: How many running a 160* thermostat?



Gary Wells
07-18-09, 07:55 PM
How many of you guys are running a 160* thermostat? Even under normal driving conditions my new '09 CTS-V runs about 200, which is a little hotter than I like a car to run. Any adverse conditions running a 160* other than possibly smog issues or something similar?
TIA/R: Gary Wells

RapidRob
07-18-09, 10:11 PM
^^ Probably not where you are located is my guess. I don't have the 160 termo installed, but I know from experience that when some guys were trying to hop up their 360 magnum Durango's a few years back, (and eliminate a tendency for that motor to ping with slightly advanced timing ..), with superchargers, etc., that when they installed cooler thermos, their heaters would not heat as well. No biggy if you live down south, but if you live where it gets cold, well, you get the picture ...

Rob

Gary Wells
07-18-09, 10:38 PM
Thanks for the info, Rob, I had never thought about that. I hate to see any car running as hot as mine does. Mine seems to park a little below 220* once warmed up, so I am guessing that it runs about 195*-200* even on the freeway doing 75 or so.

KatMcRat
07-18-09, 11:17 PM
I have been thinking the same thing.

But, I will say that my girl friend and I just did a 24 hour Vegas trip. Going up the Baker grade at 114 Thursday and Friday at a little faster then the posted speed limit. It never got any hotter then it does at 70 mph on a 80 day here.

Car ran like a top. I have close to 2k on it now.

Gary Wells
07-19-09, 07:10 AM
Kat: So how hot does yours run on a normal 70*-80* day there (here)?

KatMcRat
07-19-09, 01:45 PM
Kat: So how hot does yours run on a normal 70*-80* day there (here)?

200 most times I look.

The only thing stopping me from swapping it is I need a spare ECM. I don't want to take the chance of GM being able to tell the programing was changed with EFILive. If he has time Pat will probably log the runs on the Dyno though.

Gary Wells
07-19-09, 02:05 PM
The thermostat can't be changed out by itself resulting in cooler running temperatures, or it needs to be set to open earlier by the ecm?
How much is an extra ECM?

musclesbmf
07-19-09, 02:32 PM
Thermostat is mechanical so it opens when the temp reached. The tune is so the ecm doesn't throw a code because it thinks the car should be warmer. Jesse's handheld solution is great and he went to great lengths so that it doesn't leave a foot print when you return the tune to stock. I have the 160, and the car runs at or below 180*. It's perfect.

Mark

Gary Wells
07-19-09, 02:46 PM
Thermostat is mechanical so it opens when the temp reached. The tune is so the ecm doesn't throw a code because it thinks the car should be warmer. Jesse's handheld solution is great and he went to great lengths so that it doesn't leave a foot print when you return the tune to stock. I have the 160, and the car runs at or below 180*. It's perfect.
Mark
Mark:
About how much is the handheld, the thermostat, & Jesse's tune, and is this the same tune that controls the auto tranny mods?
TIA/R: Gary Wells

4DoorV
10-15-09, 11:12 AM
Does anyone know from experience, if you install a 160 thermostat without a tune, will the ecm throw a code?

Vrocks
10-15-09, 12:46 PM
Does anyone know from experience, if you install a 160 thermostat without a tune, will the ecm throw a code?
I still havent uploaded Jesse's tune (working with the guys at SCT) and everything appears to be fine. The temp stays around 180 when I'm on the highway but in stop and go it can get to around 200.

1-2-N-V
10-15-09, 01:11 PM
Does anyone know from experience, if you install a 160 thermostat without a tune, will the ecm throw a code?

Well even with a tune and the 160 i had this Check engine light on. code 1400. cold start issue. Still have it even though the dealer changed my T stat back because of a warranty issue in my heater core. Didn't say anything to them of course. The dealer even cleared the code for me but it comes back. He said that ere may be a bulletin to come out on this. Not sure but maybe others are experiencing this? So i was hoping Jesse would send my updated tune which i thought may take care of this.

I might as well just wait till the spring, get my pulley and other goodies installed and then see. Later

mike

Razorecko
10-15-09, 01:41 PM
Well even with a tune and the 160 i had this Check engine light on. code 1400. cold start issue. Still have it even though the dealer changed my T stat back because of a warranty issue in my heater core. Didn't say anything to them of course. The dealer even cleared the code for me but it comes back. He said that ere may be a bulletin to come out on this. Not sure but maybe others are experiencing this? So i was hoping Jesse would send my updated tune which i thought may take care of this.

