Why are the brakes on my '04 CTS Lux. Sport so wimpy?

Has anyone upgraded?

Why are the brakes on my '04 CTS Lux. Sport so wimpy?

Has anyone upgraded?
Wimpy? I don't think so. They brake almost as well as the CTS-V! It's probably the dynamic brake proportioning that is so even on the CTS that makes it feel week.

That said, anything can be improved. Several companies are working on kits.

Yeah, wimpy. The rotors look about half as big as my wife's Saab and my former 330i. They also seem much less responsive. I have to really push the brake pedal on the CTS before they start to engage.

What's dynamic brake proportioning? I haven't heard of that on the Caddy.

I have upgraded, although my car is an 03 lux sport cts click below to see pictures

Now that's what I'm talking about!!! How much and how hard to install? (if you don't mind me asking)

Install is pretty similar to installing new brakes, the lines are of course tricky, not a diy for a first timer.....cost is a little over 2k

Install is pretty similar to installing new brakes, the lines are of course tricky, not a diy for a first timer.....cost is a little over 2k
Sigh... I can't justify that cost for something I'll only have another 2 years.

Yeah, wimpy. The rotors look about half as big as my wife's Saab and my former 330i. They also seem much less responsive. I have to really push the brake pedal on the CTS before they start to engage.
What's dynamic brake proportioning? I haven't heard of that on the Caddy.

I don't understand why your CTS' brakes would feel wimpy, it's a great system and practically stops on a dime.
In comparison:

BMW 330i
front - vented........12.8" x ?
rear - vented.........12.6" x ?
60-0 Braking: 129 ft.

Cadillac CTS
front - vented........11.9" x 1.3"
rear - vented..........11.8" x 1.0"
60-0 Braking: 121 ft. (128ft. for non-sport model)

Saab 9-3 Aero (not sure which Saab you have)
front - vented.........11.81" x ?
rear - vented...........11.42" x ?
60-0 Braking: 127 ft.

Dynamic Brake Proportioning:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/021023.htm

Be aware that 2004 CTS sport packages have very hard brake linings that greatly increase the required pedal pressures but also increase the effectivness while reducing fade. The brakes on my CTS feel like God reaches out and grabs me when I lean on the pedal.

I don't understand why your CTS' brakes would feel wimpy, it's a great system and practically stops on a dime.
In comparison:

BMW 330i
front - vented........12.8" x ?
rear - vented.........12.6" x ?
60-0 Braking: 129 ft.

Cadillac CTS
front - vented........11.9" x 1.3"
rear - vented..........11.8" x 1.0"
60-0 Braking: 121 ft. (128ft. for non-sport model)

Saab 9-3 Aero (not sure which Saab you have)
front - vented.........11.81" x ?
rear - vented...........11.42" x ?
60-0 Braking: 127 ft.

Dynamic Brake Proportioning:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/021023.htm

You confirmed my observations with the BMW. Nearly an inch bigger. The Saab 9-5 Aero Wagon we have is 12.5 and 11.81. They are bigger too.

Keep in mind my observations were based on the front wheels. 60-0 braking I can only attest to personal observations. Botht the Saab and the BMW have a more responsive brake system. When I touch the pedal I feel the brakes engage. That is very different on the CTS. You need to really push on the pedal before any stopping power really kicks in. EDIT: As an FYI, Just did a quick google search and found some BMW 330i 60-0 braking tests at 103 ft.

Here's a pic of our Saab. See for yourself.

http://www.peaks.net/saab/saab_wheel.jpg

The only pic I had of my bimmer's tire doesn't look so clean
http://www.peaks.net/saab/bmw_dirty_wheel.jpg
Don't have any pix of the CTS yet.

Be aware that 2004 CTS sport packages have very hard brake linings that greatly increase the required pedal pressures but also increase the effectivness while reducing fade. The brakes on my CTS feel like God reaches out and grabs me when I lean on the pedal.
I think the thing that bothers me is your last statement. You really have to engage the pedal to get the type of response I'm used to.

You confirmed my observations with the BMW. Nearly an inch bigger. The Saab 9-5 Aero Wagon we have is 12.5 and 11.81. They are bigger too.

My Saab sizes are straight off their website. They must use larger ones on the heavier wagons (too lazy to search right now).

