: panamera beats cts-v nurburgring record



aceofblitz
07-10-09, 07:20 PM
http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-porsche-panamera-turbo-circles-ring-faster-than-cts-v.html


Im very impressed, nice numbers from a nice car.... with a big booty but nice car nevertheless. Send a slightly modded cts-v to ze germans and get back the record D:

4gear70
07-10-09, 07:35 PM
It speaks volumes for the Caddy that it's even being compared to the 2X+$$ Porsche.

GMX322V S/C
07-10-09, 08:08 PM
...and after that long, seemingly blistering lap, Herr Röhrl would look up and glance into his rearview mirror and the V2 would be RIGHT THERE!

marktanner
07-10-09, 09:08 PM
The Porsche's time is certainly impressive, but with the equipment it has, I'm kind of surprised it wasn't faster than that. The ceramic brakes alone could account for the time difference at the 'ring, and the over-boost function of the sport-chrono package should be good for a second or two as well. Plus, as great a driver as Heinricy is, he doesn't have near the experience at the 'ring that Rohl has. I'd like to see a time set on a car without those $10,000+ worth of options, and I'd like to see what ring-meister Rohl could do with a stock V, not that it's ever going to happen. I'm not convinced a base Turbo would even be as fast as the V. Just my opinion.

neuronbob
07-10-09, 09:11 PM
Very impressed....but it still costs twice as much. Besides, I'm sure that Caddy will tweak the engine a little for 2010 or 2011 and get the record back. Mach schnell, Cadillac.

ctsv5005
07-10-09, 09:13 PM
...and after that long, seemingly blistering lap, Herr Röhrl would look up and glance into his rearview mirror and the V2 would be RIGHT THERE!

Classic!!

vperl
07-10-09, 09:46 PM
Looked at the price for the biggies V9 with all the goodies

200K

Wonder what a CTS-V would function like if GM had put in an addittional 140 K extra for upgrades in interior , motor, brakes, transmission, blower, and anything else you can think of....


I might be wrong

SlvrBullIT
07-11-09, 01:20 AM
http://jalopnik.com/5152139/porsche-panamera-turbo-shows-us-insides-starts-at-89800

$132K ---- They can have it!!!!

For TWICE the price, and it still took a Race car driver with ceramic brakes and top tier twin turbo motor to beat it....

vperl
07-11-09, 01:32 AM
the price of the Porsche is closer to 200K if you want the brakes, sports package, and the rest of the 3 pages of options

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/porsche/panamera/101155093/optionsresults.html?action=2

132K is the nothing on this car package

LV_V
07-11-09, 02:18 AM
I have been waiting to see Porsche produce a vehicle like this. Extremely impressive, even at this price point.

Nutz
07-11-09, 03:51 AM
Anything that fits in a damn elevator better be fast on "the ring"...

RWFJR
07-11-09, 10:48 AM
I like going to parties "quickly" with friends. How many friends can you fit in a Porsche?

kencav
07-11-09, 10:54 AM
but we still are "fastest 4 door sedan around the ring UNDER $100,000":bouncy:

aceofblitz
07-11-09, 11:26 AM
This porsche is the panamera, google it, its a 4door sedan by porsche looks weird but nice at the same time.

RWFJR
07-11-09, 11:46 AM
I like going to parties "quickly" with friends. How many friends can you fit in a Porsche?

Should have done my homework. Here is a quote from a top magazine review;The driver’s hip-point is just 30mm higher than it is in a 911, which promises unusual levels of athleticism in a big four door. Its designers wanted it to give it a low, wide stance to help is agility, but combining this with rear-seat comfort for tall people proved a challenge.

:wtf:

vperl
07-11-09, 02:53 PM
Should have done my homework. Here is a quote from a top magazine review;The driver’s hip-point is just 30mm higher than it is in a 911, which promises unusual levels of athleticism in a big four door. Its designers wanted it to give it a low, wide stance to help is agility, but combining this with rear-seat comfort for tall people proved a challenge.

:wtf:



several artcles mentioned you can have enough room for a couple baby seats//////


Shot Gun

C6ZR1
07-11-09, 03:05 PM
But, it's ugly.

q2bruiser
07-11-09, 03:29 PM
Records are made to be broken. Very few stand the test of time.

