View Full Version : Build: Cadillac 500cid

06-25-09, 10:48 PM
So here she is:
1975 Cadillac 500cid

So after a 7 hour round trip almost to Canada and 100 bucks later, its in the garage. I'm not exactly sure how big I want to go with this but it should be a strong build. I have a TH350 to go with it. I plan on putting it in my 90 FWB 350 unless I can find a coupe for a post recession price. But there are some things I'm unsure about...like the new motor/tranny combo. Switching from a fuel injected 350/700r4 combo to a carbed 500/TH350 has me worried about the wiring and the axle/rearend. Is there gonna be a need for a new axle and crossmember? Wiring is probably gonna be a whole other story... Any suggestion would be helpful. Does any body know where the casting numbers are on the block or a nice website with info about the motor?

06-25-09, 11:56 PM
I didnt even think to check THIS site for more info. Google search brought me right back to the 500/472 threads here. One day I'll find the instruction manual for this brain of mine...probably missing pages

06-26-09, 12:00 AM
I didnt even think to check THIS site for more info. Google search brought me right back to the 500/472 threads here. One day I'll find the instruction manual for this brain of mine...probably missing pages

lol Yeah. I've figured out that if there is a question about a Cadillac ANYTHING, the answer is probably on this site 99% of the time.

06-26-09, 04:14 PM
I'm going to keep this thread here (and not the big block engine section) because this will go in a RWD car, and lots of members have shown interest in the swap.

You will need a TH400 or a 4L80E behind that 500. A BOP TH400 will bolt up but lack OD, the 4L80 will need an adapter plate, and an electronic controller (and likely some floor pan massaging).

To get it in:
- mounts from an 77-81
- oil pan from an 80-81
- grind the passenger side a arm bolt where it will hit the exhaust manifold

The rear axle (the GM 8.5) is strong enough. I would try and pick up a 94-96 B or D crossmember and adapt it so you can run true duals. There are a couple of companies and websites out there that deal with 500 Cads. At a minimum, put a better cam in it.

How about using the Chevy 454 TBI, and a custom chip in your stock computer and making it FI? All you would have to do is put all the sensors from the 350 into the 500.

Angry Matt
06-26-09, 04:45 PM
Check out these sites also...



MTS has a lot of good stuff for these motors and good tips on both sites.

06-26-09, 05:23 PM
And, the most important question: are you SURE it's a 500?

06-26-09, 05:58 PM
And, the most important question: are you SURE it's a 500?

I was actually surprised this question didn't come up sooner. lol

06-26-09, 11:25 PM
I was thinking about different motor options but the caddy 500 means more to me. Where are the casting numbers? The only one I found is on the intake...605061 and the heads say A8. For the trannies, I have a TH350 and a 700 with a shift kit. If I use the 700 with an adapter plate, will I have to change anything at the rear? I already have true duals going down the passanger side but wouldnt mind an H pipe. Still unsure about fuel delivery, I still have that spreadbore/TBI adapter...?? Can I make the TBI spit more? So many questions because I want this to be my pride and joy. Would an 80 coupe do the trick. I found one but the body is too bad to use.

06-27-09, 11:04 AM
Pull the pan and measure the bore and stroke. Best way to determine if it is a 500 (or a 472, or a 425).

That 700 likely won't survive behind the 500. However, since you have it, you could give it a try. If you baby it, it might live. You would already have the adapter to use on a 4L80...

Like I said, you could try getting a truck 454 TBI, and use that adapter plate. Even those injectors might be small for the 500. Raising the pressure might help, or, you may be able to get higher flow injectors to go on that throttle body. Someone on the truck forums will know. Once that is accomplished, you keep all the wiring from your 350 and use it on the 500. Then, you contact a custom chip burner, tell them all your specs, and have them burn a chip for your computer.

06-27-09, 11:31 AM
Oh, I see. I thought you meant the whole 454 instead of the 500. That TBI sounds like a great idea. What about the computer from a 454 TBI truck? I once looked into a custom chip and it was about 4 million dollars. When you say raise the pressure, are you talking about the vacuum pressure?

06-27-09, 12:20 PM
Yes, I mean use the 500, but with the 454 TBI. It would be very cool.

The computer for your 350 is very close to the truck one. You could use the truck computer. Believe it will plug right in.

No, I am talking fuel pressure.

Check out http://www.tbichips.com/ for custom chip info...

06-28-09, 10:34 AM
Gee, csbuckn, you're a busy guy, I can't keep up with your projects. So you're giving up on the 350 swap? Is that one of those AC Delco floor jacks you have there? I have been very close to buying one of those. How do you like it?

I'm not to crazy about Jay's fuel injection plans. That's going to make things much more complicated and the 454 SS had how much HP? Less than 250 I believe. A properly adjusted Quadrajet can run almost as smooth as fuel injection and once adjusted won't need any attention for thousands of miles.

What's with the red valve covers? I thought most Cadillac engines were blue; especially mid 70's. I hope it's a 500 but I don't recall ANY red ones.

06-28-09, 11:13 AM
That's going to make things much more complicated and the 454 SS had how much HP? Less than 250 I believe.

All the wiring is there already. He has a TBI 350 in there. And, check the HP on the 75 500. 190 HP ;)

06-28-09, 11:02 PM
I still have the Olds 350 on the stand. I have to finish that first before I can start the 500 but the 350s piston rings are giving me problems, I thought they came pre-gaped but I was wrong. That damn jack blew a seal in mid lift, its a Roush Racing jack. Can only get about 4 inches up but I may fix it if I need another. I know the motor is at least a 472/500 because of the design of the crank end. I've been reading on the TBI idea and read that stock 454 TBI can make over 400hp before it runs out of air but the fuel pump is only capable of 300 max. This gives me hope for the TBI setup with a new pump. I was thinking the stock intake, a one inch open spacer(mainly to help with even distribution), and the TBI setup.

06-29-09, 12:23 AM
That's weird that you're having ring trouble on the Olds. Mine were fine and went on easy. What company did you get them from? Mine are Federal Mogul or Sealed Power. I got it with the Summit Racing re-ring kit.

07-02-09, 12:06 AM
Sorry about that...:hitstick:

So would an oil pan from a 77-79 deville work or is it just 80-81? Right now it has a mid-sump pan.

07-02-09, 10:22 AM
Believe it has to be the 80 and up 368 pan. You could get the 368 until 85 in commercial chassis, as well.

07-02-09, 11:43 PM
I always heard the 77-79 425 pan and pick-up would work. Try a search on that because I'm sure I've read it several times.

07-03-09, 10:44 AM
Does anybody know where to get motor mounts for an 80 brougham/deville? New or used? I cant find them anywhere and theres no part cars around yet. Maybe someone here has a dead 368.

07-03-09, 10:44 AM
Might want to talk with this guy...


07-03-09, 11:08 AM
Does anybody know where to get motor mounts for an 80 brougham/deville? New or used? I cant find them anywhere and theres no part cars around yet. Maybe someone here has a dead 368.

www.rockauto.com looks like them have them.

07-03-09, 11:22 AM
www.rockauto.com looks like them have them.

I think I need the ones that are on the engine, not the ones on the frame. Are they called something different? MTS didnt answer the phone.

07-05-09, 07:06 PM
I have been having a hard time to find engine mounts too. All the parts places have the frame mounts listed as motor mounts but no actual engine mounts. Every Google search brings up hundreds of frame mounts but no engine mounts. I don't know what else they would be called.

07-11-09, 01:08 AM
So I got a parts car, 77 deville. The motor mounts look good. The oil pan looks like it will fit. Would the pass exhaust manifold work without any mods to the control arm? They look the same though. Also, I couldnt find the SPID codes on the trunk, are they somewhere else? I'm trying to see what gears are in the rear.

07-11-09, 11:27 AM
Your 77 rear end has 2.28 gears.. unless it has the towing package.. then it has 2.73's.....does it have disc brakes in the rear? the only rear I found with discs in the rear was a posi...almost every part you will need to put that 500 in that 90 FWB can be taken off that 77....

07-15-09, 11:17 AM
I'm trying to figure out what tranny is in the 77, did it come with options or just a 400.

