Need I say more? What are your thoughts on this?

The CTS already competes with the ES in price and size. Yes, the ES is a FWD, "softer" car than the CTS, but the price, features and size are close. Unless they plan on marketing the XTS as a softer alternative to the CTS and make the CTS an edgier car, I see the XTS just cannibalizing CTS sales.

The CTS will become aligned with the 5-Series and GS while a new entry-level Caddy will take on the 3-Series, IS and the rest...

I know this strikes everyone as terrible news but there may be a little light at the end of the tunnel. If the XTS is going after the Lexus ES (which I know Buick should really be doing), than maybe Cadillac realizes that Lexus is a good target. To begin with, Lexus has become a success largely because they made vehicles that Cadillac used to. Big, comfortable, soft-riding, quiet and extremely luxurious. Cadillac used to make these better than anyone. When GM decided to get cheap and Cadillac rested on it's laurels, Lexus came right in and stole every single Cadillac customer that wasn't a die-hard enthusiast.

So while this isn't what Cadillac needs "right now" - maybe this is what they need in order to pave the way for the future. If this means they'll have a good competitor to the Lexus GS460 and eventually a good competitor to the Lexus LS460, than things may be looking up. Cadillac already has a good competitor to the Lexus RX350. And I have a feeling that whatever replaces the Escalade is going to be truly comfortable, luxurious and filled with the kind of features luxury buyers want/need.

Like I said - I know this isn't great news for us "enthusiasts" - but it may be good news for everybody else - which accounts for about 99% of automobile buyers in the world...

I agree about the 99% of buyers statement. If everyone were enthusiasts, the RX and ES wouldn't be the sales success they are.

I think Cadillac would be smart to use platform sharing to build a high quality entry level car to slot below the CTS. The two cars I just mentioned are both rebadged products that sell very well due to their price and perceived status, so there's no reason Cadillac can't do the same- the key is that they do enough to differentiate it from the Buick model (no repeat of the '99 Escalade, please). Toss some higher quality gauges and interior trim, more sculpted body panels and a creamier ride in it, and I think it would be a winner.

The CTS has long been marketed as a 5 series at a 3 series price, but that's led only to confusion. People think it's smaller than it is due to the size of the competitors in its class, so slotting a new "starting at $29,995" car below the CTS would more clearly define its role.

The next CTS is growing a bit - and Cadillac is really going to line it up with the 5-Series. The price will probably go up a bit as well - and that'll make it very clear who the competition really is. Whatever this 3-Series competitor is, they really need to make it a winner. I don't think the current CTS design is attracting the kind of youthful buyers the 3-Series does for BMW. Cadillac needs to think of something different. You and I surely love the CTS - but I really don't think young people are very impressed with it.. Generally...

There's a lot of kids in the 08+ CTS forum, and a ton of them in the 03-07 forum. You didn't see that 5 years ago, so something's working.

I'm sure that HERE there are plenty of kids with these cars - but I never, ever, ever see them just riding around out on the street. If we're to expect them ANYWHERE, it's here... We need to see them - there.

Is this just a theory, or is their substantial evidence that supports this? It was my understanding, according to sources familiar with the XTS, that this vehicle was much larger in size and still noticeably larger than the current market CTS. Granted the drivetrain is what you have already specified, I wouldn't think it would target the ES Lexus as it would easy outclassed by the Cadillac.....

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



Need I say more? What are your thoughts on this?

I think this is all hearsay at the moment. But for now, it's all we have. I "think" the sources have been correct more often than not in the past.

So what does everybody think of the great possibility that the Cadillac XTS will also compete directly with the Buick LaCrosse (the new one)? Should Buick be aiming for the Lexus ES350?

I think the Cadillac XTS is already shaping up to be a failure.
If this rumored vehicle is the future of Cadillac it would have been better had GM allowed the brand to go out along with Pontiac. They finally straightened the brand out and now they want to take a giant step backwards. First no more Vs and now new large FWD platforms? I bet they're laughing their asses off in Munich.