JKH

RWFJR
07-11-09, 03:30 PM
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

several artcles mentioned you can have enough room for a couple baby seats//////


Shot Gunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Me twoooooooooooooooooooooo

vperl
07-11-09, 06:55 PM
But, it's ugly.


did you mean , " butt ugly "

ctsv5005
07-11-09, 07:01 PM
Records are made to be broken. Very few stand the test of time.

JKH

Classic!!

thebigjimsho
07-12-09, 12:12 PM
Should have done my homework. Here is a quote from a top magazine review;The driver’s hip-point is just 30mm higher than it is in a 911, which promises unusual levels of athleticism in a big four door. Its designers wanted it to give it a low, wide stance to help is agility, but combining this with rear-seat comfort for tall people proved a challenge.

:wtf:
Which is why they have that butt ugly rear end. They had to keep the roofline high. If you ever see one, take a look at the headliner in the backseat. Tis weird...

Nutz
07-12-09, 03:31 PM
I was just reading the Autoblog website press release and my 6 year old daughter (who is quite the car enthusiast) says "ooh daddy, white punchbuggy!", and proceeds to punch me in the arm and says "white punchbuggy on the computer, no punchback"... :highfive:

SlvrBullIT
07-12-09, 03:57 PM
^^^
lmao :bonkers:

Tasos
07-12-09, 04:40 PM
The porsche is a great coupe. The sedan, not so much. Sounds like a great performance vehicle though. As for the 'ring. An engineer set that lap in an automatic for caddy. He may be a good driver, but definitely not the type of big gun the Germans used. The official record still stands. If it's important to GM then they can and will beat it if warranted. But really, do you think that buyers will compare a panamera to a V when they are in the market for a sedan.

PAULSTSMAN1
07-12-09, 04:44 PM
The Cadillac CTS-V is an American Sedan; the Porsche Panamera is an Exotic, for the additional $40K do you think only 3 seconds is a big thing? How many of you lost money recently in a race?

No big deal!

CVP33
07-12-09, 05:28 PM
So far Jaguar, Aston Martin (to come) and Mercedes are the only makes I've seen pull off a 4 door coupe styling exercise. Porsche sedan = uber-fail.

thebigjimsho
07-12-09, 11:25 PM
Seriously, all you need is carbon fiber brakes and that 3 seconds is buh-bye!

SlvrBullIT
07-13-09, 12:27 AM
carbon brakes, +50RWHP, +50RWTQ, then I'd say 3 sec is gone. Could gain a little more time in the back straight away at "the ring"

Rodya234
07-13-09, 12:31 AM
^You could gain a little bit more time if it was a manual. The auto that made the record hit the speed limiter on the back straight.

ericpd
07-13-09, 01:27 AM
I have been waiting to see Porsche produce a vehicle like this. Extremely impressive, even at this price point.

Yeah,... you're right. The Biscayne as oppose to the Impala. Damn,... I just dated myself. Oh well.

Hell, I'd go for just putting Lewis Hamilton behind the wheel with a manual transmission,... that should help compensate for the ceramic brakes enough. I think the Caddy would recapture those 3 seconds.

marktanner
07-13-09, 01:33 AM
One can now configure a Panamera on the Porsche website. The base Turbo is $132,600, plus transportation and gas guzzler tax. The car that broke the record had the Sport Chrono for $2,280 (adds launch control and 10% overboost, plus further control of the suspension), ceramic brakes for $8,840, 20" wheels $1,560 (required with the brakes, 19's standard), for a total of $12,680 in performance options that we know of on this car. The spec on the sport chrono lowers 0-60 and 0-99 mph both by 0.2 sec. The brakes alone, being 5-10 lb lighter per wheel, should account for 2-3 seconds at that track, being easier to accelerate, more agile, more powerful (fronts are 16.14 inches!), and fade free, really important at this track. The report didn't say, but I bet that car also had Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control with rear differential lock, $4,460, that includes active sway bars that reduce lean, as well as better traction. If so equipped, that would be $17,740 in performance options. Also available for performance is Servotronic steering at $270, and sport exhaust at $2,950 (no claims for increased power, but does have selectable sound). That makes a breathtaking $20,360 in available performance options, on top of the base $133K++, not including any other options like sport seats. Note that the Caddy offers NO performance options.