I might as well just wait till the spring, get my pulley and other goodies installed and then see. Later

mike

I've said before this will start happening to more people with the 160 in the winter time. The 160 imho is too low for colder temps. The car will not reach operating temp fast enough and will throw the code. You don't want to block this out with a tune because if you run your engine cold like that you will score your cylinder walls. A 175' temp would be ideal. Anyone know what the ZR1 tstat temp is running at and if its compatible with ours ? That might work

lavaman
10-15-09, 03:25 PM
I've said before this will start happening to more people with the 160 in the winter time. The 160 imho is too low for colder temps. The car will not reach operating temp fast enough and will throw the code. You don't want to block this out with a tune because if you run your engine cold like that you will score your cylinder walls. A 175' temp would be ideal. Anyone know what the ZR1 tstat temp is running at and if its compatible with ours ? That might work

An engine running any of these t-stats (160, 175 or 195) will warm up at the same rate. None will be faster than the other. The difference is the operating temp (maintained temp) not the warm up time. Thermostats are mechanical valves (triggered by coolant temp alone... nothing to do with the ECM at all) that remain closed until a determined temperature is reached then they open. All of the above mentioned t-stats will be closed upon startup/warmup allowing the engine to warm at the same rate as the others. Only after the desired temp is reached do they open to allow coolant flow needed to maintain temp.

I am in the chicago area. It has been cold in the mornings lately (mid 30's at times,) I have the 160' t-stat in my car. I have run with Jesse's tunes and stock. No CEL to date. As winter sets in I may find that the climate control cannot produce enough heat. If that is the case I'll put the OE 195' t-stat back in till spring. It only takes about half an hour.

Razorecko
10-15-09, 07:39 PM
An engine running any of these t-stats (160, 175 or 195) will warm up at the same rate. None will be faster than the other. The difference is the operating temp (maintained temp) not the warm up time. Thermostats are mechanical valves (triggered by coolant temp alone... nothing to do with the ECM at all) that remain closed until a determined temperature is reached then they open. All of the above mentioned t-stats will be closed upon startup/warmup allowing the engine to warm at the same rate as the others. Only after the desired temp is reached do they open to allow coolant flow needed to maintain temp.

I am in the chicago area. It has been cold in the mornings lately (mid 30's at times,) I have the 160' t-stat in my car. I have run with Jesse's tunes and stock. No CEL to date. As winter sets in I may find that the climate control cannot produce enough heat. If that is the case I'll put the OE 195' t-stat back in till spring. It only takes about half an hour.

lol, cmon man. I'm from chicago too and you know that 30's isn't worth anything until a couple months from now when you'll be starting your V in -20, -30 if you dont have a winter vehicle

qictrk
10-15-09, 07:40 PM
I've been running a 160 for several months and have had no problems. It came with a tune from Jesse. You will get codes if you install and don't get a tune to go with it. Cars running great. Cecil...........:thumbsup:

musclesbmf
10-15-09, 07:46 PM
To back up Razor's point about this....
A general rule of thumb is that while a car is in motion with air coming through the radiator, the t-stat will allow the car to run the hotter between the t-stat temp and outside temp + 100* F. Meaning, on an 80* day, your car will cruise at approx 180* F. On a day colder than 60*, especially like temps where you guys are, the car will run at approx 160* F. Again this is like interstate cruising. On a cold day, of course the fans will be more productive as well.
So, running a 160 t-stat will cause the car to run below the temp the sensor is looking for and will ultimately throw that code mentioned.

Hope that made sense.

Thanks,
Mark

lavaman
10-16-09, 08:51 AM
You are correct in that we aint seen nothing yet! It will be bitterly cold soon enough. My car will see occasional winter use but will not be my DD. It will be interesting to see if this code gets set.

Mike 09 V
10-16-09, 11:02 AM
Just got back from a trip to LA and went through the desert with ambient around 110. Car ran exactly the same as it does in 70 degree weather. Slightly less than 220. Took delivery in June, hot Arizona summer, never varied in temperature. I wonder if there is something wrong with my gauge? On the other hand, it would seem to me that in order for emissions and everything else to be stable the temp SHOULD stay pretty constant. Ever since they started to get serious about emissions they have raised the temps. The old hot rodders say that you get the maximum HP right before the engine melts, but I don't think they were talking super chargers on pump gas either.

Gary Wells
10-16-09, 11:16 AM
As close as I can tell, all of the '09 CTS-V's seem to run slightly below 220˚F. I am in and around LA in general, but it seems to stay constant in that area, regardless of ambient temperatures. My only concern is that I, being an extremely olden timer, just really don't like to see a car run that hot in general. Smog restrictions be damned.

musclesbmf
10-16-09, 01:31 PM
As I stated in my post... The temp + 100 is only for constant cruising like on the interstate... As someone above stated, they cruised just below 220 on a 110* day. Anyways, a lower t-stat won't do any good in stop and go traffic unless you have the fans adjusted to come on sooner. So, based on how the fans are programmed in the stock ECU, our cars sit around 220*.

Mark

Vrocks
10-16-09, 01:50 PM
As I stated in my post... The temp + 100 is only for constant cruising like on the interstate... As someone above stated, they cruised just below 220 on a 110* day. Anyways, a lower t-stat won't do any good in stop and go traffic unless you have the fans adjusted to come on sooner. So, based on how the fans are programmed in the stock ECU, our cars sit around 220*.

Mark

I think the temp will only stay so low because I have the 160 / 180 (can't remember what temp it was but I guess it was the 160 from Jesse) thermostat installed, and the car sits around 180F while on the highway (it's 40F outside but this would make sense if I purchased a 180 from Jesse and not a 160). In traffic it'll get up to around 200 (I'm on the stock tune so there's no fan intervention).

baabootoo
09-13-10, 11:47 PM
lol, cmon man. I'm from chicago too and you know that 30's isn't worth anything until a couple months from now when you'll be starting your V in -20, -30 if you dont have a winter vehicle



Very true my man!!!!!!!!!!! :)

aj660
09-14-10, 02:49 AM
I'm still confused lol.... Is the 160 stat recommended or not?

cbloveday
09-14-10, 07:12 AM
It was recommended for my build, no issues and been through 1 winter and about to go into another.

neuronbob
09-14-10, 07:25 AM
So with my mods (see sig), and given I live in a very cold climate where it's normal to see highs in the teens (F) during the winter, should I even bother with a T-stat change at all? Even with my mods, the temp never gets above around 200, ever, whether stock tune or on Jesse's. Or should I be looking at a 180 deg T-stat? Just looking toward next year's mods (heat exchanger for sure....)

Domsz06
09-14-10, 08:36 AM
The only reason these cars have the hot t-stats is for the emissions I thought....

That being said even in cali you have to have your car warm to test emissions so it really doesn't matter does it?

6speeder
09-14-10, 09:17 AM
My CTS-V is (currently) stock, but I can tell you from experience with my 07 Z06 that you CAN get a code in winter from running a 160 thermostat. It only happened when I would do a cold start and get right on the freeway. The airflow from freeway speeds combined with the 160 wouldn't let the engine come up to the temp the ECM expected in time. That's NOT SAYING it was too cold, it was in the 170's to 180's, but the ECM expected more.

As for heater output, it's still nice and toasty, no problem.

Domsz06
09-14-10, 09:28 AM
My CTS-V is (currently) stock, but I can tell you from experience with my 07 Z06 that you CAN get a code in winter from running a 160 thermostat. It only happened when I would do a cold start and get right on the freeway. The airflow from freeway speeds combined with the 160 wouldn't let the engine come up to the temp the ECM expected in time. That's NOT SAYING it was too cold, it was in the 170's to 180's, but the ECM expected more.

As for heater output, it's still nice and toasty, no problem.

it never gets really cold down here, but my z too has a 160 and is hotter then crap in the few days it gets below freezing here in houston.

No codes here on mine, but I also let my z warm up before i drive it in the cold....

baabootoo
09-14-10, 02:15 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with some that was said. The job of the thermostat is to keep the engine at a certain temp, 192/195 in our case; depending upon what you read. It will open a little, or a lot, depending upon what is needed to keep the ENGINE side of it at 195. Ambient temp has nothing to do with engine temp, UNLESS the cooling system has maxed out and it runs hotter. IF a thermostat is working right, it will run at 195 when it's 20 or 120. When it gets hot enough, the coolant system will not be able to cool it anymore, the thermostat will be open all the way, so the coolant temp will rise. Yes, there will be a slight difference sometimes. If the car is moving, and the air is flowing, it will stabilize. Even on road courses, in over 100 F, my temp gauge never moved higher than where it sits which is just under the 220 notch. Along with that, I'm not sure those are very accurate anyway. The older Tuned Port engines had this same problem with the 160 temp, so they made a 170 and solved all the ills.

PhxTriode
09-15-10, 12:09 PM
100f seems to be the tipping point for me. If it is say 95f ambient the car runs cooler with the 160f tstat. 100f and higher it runs where it did stock regardless of freeway speed.

GMX322V S/C
09-15-10, 06:51 PM
The only reason these cars have the hot t-stats is for the emissions I thought....Yup.


That being said even in cali you have to have your car warm to test emissions so it really doesn't matter does it?My fans must be set to the default setting because my engine will still warm up to and maintain the stock temp while sitting still or in stop-and-go traffic.

Like PhxTriode, there is a tipping point at cruise; below a certain ambient, she runs 20 deg cooler.

shade
09-16-10, 05:51 PM
What is the max fan speed of the radiator fans? Idling in 115 degree weather and I step out of the car I can hear them but they are not loud by any means.
Are they just quiet or do they not spin very fast?
My 300c SRT those fans you could hear a mile away

PhxTriode
09-16-10, 06:47 PM
To my understanding they ramp based on engine temp, not a hi/low but by % so at 115* if your engine temp is say 210* the ECM might only be commanding 50% fan speed. The A/C fan works the same but instead off of temp it is off of refrigerant pressure.

shade
09-16-10, 09:03 PM
An AC fan? I thought there was only 2 fans behind the radiator?

PhxTriode
09-17-10, 01:00 PM
There are 2 but A/C commands the drivers side/lower fan.

shade
09-17-10, 01:22 PM
I notice when the ac is on the fan still spins slow. I guess a tune could modify those parameters

PhxTriode
09-17-10, 01:24 PM
You can modify the tables associated with pressure vs. % of speed for a/c. I am not too familiar with playing with those.

radix
09-17-10, 02:31 PM
I am going to weigh in as an extreme skeptic on the vast majority of folks putting in a 160 getting any benefit from it - and would make a fair bet that most will be more likely to reduce the life of their engine because of it (by some unknown statistical amount).

the main reason that they are recommended is that they are a quick and fairly harmless way to get some $$ for the seller/installer and give the customer a mod he can talk about. This thread is filled with old and new timers saying things like "I like/don't like my engine to run at bla bla degrees" - what the heck is that supposed to mean ? No one here has any data on how this engine and it's specific controls/tolerances will respond to changing it's cruise operating point under daily use - or how some previous experience should apply here.

There should be some benefit for folks doing extensive track work - to get the t-stat open at 160 vs 195, but it is a matter of time at temperature in those cases - under continuous high output the temp will be driven by ambient/radiator/power anyway (either t-stat will be fully open at a level of use) but getting it open sooner and closed later will help on recovery time and may even clip the peak temp under some schedules.

But what we have here is guys who never track their cars, who use them as daily drivers to run out for milk, who put on few miles per year, who can very seldom use a tiny fraction of the engine output without spending time in jail - putting these things on. My take is that these guys are more likely to see the negative effects of poor warm up/low operating temp- low oil temps, slow/incomplete purge of condensation and blow-by contaminants, incorrect block temps, piston /bearing clearance, etc. There are very good reasons that all OEMs operate engines very close to the boiling point of water that all the hand waving here doesn't come close to addressing - putt-putt-ing along in traffic at a low temp day after day may not be all that great of a trade off for a once a year benefit at the track...YMMV.

IMO the proper way to look at this one - is as a mod that may give a bit of extra performance under certain conditions - with the possibility of long term harm - if this is what you want, makes sense to you , cool.

But as a simple way to improve life or reliability or a no-brainer "upgrade" - I remain skeptical.

baabootoo
09-17-10, 02:32 PM
Did I miss if we can buy a 180 for these cars? I'd consider that, but not a 160 where I live.

kcshaner
10-24-10, 11:07 AM
Did I miss if we can buy a 180 for these cars? I'd consider that, but not a 160 where I live.

I am wondering the same thing. I've decided I don't want to do a 160, but a 180 may be slightly better than the stock thermostat, without being to agresive for a daily driven car that will see some cold winter days.

Gary Wells
10-24-10, 05:21 PM
I believe that somebody, maybe Jesse Bubb, and maybe others also, stated that the stock thermo is 185˚F, I believe, so a 5˚F thermo reduction will be of minimal value.

GMX322V S/C
10-24-10, 06:38 PM
I believe there is a 170 available as well.

citori01
10-24-10, 07:45 PM
We installed a 160. Drained the rad and replced with distilled water and red line water wetter we see temps around 190 on most days here in Florida. We did the same treatment to the heat exchanger fluid. Dont have before temps on it but the car did run 215-220 before the thermo and red line. Just somthing to think about.
Jason

Gary Wells
10-24-10, 08:53 PM
1 of the experienced tuners, I believe Jesse Bubb, but could have been James at D3 or any of the tune shops posted a very detailed explanation of why a 160˚F is the best choice of available thermos to run. I would look for that post / thread before deciding of another choice.
Also, changing the thermo is just part of the equation, the balance is having the tuner reset the fan and / fans on and / or off.

NC_Cadzilla
10-25-10, 02:59 AM
the thermostat is the best bang for the buck IMO. Cooler running engine means less timing being pulled out by the ECM on those hot days