I think the Cadillac XTS is already shaping up to be a failure.
If this rumored vehicle is the future of Cadillac it would have been better had GM allowed the brand to go out along with Pontiac. They finally straightened the brand out and now they want to take a giant step backwards. First no more Vs and now new large FWD platforms? I bet they're laughing their asses off in Munich.
I agree.. I do think there's time for a lot to change between now and 2012 - but if things stay the same, I'm really not liking where this is going. This car should be a Buick - and it is - it's a (yet-to-be-released) 2010 LaCrosse.. I'm not sure how well the Lincoln MKS is doing but I don't think people generally feel it's a good replacement for the Town Car. The XTS might be a decent replacement for the STS - but it's probably going to be underpowered. GM has a twin-turbo 3.6L DI laying around that gets 435 HP but I'm not sure if the rest of the drivetrain can handle that kind of power.

Here is the list of vehicles using the same Epsilon II platform:

2009 Buick Regal (China)
2009 Opel Insignia
2010 Buick LaCrosse
2010 Saab 9-5
2011 Cadillac XTS
2011 Buick Regal (U.S. Version)
2013 Chevrolet Impala

I just don't see how a Cadillac fits in with the rest...

Cadillac is rapidly moving toward badge engineering with luxury cars sharing the same platforms and plants as mass-market brands. Ford is doing the same with the MKZ / Fusion, MKX / Edge, MKS / Taurus, MKT / Flex. I generally don't care for this. My MKZ looks too much like a Fusion. Granted, it was quite a bit cheaper than a similar CTS.

I think the XTS could very well be the Chinese SLS. Think about it, its the STS extended a bit, so it'd also play in the DTS area.

I think the XTS could very well be the Chinese SLS. Think about it, its the STS extended a bit, so it'd also play in the DTS area.
It's certainly possible.. You're not the first person who's assumed that...

I think the XTS could very well be the Chinese SLS. Think about it, its the STS extended a bit, so it'd also play in the DTS area.

That would be real nice. The SLS has always been the car Cadillac needs to show up its competitors in the E-segment market.

I'd also hope for styling that resembles a sleeker up-sized Sigma II CTS, but honestly I'll be happy with anything that's not built on a FWD platform.

I also think the SLS is a better platform for that size competition. The sigma is a good platform that can handle RWD, AWD, V6 and V8. If I were Cadillac, I would keep that platform to make something nice to compete in that segment. The SLS proves it can be big enough to also replace DTS. The current CTS proves it can be stylish enough.
That would at least be a better choice than throwing all out and design some kind of Cadillac on a new Epsilon II platform which apparently can only handle a V6! And then hope the people will buy it...

I just hope for Cadillac the XTS on E2 is a hoax! Or at least a mistake they take back before they really launch development on it.

Jalopnik is supposedly going to see the XTS concept in person tomorrow, as well as a new model available in both sedan AND coupe to compete with the 3 series.

http://jalopnik.com/5333978/cadillac-xts-is-the-new-stsdts

...and from Joel Feder's Twitter page:



First #Cadillac unveiled was #CTSsportwagon

Second #Cadillac unveiled was a small #3series fighter will be coupe & sedan. Wow! Great looking

Third #Cadillac unveiled was fullsize dts/sts replacement. Very big. Very hot!!

The plot thickens......

As I mentioned elsewhere, the XTS will be on a stretched and widened Buick LaCrosse platform that'll more than likely be able to fit a V8 - we're just not sure where this V8 is coming from.. It'll be RWD and about 200 inches long...

As I mentioned elsewhere, the XTS will be on a stretched and widened Buick LaCrosse platform that'll more than likely be able to fit a V8 - we're just not sure where this V8 is coming from.. It'll be RWD and about 200 inches long...