So, it takes $146-$150K plus Walter Rohrl to beat a $60K Caddy. Pure speculation, but I bet Rohrl could make up every one of those three seconds if he were to drive the Caddy, maybe more. I've driven the 'ring on five separate occasions, including two 3 day schools. Believe me, experience is really important here, and Heinricy's experience at the 'ring just can't compare to Walter Rohrl, who has long been Porsche's development driver at the 'ring. Heinricy IS pretty impressive, though. It takes pretty big balls and a lot of skill to do 7:59 in ANYTHING at that track. I also bet a V would spank a base Panamera Turbo without the above options. I'd love to see an impartial but experienced driver test them all under controlled conditions: the V vs base turbo vs max performance turbo, plus throw in a base $90K Panamera S for closer price parity (plus RWD). Maybe some magazine will attempt this some day. We can dream.

CADYSHAK
07-13-09, 02:07 AM
You forgot that Porsch has NOT varified that so called record . So perhaps they didn't have a STOCK optioned car on the track but rather an prototype ?

SlvrBullIT
07-13-09, 04:17 AM
^You could gain a little bit more time if it was a manual. The auto that made the record hit the speed limiter on the back straight.

The 6M was at the ring and didn't go sub 8min

SlvrBullIT
07-13-09, 04:21 AM
They do need to upgrade the speed limiter on the auto though.

jvp
07-13-09, 08:33 AM
The 6M was at the ring and didn't go sub 8min

It also wasn't being driven by John.

jas

marktanner
07-13-09, 09:35 AM
Heinricy has stated in interviews (videos posted on this forum) that he prefers the manual, but that he used the automatic because that was what he was driving that week at the 'ring. He didn't know the appropriate shift points. I don't blame him. I certainly wouldn't try a fast run in a car I hadn't been driving, either. I doubt that the auto hit the rev limiter on the back straight, though. It's actually uphill, and cars just don't accelerate like you think they ought to. I only hit 145 in my 911, and 160-165 in my GT3, both 5th and 6th gears. It just seems to hit a wall and stops accelerating. There is one downhill section where one might hit the limiter, but it would be so brief that it really wouldn't matter.

CIWS
07-13-09, 09:37 AM
A nice sign for the Porsche, and any potential owner should be proud of the fact of how much each one of those 3 seconds cost to beat the Cadillac. Roughly 30-40K.

aceofblitz
07-13-09, 10:28 AM
ermm... full option vs full option in my country, it would be a $90,000 difference... bought mine for 73 grand, panamera with the ceramic breaks and fully loaded around here is $163k probablz around the $150k region in the states. yeah id rather have a spare CTS-V in manual form for the heck of it.
Someone in the autoblog comments page said "it might be 3 seconds faster, but its a month uglier" lol

CIWS
07-13-09, 10:32 AM
Someone in the autoblog comments page said "it might be 3 seconds faster, but its a month uglier" lol
:histeric:


A good side of this could be a HP upgrade and platform tweak for around the 2011 year model. Odds are BMUU will be gunning for that record when the updated M5 hits the asphalt.

thebigjimsho
07-13-09, 10:48 AM
ermm... full option vs full option in my country, it would be a $90,000 difference...
C was saying 30-40k for EACH one of those 3 seconds...

Gotham CTS-V
07-13-09, 10:51 AM
It seems like Porsche really pumped some nice performance into their first sedan.

Bang for the buck, of course we win. But that could be said about a Corvette Z06 vs a 911 Turbo, etc. The Z06 beats it in performance and honestly looks comparably as good. But the Porsche is a Porsche and the Corvette is a Chevy. Case closed. Similiar with the Panamera. May have similiar lap times and performance, but the Porsche is a much higher class car and will be seen and marketed as such. The guy who is buying the Panamera is looking more into the Aston Martins, High end Mercs, and exotics.

neuronbob
07-13-09, 11:31 AM
^^^^^^^^
Well stated. Apples vs. Oranges, or G8 GXP vs. CTS-V.

Gotham CTS-V
07-13-09, 11:55 AM
Ok I retract everything I just said. CTS-V is still the fastest sedan around the 'Ring.

The Panamera is the fastest STATIONWAGON :wtf::vomit:

Sorry guys. But after I saw a side view of the car, I now realize how ugly this monstrosity truly is.

Looks aside though, still a great performer lol.

http://www.cubiccapacity.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/official-porsche-panamera-leaked-images_1.jpg

Rodya234
07-13-09, 12:00 PM
Lol it is pretty ugly.