My stopping distances are from articles on the Motor Trend site. All sizes are off the manufacturer's own sites. I could not find the thickness of the BMW and Saab rotors though(the thickness will effect how much venting is built in between surfaces and affects brake fade), you wouldn't happen to know the thickness do you?

Just did a quick google search and found some BMW 330i 60-0 braking tests at 103 ft.

Anything reputable or just BMW fan fiction? :p
Seriously though, the 3 series should stop quicker than the CTS. It's a much smaller car using a larger braking surface.

If you don't like how small your CTS brakes look, you can always put on the 14" CTS-V rotors and calipers (they are a direct bolt on but you need to upgrade to a larger wheel for clearance).

I had a 2000 BMW 3 series, sport and would also rate the brakes superior to the CTS Sport brakes.

The BMW came with superior tires (summer performance), and bigger rotors,
Lighter vehicle weight,
and better feel.

IMO, The BMW sport brakes are nothing less than world class. If the CTS could match them it would be a fantastic accomplishment.

On a more positive note, the brake feel of the CTS is much better than the Lincoln LS I had. I think, overall, the braking system is very good, just not world class. Never driven a V so can't comment on those.

Anything reputable or just BMW fan fiction? :p
Seriously though, the 3 series should stop quicker than the CTS. It's a much smaller car using a larger braking surface.

If you don't like how small your CTS brakes look, you can always put on the 14" CTS-V rotors and calipers (they are a direct bolt on but you need to upgrade to a larger wheel for clearance).
Motor Week is where the figure came from. The site I found also lists the figure you stated but associated it with Road & Track. (http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/kpfleger/auto/sport_sedans_2003.html) It's not how they look, but how they perform. I could care less how they look.

Motor Week is where the figure came from. The site I found also lists the figure you stated but associated it with Road & Track. (http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/kpfleger/auto/sport_sedans_2003.html) It's not how they look, but how they perform. I could care less how they look.

Okay, I found it:
"That, when coupled with ABS, brought our Cabrio tester to a stable stop from 60 in an average of 103 feet." ~MotorWeek
MotorTrend gets 129 ft.
Road&Track gets 129 ft.
Consumer Reports gets 131 ft. (not that I would believe them, but it's in your link)
Did MotorWeek have stickier tires? :halo: (my guess is that it's a typo; 130 would be in line with the others) ;)

"And as for stopping, the CTS utilizes 4-wheel disc brakes with standard ABS and traction control. These brought the car down from 60 in an average distance of 122 feet. Stability, tracking and braking feel are all excellent. These are brakes that even drivers of the CTS' European counterparts would be pleased with." ~MotorWeek

Okay, I found it:
"That, when coupled with ABS, brought our Cabrio tester to a stable stop from 60 in an average of 103 feet." ~MotorWeek
MotorTrend gets 129 ft.
Road&Track gets 129 ft.
Consumer Reports gets 131 ft. (not that I would believe them, but it's in your link)
Did MotorWeek have stickier tires? :halo: (my guess is that it's a typo; 130 would be in line with the others) ;)

"And as for stopping, the CTS utilizes 4-wheel disc brakes with standard ABS and traction control. These brought the car down from 60 in an average distance of 122 feet. Stability, tracking and braking feel are all excellent. These are brakes that even drivers of the CTS' European counterparts would be pleased with." ~MotorWeek

Interesting. Could very well be a typo. But I'll absolutely disagree with their comment about drivers of Euro counterparts being pleased. It seems two former owners have already piped up in this thread alone. (ok... I can't say I'm not pleased... but rather I appreciated braking systems of those Euro cars) But I digress... it's not the overall stopping power I've been mentioning but rather the responsiveness of the brakes -- the amount of force and distance required on the brake pedal to engage the brakes.

I still call them wimpy. ;)

If your brakes are really that bad then have your dealer check them out... maybe you got a problem!! if you really wanna be sure; Install Brembo's!!! You are sure to stop!!

Digi

If your brakes are really that bad then have your dealer check them out... maybe you got a problem!! if you really wanna be sure; Install Brembo's!!! You are sure to stop!!

Digi
It's already on my list to be checked out during the first service. Although to be fair, it's a similar squishy feel I get on almost all GM cars. So I suspect there is actually nothing wrong with the brakes but rather I'm accustomed to a different and more responsive feel.

Interesting. Could very well be a typo. But I'll absolutely disagree with their comment about drivers of Euro counterparts being pleased. It seems two former owners have already piped up in this thread alone. (ok... I can't say I'm not pleased... but rather I appreciated braking systems of those Euro cars) But I digress... it's not the overall stopping power I've been mentioning but rather the responsiveness of the brakes -- the amount of force and distance required on the brake pedal to engage the brakes.

I still call them wimpy. ;)
103 is better than most z06 reviewers get.

It's already on my list to be checked out during the first service. Although to be fair, it's a similar squishy feel I get on almost all GM cars. So I suspect there is actually nothing wrong with the brakes but rather I'm accustomed to a different and more responsive feel.

There's probably something wrong with your system.
I wholeheartedly agree that GM has not had the most spectacular track record in regards to supplying their cars with quality brakes. The CTS however, is an exception. Mine feel great and are on the level of any european sedan I have ever driven, very 'un-GM-like' in control and feel.
I'm not alone in this opinion, as every review I have read on the CTS typically praises the feel and short stopping distance considering the size of the car.

:hmm:

There's probably something wrong with your system.
I wholeheartedly agree that GM has not had the most spectacular track record in regards to supplying their cars with quality brakes. The CTS however, is an exception. Mine feel great and are on the level of any european sedan I have ever driven, very 'un-GM-like' in control and feel.
I'm not alone in this opinion, as every review I have read on the CTS typically praises the feel and short stopping distance considering the size of the car.

:hmm:
Thanks for the feedback. In all fairness, I've only ever driven one CTS (non-V) and it's the one I own. When I get there I'm going to ask to test drive another CTS for comparison.

just took my '04 in today....only have 22k and the brake pedal feels like the master cylinder is going :mad: . Got the car from my father-in-law and he had already replaced the master cylinder at 8k - anybody else seeing this?

just took my '04 in today....only have 22k and the brake pedal feels like the master cylinder is going :mad: . Got the car from my father-in-law and he had already replaced the master cylinder at 8k - anybody else seeing this?

I recently hit 20k on my 04 and brakes still perfect....and I drive the car like I stole it! I recently changed my rotors (now slotted, drilled, zinc plated) and pads (performance ceramic pads) not because of brake problems. Just wanted a different look and less dust on my wheels

I recently hit 20k on my 04 and brakes still perfect....and I drive the car like I stole it! I recently changed my rotors (now slotted, drilled, zinc plated) and pads (performance ceramic pads) not because of brake problems. Just wanted a different look and less dust on my wheels

I'm thinking you got these off Ebay? Let us know how these hold up. I'm a bit skeptical of them. If they're not cross-drilled and mill balanced properly, they will be prone to warping. Good luck with them, tho.

I'm thinking you got these off Ebay? Let us know how these hold up. I'm a bit skeptical of them. If they're not cross-drilled and mill balanced properly, they will be prone to warping. Good luck with them, tho.

Not EBay...I got them from my boy PIETRORAIMONDI. He is a member of this forum and was doing a whole bunch of upgrades to his CTS. They were done properly. His posts and threads here are very very informative and he has a wealth of information regarding the CTS. He is custom building a big brake kit which I may eventually get. I'm confident that they will hold up...(although I still have my rotors that I removed...) :bouncy:

recently changed my rotors (now slotted, drilled, zinc plated) and pads (performance ceramic pads) not because of brake problems. Just wanted a different look and less dust on my wheels

PJ,
Were did you go for the rotor work? Core charge? What'd that cost you? Why? I'd like to do that myself.
CTS Robert
Opps..rolled back the thread and found some of my answers. Does he have a website?

I found some input at the TireRack.com. Sounds like some ideas are not so good :hmm:

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?make=PowerSlot&model=Pro+Stop+Rotor

PJ,
Were did you go for the rotor work? Core charge? What'd that cost you? Why? I'd like to do that myself.
CTS Robert
Opps..rolled back the thread and found some of my answers. Does he have a website?