That sounds more assuring. I am also very curious about the new BLS (BMW 3 fighter). Coupe and sedan already in concept. Wow! I can't wait!
Sounds like Cadillac is on the good track again.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the XTS will be on a stretched and widened Buick LaCrosse platform that'll more than likely be able to fit a V8 - we're just not sure where this V8 is coming from.. It'll be RWD and about 200 inches long...


That sounds good, but 200 for a deVille is a little short, considering mine is about 205. 5 inches doesn't sound like a lot, but it can make a huge difference.

Go to www.gminsidenews.com to find out some exciting news about the XTS. I think the jist of the article says that will take the design cues of the Sixteen. I think it sounds real exciting.

Also on the same site, it stated that GM stated that the Chevy Volt will be rated at 230 MPG in the city.

Quote from AUTOBLOG....


The XTS, on the other hand, is huge and carries a lot of the design first seen on the celebrated Sixteen concept (seen above and in high-res gallery below), which means it's stunning in person. Given that a V16 is out of the question, the hood is obviously much shorter than the concept's. The flanks have more curvature than the current DTS and a character line with an undercut lies just below the belt-line.

Welburn declined to give specific timing except to say that both cars were coming soon. We already know that DTS is ending production soon to make way for the Volt at the Detroit Hamtramck plant. There was also no indication of powertrains, although the ATS is likely to be powered by four- and six-cylinder engines. The XTS may use the next generation small block V8 that debuts next year. END QUOTE


Texas Jim

Good news so far. Speculation about the drivetrain still. But I just don't see the problem with FWD when it offers AWD. People should calm down and stop nagging about it. FWD is a good concept for a big cosy cruiser. Look at A8.

So, maybe we will see the rebirth of the Seville/Eldorado as the flagship? That would be exciting!

So, everyone is naming it the ATS. Is that name actually confirmed? I believe to have understood, that GM just called it an entry level Cadillac. It might as well be a new BLS, since that is the size of a BMW 3. ATS was earlier announced to be more BMW 1 size...

I am excited about this news anyway and I am looking forward to see the pictures!

Good news so far. Speculation about the drivetrain still. But I just don't see the problem with FWD when it offers AWD. People should calm down and stop nagging about it. FWD is a good concept for a big cosy cruiser. Look at A8.


The A8 comes standard with quattro AWD and has never been as successful as the S-class, 7-series, and Lexus LS. If Cadillac wants to be taken seriously, they need to be able to aim higher eventually than the STS/DTS. Their flagship needs to be as good as the Lexus LS while matching it in price and giving it bold styling and personality.

The A8 comes standard with quattro AWD and has never been as successful as the S-class, 7-series, and Lexus LS. If Cadillac wants to be taken seriously, they need to be able to aim higher eventually than the STS/DTS. Their flagship needs to be as good as the Lexus LS while matching it in price and giving it bold styling and personality.

??? no, A8 is standard FWD. At least the platform is FWD/AWD. In europe I see more A8 than 7-series. Especially as VIP cars.

And the XTS is not intended as flagship, even though it will be the largest sedan for now. The DTS was not the flagship either.

??? no, A8 is standard FWD. At least the platform is FWD/AWD. In europe I see more A8 than 7-series. Especially as VIP cars.

And the XTS is not intended as flagship, even though it will be the largest sedan for now. The DTS was not the flagship either.

Ok, I missed that you are in Germany. In the states, the standard A8 is the 4.2 quattro. And there are many more 7-series here than A8's by far.

Cadillac won't improve its image by selling full-size FWD cars here because that puts it out of the league of the established imports. A FWD XTS might compare favorably against the Acura RL, Volvo S80, and Lincoln MKS, but Cadillac needs to aim right for the E-class and eventually higher.

How did I just double post? I hit edit.......

I don't care what anyone says, I think the A8 is a MUCH better car then the 7-series. Both styling (interior and exterior) and technical aspects.

If the XTS is what it is promised to be, I'll be on it like white on rice. AWD would set me fine.

I don't know HOW the Audi A8 is a much better car than the 750i... In any event, I do like BOTH cars and I have plenty of respect for Audi. Maybe the interior is better. I don't know. But I think appearances are very subjective.. Technologically, I really don't find the Audi to have any real advantages over the BMW.

I know Cadillac needs a 7-Series, A8, LS and S-Series competitor - and I want one.. But I think ANY improvement will have Cadillac heading in the right direction. I think an AWD car the size of the current DTS with advanced technology will sell just fine.. But it NEEDS a V8 or turbo V6 as an option.

Ok, I missed that you are in Germany. In the states, the standard A8 is the 4.2 quattro. And there are many more 7-series here than A8's by far.

Cadillac won't improve its image by selling full-size FWD cars here because that puts it out of the league of the established imports. A FWD XTS might compare favorably against the Acura RL, Volvo S80, and Lincoln MKS, but Cadillac needs to aim right for the E-class and eventually higher.

When Cadillac finally gets their foreign PR properly set, they should export the XTS as well. A FWD/AWD big luxury sedan could do well opposed to E-class, Volvo S80, Audi A8, VW Phaeton (or now new Passat), ...

Today I got a 2002 STS from the workshop while my CTS is getting TÜV'ed. There are not many STS' in Europe, but at least they were sold without any PR. The DTS never made it to Europe, but the XTS might make it here.

The XTS will be closer in size to the Mercedes S-Class.. It's a good bit bigger than the E-Class... The Passat is tiny in comparison.. But the Volvo S80, Audi A8 and Volkswagen Phaeton are all similar in size...

3 Basic rules to a successfull organization;

1/Know your customers and excell in mtg their needs
2/Know your competitors and excell in differentiating yourself based on your customer needs
3/Know your own organization and never, ever, ever have customer facing functions take a "back seat" to operations........operations will never ever do something which forces them to put in some effort!

Remember, Marketing led, sales/customer "driven". Executive boobs in operations functions never have and never will get it!

:rant2:

Interesting here and here are my comments. Caddy to me should do Caddy. I don't know why they want to abandon such a good seller (even today in an older car) in the DTS. Last I looked the mature market is going to explode and they like big comfy cars with V-8s, gas be damned. The DTS does big luxury well and clearly has whooped the Town Cars behind. Why discontinue it? Why drop the name again? From Deville to DTS to XTS? WHat? The Escalade has done huge for them. Its not b/c its sporty!! Is b/c its a big stylish, V-8 powered Caddy!

The STS has evolved well too. They just need to put the same focus they put in the CTS into the STS And make it a true D class flagship vs the 7/LS/S etc. Not sure why they want to stop both cars, drop both names for a new one.

Caddy DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT try to do the same German theme. Lexus has the ES and it sells very well and has attracted a lot of previous Buick/Caddy customers. Not everyone wants a harsh riding car, a sporty car or a car with 45 series tires!!

I say XTS = DTS

I know this strikes everyone as terrible news but there may be a little light at the end of the tunnel. If the XTS is going after the Lexus ES (which I know Buick should really be doing), than maybe Cadillac realizes that Lexus is a good target. To begin with, Lexus has become a success largely because they made vehicles that Cadillac used to. Big, comfortable, soft-riding, quiet and extremely luxurious. Cadillac used to make these better than anyone. When GM decided to get cheap and Cadillac rested on it's laurels, Lexus came right in and stole every single Cadillac customer that wasn't a die-hard enthusiast.

So while this isn't what Cadillac needs "right now" - maybe this is what they need in order to pave the way for the future. If this means they'll have a good competitor to the Lexus GS460 and eventually a good competitor to the Lexus LS460, than things may be looking up. Cadillac already has a good competitor to the Lexus RX350. And I have a feeling that whatever replaces the Escalade is going to be truly comfortable, luxurious and filled with the kind of features luxury buyers want/need.

Like I said - I know this isn't great news for us "enthusiasts" - but it may be good news for everybody else - which accounts for about 99% of automobile buyers in the world...


The Escalade is going on Lambda Platform.

it NEEDS a V8 turbo as an option.

Fixed :2thumbs:

Interesting here and here are my comments. Caddy to me should do Caddy. I don't know why they want to abandon such a good seller (even today in an older car) in the DTS. Last I looked the mature market is going to explode and they like big comfy cars with V-8s, gas be damned. The DTS does big luxury well and clearly has whooped the Town Cars behind. Why discontinue it? Why drop the name again? From Deville to DTS to XTS? WHat? The Escalade has done huge for them. Its not b/c its sporty!! Is b/c its a big stylish, V-8 powered Caddy!

The STS has evolved well too. They just need to put the same focus they put in the CTS into the STS And make it a true D class flagship vs the 7/LS/S etc. Not sure why they want to stop both cars, drop both names for a new one.

Caddy DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT try to do the same German theme. Lexus has the ES and it sells very well and has attracted a lot of previous Buick/Caddy customers. Not everyone wants a harsh riding car, a sporty car or a car with 45 series tires!!
I agree entirely. I don't know why they can't leave the names alone.. The new "bigger" CTS that's coming in a few years should be the STS. The XTS should be the DTS. The upcoming ATS should be the CTS.. It's all so simple but they need to make it confusing...

In other news, the Super-Epsilon Cadillac, codenamed GM 166, will be Cadillac's "flagship" until a proper large RWD sedan can be developed off Gen III CTS hardware.

From Motor Trend (http://www.motortrend.com/news/2009/112_0911_gm_future_car_lineup/index.html):

2012 XTS: Cadillac has been working on a convergence of the STS and DTS, but the Super-Epsilon-based FWD/AWD large sedan, handsome as it is, is not an STS/DTS convergence. It replaces only the DTS. The profile sports a very fast c-pillar and powerful, masculine swag line and the grille features the kind of high-cost detail previewed by the Converj concept. ATS and XTS are working names so far. Cadillac also noted it's working on an all-new RWD CTS, which should launch about the '13 model year. As the Mk II CTS continues to gain traction in the luxury car market, expect the Mk III CTS to grow longer and take over from the XTS status as Cadillac's flagship. Greater use of high-strength steel, a cost Cadillac can afford to absorb, would allow the CTS to grow in size without adding the same proportion of pounds.

any pics?

Motor Trend (http://www.motortrend.com/news/2009/112_0911_gm_future_car_lineup/index.html):

2012 XTS: Cadillac has been working on a convergence of the STS and DTS, but the Super-Epsilon-based FWD/AWD large sedan, handsome as it is, is not an STS/DTS convergence. It replaces only the DTS. The profile sports a very fast c-pillar and powerful, masculine swag line and the grille features the kind of high-cost detail previewed by the Converj concept. ATS and XTS are working names so far. Cadillac also noted it's working on an all-new RWD CTS, which should launch about the '13 model year. As the Mk II CTS continues to gain traction in the luxury car market, expect the Mk III CTS to grow longer and take over from the XTS status as Cadillac's flagship. Greater use of high-strength steel, a cost Cadillac can afford to absorb, would allow the CTS to grow in size without adding the same proportion of pounds.

This sounds like it would be an awesome car to build on the Sigma II or Zeta platform. Why does GM/Cadillac insist on using the plebian family sedan Epsilon chassis for their high-end division?

Could this have any chance to replace my Town Car? Probably not...

I don't know HOW the Audi A8 is a much better car than the 750i... In any event, I do like BOTH cars and I have plenty of respect for Audi. Maybe the interior is better. I don't know. But I think appearances are very subjective.. Technologically, I really don't find the Audi to have any real advantages over the BMW.

I know Cadillac needs a 7-Series, A8, LS and S-Series competitor - and I want one.. But I think ANY improvement will have Cadillac heading in the right direction. I think an AWD car the size of the current DTS with advanced technology will sell just fine.. But it NEEDS a V8 or turbo V6 as an option.

It's much better in handling...

any pics?

Would love to see pix