But isn't the ugly excuse what M5 owners use against the V? :rolleyes:

Gotham CTS-V
07-13-09, 12:34 PM
Lol it is pretty ugly.

But isn't the ugly excuse what M5 owners use against the V? :rolleyes:

So say the CTS-V is a butt ugly car :thumbsup:...it's still about $30k cheaper than an M5.

The Porsche is $40-60k MORE expensive than the M5 and is more than DOUBLE the price of the CTS-V. I will not knock people who buy exotic cars and spend hundreds of thousands on Rolls Royce Phantoms, Bentleys, Lambos, Ferraris, etc because those cars just look so damn good that it's almost justifiable. This Porsche is in the shape of a station wagon. It just doesn't fly with me, but to each their own of course. I think the Aston Martin Rapide, on the other hand, looks 10x sexier. It may not perform as well as the Panamera, but at least you can justify the high price tag for the gorgeous looks. I'd rather buy an Evo X and modify it to 600hp for a total of $40k than get that $150k Porsche trainwreck.

Mystical_Ice
07-13-09, 08:15 PM
Someone who works at Porshce told me today "Hey buddy - guess what, the CTS-V is no longer the fastest sedan in the world..."

I replied -

1) The current CTS-V's nurburgreg was a single lap
2) ...at the end of a test session
3) in an automatic
4) by John Heincry (major respect to him still)

... i bet if cadillac takes a manual V, and gets a couple of laps, they can beat that panamera time

adhir@qx.net
07-13-09, 09:33 PM
I'm a Porsche fanatic (own a '97 993TT and '92 MB 500E), and I cant' get myself attracted to the styling of any Porsche built in the past decade, except the Carrera GT. I'd take the CTS-V over any other sedan, given the price point. I'm still amazed that the CTS-V even exists.

Nutz
07-13-09, 11:30 PM
:wisdom:
I'm still amazed it happened too.:highfive:

CADYSHAK
07-13-09, 11:40 PM
Firstly , porsch has NOT confirmed the test numbers , so it is NOT on the record books yet . Secondly the automatic CTS-V according to John Heinricy was the faster of the two cars on the track .

Stingray23
07-13-09, 11:51 PM
As fast a it may be, you still cant cure its ugliness.

RapidRob
07-13-09, 11:56 PM
Firstly , porsch has NOT confirmed the test numbers , so it is NOT on the record books yet . Secondly the automatic CTS-V according to John Heinricy was the faster of the two cars on the track .

Hmmmm - Let me guess, you have an automatic v2, right? :rolleyes:

Rob

ericpd
07-14-09, 12:45 AM
Lol it is pretty ugly.

But isn't the ugly excuse what M5 owners use against the V? :rolleyes:

Hell,... they'll use anything they can get their hands on to justify a case against us. Including ugly! They make me laugh!

Tony407
07-14-09, 04:35 AM
But really, do you think that buyers will compare a panamera to a V when they are in the market for a sedan.

Many a European car owner has said the same thing about the V. I think the Panamera is probably the ugliest car I've seen in a long time, and even if it IS over 2 times as much money, a record is still a record. It was nice to have the record for as long as we did. Good job Porsche.

Tony

Tony407
07-14-09, 04:37 AM
^You could gain a little bit more time if it was a manual. The auto that made the record hit the speed limiter on the back straight.

I've wondered the same thing myself. Do you know this for a fact? If that's the case, then it would be nice to have another run with the manual.

Tony

Tony407
07-14-09, 04:42 AM
Heinricy has stated in interviews (videos posted on this forum) that he prefers the manual, but that he used the automatic because that was what he was driving that week at the 'ring. He didn't know the appropriate shift points. I don't blame him. I certainly wouldn't try a fast run in a car I hadn't been driving, either. I doubt that the auto hit the rev limiter on the back straight, though. It's actually uphill, and cars just don't accelerate like you think they ought to. I only hit 145 in my 911, and 160-165 in my GT3, both 5th and 6th gears. It just seems to hit a wall and stops accelerating. There is one downhill section where one might hit the limiter, but it would be so brief that it really wouldn't matter.

I have also heard this interview and would enjoy seeing him on the Ring after he's had a chance to get used to the 6M transmission there.

Tony

tblack
07-14-09, 04:59 AM
I gotta say it's an impressive automobile and I'm a huge Porsche fan. I checked it out online and the interior is gorgeous and the twin turbo variants really move.

Credit to Porsche for making this vehicle.