07-15-09, 10:19 PM

07-18-09, 09:01 PM
Devilles got rear drums. Fleetwood Brougham got discs in 77-79.

07-28-09, 12:53 AM

got the 425 out. didnt even mess up the front bumper like I planned. Had to lift he motor and push the car back because of the sand. Those dimpled exhaust manifolds look very restrictive. The frame mounts seem to be in a different spot on the frame than the 90s. They seen more toward the front on the car. Maybe I'll get some pics of it tomorrow.

10-22-09, 03:29 AM
So I got the 500 apart and all the pieces off the 425. There are a couple other things you would want to grab off a 425/368 like the heater connection on the back of the motor(90 degree angle instead of straight back towards firewall), oil filter adapter, pulleys and throttle cable brackets.

One of the cylinders on the 500 has some rust so I hope the machine shop can get it out with a hone job, pistons are not in the budget. I'll put some pics up tomorrow after work. The funnest part was getting the block in my car by myself but Im still alive.

10-22-09, 05:25 PM
How bad is the rust in the cylinder? Can you post a pic? If it is light enough rust you may be able to hone it. Good luck!

10-22-09, 09:44 PM

10-23-09, 01:14 PM
I have been having a hard time to find engine mounts too. All the parts places have the frame mounts listed as motor mounts but no actual engine mounts. Every Google search brings up hundreds of frame mounts but no engine mounts. I don't know what else they would be called.

The places I've asked for the non-rubber side of the mount (just metal), they said you'd have to go to a junk yard to pick them up. I'm assuming this is because it's a part that normally wouldn't need replacing whereas the rubber can go on the other half of the mount.

10-23-09, 02:32 PM
i was thinking that cadillac king guy would have some mounts. all those acres of cadillacs...he has to have something. i have a guy on my craigslist that has a 425 but he rejected my offer for the parts. maybe ill email him again

10-23-09, 10:10 PM
What about the mounts that came with your 425? Would they adapt to your application?

10-23-09, 10:53 PM
yea, I got mine from the 425 and they work. Do the ones from the 368 work also?

10-24-09, 09:39 AM
Not sure. Have zero experience with 368. There are similarities with all these blocks and they may intrchange.

10-24-09, 03:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the 472, 500, 425, and 368 all use the same engine block, with different bores, strokes, and heads. The blocks are all physically the same. So it would make sense that the metal part of the mount should interchange between all of them. Just an idea.

11-11-09, 09:31 AM
^ That sounds correct according to what I've read

11-19-09, 08:48 PM

here she is, back from the shop. Got a 454 TBI too. But I got a couple questions. If I use the TH400, can I still use the digital speedometer? Also, is there a stock driveaxle that will bolt up to the TH400/500? Maybe one that can be shortened easily. The shop still has the heads and they'll probably need guides and a valve job.

11-19-09, 09:23 PM
Looks great, glad to see im not the only one with a black 500 block

11-21-09, 12:59 AM
hey man ou have helped me out a couple of times and told me to watch this thread im post poning my build till I get my suttlement from disability, how much did it cost to get it looking so beautiful?

11-21-09, 09:35 AM
tanked, flux, decking, cyl hone, centerline crank/cam hone, cam bearings, frost plugs, drill extra oil drainback hole and paint for 200 at a small machine shop.

11-21-09, 12:17 PM
Also, has anybody ever welded the spider gears to make posi? I heard its easy and cheap

11-21-09, 03:11 PM
Wow! Great price. What's the heads/cam/pistons/intake that you are going with?

Oh, don't weld up your spiders. It will not be fun to drive on the street. That is for drag only cars. To be perfectly honest, you only need posi if you are going to be accelerating at full throttle from a dead stop on a regular basis. I have a posi in my SS, and it gets used, but never really use the posi in my Caprice wagon. All my other cars have open rear carriers, and they are fine.

11-21-09, 04:42 PM
Im gonna keep the stock heads and pistons. The valvetrain, intake manifold and exhaust will be aftermarket if money permits. Just unsure about the cam, kinda wanna go big but be able to drive it without worrying about overheating in slow traffic.

12-09-09, 07:32 PM
any updates on this ?

12-09-09, 08:07 PM
Christmas has most money for now. Kids are expensive. I have been looking for a less expensive valvetrain though. Maybe someone here has an aftermarket setup for sell..??

01-08-10, 11:00 PM
So, need some advice/help here. I'm back on track with this and I'm talking with my machine shop about the valvetrain. My ultimate goal for this motor is to get the most out of it and still be able to drive it around town without overheating. I know the motor will have torque so I'm focusing on raw HP, maybe do a highrise single plane intake(but I dont know yet). I dont care about MPGs. That leaves me at the camshaft. I dont know how big I can go but I was looking at a couple on ebay. I need to tell the shop the specs on the cam so they can machine all the clearances.

this one says good midrange, looks to be the better one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cadillac-368-472-500-Isky-camshaft-cam-68-80-PERFORMER_W0QQitemZ190259718206QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2c4c5c e83e

this one seems to be just the basic upgrade
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cadillac-368-472-500-Isky-camshaft-cam-kit-torque-RV_W0QQitemZ350138110354QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_ Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5185db9192

One thing I've been unsure about is if these are the right cams for TBI fuel injection, do I custom grind one? ANY info/ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

01-08-10, 11:07 PM
I would definitely call MTS and see what they say. Personally, I would buy a cam from them. It will come with all the advice you need, and that is worth paying for!

01-12-10, 03:14 PM
So I talked to Marty at MTS today and he recommended the number ten cam and said it would work good with the stock rocker setup. The cam calls for .520 lift. The machine shop is worried about having enough vacuum for accessories but Marty said there will be more than enough. Have to machine 150 thousands off the guides but thats it.

01-23-10, 05:44 PM
Well, got lucky. Craigslist has blessed me again with a 77 fleetwood brougham for 375 bucks, and it made the 70 mile trip home with no plates. The car is way beyond saving because the interior is shot. It does have the rear disc w/posi, dual exhaust, new rear air shocks, newer enduro 75s, hubcaps, velour seats and some new motor parts I need.


02-13-10, 11:37 PM
So I've been looking for headers for the car and came across someone that has some in a 79. My question, is the 77-79 frame the exact same as the 80-92 frame. The guy said they fit like a glove with no mods to anything on his 79. The headers are the ones MTS has advertised as fitting 68-76 Devilles. Just want to make sure the 79 deville frame is the same as the 90.

Side note...the heads are done and paid for, just waiting for the springs/retainers in the mail so the shop can put them together. I should have pics by the end of next week. Also was able to get a posi disc rearend out of a 95 Caprice 9C1...66 bucks at a upull

02-14-10, 12:53 PM
The headers should fit. You might have to grind the bolt on the passenger upper A arm to get clearance.

03-12-10, 09:50 AM
Heads are done and got posi disc brakes in the rear now. I took time off in the 3rd week of April to put it in.
Stock lifters, oversized springs
And the posi

03-12-10, 10:32 AM
Ooooh... I'm going a bit out of my usual job and saying that

This Thread Is Worthless Without VIDEO!

03-12-10, 10:39 AM
That got me laughing. I was actually gonna show the final product in video form.

03-12-10, 10:52 AM
Hmm... perhaps I should add Resident Mind Reader to my signature.

03-13-10, 12:39 PM
That is one awesome build of a 500ci big block. For cooling, did you get the radiator from the vehicle the 500 came in? If so, use that instead of the old radiator, it will not be able to keep up the cooling capacity and overheat.

All that machining for that much, nice.

03-13-10, 04:15 PM
I got a newer aluminum radiator from one of the parts cars with the 425ci but dont know if that will be enough. I'll also grab the waterpump from MTS that has a different propeller on it to help. MTS says this motor will run at 210-225 degrees.

03-13-10, 04:49 PM
Do you have a high flow water pump for your motor to assist with cooling the engine? You could also get one of those additives that says that it can cool down the coolant temps by 30 degrees or more.

If your coolant can stay near 200-210, you should be in okay shape.

03-13-10, 09:49 PM
So I was out looking at the 700 tranny vs the 400. The 400 is only about 1-2" shorter and the crossmember mount is in the same spot. The question I have is about the electrical connection. The 400 have a single wire connection and the 700 has a three wire connection. What do these connections do and how do I fix this?

