: FactoryFast's 2009 Auto Draft 09 V vs 07 M5
07-19-09, 08:42 PM
Well the V1 CTS V is officially out of warranty as of late June. Since then, my shifter knob ring has broken(installed months ago under warranty) and now something came loose in the driver side front end. Other than the power this car was in need of refinement and better quality control.
Enter 2009 fiscal year, my best one yet...and by alot. Having aquired the certificates, the raise came shortly after, and now i have nothing but monthy bills to pay...I can even manage to save large sums of money in a relatively short period of time.
Ive tried a good amount of hobbies and nothing can compare to my obsession with cars. I have no intention of buying a house anytime soon until I know how far im going with my career and where I will wind up geographically.
So the plan is to get THE car. I have been comprimising and searching for the ultimate car...something that fits me perfect. As of Friday I narrowed down my search to the 2009 CTS V and the current body style M5.
I drove the 09 V first. Black on Black with the 6spd manual. The shifting is much better than the V1, more crisp and precise. I did however, notice the clicking noise upon putting the clutch pedal to the floor and the more I drove it, the more I noticed it. The Exhaust is throaty. I did not hear the supercharger as much as I thought I would...then again I didnt bring it all the way out to redline with only 60 miles on her. That 6.2L supercharged poweplant made my girlfriend thrash around in between gears...a sure sign of a wicked fast ride. I was diapponted that the Sunroof did not open up all the way and the cloth cover is somewhat perforated, allowing tiny bits of light in. I did not like that. the recaro seat option was present in this vehicle and did not suit me. I tend to sit very wide and the bolsters would definitely wind up acting up my sciatica (sp?). On the flip side the non-recaros have no support whatsoever, meaning Ill have to brace/hold myself in the turns much like I do now with the 05 CTS V. So there is no perfect seat available for me here. The idle is nuce and smooth and so is Shutdown unlike my current V. The nav is much easier to use and I like the touchscreen better than the guaranteed to fade buttons on my current car. I did not like the fingerprints on the screen though. I can see that bothering me down the line.
Overall there is a vast improvement from the V1 to the V2.
Now, for the BMW. I know most of you guys wont want to hear it so ill keep it brief. I love this car. It has everything I want and it fits me like a glove. How anybody compares these two cars is beyond me. The caddy is lightyears away from being a better drivers car. Yea, the M is not as fast but its fast enough. I never plan to track or drag cars anymore. Ill enjoy the occasional light to light with a friend but nothing competitive. The seats are amazing, and the exhasut note is so unique. I really felt like I was driving a rich mans car. BMW shifting is pure ecstacy when compared to anything else I have tried. The iDrive is thought out for the engineer like me. I can see how people find it complicated. Its definitely packed with features and I personally love it. I enjoy not having a touchscreen which tends to collect fingerprints. The interior is simple yet purposeful with plenty of spots to put stuff. I could go on and on...
I also have to mention that the guy who appriased my car damaged a motor mount. A soon as i shifted I could feel that clunkyness resurface. Less than 5K it took to get that feeling back. What a crappy car. So im basically done with domestic cars. They really are crap. Im going to a BMW as soon as they approve me, lets hope thier customer care is as good as it has been. I hear thats the only issue.
07-19-09, 09:12 PM
i'm not exactly sure I understand the logic of being out of warranty since an 07 would be out of warranty next year and if you think repairs on a GM car are bad... you're really going to love spending that "disposable income" on all of the things that go wrong in that car. learned that from an 02 M3. but if you're ever in the Cincinnati area... feel free to check out my tail lights anytime LOL
07-19-09, 10:09 PM
lol i hope you have warranty. Paying off warranty work for a bmw is like owning an exotic...
07-19-09, 10:11 PM
Sorry you didn't like the V, I guess you can't please everyone. I sure don't think our cars are crap either, my neighbor is a big BMW only fan and had the previous generation M5, had to replace both MAF's and dropped the entire drive shaft after a U-Joint broke. The cost for repairs was staggering on the parts and labor. Sold it and switched to a 545i with less problems so far. Please don't think that BWM, MB, even Lexus (or Jaguar!!! for that matter) high performace sedans are never going to break.