....Having said that, you could buy 3 CTS-V's for the price of a fully loaded Panamera! In this economy if people still are cool with paying a 3X for a nameplate then they can have it.

......Also, is there a manual option at all? Isn't porsche supposed to be the "pure" sports car co.?

Lastly, you know what I am going to say...... I don't know if the looks will grow on me, and I've tried to look at the car from every angle but I just can't bring myself to like it from any of them. The exterior styling can only be described as inexcusable. I mean, who looked at that car and said "looks great! Lets make it!" ......I hope they got fired.

marktanner
07-14-09, 09:29 AM
Porsche offers a manual on the base "S" in Europe, but not here, only PDKs. They even offer a manual on a few versions of the Cayenne, including the sporty GTS, but none at all in their sport sedan. That would lose me right there, not to mention the price and the hideous styling.

cjwolverine
07-14-09, 12:10 PM
I like to look at percentage increases and decreases. So the caddy finishes in 479 seconds, the pan in 476. 3 seconds divided by 479 is at .385% victory. A 70k loaded V at GMS pricing vs. a reported $150 or $160k pan is over a 100% upcharge for a .4% win in an 8 minute race. I'm not saying caddy owners are frugal, but the pan makes the caddy look like the bargain of the century. It just may be that.

I like the interior and I do feel the pan is exotic, but I would have to stay inside the car the rest of my life, because when I get out of the front seat and look back at it, I'd kill myself for buying such an ugly car. I know they are after a different buying, I just don't know if that buyer exists. Even people with 200k to blow on a whim don't like ugly cars.

just my 3 cents. (inflation, and I charge the extra penny to cover President O's new taxes)
chris

1BlinkGone
07-14-09, 06:42 PM
ugly is in the eye of the beholder, and all its innocent bystanders. :)

Seriously, I like the Porsche Panamera Turbo. I have not seen one yet in real life, but many have said that it comes across differently than in photos. I have found that to be the case with autos in general. For example, I think the V looks far better in real life, than in pictures. Pictures only give a static perspective.

That said, it did take me awhile to warm up to the PM. For me, I'd only consider the turbo version, as the other two seem releatively pointless if you're buying into the Porsche pedigree for an exotic top-tier sedan. YMMV.

adhir@qx.net
07-14-09, 07:41 PM
“'You are drunk Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk. 'Yes, Mrs. Braddock, I am drunk. But you, Mrs. Braddock are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But, tomorrow morning, I, Winston Churchill will be sober.”

GMX322V S/C
07-12-10, 03:04 AM
So...one year later, the Panamera's record is still unofficial--at least according to a Car and Driver article that was actually talking about the Subaru WRX STi prototype that beat the Panamera's time. Coincidentally, I had also heard that the Panamera was equipped with a full, bolted-in roll cage; has anyone else heard this? Porsche has been pretty low-key about this, but if true, I would submit that the CTS-V still holds the record for a bone-stock production sedan (the safety harness rack in the V was "loose-fit" and did not add to the structural integrity of the car) :spin:

mugatu22
07-12-10, 05:47 AM
John Heinricy explains why he used the auto at the Nurburgring:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9d5xf-xeOU

"The auto is calibrated so well, it did what it needed to do...what more could I ask for? It did its job." He says he touched the rev limiter at 175mph just as he reached the bottom of the hill, so no time loss there either.

So the automatic is faster 0-60 (3.9sec) and it provided the fastest time for GM at the Nurburgring. The 6-manual is an honorable choice for those of us who like to row through the gears, but the automatic is simply faster. It's cool they offer both though.

Tony407
07-12-10, 07:59 PM
John Heinricy explains why he used the auto at the Nurburgring:

YouTube- Race Legend John Heinricy Talks about the CTS-V Record Breaking Lap at Nurburgring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9d5xf-xeOU)

"The auto is calibrated so well, it did what it needed to do...what more could I ask for? It did its job." He says he touched the rev limiter at 175mph just as he reached the bottom of the hill, so no time loss there either.

So the automatic is faster 0-60 (3.9sec) and it provided the fastest time for GM at the Nurburgring. The 6-manual is an honorable choice for those of us who like to row through the gears, but the automatic is simply faster. It's cool they offer both though.

Not necessarily always true. If I remember correctly, he also said that given the choice he would have chosen the manual but since all his practice laps were done in the auto (before the manual was available) he stuck with it during his record-setting lap. I don't know if he later tried the Ring in the manual or not, but I would love to hear what time he got.

Tony

SD Detail
07-13-10, 12:27 PM
I'm a Porsche fanatic (own a '97 993TT and '92 MB 500E), and I cant' get myself attracted to the styling of any Porsche built in the past decade, except the Carrera GT. I'd take the CTS-V over any other sedan, given the price point. I'm still amazed that the CTS-V even exists.

Very few people know the Benz 500e was hand built by Porsche, what a great car! And IMO the 993 Turbo is the most beautiful porsche ever built!

JFJr
07-13-10, 01:39 PM
So the automatic is faster 0-60 (3.9sec) and it provided the fastest time for GM at the Nurburgring. The 6-manual is an honorable choice for those of us who like to row through the gears, but the automatic is simply faster. It's cool they offer both though.Incorrect, the auto is speed-limited to 175 mph, the manual is not and is capable of 191 mph, so the manual is faster.

JFJr
07-13-10, 01:41 PM
Not necessarily always true. If I remember correctly, he also said that given the choice he would have chosen the manual but since all his practice laps were done in the auto (before the manual was available) he stuck with it during his record-setting lap. I don't know if he later tried the Ring in the manual or not, but I would love to hear what time he got.

TonyCorrect, Tony, he simply hadn't spent enough time in the manual version to learn all the proper shift points, etc., on the course when the time came for the run. I think that all of us driving the manual version would like to see a follow-up run by Heinricy with the manual car after he has prepared himself, but he's retired and that may never happen.

I don't want to restart the argument about acceleration past 100 mph, but one might ask if the manual car would have hit more than 175 mph on the final straight, since it is not speed-limited like the auto version, and some on this forum believe that the additional rwhp in the manual version would make a difference under the circumstances.

Jud

Tony407
07-13-10, 04:44 PM
I don't want to restart the argument about acceleration past 100 mph, but one might ask if the manual car would have hit more than 175 mph on the final straight, since it is not speed-limited like the auto version, and some on this forum believe that the additional rwhp in the manual version would make a difference under the circumstances.

Jud

I suspect it might have, and any advantages the automatic would have had in "quickness" in the 1/4 mile (whether that be in launches and/or faster shifts) would most likely have been eliminated on a long course like the Ring.

Tony

wfo
07-13-10, 04:54 PM
For cripes sake, you can't even compare the two cars.

Ok they both do, have 4 doors. That should be good enough for a comparo...NOT!

dons
07-13-10, 07:16 PM
For cripes sake, you can't even compare the two cars.

Ok they both do, have 4 doors. That should be good enough for a comparo...NOT!


I suspect it might have, and any advantages the automatic would have had in "quickness" in the 1/4 mile (whether that be in launches and/or faster shifts) would most likely have been eliminated on a long course like the Ring.

Tony

I was at the Texas Mile in March, and saw a brand new Panamera Turbo run the mile. It ran four times, and its times were: (1) 166.1, (2) 167.8, (3) 169.5, and 4th run at 169.6. It ran in the Unlimited Race Car with Turbo class. I ran my V2 autiomatic (had a few power adders on her and ran in the Unlimited Street Car with Unlimited Power Adders class) and my first run was 172.2. DonS

cbloveday
07-13-10, 07:37 PM
I'll probably regret this, but speed isn't everything.

I have enever seen the inside but have seen 3 on the road. Most recently, I saw one at the porsche automobile association club meet @ Pleasant Run Resort last week.

My obervation was that the interior was a class above our cars and it reminded me of an elongated porsche. Personally, I would own one and I considered one, briefly.

I just got out of my M6 and found that paying 105m for a European car did not get me fit and finish I had hoped for.

So got out of the M6 and into the V and have been very happy thus far with vehicle performance, modding, and service costs.

I would still like to own a mercedes, or Porsche in my lifetime. I drool over the 430 scuderia, but alas, could never bring myself to drop that kind of coin.

GMX322V S/C
07-13-10, 07:45 PM
Correct, Tony, he simply hadn't spent enough time in the manual version to learn all the proper shift points, etc., on the course when the time came for the run. I think that all of us driving the manual version would like to see a follow-up run by Heinricy with the manual car after he has prepared himself, but he's retired and that may never happen.

I don't want to restart the argument about acceleration past 100 mph, but one might ask if the manual car would have hit more than 175 mph on the final straight, since it is not speed-limited like the auto version, and some on this forum believe that the additional rwhp in the manual version would make a difference under the circumstances.

JudHe just touched the limiter in the auto on the long straight, so no, the manual's higher top speed would not have made a significant difference in this case. A manual transmissioned car was chasing Heinricy, driven by another development engineer whom is no slouch. John said his colleague was "pretty busy." Different driver, but nonetheless the manual was obviously slower around the track, otherwise they would've declared the manual's time and not the auto's. Apparently a video of the manual's lap was made, but as far as I know, never released to the public.

BeagleBrains
07-13-10, 11:32 PM
The CTS V Coupe has a wider track and lower body stance than the V Sedan.
I have not seen any Nurburgring runs with the V Coupe. How about that, GM?:annoyed:

Easy2speed
07-14-10, 12:30 AM
He meant that the manual, with higher whp, would have been accelerating harder and gone past 175mph. You can sure tell who the contentious automatic owners are.

GMX322V S/C
07-14-10, 01:28 AM
...yes, they're as easy to spot as some pompous manual owners are, so why bring it up?

mugatu22
07-14-10, 03:05 AM
Incorrect, the auto is speed-limited to 175 mph, the manual is not and is capable of 191 mph, so the manual is faster.

Ugh, are we arguing semantics here or are we discussing which car is 'quicker' or 'faster' in both acceleration and 'Ring lap times? The automatic CTS-V has repeatedly proven "faster." I love manual transmissions...but the facts are that the auto CTS-V is FASTER in 0-60 times and on the Nurburgring. Why is this so difficult for the manual owners to comprehend? Is it b/c they believe they made the wrong decision? Knock yourself out guys, the 6M trans rocks. It's just that the 6auto is faster. Oops.


He just touched the limiter in the auto on the long straight, so no, the manual's higher top speed would not have made a significant difference in this case. A manual transmissioned car was chasing Heinricy, driven by another development engineer whom is no slouch. John said his colleague was "pretty busy." Different driver, but nonetheless the manual was obviously slower around the track, otherwise they would've declared the manual's time and not the auto's. Apparently a video of the manual's lap was made, but as far as I know, never released to the public.

THIS

Why would GM ship 2-3 engineers, 2 vehicles and all of that manpower overseas to the Nurburgring and then NOT extract the fastest times out of the vehicles there? GMX's post hits the points.

Why don't we argue whether the black plastic trim sucks or not, at least we have a gray area for interpretation here. The manual vs auto debate isn't much of a debate when the auto has proven to be the 'faster' option.

SleepTight
07-14-10, 03:39 AM
Agreed. Can't we just get back to shaking our heads that Porsche had to design a car that literally costs more than twice as much as a V when fully optioned up in order to beat our car around the Nurburgring by less than 4 seconds in an unofficial lap?

Manual or Auto, the V pulls down BMW/Mercedes/Porsche's lederhosen and laughs at them.

translux
07-14-10, 09:47 AM
I seriously considered a Panamera and had a couple opportunities for an extended test drives. I was very impressed with the performance of the car. The interior is fantastic and the optional $9k Burmester audio system is the best OEM solution I have ever heard. The exterior styling is certainly unique but I was ok with it.
Then I drove a manual V and quickly forgot about the Porsche.
The price delta of nearly a $100k was certainly a factor but in the end the V was a much better drivers car for me.

TMC CL65
07-14-10, 11:31 AM
I have seen a bunch of Panameras now. I honestly think the front looks really nice...dare I say even very Carrera GT-esqe. The interior looks inviting and elegant. I am not going to knock Porsche for offering a ton of performance options on the car...how many CTS-V owners would criticize GM, if it offered a $5K LS9 option....or ZR1's ceramic brakes for $8K??? The Panamera is a great car...I just absolutely despise its rear styling.

Tom

translux
07-14-10, 02:06 PM
Its not so much the rear view its when you see it from a side/quarter rear view that looks hideous.
It looks like two different cars grafted together.

http://0.tqn.com/d/cars/1/0/1/0/2/ag_10panamera_leftrear.jpg

Tony407
07-14-10, 03:15 PM
It looks like two different cars grafted together.


Like a miniature Porsche stretched limo. Yuck.

Tony

Umrswimr
07-15-10, 09:20 AM
Its not so much the rear view its when you see it from a side/quarter rear view that looks hideous.
It looks like two different cars grafted together.

http://0.tqn.com/d/cars/1/0/1/0/2/ag_10panamera_leftrear.jpg
It actually looks a LOT better in person. I rolled by a Panamera Turbo yesterday on the tollway and I had to admit it looked pretty good. :yesnod:

DrumStix
07-15-10, 10:38 AM
Went to the dealer last night to look at a Cayenne. I parked perpendicular to a row of like 10 Panamera's with the V, blocking them in and letting people stare, then I walked the lot. :thumbsup: IMO, the 2011 Cayenne will make a nice work car.

mowershop
07-15-10, 07:31 PM
Parked right next to a panamera at cleveland hopkins this morning nice wheels and brakes but next to the V that is one ugly car! jmo

rphctsv
07-16-10, 01:05 AM
check this out

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/trEFwmdLUR8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/trEFwmdLUR8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Rolex
07-16-10, 03:22 PM
check this out

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/trEFwmdLUR8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/trEFwmdLUR8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


Your link-foo is weak grasshopper. Click on the YOUTUBE button and copy and paste the alpha numeric portion of the DIRECT LINK that follows v=

eg: your video is:

htp:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=trEFwmdLUR8

so copy this part: trEFwmdLUR8

Paste between these

and you get [YOUTUBE]trEFwmdLUR8

gnxs
07-16-10, 03:37 PM
Useless video (for comparison purposes between the two cars).

Luna.
07-16-10, 03:38 PM
The automatic CTS-V has repeatedly proven "faster." I love manual transmissions...but the facts are that the auto CTS-V is FASTER in 0-60 times and on the Nurburgring. Why is this so difficult for the manual owners to comprehend? Is it b/c they believe they made the wrong decision? Knock yourself out guys, the 6M trans rocks. It's just that the 6auto is faster. Oops.

Faulty, blanket assessment.

You've done this now a few times & it gets stranger each and every time.

As for me, I know the auto is generally quicker through, say, the 1/4 mile. The interesting part for me is WHY, which is a wholly different discussion than not "comprehending" it.

gnxs
07-16-10, 04:45 PM
The interesting part for me is WHY, which is a wholly different discussion than not "comprehending" it.
I know we (the forum) discussed this in another thread ad nauseam. Do you still not understand why or do you just find it interesting? I'm not sure how to interpret your first phrase above? Just trying to understand whether you're still trying to determine this or if you've already put it to bed.

paul34
07-16-10, 07:46 PM
Doesn't matter how fast it is - you can't outrun ugly :)

Luna.
07-16-10, 10:02 PM
I know we (the forum) discussed this in another thread ad nauseam. Do you still not understand why or do you just find it interesting? I'm not sure how to interpret your first phrase above? Just trying to understand whether you're still trying to determine this or if you've already put it to bed.


Oh, I definitely think that it remains an open item, yes, but that wasn't the point of my post.

My point was that hopefully mugatu22 will be a little more careful in his comments, for he's made a bad assumption/statement in a few posts now and he seems better than that.

Apologies for not being clear. I just added my comments at the end so as to hopefully avoid any miscommunication. It appears, however, I added some confusion. Sorry about that.

thebigjimsho
07-24-10, 10:35 PM
Its not so much the rear view its when you see it from a side/quarter rear view that looks hideous.
It looks like two different cars grafted together.

http://0.tqn.com/d/cars/1/0/1/0/2/ag_10panamera_leftrear.jpg
Agreed. From straight ahead or straight behind, it's pretty good looking. But that rear 3/4 is hideous.

thebigjimsho
07-24-10, 10:39 PM
Oh, I definitely think that it remains an open item, yes, but that wasn't the point of my post.

My point was that hopefully mugatu22 will be a little more careful in his comments, for he's made a bad assumption/statement in a few posts now and he seems better than that.

Apologies for not being clear. I just added my comments at the end so as to hopefully avoid any miscommunication. It appears, however, I added some confusion. Sorry about that.
Ah, who cares about confusion? I love how guys say it's the other group being upset or stubborn. It's none of that. The auto is faster to 60. That carries it through the 1/4 mile as it does the Panamera Turbo. But there is nothing documented that the auto is faster on a road course. They ran the auto at the 'Ring as it was the more comfortable car. Heinrecy is the most accomplished and had more time in the auto. He never ran the manual, so mugatu's argument has no valid comparable data.