I don't think he has a website but he responds to posts every now and then..his responses are VERY detailed. BTW I got the rotors for $250. They were advertised in the classified section. So far so good though and I'm really happy thus far. I'm about to go out to Vegas for the New Year. I was planning on flying but the wife wants to drive instead...So I'll gas up the CTS and see how good they work for slowing from 120 mph to 75 mph when my radar goes on on the 15 freeway. :cool:

i personally think that stock brakes are awsome.... i actually got on it...once..avoiding a wreck..and it worked like a magic..no fade...no nothing..bite like pitbull~~ :thumbsup:

Pjohn, How much difference have you noticed with the new rotors and pads? Is it a small difference or a huge difference?

One of the techs at the dealership told me that the 3.6L has a very substantial braking system, more than enough for a car of its weight and size.

My old vehicle, '95 Blazer, had crap for brakes. I noticed a huge difference when I went to the Porterfield Carbon Kevlars.

Since the CTS is known to have an already substantial braking system, as opposed to crap, did you really notice a significant increase in performance?

I'm sure this is obvious, but, here goes...

Just because brakes require less muscle effort, doesn't mean they are stronger brakes. It's a matter of preference. My uncle still has a 1988 K-car rotting in his driveway (don't ask, how embarassing :halo: ). You touch the pedal with the weight of your foot and you are slowing down substantially. Does that mean in an emergency situation his car would stop quickly? Of course not. The other end of the spectrum is my dad's W -body Regal. You can stand on that pedal and not lock 'em up (non ABS car). Many of us probably know all too well about w body brakes.

In an ABS equipped car, if you can make the ABS kick in, you're stopping as fast as possible, because you're at the limit of traction. Bigger rotors and different pads will not shorten your stopping distance, they will only help prevent fade after repeated hard stops. I hate to say it and may start a war, but if you're upgrading your rotors/calipers, but never take your car to the track, and you think you're safer because you can stop quicker, you are wrong. They may look better, feel better, last longer - but they aren't stopping your car any faster. You'd be better off upgrading your tires.

If you want a quicker-acting feel, all you want are pads that are softer and stickier. Bendix Titanium would be a good choice, EBC Greenstuff might be worth looking into (though i've heard mixed things on the greenstuff's longevity).

And of course, it could be a mechanical issue.

Good luck!

I'm sure this is obvious, but, here goes....forget the rotors. All you want are pads that are softer and stickier....

Thanks for the input, but you couldnt be more wrong about brake rotors. Vented disc are an industry innovation. A lot of brake fade and stopping loss is due to overheated discs and brakepad gas buildup btw the 2 surfaces.

Vented disc solves this problem. There is also a new generation of vented disc that is slotted as compared to the older cross drilled. The slotted design offers comparable venting, increased disc strength, and increased disc surface area.

The addition of Ceramic disc also disepates heat much faster then steel. Cheap rotors tend to warp, while performance rotors don't. Warped discs dont stop very well.

Hope this helps change your mind about performance brake rotors.

Vented discs may be an inovation but it's not new. I saw drilled discs and drums both, at least thirty years ago.

Vented discs may be an innovation but it's not new. I saw drilled discs and drums both, at least thirty years ago.

Vented discs may be an innovation but it's not new. I saw drilled discs and drums both, at least thirty years ago.

I didnt say vented disc was new, I said there is a newer generation of vented disc out there. The industry is moving away from cross drilled, and more towards slotted. And of course slotted isnt even that new anymore.

briandors has a point, here. Brake fade is caused by gas buildup due to overheated brakes . . . definitely an issue at the track. But under normal everyday driving, this shouldn't be an issue. ABS stops the car as fast as possible. It pulses the calipers when it senses individual wheel lockup. Under normal (not over heated) conditions, drilled and slotted rotors may actually slightly increase (if anything) braking distance, since there is marginally LESS surface area.

Now, if you're in heavy stop and go traffic and really stand on the brakes, heating them to the point that ABS isn't helping . . . YES, you need drilled and slotted . . . or larger (like the V) rotors.

Other than the hype of 'shorter stopping distances', I'm certain most folks put drilled rotors on for the looks. The CTS brakes are certainly more than enough for everyday folks (they were on the cars at Nurburgring when GM developed the suspension). 12" rotors are only small when compared to 13" or 14". Go look at a mid-80's Mustang GT's brakes. Scary, considering it had a V8.