Good luck with which ever sedan you choose, they are all nice.
07-19-09, 10:28 PM
I hate to burst your bubble as you seem to be caught up in the euphoria of BMW. But, I will tell you as a BMW owner for many years, that the grass is not much greener on the other side and you are going to be enlightened and the euphoria will be gone once you start maintaining this vehicle. I will agree that the driving experience is unique, but it's the components on these vehichles that are not up to par and are a major contributor to the cost of ownership. My radiator on my 7 series blew at 45K and the problems appear endless as you repair one component only to have another break weeks later. So, while it is true that many foreign manufacturers build a better product than their domestic counterparts; it will not guarantee that you will be treated better. And if you are expecting to come out better, then BMW choice will not be the best selection.
07-19-09, 10:49 PM
This thread is going to help me make my final decision...which could be as far out as October. Right now im getting into an M.
I hear about all kinds of problems from all dealerships. Everyone has had thier own nightmare im sure. As it stands right now i would have to make sure im 100% covered on the expensive parts for the duration of the loan. This would be so no matter what car I drive. I can only image what it would cost to have even a simple repair performed by BMW without coverage. So far I have been lucky but should the repair exceed my $500 cant I go to my car insurance carrier and file a claim under my comprehensive?
What really gets me is the taillights comment lol. I dont want to loose on that fateful night when i have a parkway run in with a V2. Its just the fit and feel in the cockpit of the M5...its perfect for me and my everyday driving. The way the shifting feels sells me every time I think about it. The seats feel perfectly supportive, the headliner is awesome...im not so sure I care about getting beat on that one night if i get to have the feel of M power on a daily basis...
The M was much easier to drive hard because of the significantly lower torque. The M is designed to do more with the less. The V just throws in the big numbers and ultimately prevails. I like the angry styling of the V. I love how both cars can just lay down smooth strips of rubber unlike my current V1. I ruled out an RS4 specifically for this reason. I want to be able to do a burnout here and there.
Im being tortured with the large monthly payment im going to wind up with no matter which car I select. Im not wealthy, just a union engineer with no real bills. Im nervous about taking on a payment twice the size of my current one but it seems like you gotta have a high car payment to own a serious machine. It is my life goal to own the most serious car I can afford. I can swing it with my new job without counting the overtime but its gonna be tight. The OT has always been there even in this tight economy. I hear alot of guy talk about how my field is "recession proof", especially with the properties I work in. Ive crunched the numbers and they look OK. If I hold out till October I should easily ill have another 10K to put towards this venture but its really funny how little 10K affects the payment. Im better off holding on to it and keep it liquid just in case lol...
Either way, Im not even 30, I have no college diploma, and the fact im even considering either of the cars...its a damn blessing. Some 15yr old kid hanging out at Quick Check last night was like " ill never afford a car like that, most ill be able to afford is like 20K"...(refering to my 05 V) lol, its crazy how someone so young is so brainwashed already...he has his whole life ahead of him. granted hangin out at quick check isnt gonna get you to the head of the class but damn...it was sad.
07-19-09, 11:00 PM
Initally I was totally caught up in this "BMW euphoria" phenomenon you speak of. When I arrived at the dealership they were washing the car for me...we wer talking for liek 10 minutes and went out for the drive. It was a very pleasant and non pressing environment. They are confident in thier product.
I went to cadillac, had to talk to the salesmen a few times to get him to believe I was a serious buyer, who then talked to the sales manager, then I came back the next day with my girl for the test drive...When I arrived nobody was available for the test drive and the car was still in the showroom, I went out for lunch, then came back to the dealership and waited 20 minutes for cars to be moved out of the showroom. Then I went for the drive.
After thinking about it, this BMW "maintenance program" is BS. It basically covers oil changes because no way your going through a clutch, breaks, belts or hoses within 50K....and if the clutch, belt or hose went within that time it would be warranty anyway right? You still gotta buy tires which are definitley a nut...but it definitley pumps up that euphoria you speak of and im begining to see a little more clear.
07-20-09, 01:35 AM
If you are not rich, be really careful with the M5. Even with $10,000 off, which is not hard to get these days, it's still $85K plus tax. The resale of the current generation M5 has been terrible, and even year old ones can be had for the low $60s. That's a big hit for one year. The only advantage to a 2010 M5 is it's vastly improved i-drive interface, but it'll cost you. The V is a much better buy, for sure, and the payments will be much lower. If you are still sold on the BMW, please consider a used one; it makes the most sense for you IMO.
By the way, did you try every adjustment on the Recaros, such as the lower and upper bolsters, or move the lumbar up and down, as well as in and out? I have a history of back and neck problems too, and properly adjusted the seat is one of the most comfortable I have ever used, better than that on my '93 M5. I also think many people try driving this car with the seat too close. With the seat AND the wheel back a bit, the comfort improves dramatically, as do the ergonomics, especially the shifter. Most people report needing to tilt the seat bottom up as much as possible at the front of the seat, get the rear down as much as possible, and then adjust the backrest and thigh support. Everyone who has sat in my seat so adjusted marvels at it's comfort.
I'm surprised you don't like the shifter on the V. I find it to be very positive and direct, and far less rubbery than current BMWs. The seating position does have to be a bit back to get the shifter in the right place, but then it's great, IMO.
As far as the BMW experience, well, I used to be a BMW diehard, when they used to make true drivers cars, and really catered to us. They used to have great ergonomics, with cockpit-like dashes and simple and direct controls, with pure feel. Not so anymore. Now you have to consult the manual to properly operate the turn signals, and just TRY to adjust suspension settings on the i-drive while driving and approaching a difficult corner. It's easy on the V, with two direct and accessible switches to control everything. Not so on the BMW. Plus, each generation is losing steering feel, and IMO the M5 understeers excessively, too. The BMW does use higher quality materials on the 5 series, as it should given the high price, but most of us are turned off by the interior styling, especially the dash. It's all a matter of taste, of course, but driver-centric it's not. As far as quality, well my handbuilt engine in my '93 M5 needed a rebuild after 24,000 miles due to an improperly bored block, so things do happen (plus the last generation M3 engines used to fail quite regularly if revved high, due to an optimistic redline to increase advertised horsepower).
The rest of the experience is down to the dealer. There are great and terrible dealers for both marques. Here BMW does have an advantage, with a performance heritage and experienced sales people that are used to high performance cars. Many Cadillac sales people, while well meaning, usually don't know all the performance features of the car, much less how to switch the suspension or activate competition mode. Plus, they rarely have any high performance driver training, and many can't even drive a stick. Each dealership really should have a V specialist or two. I guarantee if you went to visit Scott in Michigan or Tony in Florida you would have a different impression. If I was treated like you were I don't think I'd go back.
Good luck on your decision and purchase.
07-20-09, 03:15 AM
I didnt know you could control the lower bolsters. Maybe I need to go back and play with the seat a little bit moAr. I tend to get excited when im test driving and I dont check out everything. I wrote off those seats the second I got in them...maybe I should go back and play a bit.
I didnt mess with any suspension settings. Im clueless in that area. Both cars felt great in that respect.
I agree the interior of the BMW is kinda ho hum. I also agree there should be at least 50 more ft/lb of torque in the M5 to help that understeer.
07-20-09, 06:16 AM
To feel the difference in the suspension on the V I had to do the following:
Drive with the mag ride in normal mode, just start the car and drive. Find a road you can go 30-40 on with ruts and elevation changes, i.e. small bumps. Now hit the freeway that has bridges with expansion joints, drive over them and concentrate on the feel as you roll over those bumps, cracks etc. Do this for a little while.
Now, hit the magride once, goes from touring to sport, says so on the DIC (driver information center)
Go back to those same roads and concentrate, you will feel it! The ride is more pronounced, more solid. I liked that feel, more than how the BMW felt, the BMW felt smooth but not as well connected to the road as a V in sport mode.
Also I never felt unsafe in a turn in the V, even if its a negative camber, decreasing elevation, decreasing radius turn... Which I think is the worse type of turn you can get. The tail slides but doesn't give or snap like other cars I've driven. The V hasn't understeered on me either, even with its massive torque and horsepower screaming that it should. The BMW slogan of the ultimate driving machine may fit, but the V, in my opinion deserves that slogan also.
If this is any consolation, my wife will not allow me to buy a vehicle she doesn't approve of (yes I know, why the F@$% should she care about my car) well she has to ride and drive my car sometimes, same goes with me for hers. She only likes imports.....German at that, something about her time spent in germany as a student ambassador for a few years. Either way she is tough on American cars, her only compromise is that she went Lexus because Germans don't make hybrids and she will not own or drive a diesel. So, she was good and ready for me to spend 95K on an M5, we both make bank so cost was a concern but not an overly influential concern. She even test drove the vehicles before I did......
In the end she looked at everything objectively, ride, comfort, reliability, repairs, options etc etc etc. She gave the nod to the V, everytime we drive together in it I can't believe she said it was okay for me to get the V. I ask her all the time, is it okay that we got the V and not the IS-F or M5 (IS-F because its Lexus and she has a RX400H and we put >100k on it in less than 3 years (it was brand new)...we drove ALOT after I got my masters touring the country), she has said she likes it and is happy that we got it. She still can't believe how smooth it is and knows if someone else has monkey'd with the seat, she has he own setting and chastises me everytime saying its her position and doesn't want anyone to change it.
Moreover, she can't fathom how we are saving 35K on this car over the M5 and ~15K on the IS-F (lexus dealership wants 74.9 with no options, cha as if).
So if you want the M5, get it, it's a good car. However, I still can't wrap my head around 95K when something like the V is around for 60K, and the V is exceptional in its own right. Plus you can mod to your hearts content. Which I intend to do with the money saved.
07-20-09, 07:59 AM
This is a little review I wrote up on M5board. I came from an '06 M5 SMG.
The handling is not quite as crisp as the M5. The M5 has that certain feeling that you are more connected to the road and that the car is sportier. You will also notice that the car is very relaxed. The suspension is softer than the M5, the brake pedal, the gas, everything is a bit toned down.
Throw that sucker into a turn though and it will handle just as good as the M5 did. It's weird because driving around normal, it almost feels like a regular caddy would. Take it on turns, and the magnetic suspension instantly stiffens up. You have to get used to the car and understand that it will adjust to the way you drive. It is an excellent daily driver. Very, very refined.
The power is really nice. Instant torque down low (similiar in fashion to a 55k car), keeps pulling through top end. It doesn't rev high like the S85's, but you quickly get used to that.
The automatic transmission is also similiar to the AMG one. Not an SMG by any means, but tuning is supposed to be able to take care of that and make the shifts lightning quick. The tranny in auto mode is great. Of course if you go the manual route, the tranny is from the Z06. I loved the way that thing shifted.
Interior fit and finish so far is top notch. I like the interior better than the M5. Girls and guys both drool over the Recaro seats, black wood, popup nav (cheesy for some but I love it and most people think it's cool. I also like touch screens). Fake CF is fine, although not the real thing. Alcantara steering wheel is very cool, as well as the little lights and such. Panoramic roof is a very nice addition and I love how open the interior feels with the glass roof.
Exterior is mean as hell. I literally get 10x the amount of looks and attention in this car as I did with the M5. Not on the level of the Z06, but pretty close. Some people's jaws drop and the few car enthusiasts out there bow down lol. Girls seem to also love it, which is a big plus of course.
The speed for a stock car is just great though. Low end torque and high end horsepower. It's an LS3 with a supercharger, AKA detuned LS9. Of course it's a beast motor. You can also feel that this car is really tamed by GM though. The torque management and lower shift points are noticeable. Just makes me think how great it will be with a ecu and tranny tune. Modability is also there. Pulley kit, bolt-ons, and tune should make this a top notch street perform that is usable as a daily driver.
You have to test drive it though because the feeling is different than the M. You have a beautiful stable of cars, so if you like it, get it. If not, you already have some incredible speed demons with looks to kill.
Fully loaded it should come in around $70k. You can probably get a little bit of a discount. Superior Cadillac ships them around the US and gives like 7k off sticker price I believe.
Oh, and it's completely different than the Z06. It kind of gives me a Vette feeling at times (like how if you drive a C class, you still have that same Mercedes feeling as driving an SL), but it really is apples to oranges. The Z06 is still the ultimate sports car in my book. Raw and hardcore, yet refined enough to take a lady out to dinner and feel comfortable.
As far as bang for your buck: this one is it.
Well that's my review of the car so far. The main thing that I keep having to remind myself is that this isn't a $100k car! It's priced at M3/C63 levels but competes with M5/E63's (and subjectively beats them). I'm enjoying it very much and I hope to hold onto it for quite some time.
07-20-09, 12:33 PM
congratulations on being in a position to buy either car at such a young age--you have a great selection and can't go wrong.
I love the feel of a BMW- own one now and its not my first. It is hard to describe to folks who never drove one--just how well it feels and connects with the road. My 335Xi, with tune, downpipes and intercooler, is an 11second car-and with the AWD can be launched to a sub 4 second 0-60 even on a wet road. It is a magnificent car. It would be hard to feel more confident behind the wheel of any vehicle--especially if your talking year round including snow like I am here in Michigan.
I too narrowed my last purchase to the M5 and the V. Absolutely love them both-still do. Because -even though I love the feel of a well engineered BMW-I also like the feel of american muscle. (you can see from my sig-I just like a lot of cars)
In the end-I choose the V because it combined the two--that "german" feeling of great chassis tuning and handling, smooth acceleration, a cockpit that wraps around you with fine fit/finish--combined with raw torque and horsepower on tap with my right foot. Being one ofthe lucky ones who got to drive the V around Monticello road course--that just sealed the deal. Have never felt a car so easy to eat up the most severe twisties and then hit the straights and achieve incredible speed-effortlessly-then easily use the brakes to bring the car back into the tight turns. The V is magnificent. It also drives on long freeway cruises like a luxury car should.
In this case-to me-GM got it right. They built the perfect car for me and for what I think is a reasonble price.
But-hats off to BMW for the M5, M6. They too are magnificent cars and an true pleasure to drive. I think you will be VERY happy regardless.
Let us know how it turns out.;)
07-20-09, 03:16 PM
eh looks alone of the V can't be compared to the M5... the M5 looks like a grand prix or grand am to me. i never have been able to get past that to appreciate the car. looking forward to a makeover on the next gen
07-20-09, 06:31 PM
I got stuck doing a double shift last night... So after 16 hours and a horrible plant startup this morning, I decided to stop off at Cadillac to play with the Recaro seat a little more. I found the button that widened the bolster!!! Very cool but its still too much for me. I will have to go with the regular seat.
Stallion, I read your review last night on the BMW forum. I have been reading up on the M5 and there are quite a few scary threads there. Seems like that SMG wasnt so hot in 06 and people are having issues. Good thing im in the market for a 6spd...but no way ill be putting myself into an 06. 07 and up.
SlvrBullIT, my girlfriend is also a deciding factor. She likes the BMW though...so does my best friend. they both drive bimmers though so the bias is there.
This is not going to be an easy. I believe ill need to drive both cars again before i make my final decision.
07-20-09, 07:31 PM
Exactly, drive both..... Make a decision and be happy!!!! they are great cars, I enjoy mine...Thoroughly
The recaro seats are tricky. I take all the air out and then pump up the lower lumbar to ~75%.
Now get out of the car and get back in. The seat will feel different. That lower lumbar will adjust to your butt. I have it perfect now. It's hugging my hips. Don't have the side adjustment to tight. It affects how the lower lumbar pushes in the back.
After applying the w4m tune (yes i know you want to factory, but believe me that little tune should come from the factory), the car is an absolute pleasure to drive. I don't even have to go fast. The magnetic ride + the recaro seats are a perfect match. It's a simply joy driving at any speed. And all the high tech stuff is right there. USB drive, NAV, popup touch screen, DVD, ipod/iphone, bluetooth. All extra on BMW.
Beautiful interior. Quiet ride. Agressive exterior.
And what really amazes me, the parts are relatively cheap. A new automatic transmission? $2500. The supercharger is just $1500.
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/catalog/frameset.cfm you can explore all the parts in your car. With pictures and prices.
You can't go wrong with the CTS-V.
You're still young. Cars don't last forever, you'll get to experience lots of other cars in the future. Save a little money now...
07-20-09, 10:12 PM
SlvrBullIT, my girlfriend is also a deciding factor. She likes the BMW though...so does my best friend. they both drive bimmers though so the bias is there.
Rule #1 about buying a car: Don't buy a car for anyone but yourself. Buy it based on what you think, and what you want, and not on what you think someone else might think. Because that's an Unknown Unknown. :histeric:
Steel outlasts most relationships anyways. :D
07-20-09, 10:50 PM
Unknown Unknown. :histeric:
"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
"Do they speak English in What?" ROFL!
Sorry for the OT comment, I couldn't help myself.
FactoryFast... it is a difficult decision to put down 60K or more on a car. A few things I think you should keep in mind...
1. Coming from your V1, you are probably familiar with your local Caddy Dealer and the service, hopefully they have been good to you. If not then I am sure that will factor in your decision. Part of the issue GM has battled for years with few great dealers and many poor ones.... but as already stated, the grass is not always greener on the (BMW) side.
2. As you mentioned, $$$ is a big factor, going on that alone the V2 is a much better buy. At 25K USD less you can buy the car and pay for gas and insurance for years before even approaching the cost of the M5.
3. The M5 is long in the tooth, and with a new 5 series coming followed by a new M5, there is no doubt that your resale value will plumit much quicker. So if you plan to change cars in a few years then the V2 is probably a better option... if you plan to keep this car for 5+ years then resale value probably won't matter, both will be down the toilet :(
4. You need to throw out percieved quality advantages on the M5, both the M5 and V2 will break down and have problems. The main difference being the M5 will cost you more on parts and labor once warranty is done. If the V2 had a BMW Badge it would sell for 85K based on name alone.
I chose the V2 due to a combination of price/performance/looks and the fact that I see M3/M5/C63 every single day on the road, but no V2's.
No matter which car you choose it will be great... I'd take the V2... well I actually did :D
07-21-09, 09:26 AM
Just be careful with the warranty. My SMG was totally shot and got replaced. The 6 speed manual would be a wise choice.
There are also many computer issues, so just get the car thouroughly inspected if you do get a BMW.
The 2 cars really do the same thing, just by slightly different means. The BMW has the M5 pedigree. The CTS-V is a new kid on the block. The BMW offers superb handling and steering feel while the CTS-V gives you the Cadillac luxury with Corvette handling whenever you feel like it. The BMW revs to 8250 RPM's and needs to rip to redline to feel the power but the CTS-V is a monster throughout the whole powerband.
I had both and loved both. I'm glad I had the experience of the M5, but I am learning that I'm a big torque fan and I'd rather have something a little different. Everyone who is semi-successful and young is driving an M. I haven't even seen 1 CTS-V on the road, so I feel pretty exclusive. I also love the fact that for $2k you will blow the doors off an M5 with $10k invested in it.
07-21-09, 01:19 PM
rule #1 about buying a car: Don't buy a car for anyone but yourself. Buy it based on what you think, and what you want, and not on what you think someone else might think. Because that's an unknown unknown. :histeric:
Steel outlasts most relationships anyways. :d
07-21-09, 01:34 PM
I was in a similar position trying months ago trying to choose between: GT-R, M6, or S5. I really wanted a performance coupe. The S5 had a waiting list and the Audi dealerships could not give me a ship date; Nissan dealerships got crazy and wouldn't let the GT-R go for less than 20K over MSRP (95-97K).
BMW, well BMW lost their mind and decided to raise the stickers of all their vehicles with the M's being hard hit. M6 went up from base 95k to 119K, M5 85K to 105K (If you find one at 85K get it!), M3 55K to 65K (if you are lucky). I just could not justify the markup. The V was an afterthought, not having purchased domestic in well over 20 years. I was fortunate to walk into the Lindsay Dealership and have a good experience with them that prompted me to purchase a CTS for my wife and the V for myself. Every auto maker has at least one dealership out there that will sway you from one manufacturer to another. If BMW is better in your area than the Caddy dealer then go with them. Just remember you are buying for yourself and noone elses opinion matters but your own. Good luck!