shifting and barely have any motor movement.

tateos
10-05-09, 01:52 PM
Like anything, someone has to try that idea to see how it works. The hose clamp idea is only feasible for the pre-2000 models, which have a square-shaped front mount. The 2000+'s circular mount with very little flat surface area to attach a clamp would just cause any type of clamp to slip off.

The thing is, I think that a hose clamp (with pretty sharp metal edges to it) might backfire on you and actually cut into the rubber, causing the mount to break quicker.

As a previous poster showed in his diagrams, I think the best way is to wrap around the cradle and the steel BRACKET, not the MOUNT itself. Steel stranded cable should be able to handle the job.

Krashed989
10-05-09, 02:03 PM
As a previous poster showed in his diagrams, I think the best way is to wrap around the cradle and the steel BRACKET, not the MOUNT itself. Steel stranded cable should be able to handle the job.
I think he was referring to what I had mentioned about wrapping a couple of hose clamps around my motor mount, which is the older style. I think he's probably right about it cutting into the mount if I did that. I would have to think of a way around that. I'm a perfectionist, and the cable thing would definitely not be perfection in my opinion. It has to function properly and be aesthetically pleasing. I don't want to put my car on the hoist and have my fellow mechanics say "WTF is that???" lol

Submariner409
10-05-09, 02:18 PM
Krashed, Hie thee on down to your local sailboat rigging shop, take a look at some of the s/s wire rope work, and tell me that it's anything but efficient and good-looking (plus being hellishly strong).

Wire rope (aircraft control cable) and chain have been used for just what this thread is all about since before I was born.

Ranger
10-05-09, 06:17 PM
I think he was referring to what I had mentioned about wrapping a couple of hose clamps around my motor mount, which is the older style. I think he's probably right about it cutting into the mount if I did that. I would have to think of a way around that. I'm a perfectionist, and the cable thing would definitely not be perfection in my opinion. It has to function properly and be aesthetically pleasing. I don't want to put my car on the hoist and have my fellow mechanics say "WTF is that???" lol
My torque struts fill both bills Krashed. Maybe I'm partial, but they are easy to make, easy on the eye, and quite functional. Ask anyone who was at the Chicago meet. We did a side by side evaluation with a 2000 RPM brake torque with my car and gdwriters. The difference in engine movement was amazing. Mine was basically nonexistent.

Submariner409
10-05-09, 07:03 PM
..................and I went right by the fact that Ranger's torque strut idea is the best of all fixes. I'll be there this Fall..........all-thread, L-brackets and all.

ltdltc
10-06-09, 07:06 AM
I'm still a little new to N* game so I'm a little confused on this engine mount deal.

So are 2006+ like mine:

http://a.imagehost.org/0301/20_7.jpg

Problem free? I only see that one on the left.

However on 2000-2005 Devilles I don't see any upper mounts.

My Eldorado has these:

http://a.imagehost.org/0410/30.jpg

Both of the arm's bushings are shot. And I'm quite sure they need to be replaced.

tateos
10-06-09, 01:35 PM
On the Eldo, you replace the entire strut, not just the bushings, very cheap at Rock Auto - I think maybe less than $20

Ranger
10-06-09, 01:35 PM
GM quit using the torque struts around '98 or '99. I think they went back to them in '05 or '06. Not sure why, but it was not a good idea. That's why I fabricated a set.

ryannel2003
10-06-09, 07:24 PM
GM first quit using the dogbones on the 5th Generation 1998 Seville. I'm sure this was to save costs over the previous generation. Then the Deville followed suit in 2000 when it switched over to the Seville's G-body based K platform and it stayed like that until 2006 when GM switched over to the DTS name and went back to the old dogbones. The Eldorado always had dogbones, even after the 2000 revision that went to COP ignition. I wonder though did any G-bodies use dogbones? The G-body platform included the Aurora, and was the basis for the '98+ Seville and '00-'05 Deville though both of those use the designation K-body.

It also makes me wonder if the elimination of dogbones led to quite a few of the suspension problems these cars suffered from. I'm sure it didn't help, but then again I don't think it caused it because a few of the '06+ DTS's i've driven still shake.

ibm4mad
10-09-09, 12:21 AM
My torque struts fill both bills Krashed. Maybe I'm partial, but they are easy to make, easy on the eye, and quite functional. Ask anyone who was at the Chicago meet. We did a side by side evaluation with a 2000 RPM brake torque with my car and gdwriters. The difference in engine movement was amazing. Mine was basically nonexistent.

I like this fabricated strut idea better than the cable idea. It has the added advantage of not requiring anybody to remove their splash shield or go below the car to rig up a cable. Could you tell us what exactly you used to make these and how you did it? It looks from the pictures that some type of pipe was cut and bent, but dimensions, material specs, etc would be helpful.

Ranger
10-09-09, 01:40 PM
It was all done on the fly. The pipe was 3/4" conduit that I had lying around. Both sides are 13". It fits almost perfectly into the lift bracket on the drivers sdie. Drill completely through. Drill size is irrelevant. Just drop a long screw through and put a nut on the bottom. Now you can mark the conduit for where it need to be bent (12"). Take it off and put it in a vice and flatten 4". Then bend a 1" tab at a 90 degree angle. Now you'll have to drill through the front support. Be careful as the radiator hose in on the inside. I realized that the hose would be rubbing on the bolt head and I did not like that so I use a round headed carriage bolt with a square shank. As the nut drew it in the shank turned the round hole square and locked the bolt from turning. I think I might have bent the dip stick tube over a 1/4" or so.