I do agree that the newer slotted designs are much more durable than the old style drilled rotors, which are prone to cracking under long-term repeated high-heat conditions.

Kozloski,
You're stuttering with 2 identical posts :histeric:
I think you're referring to the race boys of yesteryear with drilled and vented brakes along with cooling ducts.
I think they're rather new for the street scene. The showboats and ricers are using big wheels to display their colorful rotors and calipers. It's more for show than braking IMO.

You're just making fun of me because I talk funny. I had drilled twin discs on my Dunstall Norton Commando 810 in 1972. On the street.

CTS Orlando-

Some of your nomenclature is off. What you said is mostly correct.

The CTS has vented rotors from the factory. Vented does NOT equal cross-drilled or slotted. Vented means that between the two outer layers of the rotor where the calipers are squeezing, there are vanes going from the outside of the rotor to the center of the rotor. The angle of the vanes picks up fresh air as the wheel spins, thus cooling the rotor.

My point was, will larger rotors and/or calipers, with or without cross drilling or slotting, shorten stopping distance in normal driving?
Answer is No.
In a typical panic stop situation?
Answer is NO.

That is all that I am saying. Unless you are a street racer or see track time, your upgrades do NOT make your car stop in a shorter distance. It's simple physics, once ABS has kicked in, the limit of friction has been reached between the rubber and the road. The fact that ABS has kicked in signifies more usable friction exists between pad and rotor, than between tire and street. So why upgrade to an even higher level of friction ?

Once you talk about repeated hard braking, the whole story is much much different.

Something else J-W could consider...

If he left all his brake hardware the same but upgraded to SS brake lines, he would also get the effect he's looking for. SS doesn't slightly expand under pressure like the rubber lines. The fluid has less volume to fill, and so the pedal feels firmer and brakes feel more responsive to foot inputs.

In my first post in this thread, I had suggested a different pad compound because that's cheaper and easier. Both together would be ideal.

briandors, you are exactly right. If all you want is one, good, hard, panic stop, you might as well stick to drum brakes. If your braking system will hold the wheel at a point just before breaking traction and the system is balanced front to rear it doesn't matter what the design is. When you have an application involving heat buildup with mutiple or extended stopping is where all the gimmicks come in. Logging truckers in the west sprayed the brakes with water for years. The biggest advantage with ABS is that it treats each wheel independently where with an educated foot you can only release and apply all wheels at once. With ABS, even if you only have one wheel with good traction you can still stop well on bad surfaces and ABS works with drum brakes. I'm not advocating drum brakes over disc but you have to be working your brakes pretty hard for you to require exotic braking features on the street. Get behind an educated and experienced driver on a steep mountain road and you will seldom see the brake lights come on but you will see him working the transmission for engine braking. If you're having problems with braking performance with your street machine you don't need better brakes you need the Jim Russell Driving School.

CTS Orlando-

Once you talk about repeated hard braking, the whole story is much much different.

Maybe we've seen to many chase scences through the hilly street of San Francisco at the movies? That will overheat your pads! ;)

Maybe we've seen to many chase scences through the hilly street of San Francisco at the movies? That will overheat your pads! ;)

Ahh yes, one of a few Mustangs I'd enjoy owning. :yup:
Maybe I'll have to pop in that DVD tonight, its great to watch chase scenes in slow mo. Bit of useless trivia about Bullitt: as they are racing, count how many hubcaps fly off the black Charger during hard turns. Hint: answer is more than 4. No wonder the bad guys lost. Everytime a hub cap flew off they pulled over to put it back on! :bonkers:

Ahh yes, one of a few Mustangs I'd enjoy owning. :yup:
Maybe I'll have to pop in that DVD tonight, its great to watch chase scenes in slow mo. Bit of useless trivia about Bullitt: as they are racing, count how many hubcaps fly off the black Charger during hard turns. Hint: answer is more than 4. No wonder the bad guys lost. Everytime a hub cap flew off they pulled over to put it back on! :bonkers:

Steve McQueen, right?

Yup.

Also recommended for people who like high-end Euro sports cars: "Ronin". Some serious chases through very narrow streets.

Bullitt is still the definitive chase scene but there used to be a Gulf Oil commercial featuring Mark Donohue driving one of Roger Penske's Camaros that I recorded and watched over and over.

Bullitt is still the definitive chase scene but there used to be a Gulf Oil commercial featuring Mark Donohue driving one of Roger Penske's Camaros that I recorded and watched over and over.

Mark Donohue..What a loss to race fans. I was a big Penske/Donohue fan.
I'm still following Penske today in the NASCAR Cup Series. I never saw the Camaro feature but would love to! Gotta a way to copy? I'd reimburse any expenses. I live near Mid-Ohio Race track and watched this hero race.

Speaking of "over and over". I carry a copy of Led Zep's "Rock & Roll" in the CTS. I love to crank it up on the back roads of Ohio :thumbsup:

CTS Orlando-

Some of your nomenclature is off. What you said is mostly correct.

My point was, will larger rotors and/or calipers, with or without cross drilling or slotting, shorten stopping distance in normal driving?
Answer is No.
In a typical panic stop situation?
Answer is NO.

That is all that I am saying. Unless you are a street racer or see track time, your upgrades do NOT make your car stop in a shorter distance. It's simple physics, once ABS has kicked in, the limit of friction has been reached between the rubber and the road. The fact that ABS has kicked in signifies more usable friction exists between pad and rotor, than between tire and street. So why upgrade to an even higher level of friction ?

Once you talk about repeated hard braking, the whole story is much much different.


:bonkers: :worship:

Ok, point taken, I stand corrected. You are accurate in your specific application for each type setup. Granted, if we all drive like human beings, then nobody would need extra stopping distance. As for myself, I drive like a freakin maniac. I have found the factory CTS brakes to be more the sufficient for every condition that I have braked under. I will say though, that for somebody who likes to take the highway with a little sport, slotted/drilled rotors would definatly reduce some brake fade under hard driving and braking. Bottom line, you're right, the CTS does not need better rotors, and would only see a marginal benefit from better pads. I would like to say however, that those CTS drivers with the 20inch Bling wheels, have considerably more unsprung weight, and may actually benefit from a larger caliper/disc setup.

RobertCTS, CD1 track10 Led Zep on my machine. The commercial eventually got recorded over. Sorry.

Something else to consider when putting larger rotors on.

You are increasing the amount of weight you have to get moving everytime you accelerate. This will minimually decrease acceleration rate, may even minimually increase stopping distances with increased weight. With this in mind I think the best solution to decrease braking distances would be increasing friction of tires between the road. Buy some stickier tires. Again watch weights of tires.

One more thought. I recently sold a car that I had upgraded the brakes to Baer brakes. When I talked to the tech at Baer about the brakes I asked about drilling them. Did they help in stopping. His answer was basically no, maybe in a extreme case they might. Extreme as in racing on a course that is very hard on brakes. He said putting a home made air cooling system would be much more effective on a race car. Its mostly for looks he said. This was a system that was using for the most part late model Vet brakes. It was a great upgrade on a '65 GTO with 4 wheel drums to 4 wheel discs. You could tell the difference. It was a night and day difference. I don't think anbody that is using a CTS on the street will see a big improvement. I'd love to see some impartial testing on any system. How much of an improvement over stock, affect on acceleration rates. I can't believe that you'd see a drastic improvement to justify 2K in brakes. I think you'd be better off buying some sticky tires.

...With this in mind I think the best solution to decrease braking distances would be increasing friction of tires between the road....


Thats right, because increasing rolling resistance helps you launch off the line. :cookoo:

Something else to consider when putting larger rotors on.

You are increasing the amount of weight you have to get moving everytime you accelerate. This will minimually decrease acceleration rate, may even minimually increase stopping distances with increased weight. With this in mind I think the best solution to decrease braking distances would be increasing friction of tires between the road. Buy some stickier tires. Again watch weights of tires.

Rotor and Caliper weight becomes moot here in the snow belt. A lot of us are carrying 100 lbs of salt in our trunks :yawn:

Rotor and Caliper weight becomes moot here in the snow belt. A lot of us are carrying 100 lbs of salt in our trunks :yawn:

Yeah, on another thread I tried to explain to a "kid" why, after growing up with RWD, I never wanted to return to it. I live in Minnesota. I have driven either 4X4's, AWD or FWD for 20 years now, I won't go back, not for every day driving anyway. It's different to have a weekend car for "tooling" around in, though.