03-16-10, 10:25 PM
Got the heads home with the springs on. 105lbs seat pressure. Two shims and a keeper.

But I'm still having trouble with the tranny connection. Is the electrical connection on the 400 for the kickdown soleniod?

03-16-10, 11:46 PM
Don't know about the trans, but those heads look brand new! Those are the stock heads, right? Either way, amazing work CS!

03-17-10, 12:13 AM
The heads cleaned up really good, even in the coolant passages. They are stock except for a little clearance machining on the guides to make room for .536 lift

03-17-10, 08:40 AM
The one wire on the th400 is a kickdown solenoid. If you find a gas pedal out of an older Caddy (not sure of years right now) it will have a switch mounted on it for kick down. One wire goes to fuse box 12v and the other plugs into trans. I have driven them before with no kickdown and they will still shift almost perfectly but the electric kickdown works sweet. I think the 77-79 gas pedal should swap into the newer bro-hams. The 700r4 overdrive would be nice but you would need an adapter plate from Advanced Adapters. The 200r4 would install easily but it would need a serious performance build to stand up to the power.

03-17-10, 11:14 AM
Ah, thanks. I may have to grab a gas pedal. I have a 700 with a shift kit but I think the 400 will be the better choice in the long run. I'll hold on to the 700 for a while though since I already have the adapter.

04-08-10, 11:22 PM
So, a little update. Project got delayed 4-6 weeks but I've been doing a little research. I sent the heads back in for a little porting, mainly the bowl area. I figure having over half inch lift with stock low compression heads is a waste. Also got some impala springs. But what I'm having second thoughts about is fuel delivery. I talked to a guy at the Cad Company and he warns me of TBI because of how hard it is to get it right. He also says that I will get less fuel mileage and less power going with the TBI, and that ordering a custom burnt chip through the mail is almost gauranteed to not be right, its better to have a local chassis dyno shop to burn it. I have found a local shop that says they will be able to help with that. But what about putting a carb on? I guess it would be simple and give me more options. Just looking to see what others think of TBI vs carb on built 500

04-09-10, 10:01 AM
definately carb all the way man.

04-09-10, 10:37 AM
But I'm still having trouble with the tranny connection. Is the electrical connection on the 400 for the kickdown soleniod?[/quote]

The connector goes to a solenoid Mounted on the intake manifold near the base of the carburetor. Some of the early models had switches off the accelerator pedal. Your '77 solenoid is on the manifold.
Regarding the '77 you picked up, are you concidering selling off any parts.

04-09-10, 02:03 PM
The parts cars are gone. I'm starting to think that a new carb would set this motor right. Anybody ever seen a dual TBI setup?

04-16-10, 12:41 AM
So I got everything ordered today. Went back and forth with CadCo and MTS and it was like day and night. Biggest difference was CadCo said dont port heads and go small cam(216 duration, .500 lift) and MTS said port bowl area and biggish cam(270 duration, .538 lift). Hopefully peak torque isnt at 4K rpm but I went with MTS. Mainly because Marty is a pretty good guy to work with. So I got the edel intake, headers, 1.72 rocker setup:), special waterpump, ARP bolts and other little stuff. And for fuel delivery....carb, holley street avenger 870cfm. Max a bored TBI could do is 690cfm. Marty gave me the hookup on the valvetrain because they have 6K miles on them. So now I have to figure out how to switch from fuel injection to carb, heard its pretty easy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I just keep the in-tank fuel pump and put a regulator on it, right? And if I disconnect the ECM, will I have heat?

04-16-10, 01:21 AM
I've heard that since the pump is so low pressure you can run a T fitting off of the fuel outlet hose. Use the big (wider) end of the T-pipe to hook to the car. Then use the smaller (narrower) end of the T-pipe to hook to the fuel return line. This fills the carb, and once full, the float blocks the fuel inlet on the carb. Then, since the fuel can't flow through the bigger opening, it runs through the narrower opening back to the tank. I'm doing the same thing with my Olds 350, electric fuel-pump, and Edelbrock carb. If this doesn't work, then I guess try the regulator. Best of luck! :thumbsup:

04-22-10, 12:27 AM
Got started on the bottom end.
thats as far as I made it yet.

04-22-10, 09:15 AM
That's going to be one sweet engine. Didn't MTS have any suggestions about shaving those low compression heads a little? It looks like you are a little ways away from dealing with the fuel system. When I converted my FI Seville to a dependable carb, the Seville fuel pump is located outside the tank so it was easy to bypass it. That pump put out 40 lbs or so, so it wouldn't work with a carb. I assume your FI deville operated at 40 lbs too. If it is in the tank, the pick up may still pick up fuel with the pump disconnected. Then you could use a stock mechanical fuel pump or................GM makes a really nice and cheap electric fuel pump for older carbed vehicles. It is only about $50 too. It's in the GM Performance Parts Catalog.

04-22-10, 10:43 AM
I have a fuel pressure gauge hooked up to the TBI system now and it reads just above 10lbs, I still got a regulator with a bypass. I can use the stock fuel pump too, right? They didnt say anything about shaving the heads but I would probably get new pistons before that.

04-22-10, 02:51 PM
Oh yeah, TBI. I was thinking 70's multi-point FI. I guess the original fuel pump is the way to go; just use your regulator. Shaving heads is a cheaper way to raise compression than changing pistons; especially if the machine shop is already working on the heads. I wouldn't just do it for the heck of it unless a respected expert recommended it and gave me some specs or the machine shop had done it before. I thought MTS would have recommended it when they recommended bowl porting and a bigger cam. I like the thread and the progress, peace.

04-23-10, 09:43 PM
finished up the bottom and front. Had to change the #1 main studs back to bolts because the studs didnt fit under the stock mid-sump pan. Also had to do a mod on the 425 timing cover to match up to the 500 block. This time tomorrow, I should have the heads, valvetrain and intake on.
Smoothed and drilled out the hole so the bolt could go throught to the tread behind it on the block

04-24-10, 09:21 AM

04-24-10, 10:31 AM

04-24-10, 11:31 AM
WOW! Looking great. I'm jealous...

Are you going to finish it in Cadillac blue? Oh, a little tip for those rusty bolts. Take the bolts, and stick them through a piece of cardboard so the threads are on one side, with the heads on the other. Now you can use some spray paint to shoot all the bolt heads at once. Works great! It will make a big difference in the appearance of your finished project.

How about roller tip rockers?

04-24-10, 12:35 PM
Last time I looked at this thread a long time ago, I thought this was a hypothetical project. I didn't realize you are actually doing this! Looks awesome.

I do agree you should clean up those bolts though, it will look a lot better.

04-24-10, 01:36 PM
I will definitly have to paint the bolts. Im a little nervous about the carb now. Holley 870. Everybody is telling me its way to big and to get something around a 750. And edelbrock.

04-24-10, 02:03 PM
That is a thing of beauty.

04-24-10, 03:28 PM
Hmm, I'm not so sure that carb is too big. The Q jets are close to that. That is a big displacement engine. Talk to the MTS guys and see what they say.

04-24-10, 08:22 PM
Marty said it should work. His first thought was the Holley 770. Stock q-jet is 800. Got the headers on and took some pics, ill post some pics a little later. Working on this distributor curve kit but it doesn't want to act right. The plate is so stiff, the new springs won't pull it back. I have the dizzy from the 425 so hopefully I can use it.

04-24-10, 09:11 PM
You might have to jet it down a bit...

Hey, do Ben a favor and shoot a pic of the oil drain back holes in the head and post it on his thread...

04-25-10, 07:34 AM
I don't believe the 850 is too big. I also never believe the people that say a 350 can only use a 600 cfm carb. Maybe in theory bot not in the real world. That 500 will be plenty thirsty. I'm also not a fan of plain black engines although they do hide the leaks better.

04-25-10, 09:55 AM
These things are huge and man made. I did some measuring and, with the headers, the motor is only about 4-5 inches wider than the 350 with the headers. They look like they will fit just fine but one support bracket may have to go or be modified.

05-03-10, 08:57 PM
So, got the old motor out. It did well for my first build. It was the motor from "my first engine swap" and lasted 5K miles without problems but needs rings now. I have ran into a little snag now with the motor mounts. The 90 brougham has the mounts towards the back of the frame crossmember. The 77 mounts are towards the front. How would I fix this. There is about 3.25" between the two motors from mount to tranny flange and the mounts seem to make up the difference. Can I just drill into the frame? The top pic is a 77

05-04-10, 12:34 AM
Well I'll be darned. All my mid 70's Olds and Chevys have about 10 holes in each side of the crossmember to accommodate any motor mount. I'm a little surprised they quit doing it so soon in '90 since GM seemed to be unsure which engine they were going to use in the late 80's. I'm surprised the 77 doesn't have all those holes either. I have a 82 Olds 98 that has all those holes and I thought that was the same frame as the 77 Deville. If it will help, I could take some pics of the old crossmembers with all the holes in them. I could also take some measurements between holes too.

05-04-10, 01:33 AM
If you could do that, it would be very helpful. I very much appreciate it. I was just gonna eyeball it. Thanks again Al

05-04-10, 05:19 PM
I'm not clear on your frame mounts so my pics may not help much. Your 90 FWB came with a 350 Chevy engine right? They must have been rubber frame mounts and not solid ones right? The 77 Deville uses Chevy style rubber frame mounts mounted toward the front of the crossmember just like the 70's Impalas. It looks to me like a 350 Chevy would drop right in. If that is true then a 425/500 will bolt in anywhere a Chevy 350 was if the 350 Chev had the normal rubber frame mounts. Maybe you won't have to move your mounts at all.

Anyway this is what a frame from a '82 Olds Ninety Eight looks like: Aren't these B bodies supposed to be all the same?

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr276/cadillac_al/th_100_0480.jpg (http://s491.photobucket.com/albums/rr276/cadillac_al/?action=view&current=100_0480.jpg)

You can see where the solid Olds frame mounts were mounted toward the rear of the crossmember and about an inch lower than the front set of holes.

05-06-10, 02:56 AM
Well, got it in. Everything went pretty good. I almost got the motor mounts correct and was able to get the bolts through but it took an extra hour. I got them in the right spot as far as moving them towards the front of the car but they should have went down some, maybe half an inch. drivers side header fit with no problems, havent did the passanger yet, looks close.

05-06-10, 09:05 AM
nice man. it looks right at home. :D

05-06-10, 10:08 AM
Very nice.

05-06-10, 11:21 AM
Thanks, Ill get some daytime pics up today.

05-07-10, 12:30 AM
Couple more pics
Now it fits:
This could be a problem, and thats with a drop base air cleaner.
But here's where I'm stuck. The second u-joint is where it lines up with the rear axle. Can I take off the last yoke piece and use as is?

05-07-10, 09:04 AM
Something inside me says no, but I'm not sure why. Is the driveshaft too long now? Isn't that cv joint supposed to bolt to the rear end. I would hate to disturb or remove any of that because that keeps your driveshaft turning nice and smooth. The correct way is to have the driveshaft shortened. If you have to shorten the driveshaft then maybe you could have mounted the engine in the stock location and the headers might have fit better. This is a trial and error operation since you are doing it all yourself rather than following someone else's build. Someone may use this thread in the future to make the job easier for somebody else. I can't wait for the tire roasting video.

05-07-10, 09:37 AM
as Al said, i wouldn't pull off any of the U joints. Would probably be best to have it shortened by a professional. You could try to shorten it yourself if you're good at welding but if it comes out crooked you'd be boned.

05-07-10, 11:00 AM
Well, the rear axle flange that is on the car is different from the one in the pic. Mine just has the straps that go around the u-joint itself. The driveshaft in the pic is from a 77, its a lot heavier and can probably handle more torque but the mounting flange is different.

Another thing, I'm not sure if I'm wiring the alternator right. The 90 alt has 2 wires coming from the alt, one for battery light, the other goes to the climate control. The alt I have is from 77. It has 2 wires, one wire has a ground like connection on it, I believe it bolts somewhere on the back of the alt, does someone know where?

05-07-10, 11:04 AM
If you don't figure it out before Sunday I'll check on my '69 what that alternator looks like. Unfortunately, I won't be seeing it until sunday :(

05-08-10, 12:02 AM
ITS ALIVE!! This thing is crazy! I cant wait to get a driveshaft in there, still havent figured that out yet. Break-in went great. Idles great. Had to use the stock 90 fuel pump oil pressure switch to get the fuel pump on. Gotta get some exhaust on the headers and a driveshaft, then I can put a video up. May be a while before that, budget's low.

05-13-10, 09:12 PM
Couldnt find a stock driveshaft that fit. Got a custom one. 3.5" .083 DOM tubing with heavy duty u-joints. Fit perfectly. Hope its strong enough.
Hey Outsider, can you see how your alt is hooked up. Just wanna make sure I got the wiring right.

05-13-10, 09:14 PM
looks good man. put that bad boy in and go for a spin!

05-13-10, 09:18 PM
looks good man. put that bad boy in and go for a spin!

I wish, needs some exhaust.

05-16-10, 02:24 PM
Got the impala springs in with new front shocks. AngryMatt, yours looked like it was lower. Still need the exhaust, its killing me not being able to drive it.

05-16-10, 03:06 PM
Do the Impala springs lower the car at all? I really like the stance on your Brougham. SUCH a nice car. You'll have to give us a full review once you get an exhaust on there!

05-16-10, 03:14 PM
Did you index the front springs properly? The end of the coil should go between the two little holes.

05-16-10, 03:25 PM
It lowered the car about 2 inches but it still seems spongier than expected when you push down on the bumpers. Not as stiff as an impala I'm sure. Don't think I indexed, whats gonna happen

05-16-10, 05:26 PM
Nothing bad will happen. The spongy is from the shocks. Go with some Bilsteins ($$) or Monroe Severe Service and I guarantee no more spongy...

Angry Matt
05-16-10, 07:57 PM
Did you use stock impala springs? Mine are eibach made for the impala. If they're stock impala springs, you'll have to let me know how it rides. I may have another project...

05-16-10, 08:32 PM
These are stock Impala springs. Its gonna need some impala shocks.

05-17-10, 09:07 AM
It's hard to tell from the pic you took, but it appears you have a little forward rake on your stance. Some of my '77s have a lot of rake and I know some new front springs would be an improvment.

05-27-10, 02:31 PM
So I got the exhaust on, duals running down each side. Finally able to drive it. This car is fun. Peak range is a little higher than I want but its still crazy, especailly with the posi. I'll try to get some video on Saturday. Got a little valvetrain slop but Marty said he would swap the pushrods no problem. 2 1/2 inch exhaust back gave it a very deep sound. It's a fun car. The impala springs didn't do much but lower the car, definitly needs shocks cause it has a lot of roll. I'll wash it and put some pics up tonight.

05-27-10, 03:18 PM
nice man! Can't wait to see the pictures and videos! :D

How's the power? Acceleration?

05-27-10, 03:20 PM

[/subtle hint]

05-27-10, 03:35 PM
Bilstiens and a Hotchkiss sway bar on the front will tighten that sucker right up. Nice build. One of these days I'll do one of the ones in my shop...though I have no clue what I'll put it in. Maybe the Eldo...

05-27-10, 06:44 PM
Acceleration is pretty good but it really wakes up around 3000rpm. Ive did a little tuning on the carb but ill be changing the spring to open the secondairies earlier. Its only been a day so I should have it tuned in time for the video. The new lower stance has caused some new clattering in the front and rear, gotta look into that also. But I just love hitting the gas pedal. Sting, I picked up on the slight hint of Florida also.

05-27-10, 06:47 PM
Yeah... Exhaust video needed. ASAP.

05-27-10, 09:13 PM
The secondary spring is quite adjustable. It can be adjusted to practically no tension if you thought you needed it that soft.

05-28-10, 02:05 AM
Couldnt get that good of pics tonight, a friend and I are swapping a fwd tranny...what a pain that is, lesson learned.

Here's the exhaust tips. These were already on the car when I got it
this was a 16 second exposure. Loving the eggcrate grill, looks really good in the daylight too

05-28-10, 02:33 AM
That second pic looks absolutely SINISTER! Bravo and hats off to you, good sir!

05-28-10, 08:12 AM
Hmm... this thread.... It is missing something.

Needs moar smoky burnout. :thumbsup:

05-28-10, 08:24 AM
nice pics! that car looks real good. Can't wait for the videos.

As for the eggcrate grill, i'm not a fan. I prefer the other style. I even swapped out my 87's grill for the other style.

05-28-10, 09:25 AM
I love the eggcrate! Very traditional Cadillac...

05-28-10, 09:42 AM
Yeah, they are nice I just prefer the other style, can't think of what it's called now. I still have my eggcrate grill in the basement if I ever decide to go back to it (or if anyone here needs one...) the mounting tabs were broke when i bought the car and I think I JBWelded them back on, but I don't remember.

05-28-10, 11:57 AM
Forgot to mention that everything fit under the hood no problem. Changed to a lighter secondary spring this morning and it seems to be better. I can smell a lot of gas after a while of driving, is that normal with a bigger carb?

05-28-10, 01:00 PM
I smell gas with my 307, too. As long as it's driving good and you don't see any leaks I wouldn't worry. But that's just me.

05-28-10, 02:01 PM
You should never smell gas when the car is on or off. No matter what carb you are running.

05-28-10, 02:10 PM
So should I screw in the idle mixture screws. I adjusted them to get the best vacuum but that called for me to back them out, just a tiny bit. Would less vacuum rob power?

05-28-10, 08:25 PM
I was always taught to set the mix at best vacuum.

05-28-10, 08:40 PM
Just awesome.

05-28-10, 10:47 PM
So I was messing with the different secondary springs and found that the heavier one seems to be the best but if I could have one between heavy and medium, that would be best. Also, I found out why there is a gas smell. The charcoal canister, its not hooked up and is venting in the engine bay. The only thing connected is the line to the gas tank but its venting out of another port on top of the canister. Should I just plug the gas tank vent line and remove the canister all together?

06-03-10, 11:59 PM
So looking into the valvetrain noise tonight, I measured the lifter preload and come up with about .116. MTS says it should be between .020 and .080. So if the preload is too much, would it cause noise or would I just be losing power? The guide says that anything below .030 will cause noise but doesnt say what happens when the load is too much. Is it possible that my lifters are bottoming out? That doesnt sound good. Its parked for now.

edit: just read some stuff online saying that, if you have too much lifter preload, the valves would stay open all the time and the engine wouldnt start because of lack of compression. I dont know, guess I have to measure again. The pushrods turn pretty freely when they are tightened so I still think the preload is too loose.

07-11-10, 04:33 PM
So I think my torque converter is gone. It's reving all over the place on mid and heavy throttle and locks and unlocks when it feels like it. I have an opportunity to get a switch pitch th400 for $200 but don't know if its the right way to go. I was looking at a 2K stall converter along with a 2400 stall converter also. Has anybody worked with switchpitch before? I'm pretty hard on the car so whatever can take more abuse would work better. Any suggestions?

07-12-10, 07:44 PM
I think a switch pitch th400 for $200 is a good deal. I don't know if I have ever had a th400 work any better than the old switch pitch in my old '66 Olds with the high compression 425. I abused it every day in my early 20's smoking tires and killing Camaros and never had a problem. Of course you never know what you are buying and if this th400 needs a rebuild, which is quite possible, then you would have to account for that cost too.

07-12-10, 11:27 PM
Do you remember what stall it would go to when you switched it?

07-13-10, 07:54 PM
No I don't remember and didn't have a tach anyway but I seem to remember reading that it changed about 500 rpm or so. I'm guessing a normal converter would stall around 1800 rpm and it might add another 500 to that. I remember I could feel it switch while in high gear once it got cruising, kind of like a lock up converter.

07-13-10, 08:09 PM
From this (http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/oftsp.htm) site:

The converter changed stall speeds from 1800 rpm to 2600-2800 rpm. A 12" converter was used in the TH-400,

Lots of good info there.

07-13-10, 11:08 PM
Thanks for the info. This has help me choose to get a torque converter instead of the SP. Too many variables to deal with right now. I do like the stall speeds though.

07-14-10, 07:50 AM
Bruce Roe would know more about this as he converts newer model trans to switch pitch. Take thread to engines and he should pick up on this. He has a wealth of info regarding these trans.

07-29-10, 06:28 PM
So I've been searching torque converter info for a week now but I'm still up in the air as what to do. Hoping someone here can help me out with some questions. Wondering, if I have a cam that runs pretty smooth at idle and does great in the 1500-4500 rpm range, do I need a lower stall speed? Like a stock replacement? Maybe 2K stall speed?
Also wondering exactly how a TC work. So, with a stock TC...you hit the gas hard and as soon it gets to 1400rpm(or whatever stock stall is), it locks and you either hook and go or spin the tires...right? Dont mean to bother yall with these questions but I'm just not understanding this 100%. Everything I read says that, since my cam operates good at low rpm, I should get a stock TC. Also read that an "advertised" 2K stall converter will probably stall 3-400 rpm lower with a built big block, so maybe get a 2K stall converter to get the correct range?

Then there is the bolt pattern, what pattern is the cadillac flywheel to TC bolt pattern? This aftermarket looks to have both right? Is there only two bolt patterns?
Then the converters come in 9", 10", 11", 12"....man it get complicated. Maybe I'm reading to far into it?

07-31-10, 08:20 AM
Because your engine is a low rev torquer, you would be better off with a stock unit. Save your bucks and stay away from high stall converters. The object with high stall converters is to allow an engine with a performance cam ( high exhaust / intake valve overlap ) come up into it's power range ( torque band ). Performance engines, with high overlap cams, don't come into torque range until 1800 - 2800 depending on cam design.
Cadillac engines, in stock form, don't need this, as torque is available at low engine speeds. 650 rpm.
For most applications, the TH400 and TH350 share the same bolt patterns. The torque converters have threaded lugs welded to the converter body. The other 350 coverter ( smaller diameter ) and the powerglide converters fit the smaller flexplate and have ears welded to the body with holes for a bolt and nut connection.

07-31-10, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the info. Now I know I'm heading in the right direction. I'll probably get a stock converter or something in that range. Glad I didnt get that 2500 stall converter on craigs.

08-06-10, 09:46 AM
So I got a Boss Hog 1600-2200 stall converter and put it in. The result...not so good. The smaller problem is that I have a little vibration at high rpm, even in nuetral. The other problem, it didnt do much to improve the problem I had. A little better but not fixed.

Most of the time, if I hit the gas, it will rev high but not go like it should, after it finally makes it into second gear, I feel another "engagement" and the car takes off like crazy. This only happens when taking off from low rpm. Thats the best I can describe it. I dont have the kickdown solenoid hooked up and I have the tranny vacuum line going to a "full vacuum" port off the carb. I'm pretty good at "feeling" whats wrong with the car and it doesnt feel like the tranny is bad, it shifts okay at all RPMs but that "engagement" is way off. Thats why I bought the converter but now I'm not sure what the issue is. Maybe something with the kickdown solenoid?

08-07-10, 08:47 AM
I've reread your posts looking for another symptom, such as pump whine, but you don't mention any. It almost sounds like you have a sticky piston or a seal that that has hardened, possibly a spring has weakened. Of course the vacuum modulator should be connected to your manifold vacuum port, your shift points won't be right. Correct this first. If you have a service manual, you will find a diagram of the TH400 fluid circuitry. There is a description of pressure port, which has a pipe plug fitting. You tap into that port with a pressure gauge to determine your pump / circuit pressures. You can get an inexpensive kit from NAPA, just keep it away from any exhaust pipes or manifolds. I use a braided steel line I made up to check these circuits, because I burned the kit I had. The SM has a guide for the pressures for each circuit. Low pressure on any circuit indicates poor seals or sealing or bleeding at clutch packs.

08-07-10, 09:36 AM
I was just looking at one of those gauges at the parts store. Thanks for the info about the vacuum port. Do you think the kickdown solenoid has a little to do with it? I was thinking that maybe it helps build pressures on heavy acceleration.

08-07-10, 04:33 PM
So I did what you told me about the vacuum port to manifold vacuum instead of carb vacuum. Took it out and took off from dead stop, first couple of seconds it was the same, high rev and not going to fast, then WAW!!! it kick down and takes off like nothing else. It was first gear! I dont know what happened to first gear but its alive again. So I manually shifted the gears and it took off great. If I leave it in drive, it wont go into first until late in the launch. I think it has something to do with the kickdown solenoid. Thanks Deville33 for telling me to move to manifold vacuum, it really narrowed the problem. At least I can race now.

08-07-10, 05:44 PM
Perhaps you do have your kick down solenoid mispositioned, but it shouldn't activate until you have the throttle almost or all the way to the floorboard. That could be why your finding first gear late, but it shouldn't have anything to do with the trans not going into first gear when postioned in drive. Check your selector linkage.

08-07-10, 06:09 PM
I don't have the kickdown solenoid hooked up at all. In normal driving, the car does fine. Not sure what's going on with first gear.

08-07-10, 06:54 PM
Your SM has a trouble shooting guide for such problems. If I get to the shop tommorrow, I'll check. Perhaps someone else with a SM can help you tonight.

10-02-10, 02:50 AM
Got the tranny rebuilt, it wouldnt shift out of first sometimes and had heavy vibrations. Got it in tonight and now it rides smooth without vibration and there is also less noise inside the car. Its was a basic rebuild with a Transgo shift kit, HD sprag and adjustable modulator. Still have the stall converter also. The Transgo is a nice kit, firm shift without being harsh. Now I'm just waiting on the new Eaton posi and 3.73 gears in the mail.

03-15-11, 12:10 AM


cadillac kevin
03-15-11, 12:22 AM
that is too cool dude. that thing sounds like a freight train at idle. chug chug chug chug.
it does sick burnouts too. couldn't even see the car after a few seconds.
you really need to tape the camera down though- I can hear it rattle on the dashboard.
also, next time can you do a 0-60? I'd love to see how fast that sucker will go.

03-15-11, 08:45 AM
:( it says the video is private and I can not watch! :(

03-15-11, 09:22 AM
I'll have to change it when I get home. For now you could search "1990 Cadillac brougham w/500" on YouTube. I'll be change it about lunchtime when I get home.

03-15-11, 10:00 AM
thanks. that thing sounds mean. listen to it snort!

love the smoke show, too!

03-15-11, 02:36 PM
Yea, that was the first time lighting up those tires, expensive burnouts. Since I got it out the storage, I've put adjustable upper/lower control arms, bilsteins up front and new brakes/rotors/calipers in back. Just got to put the black interior in, get rid of the vibration at high RPMs and tune the engine a little more.

But I did change the video to public(edit). There are two videos but they are about the same, just a difference in the caprice frame(slowed it down). Kevin, that rattling is driving me crazy, makes me want to make another. I'll do another video at a place with more room to play and do a 0-60 but my quess is its somewhere around a quarter millisecond...Ha

03-15-11, 02:41 PM
Yeah... that's just badass. I wish I could afford the tires to do awesome burnouts like that. :lol:

03-15-11, 02:56 PM
look on craigslist for cheap or free used tires to burn :D

03-15-11, 02:59 PM
I look for tires everyday. Gonna stock up on them every chance I get.

03-15-11, 03:03 PM
Heh. Uh oh.

03-28-11, 08:59 PM
My poor baby. I've had a vibration ever since I got the converter, finally dug into it this week...


03-28-11, 10:02 PM
So the mounting tabs on the converter are not flush/flat? It is pulling the flexplate out of true when you tighten it down?

03-28-11, 10:38 PM
Well, I put a washer on the obviously off mount on the converter, the converter still wobbles pretty bad but the flexplate is perfect. We've come to the conclusion that the converter was welded wrong. Getting another one soon.

05-07-11, 08:41 PM
Bad news....Huge knock. Lost half my oil pressure on the highway and before I stopped, it lost a bearing.

05-08-11, 10:19 AM
Dude, say it ain't so! I don't know how i missed this thread but I just saw your video and if would have seen that a couple weeks ago I would have definitely told you not to drive it. I can hear it knocking in that video but it could have been coming from the trans pump end since that was taking a thrashing too. That is seriously screwed up. I have seen that before once but my memory is not too clear on the cause. I think I had a converter once that didn't seat in the crank right or there was something keeping it from seating right and pulled the flexplate out of true. I noticed it right away before driving the car though. If your converter is welded that far out of whack then that is just scary. That is a total bummer anyway, hopefully you only need a new crank kit but it sure sucks to do it all over again.

05-08-11, 10:37 AM
Yea, I pulled the converter a few weeks ago and put a new one in and fixed that issue...but recently got a little ticking. Thought it was everything from cheap gas, bad timing, lifters to oil pump. Took it out after adjusting timing and she went out on me. Not really stressing it a lot because I want to go with a bigger cam and fix a "smoke at high RPM" issue I was having. I do believe the vibration from the old converter had a little to do with it.

05-09-11, 12:37 PM
Stroker time!

05-09-11, 08:45 PM
Yep, I was gonna put some combos together and see which one I like. Wanna get higher compression so if I get new pistons, I'll probably offset grind the crank and that should make it about 514 cubic inches with high compression and a bigger cam. #10 cam was cool but I need more.

05-21-11, 07:23 PM
i feel your pain though.i just dropped a 500 w headers and worked 400 w converter in my 77 coupe about two weeks ago.been sitting on this project for about 3 yrs.anyway,had several initial starting issues,turned i had 4 batteries that were trash.anyway,once it started,tap tap tap on the front bottom end.very loud,doesnt sound like a knock but heartbreaking just the same.gotta drop the pan to see if the motor is done..

05-21-11, 10:05 PM
Did you pull the dipstick tube to see if its hitting? Or check to see if the TC is tight to the flexplate?

05-26-11, 03:04 PM
Got it out and apart:
Intake leak
First bad signs...
Grey oil:
Bearing shavings:
Damage to rocker:
Two leaking valves:
Broken oil pickup mount:
If you look closely, you can see a "5" on the piston that supposed to be a "1", this may be the root of the problem
Bingo, spun rod bearing number 2:
Other damaged bearings:

Looks like a crank grind is in order, got lucky. Gonna upgrade to the MTS #15 cam, new lifters and better frame side mounts.

05-26-11, 04:40 PM
lol, you swap engines more than Stingroo changes oil.

05-26-11, 04:43 PM
I don't change it. I'm painting my driveway with it, thank you very much!


05-27-11, 08:47 AM
so you think the swapped pistons and rods may have contributed?im asking because i see the same thing on my motor.#2 and # 8 are switched.just havent checked bearings yet.motor still in the car.

05-27-11, 10:03 AM
I dont know. Some are saying I put a rod cap on backwards but its so hard to tell which way they go.

06-03-11, 09:55 AM
checked my bearings.my caps were marked with #'s matching the rods.didnt see bearing damage or spun bearings but the #7 rod had side to side play that made the noise i heard when moving it.how much did the rocker setup cost?

06-23-11, 11:05 AM
So machine shop is almost done. They said the spun bearing caused clearance issues between the piston and valve. One valve was bent, one needed regrinding, two piston rods needed reconditioning and one piston has minor detonation damage. Crank didnt need much, it was 10 under, now its 20 under. Rocker setup was 4.

06-23-11, 11:24 AM
Must be nice to have a good machine shop! I've never been to one or researched it...about what would would you be looking at for a rebuilt on a 500 or 472?

06-23-11, 11:34 AM
You'll spend about 500 at the machine shop but that will include decking heads/block and a valve job. You can get away with about 250 if you just want the basic magnaflux and paint. You should stop in one when you have time, you'll fall in love with hp.

06-23-11, 11:39 AM
Nice...$500 isn't nearly as bad as I was thinking.

I will have to look around for one in my area!

06-23-11, 01:02 PM
Really that cheap? Wow I paid 1500 for my long block Oldsmobile 350. Including delivery. I have a machined 472 the Guy gave me when I bought my 67. Would I be able to sell it for about 500 or could I get more for it. I think the motor is all stock.

06-23-11, 03:06 PM
500 takes care of the block, heads, intake and pistons with paint of your choice. Crank grind is 110. Gaskets, bearings, cam/lifter kit and ignition related stuff should put you around 12 all said and done if you have the patients to wait for the good prices. This is assuming you have the complete motor and don't have to buy heads and such. My shop consist of two brothers that used to work at a big machine shop and now work out of there decked out garage, this may be why its cheaper. I just put an ad on craigslist about what I needed and they emailed a price list. Best thing is they are about 8 blocks from the house.

06-24-11, 04:16 PM
This build is awesome!
I have a 500 in my '75 deVille.... would definitely like to hot rod it.

And, MTS all the way! Marty is an excellent person to ask for advice. :)

06-24-11, 08:43 PM
Marty is the man. Some progress:

Intake manifold cleaned and painted, going blue. Wrong blue but oh well:
New rockers, rockerarms.com sent me 3 new ones for an even trade of my stock rocker setup I had sitting in a box. Neat little system:

Block and heads are about done, just waiting on frost plugs and such.

07-03-11, 11:54 AM
Damage to the piston. Spun bearing caused too much clearance and the piston was hitting the head. Just barely touching, no major damage.
We are thinking this damage is from detonation but it could also be from hitting the head.
Waiting on the new bearing to be able to put the bottom end together. I'm gonna rebuild to the same specs as before but change the LSA on the cam to 110 or 112. It was at 114 because I was originally planning to do TBI.

09-28-11, 09:22 PM
Finally, a little progress...

After honing, a little clean up with some steaming hot water.

A little find. Gunk on the cap surface that may have been the source of my rear main leak. The gunk's probably been there since the beginning of time.

To replace the spun bearings.

Looking much better.
Bout as far as I've made it.

09-28-11, 09:56 PM
that's some goood work man!

I need to find me a 500. I had a question about it...if i get one from like 73 what would it take to get it to output more power like the 500 from 1970? just heads?

09-28-11, 10:07 PM
Thanks. MTS just announced today they will be receiving pistons for the later heads that will bump up compression and piston height, 400 a set. But you would need the heads and pistons for the early block, I think 71 was the last year for high compression.

10-03-11, 01:45 PM
Got the pistons in. Still having issues with it being easy to turn half way through and harder to turn the other half.
Pics didnt show up that good last night.

10-05-11, 09:30 PM
Got the heads on.
Location of engine ID...provides the year of engine, engine code and manufacturer plant code. This info seems not to be 100% because my numbers dont match up with what the Cadillac tech book says.
Welded bracket back on.
And thats about as far as I go for a while. Plan is to have it running by snowfall.

10-06-11, 02:32 AM
I have a 78 Sedan and an old 500 I bought.
You are giving me inspiration.
I wonder if Id have to remove my wire wheels.
Im sure they would be fine under normal conditions.
But with the 500 there is too much temptation.
You are not only building a torque monster, but I imagine a wire wheel muncher as well.

10-06-11, 09:54 AM
Yea, you'll be burning corners every chance you get, maybe thats just me. I drive like a madman sometimes. They did have wire wheels on the early 70s Cadillac so maybe they can handle a little abuse...Unless you actually hook on a take off.

10-06-11, 04:32 PM
Yea, you'll be burning corners every chance you get, maybe thats just me. I drive like a madman .


Must see a video one day!!

10-06-11, 07:16 PM
There's two video a couple pages back.

11-10-11, 01:56 AM
Finally got enough to get this going again. Talked to Marty at MTS and he said, since I have 3.73 rear gears, go with a bigger #15 cam. It will have a thump at idle but still very streetable.
Kinda hard to see but the old cam gear has indents from the timing chain, still reused it.

11-10-11, 09:55 AM
You're my hero...

I need a 500 engine like that for my 87! :D

11-10-11, 12:57 PM
Tough to tell by the pics but is assembly lube being used?

11-10-11, 02:39 PM
Yea, assembly oil. Much better stuff, switched from lube to oil the moment I saw the oil. Almost ready to go in.

11-14-11, 01:53 AM
Got it in, put the motor mounts on the engine first then set it in. Having a friend come weld them in. Before, they were too far off.
My poor baby after sitting next to the garage most of the summer...

11-14-11, 06:09 AM
Very Impressive Work!!

Also I noticed the flat tappets being used. Are you aware of the oil issue going on these days?
They claim the ZDDP (Zinc) has been taken out of all modern oils. Which is hell on cams with flat tappets.
I use this SF oil at Wal-Mart Accel oil, I think.
But I don't really like it. I've also heard modern Assembly lube lacks the Zddp as well.

I was wondering if you've heard of this and If you know of a work around. Short of switching to Roller Lifters.

I hate this oil situation and would hate to see that cam of yours go flat due to the new crappy oil.

Also as soon as your done you have my vote for Cadillac of the Month.

11-14-11, 08:23 AM
Yea, it's tough being a flat tappet in a roller cam world. I use zinc additive from Lucas, I think its Lucas.

Caddy of the month would be tough, mine has a good story behind it but its gotta compete with thefleetwoodguy, Bro-Ham, 77CDV and CadillacPimpinNola, so many people have nice caddys but I'm gonna try for it when I get done with it. Thanks for the complement, its been my baby for a while.

11-18-11, 09:48 AM
nice to see you back up and almost running.if you remember,i posted about a knock i had when you spun your bearing.found out the # 2 rod bolt was hitting the oil pan.i was so discusted when it first ran,i hadnt touched it for 4 months.if only i had,it would be finished!i have to change the water pump and a little fine tuning.i also have a 3.42 posi rear to put in.cant wait!

11-18-11, 10:50 AM
I just broke it in last night. Went good. Ill post some pics a little later. Still hard to start when warm. I think the alt is a 63amp one that isn't enough for this car.

I will say that my car liked the 3.08 gears better then the 3.73s. 3.43 is probably gonna be the highest you'll wanna go.

11-18-11, 11:02 AM
Put in the 140 amp alt from the LT1 cars. You only need to swap on your pulley and change your connector to the later style. Buy used, they are pretty bulletproof.

11-18-11, 11:05 AM
Nice, I was wondering which used one I could go with. The Caddy one I have now is a BIG alt, is the LT1 alt the bigger style also?

11-18-11, 08:27 PM
There are two that came on the LT1 cars. A smaller case one (115, I think) and the big 140. Standard on 9C1, SS.


11-18-11, 08:33 PM
IIRC the smaller alt is 105.

Random irrelevant info of the day.

Glad to see this beast is getting back on the road. It's such a sweet car.

11-19-11, 01:16 AM
Some quick pics, haven't took many yet.
Engine bay. Threw some paint around, dont know what I'll settle on and I havent cleaned up any other parts yet. Looks better in person.
While he was welding...

So, Its not as powerful as it should be. The motor runs good but the power is lacking. I'm thinking that some rodents made nest in the exhaust over the months it was parked and its clogged up. The mufflers were really hot after a 30 minute highway drive and it backfires anytime I let off the gas. I also blew out the paper-ish collector gaskets. I still have to work with timing but I've got it pretty close for now by ear.

Also, I still have a harmonic vibration. Theres a hum hum hum hum hum about a second apart. Similar to what a out-of-balance driveshaft would sound/feel like. Its hard to tell if it does it in neutral but it was like this before I threw a rod and it also vibrated in neutral. It happens at high RPM while on the gas, cruising or hard on the pedal. Seems like its coming more from up front. I'll have to take the belts off and see what happens, also disconnect the tranny again. I wont have any money for dyno time for about a month to check for drivetrain vibration. Any ideas?

J, my alternator casing looks to be different.

11-19-11, 04:19 PM
The backfiring and hot exhaust sounds like timing/too rich.

Vibration... mark the driveshaft yoke, remove the driveshaft, and reinstall 180 degrees out. Shot in the dark.

The late alternator should work. You just need a spacer/nuts where that extra tab is on yours.

11-19-11, 09:59 PM
Ill do timing with a gun to see where I'm at. Also, I'll flip the driveshaft. Maybe the drivetrain angle? I put in those adjustable upper and lowers and did it by eye, maybe its off.

11-19-11, 10:12 PM
I would go back to stock uppers and keep the adjustable lowers, measuring the center to center on the bushings.

Where's the AC? It's a Cadillac! lol

11-20-11, 09:52 PM
Saved the AC for the minivan, lol. Ill measure the bushing and get back to you. I really don't want to get rid of the uppers, I don't have the stocks anymore. Why go back to them? People having problems with them?

11-21-11, 09:23 AM
Uppers tend to bind more, and the higher durometer bushings on aftermarket arms amplify that. However, I don't blame you for not wanting to swap them. They are a pain to get to. I do have custom arms on my SS (upper and lower), but they are stock length. You will be fine if you make sure that all the centre to centre measurements are the same on the new arms as the old.

11-22-11, 12:13 AM
So I checked the rear control arms and the lowers were off about a half inch. Also melted the nylon off the nylon lock washers on the exhaust, melted some wiring going to the rear axle(ABS?), melted my nylon tube going to the rear shocks, melted the plastic boot around the steering shaft and blew the collector gaskets out. I'd say the timing was way off, everything that was close to the exhaust melted, all the way back to the rear axle.

11-25-11, 06:22 PM
Hey CSBuckin,

That alternator you got in there looks like the higher amp optioned alternator back in the day so it should be higher than 63 amp. You can bolt in a 140 amp alternator. It's called the CS144. I did that for my 78 fleetwood. You will need the lower amp alternator brackets though cause the lowers are a little different. The top bracket you will need from the higher amp alternator because the slotted hole is wider for the higher amp. Basically you take an impact wrench and unbolt the nut from the CS144 and swap pulley's with the v-belt on your alternator. Then it should bolt right in. The only thing that I had to do was trim the back alternator bracket a little bit. You will also have to re-clock the case so it matches the position of yours in the back for the charge wire. Its not hard you just need to unbolt the 4 bolts, pop the case apart and twist it into position then bolt it back in. Look up CS144 swap. A lot of chevy guys do this swap in their thirdgens. Its a nice alternator and easy to work on. One application it was offered on was a 95 Buick Roadmaster with an LT1. Hit me up if you got any questions. - Justin

11-25-11, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the info. I'm not really sure whats going on anymore. I can start the car after waiting about 5 minutes and the battery turns the engine half way decent. Now I'm thinking heat sink with the starter. When its cold, it starts great. I dont know, I may just hook up another battery, get a smaller high torque starter or a heat shield. Now I have another issue with the lights flickering when I touch the shifter but I'll start another thread for that.

11-25-11, 07:09 PM
Make sure the wires that bolt to the starter arent too close to the headers. I just did a swap and melted mine when breaking in my 472 that I put in my 78 fleetwood. They actually come with a clip that holds them in place at the starter and a loop at one of the transmission bolts. You can rig some stuff up with some wiring clips from homedepot otherwise grab them off of a donar at the yard. I wonder if the starter solenoid wire got heated up too much or something. Does the starter not turn at all when its hot or does it just turn slow? Timing might be too advanced on the motor.

11-25-11, 07:50 PM
The motors turns slow and I hear whining but only when hot. After five minutes, its turns fast enough to start it, when cold, it turns healthy. My coil and starter wire run pretty close to the headers. Ill move them around. Think my timing is good.

12-29-11, 12:07 AM
Broke it down again because of an intake seal leak at the front end. Noticed that the intake looks like it leaking. Is it just me? Crappy pic from the cell but it looks like the intake has oil on parts it shouldn't. When I start the car, it smokes bad and runs rough for a minute or two and then idles right. It would make sense that it burns oil for a minute then runs good. Most of the runners are wet. Guess its off to the machine shop to get the angle correct.

12-30-11, 02:25 AM
ALL 1975 and 1976 Cadillac DeVilles, Eldorados and Fleetwoods had 500 CI engines. Seville had a 350 and there's no way to mistake the two. Now it Could be a year earlier 472, that would actually be better.

01-20-12, 04:21 PM
So I got back from the dyno. I was expecting bigger numbers but I'll live. This setup is a low compression 500, stock bottom end, edel intake, MTS #15 cam, hedman headers, true duals no crossover, Holley 870, TH400 and 3.73s. The guy at Hitech thought that the cam had too much overlap and isnt getting the static compression it should be. I'll have to do a compression test soon. Motor runs good and has good power. He put timing at 36, changed out the vacuum advance that had a torn diaphragm, adjusted the rear float, put a lighter spring in for the secondaries and put bigger jets in the rear. Cool place, they easily had $350,000 worth of custom built cars and motors. One thing he was unsure about was the ripple in the chart, they were thinking maybe a misfire or exhaust leak but you cant feel or hear either. The numbers look similar to a stock 90 Brougham but its way faster, I dont get it. The blue lines are the first run, the red is the last run.


01-20-12, 05:56 PM
What stall speed is the converter you're using? You might need a looser converter. Are you running an overdrive on that car? If you're not i'd run a 3:08 rear.

01-20-12, 06:10 PM
I have stall converter that stall just below 2K rpm. No overdrive, I'm getting 3.08s soon. Got to do the rear axle bearings so I get to spend a day on the axle when the new gears come.

01-20-12, 08:28 PM
Gears will be on the way next week! I have to go to upstate NY to pick up stuff at the UPS Store so I'll send them then.

The "ripple" might be tire spin...

01-21-12, 04:55 PM
Thanks, Jay. So tires can spin on the dyno? Kinda like doing a burnout at high RPM? I still have that harmonic vibration. I put two spacers under the tranny and it moved from about 2500 RPM to 3200 RPM. Maybe that could cause tire spin.

01-21-12, 07:37 PM
So after talking with Marty at MTS and some people that build 500s for a hobby, we came to the conclusion that the dyno numbers are off. This car originally had a TBI 350 rated at 300tq/195hp according to the service manual. This motor would smoke the stock setup with ease so its safe to say that the numbers from the dyno are not accurate. I still recommend taking any built motor to the dyno because it runs a lot better. The motor was running lean and the secondairies were opening too late. That made for a slow top end and a lot of smoke at higher RPM. Its not like that anymore. Now it turns over nice and the top end is a lot faster with no smoke. I guess I'll have to do a quarter mile run to get some accurate numbers.

01-23-12, 02:48 AM
A video of the dyno run. Video editing takes FOREVER!

01-24-12, 08:53 AM
Looks like a great time! Lots of serious horsepower in that shop. Your hp/torque numbers do seem to be way off. The engine sounds very healthy but it never seems to get wound up. It's been so long since I drove my 472 but I realize that's the way they are supposed to run. Does your power drop off a lot after 4k RPM? It's good that you got your lean condition taken care of. Are you sure it isn't the fuel pump or lines? It sounds like that thirsty beast could use a Qjet. Keep us posted with some drag race action or tire melting burnouts as they come about. That is going to be a fun sleeper car.

01-24-12, 01:41 PM
I haven't had it above 4500 but it pulls strong all the way and seems hungry for more. The cam in there is made for higher rpm. Now that I've got it tuned, ill be able to open it up more, that will be another video for next month. I haven't noticed any drop in power but this car is limited by the gears in the rear though. According to the math, 3.73s mixed with a 3 speed tranny make best till about 90. Then I run out of gear and drop off but I've had it to about 105 with no issues. I will be better with the 3.08s which raise peak effiencency to 120. I haven't checked fuel pressure yet but tell anybody lol.

02-02-12, 08:23 PM
Hey CSbuckin,

Check out this article from the Ron Sessions TH400 Book about the converter wabble:


I had to take a picture with my phone so I couldn't put the whole page on there since it was kind of blurry.

02-02-12, 08:42 PM
Someone mentioned that and I did it a couple times but it still had a vibration. I sent it in and they said one tab was off by almost a quarter inch. Thanks though, it was driving me crazy and I couldnt rev high without the bad vibration.

02-03-12, 06:15 PM
Have you ever checked the angles of your transmission and rear axle? I had a good article saved on doing that but I can't find it now. I always checked the angles on the yokes but this article put the angle finder on the center bolts on the rear cover. It looked easier to me. You might want to google it and study up on it.

02-03-12, 06:47 PM
Yea, I was messing with the drivetrain angle and got the vibration up to about 3700RPM when I put two spacers under the rear tranny mount. It was vibrating at about 3K before that. My angle is still off. I shouldnt have put the adjustables control arms in the rear, or maybe not the upper ones.