Passengers side was similar except that I had to make that standoff spacer out of a 1" dia. steel bar stock. I measured the length I needed (2"). Then went to the hardware store and bought the correct size and length metric bolt I needed (I think it was 10 X 1.5). The bolt needs to be about 3" long. I measured the bolt diameter and drilled through the spacer with as close a drill size as possible (25/64") to elevate any play. Then I used a 3/4" end mill to mill a U in the end of the conduit. You could do that with a saw and file or a Dremel. It wasn't a real good fit so I beat the conduit into submission as it straddled the spacer. Then simply brazed (or weld) it on as the picture shows. There is a bit of a problem with the other end in that it interferes with the radiator hold down bracket. Since it does not show, I simply removed the bracket, drilled through, cut a slit in the bracket lip and flattened the lip on the radiator hold down bracket so it will fit over the top of the torque strut and remounted the bracket over the flattened conduit. It sits a little uneven, but it's functionality has not been compromised and is under the cover anyway. You will have to cut, mill or file a clearance notch in the flattened pipe to reinstall the radiator bracket mounting bolt. All in all it is pretty straight forward. Just measure cut and bend. The hardest part is making the spacer, but you could probably us a piece of black pipe or such and cut to length. A little Yankee ingenuity always helps. If you do not have any welding capability, you'll need to find a friend or a shop. Can't imagine a shop would charge much if anything at all. Hope that gives you some incite. Let me know if you have anymore questions.

K@ddiD@ddi
11-18-10, 12:28 PM
I know im a bit late on this topic but i decided to make one on the fly last night with some 1/4 in copper plate from work and it came out lookin almost like an aftermarket part, i will be making another one with a little more care and more dampening, let me know what you think!!

Ranger
11-18-10, 04:52 PM
Nice job. :thumbsup:

98eldo32v
11-19-10, 04:36 AM
"Both of the arm's bushings are shot. And I'm quite sure they need to be replaced."

In the situation pertaining to the Eldorados, I've noticed those "dog bones" wear out from the torque loads. Can you get the "dog bones" or the mounts themselves in polyurethane?

If you can, how much vibration will be actually felt inside the car?

98eldo32v
11-19-10, 04:47 AM
In the idea of fabricating a newer style torque strut, would it be hard to use a heim joint type set up such as something like this: http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn190/CalgaryJester/DSC_0020.jpg

You could then adjust it perfectly without too much measuring once you fabricated some brackets possibly.

Ranger
11-19-10, 12:30 PM
I don't know if polyurethane is available, but I doubt you'd feel any vibration. Mine are solid and I feel nothing.

The turn buckle set up you have pictured would certainly work, but seems to me to need a little more fabrication than needed to mount. There is really no need for adjustment once measured and installed.

Your imagination is the only limiting factor on how to do it. I recall one guy who made a very nice set of arms that attached to the strut tower cross brace.

power007
01-12-12, 01:16 PM
PLEASE See this topic
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/212155-how-bypass-metal-coolant-pipe-when.html

Submariner409
01-12-12, 02:44 PM
??? Heater piping in a torque strut thread ??? ......... and some have adapted the earlier dog bones shown in the first pictures, but they will NOT fit many later models without some real machine work.

I have a set of "Ranger's Rods" installed - for 6 months now - and am a happy camper. (And the 2002 Seville radiator cross brace does not flex .001".)

vincentm
01-13-12, 05:02 PM
I want a set of these

Submariner409
01-13-12, 08:18 PM
I want a set of these

The driver's side is merely measured, bent, flattened, drilled electrical conduit. The passenger side uses a machined standoff boss welded or brazed into a curved cutout on the end of the conduit - depending on the car body, the passenger side has a couple of mounting options.

Doesn't your ETC have dog bones ?

This is from a 2002 Seville, but the idea holds.........as always, measure twice, cut once.

vincentm
01-13-12, 09:38 PM
My dog bones are worn and have alot of play

ThumperPup
01-14-12, 12:10 PM
ok i guess im still a bit confused are these just to re-leave stress to allow the motor mounts to last longer without wory of wear ?
or are these so you don't have to replace alreayd worn motor mounts ?

Ranger
01-14-12, 12:16 PM
ok i guess im still a bit confused are these just to re-leave stress to allow the motor mounts to last longer without wory of wear ?
Yes. They are to hold the engine in place on acceleration and prevent excessive stress on the front mount and prevent failure.

Submariner409
01-14-12, 12:31 PM
My dog bones are worn and have alot of play

Cheaper and quicker to get a new pair (bones only) from Chris at Rippy.

ThumperPup
01-14-12, 05:08 PM
Yes. They are to hold the engine in place on acceleration and prevent excessive stress on the front mount and prevent failure.

During acceleration
does it make the Pick up and go feel different ?
like does it actualy affect the way it feels when you stomp on the gas without the struts and then with them ?

Submariner409
01-14-12, 06:57 PM
No. If you drive the car hard and/or on twisty roads the struts seem to make the front end "tighter" but they have no real effect on engine power, power transmission, or the way the gas pedal "feels". Your SLS would never know the difference.

MoistCabbage
07-15-13, 07:30 PM
:welcome:

Answered in your duplicate thread in the Deville forum. Please don't post multiple times on the same subject.

Submariner409
07-15-13, 08:49 PM
Fixed !

Chuckj19
12-06-13, 08:06 AM
Ranger im not very mechanically inclined but how much would one charge to fabricate a set of "Ranger Rods"?

Ranger
12-06-13, 11:39 AM
Ranger's Rods is out of business. It was getting to be a full time job and not worth what I was charging, not to mention the variables between Deville & Seville.

vincentm
12-06-13, 01:40 PM
You know you want to make some for me though, c'mon Ranger. :thumbsup: