: Buyers beware: GM rip-off!



vetteconvert
07-16-09, 08:25 PM
I am totally P.O'd! Just got off the phone with Cadillac customer service in regard to saddling me with my 2009 CTS-V in Arizona with California smog garbage: according to them, it's not unusual and there is nothing wrong with it. "There are no differences between the two classifications". According to the spokesman, most of the CTS-Vs in the western region are CA smogged (?). After discussing this with my dealer (Legends Cadillac in Scottsdale) as well, all of their CTS-Vs are supposedly YF5 CA smogged, including other dealers in AZ and Nevada. Sounds like a lot of BS to me. I had informed Cadillac and the dealer that I should not be penalized with CA smog crap on an AZ vehicle, with apparently less power and probably less resale value should I decide to sell the vehicle privately. Hhere should at least be a disclaimer on the vehicle Their response was a very indifferent attitude stating there was no misleading involved. Needless to say, this is my first and last Caddy. Wish I could get a class-action case started..

OldDrummer55
07-16-09, 09:53 PM
Class action suit? Hmmm... I recall GM losing a suit some years ago when an Oldsmobile buyer discovered his new car did not have the much advertised "Rocket V-8." Don't recall if it was a class action suit, but perhaps some of our attorney forum members would venture an opinion on the merit of a smog package suit?

nikon
07-16-09, 10:25 PM
Why would you have a bad resale value??? And your claims of less power?? why not goto the dyno first and prove it has less power, then bring that to GM.

caddycruiser
07-16-09, 11:27 PM
Why would you have a bad resale value??? And your claims of less power?? why not goto the dyno first and prove it has less power, then bring that to GM.

Exactly. Not going to happen. If anything, it will continue to be worth more because of where you're located and the climate, etc. vs. the car.

There is so little of any difference between the emissions specifics, SO little, that it's not something anyone ever calls into question. If you think it does, you either 1) are really overthinking it and/or 2) somehow have had past experience with a car so equipped vs. another that wasn't that actually had a measurable difference.

This is also not uncommon ordering wise. Typically it is region specific, but depending on the company, brand, dealers, etc. it doesn't have to be--there are "California emissions" ordered cars all over the east coast. Again, so little of any difference--and not even like a handful years ago that actually had a different hp rating--you should just smile and enjoy your V, rather than analyze yourself into a hole on this one.

Gary Wells
07-17-09, 07:06 AM
Not taking a side here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/174159-cali-vs-slower-yf5.html
But I can only imagine how disappointing this could be for a person that specifically did not want a Kali smog rated CTS-V.
As others have said, smog, compare, & then present the facts to GM. I will bet that this post will make others consider this possibility when ordering or purchasing a CTS-V. Sorry for your discontent, but it might work out OK.

Hawkeye2
07-17-09, 07:23 AM
The resale may be higher. California is a huge market for cars and if it is already certified there.....

MReiland
07-17-09, 09:18 AM
The thread title seems a bit harsh, until I see some actual numbers that say that the SAE certified HP numbers are off for California cars, I wouldn't call the car a Rip-Off. If anything call California a rip-off for making up their own emissions laws!!!!!!!!!!

PRESS RELEASE

2009 CTS-V Performance Reaches The Stratosphere

Certified at 556 horsepower, acceleration times are top among V-8 sedans

MILFORD, Mich. - As final testing of the limited-edition 2009 CTS-V nears completion, the results suggest that Cadillac's upcoming sports sedan is entering the stratosphere of the world's highest-performing cars. Cadillac announces the following performance specifications for all-new 2009 CTS-V:

CTS-V, with its supercharged 6.2-liter LSA engine, has achieved SAE-certified peak output of 556 horsepower (415 kW) at 6100 rpm and 551 lb.-ft. (747 Nm) of torque at 3800 rpm.

Bigron
07-17-09, 11:05 AM
Hhere should at least be a disclaimer on the vehicle.

You can always have the VIN run through GMVIS or something similar and it pops up.
My 2004 is a Cali car and I was all about it since I knew it was coming from a warm weather, no salt climate.

Throw an exhaust on it and I am sure you would forget about it.

stealthjr
07-17-09, 11:26 AM
I am totally P.O'd! Just got off the phone with Cadillac customer service in regard to saddling me with my 2009 CTS-V in Arizona with California smog garbage: according to them, it's not unusual and there is nothing wrong with it. "There are no differences between the two classifications". According to the spokesman, most of the CTS-Vs in the western region are CA smogged (?). After discussing this with my dealer (Legends Cadillac in Scottsdale) as well, all of their CTS-Vs are supposedly YF5 CA smogged, including other dealers in AZ and Nevada. Sounds like a lot of BS to me. I had informed Cadillac and the dealer that I should not be penalized with CA smog crap on an AZ vehicle, with apparently less power and probably less resale value should I decide to sell the vehicle privately. Hhere should at least be a disclaimer on the vehicle Their response was a very indifferent attitude stating there was no misleading involved. Needless to say, this is my first and last Caddy. Wish I could get a class-action case started..


Just my opinion but I think you are completely overreacting. I was involved in the other thread "Gary Wells" gave you a link to and flet bummed that I bought a Cali car and lived in Texas after hearing Scott from Superior make the statement he made. However, I went to the dyno...as I was driiving to the dyno it dawned on me...the car STILL HAS TO MAKE THE 556HP RATING NO MATTER WHAT...so unless my car laid an egg on the dyno...I got nothing to complain about. I bought it expecting 556hp and I got more than that.

So far, I have not seen one car make less than 556hp Cadillac claims it does and there are no threads that I have seen about folks complaining their car is a dog.

Personally, I dont care if Cadillac gave me less boost, a bigger smog pump, or less expensive spark plugs than non Cali smogged cars. As long as my car is doing everything Cadillac has promised me...which is why I bought the car...I'm perfectly fine and you should be too!

Good luck,

Robert

thebigjimsho
07-17-09, 01:28 PM
Just my opinion but I think you are completely overreacting. I was involved in the other thread "Gary Wells" gave you a link to and flet bummed that I bought a Cali car and lived in Texas after hearing Scott from Superior make the statement he made. However, I went to the dyno...as I was driiving to the dyno it dawned on me...the car STILL HAS TO MAKE THE 556HP RATING NO MATTER WHAT...so unless my car laid an egg on the dyno...I got nothing to complain about. I bought it expecting 556hp and I got more than that.

So far, I have not seen one car make less than 556hp Cadillac claims it does and there are no threads that I have seen about folks complaining their car is a dog.

Personally, I dont care if Cadillac gave me less boost, a bigger smog pump, or less expensive spark plugs than non Cali smogged cars. As long as my car is doing everything Cadillac has promised me...which is why I bought the car...I'm perfectly fine and you should be too!

Good luck,

Robert
Agreed. California cars might be down a couple hp. MAYBE. Sometimes it's just a change off idle and the powerband is the same. The OP doesn't even know what the CA cars are rated as, just a simple statement from Scott.

CA rated cars are nothing new. They've been around since the formation of CARB. My Accord was a car spec'd for 5 states, including my state(MA) and CA. It was down 1hp and 1ft/lb. Just tolerances from car to car is more than that.

If CA cars are required, then the auto supplier is going to pepper the entire area with CA smogged cars. The auto supplier knows that cars swap from dealer to dealer and can't necessarily predict X amount of cars will be sold in CA. You can't accuse Cadillac of ripping you off if you buy a car in AZ with CA smog. That's ridiculous. Anyone west of the Rockies should be aware of CA smog and check for themselves.

The OP's title is wrong and hysterical...

vetteconvert
07-17-09, 01:34 PM
Thanks for all your inputs, guys. Guess I am ready to give it a shot and try enjoying the V. The original posting regarding the Ca emissions had me going, then finding out that I had CA smog on my car plus the indifference when discussing it with the parties involved. I am however still awaiting a response to my first original email to Cadillac last week, all I received was an automatic response that my email had been received. Not the best customer service, in my opinion..

TSS
07-17-09, 02:10 PM
I am not quite getting it. You loved your V last week, but today because of rumored HP reduction, you are angry, feel ripped off , and are unhappy with the performance now? It was not a secret that it was a CA car. I know where all my new cars come from before I take them, for far lessor reasons than smog issues (I don't want a front plate state car unless bracket has never been on or dealers makes it right) . I just don't get all the excitement or wild accusations of rip-offs. I sincerely hope that you just go back to enjoying your V and being thankful for the positives in your life....starting with, you have the kind of life where you can buy a V, while many out there are struggling.

Lord Cadillac
07-17-09, 02:45 PM
I am not quite getting it. You loved your V last week, but today because of rumored HP reduction, you are angry, feel ripped off , and are unhappy with the performance now? It was not a secret that it was a CA car. I know where all my new cars come from before I take them, for far lessor reasons than smog issues (I don't want a front plate state car unless bracket has never been on or dealers makes it right) . I just don't get all the excitement or wild accusations of rip-offs. I sincerely hope that you just go back to enjoying your V and being thankful for the positives in your life....starting with, you have the kind of life where you can buy a V, while many out there are struggling.
FYI. For whatever reason, vetteconvert's last post (12:34pm) was moderated (not displaying) and TSS's post was made before seeing his most recent comments...

thebigjimsho
07-17-09, 02:49 PM
Thanks for all your inputs, guys. Guess I am ready to give it a shot and try enjoying the V. The original posting regarding the Ca emissions had me going, then finding out that I had CA smog on my car plus the indifference when discussing it with the parties involved. I am however still awaiting a response to my first original email to Cadillac last week, all I received was an automatic response that my email had been received. Not the best customer service, in my opinion..
I can understand your disappointment not knowing about your V being CA smog equipped. But I think you'll find it's much ado about nothing in the long run.

I still don't understand why Scott came up out of the blue with that thread without any new hp numbers and what the actual performance difference will be. Maybe he's just trying to sell MI cars to prospective west coast clients...hmm...

stealthjr
07-17-09, 05:25 PM
I still don't understand why Scott came up out of the blue with that thread without any new hp numbers and what the actual performance difference will be. Maybe he's just trying to sell MI cars to prospective west coast clients...hmm...

I hope that's not the case...but he did do the "two step back pedal" when I asked him to provide this document! :hmm:

Either way, I was told by Wait4Me that he entered in SEVERAL different VIN#'s for cars with both Smog codes and they are all built WITH IDENTICAL PARTS!!!! Perhaps it truly is just a certification thing??? :shhh:

See ya,

Robert

4gear70
07-17-09, 06:02 PM
Either way, I was told by Wait4Me that he entered in SEVERAL different VIN#'s for cars with both Smog codes and they are all built WITH IDENTICAL PARTS!!!! Perhaps it truly is just a certification thing??? :shhh:

See ya,

Robert

Yeah, I mentioned something similar in this other related thread...

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/174159-cali-vs-slower-yf5-2.html

ewill3rd
07-17-09, 07:28 PM
Um, as far as I know all the V-I models were FE9 50 state emissions. (someone please read an emissions label and verify this for me if you want)
That means they are certified for sale in all 50 states. GM isn't going to make a 50 state car and then a crappy one for sale in CA only when you can buy a 50 state car there.

The nomenclature on the new emissions label is a bit hard to understand because they changed it but I am researching it.
My guess would be that they are manufacturing them with all the same emissions requirements. A lot of states have jumped on the reduced emissions bandwagon so manufacturers make all of one emissions level so they don't have to worry about sending non-compliant vehicles to the wrong state.
This is the 21st century, not 1984. CA equipped vehicles are hardly the dogs that they once were.

I am at a dealer in VA and the emissions label on a vehicle on our lot says
US EPA class/stds: LDV/TIER 2
CA class/stds: PC/LEV2
These vehicles have NE1 emissions spec which is 50 states and also bear the NU1 CA emissions standard.
I just ran a GMVIS on 3 of them and they all show NE1 and NU1 which means they are saleable in all 50 states.

What I have read so far leads me to believe that a Light duy vehicle tier 2 and a CA passenger car low emission vehicle class 2 are the same standards.
Let me know how that class action lawsuit turns out.

adhir@qx.net
07-17-09, 07:47 PM
I still don't understand why Scott came up out of the blue with that thread without any new hp numbers and what the actual performance difference will be. Maybe he's just trying to sell MI cars to prospective west coast clients...hmm...

Say it isn't so.:contract: To be fair, they may need more paint protection given the harsh West Coast climate.

Mikels
07-17-09, 09:11 PM
Just so you know....

CTSV's use same calibrations for all 50 states. Use same hardware as well. Make same rated power.

Difference is emission standards that are tested and validated to for certification purposes ONLY. That's it. Nothing more.

BTW - there are many 'me too' states that have or are adapting California emission requirements.

wfo
07-17-09, 09:42 PM
Many cars are Ca smogged...not a big deal. Don't sweat it.

"Life's short, play hard"-Nike-

Krug Ford
07-17-09, 10:01 PM
When GM engineers have sheets with info on them I can't copy, scan or take pics. I am not even allowed to talk about it. All CTS's are 50 state cars..

However them do have different convertors and PCM program that make them different. I was told they make 4 to 6 HP less on a YF5. I just sell them. I have no idea on the specs.. The engineers are the ones that told me and a few people this.


The same is on the ZR1 with the same YF5 code. Escalades, 6.2 Denalis for example.

I am not looking for a pissing match.

thebigjimsho
07-17-09, 10:06 PM
When GM engineers have sheets with info on them I can't copy, scan or take pics. I am not even allowed to talk about it. All CTS's are 50 state cars..

However them do have different convertors and PCM program that make them different. I was told they make 4 to 6 HP less on a YF5. I just sell them. I have no idea on the specs.. The engineers are the ones that told me and a few people this.


The same is on the ZR1 with the same YF5 code. Escalades, 6.2 Denalis for example.

I am not looking for a pissing match.
You say you're not allowed to talk about it. Then you talk about it. And then you say they're 50 state cars, yet then they are different. And how does 4-6 hp on a 556hp car make any sort of measurable difference?


There's no pissing match. But it just seems like you started a storm for no real reason, tis all...

Krug Ford
07-17-09, 10:37 PM
I was just talking about what an engineer told me..


I'll sell cars and not talk tech then..

liqidvenom
07-17-09, 11:01 PM
it might not be a situation like you think. we sell 50 state legal cars yet certain versions sold in the US market are made to meet different requirments. ie: a car has to give off no emissions while being heated in a special chamber. those cars are made in small numbers along with the normal 50 state cars and people buy them and never know the difference.

ewill3rd
07-18-09, 12:20 PM
There used to be a difference between a 48 state (Federal) and a CA car. (I forget who the other hold out was)
It didn't take long for GM to figure out what a giant hassle it is to make a saleable car in one state and then tons of production for all the others.
Lots of cars are LEV or ULEV these days and everything it going towards stricter standards. Not all of our fleet are 50 state emissions certified. I think Escalade and maybe a couple other models might still have separate requirements.

If anyone wants to sue anybody here sue the US government or the state of CA. They are the ones who set the standards, not GM. We all voted for these knuckleheads and they just run around Washington doing whatever they want and everyone blames the car companies. Focus your attention on the right group of people here. There phone numbers and email addresses are readily available. If you want to complain or hire a lawyer, go after them.

Scott, I (nor anyone else I think) am not trying to beat you up here, you were given misinformation from a seemingly reputable source.
Running a few cars on GMVIS will show you that these cars are all 50 state saleable and if you spend more than 10 seconds thinking about it you can see how retarded it would be to have cars that say "50 State certified" on the emissions label and then making cars that are for CA only. I am telling you regardless of what you have heard, it is not happening.
This stuff is confusing as can be, I'll admit that. With states changing laws and the government mandating stricter rules every day it is hard to keep up.
I think the lesson here is don't believe everything you read or hear.
Some knucklehead probably told your engineer friend this misinformation and he is just propogating it by passing it on. No harm no foul.
I only take issue with the OP here for flipping out after not even bothering to do a google search and theatening to call his lawyer for something that isn't even true.

Having an engineering degree does not exempt them from making mistakes or misunderstanding something. I know lots of engineers that are lucky to be able to tell you which end of the car is the front.

MReiland
07-18-09, 12:37 PM
Having an engineering degree does not exempt them from making mistakes or misunderstanding something. I know lots of engineers that are lucky to be able to tell you which end of the car is the front.

The front is the one with the shiny white lights, right?:hide::hmm:

vperl
07-18-09, 02:24 PM
The front is the one with the shiny white lights, right?:hide::hmm:


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

No engineer here, but it is the pointy end right ?

thebigjimsho
07-18-09, 02:45 PM
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

No engineer here, but it is the pointy end right ?
Cadillacs are pointy at all ends...

KatMcRat
07-19-09, 12:01 AM
My California car is going on the Dyno on Monday. We will see what it does compared to rest the cars. It is still bone stock. The only disadvantage I have is we only have 91 octane. I thought about adding race fuel but I want bone stock numbers.

Gary Wells
07-19-09, 12:06 AM
Hi, Kat, how are you, Pat, & family doing? I would definitiely be interested in knowing what #'s your car produces. I will be going once I am broken it.
TIA/R: Gary Wells

KatMcRat
07-19-09, 12:13 AM
Hi, Kat, how are you, Pat, & family doing? I would definitiely be interested in knowing what #'s your car produces. I will be going once I am broken it.
TIA/R: Gary Wells

We are all fine. Pat is just stressed trying to get the truck ready for Bonneville.

I will start a new thread on Monday with the results.