: Uh Oh, mods detected or inferred = ending of warranty



jlford30
06-14-09, 05:40 PM
Was trying to do research on the Auto tranny mod to get rid of the sluggishness of the stock shifts and I found this.....

www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/feb09.pdf


:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

:hide:

jlford30
06-14-09, 05:42 PM
Wonder how they detect if stuff was changed and changed back to factory default?



:annoyed:

jlford30
06-14-09, 05:43 PM
and how do you get the J63 brake package?

jwa999
06-14-09, 06:13 PM
I had w4m max performance ecu/tcu installed. Transmission failed. Restored to stock. Got new transmission under warranty. Nobody noticed I had a tune that was subsequently restored to stock. About to put the tunes back on. Sorry, the tunes are just too much fun. I'll take the risk. New tranny was around $2500.

jlford30
06-14-09, 06:57 PM
Installed and all was $2500? Was yours the automatic? or 6 speed?

jwa999
06-14-09, 07:26 PM
The auto tranny was around $2500. They did a bunch of testing on the failed transmission and billed the loaner car for 8 days. Total billed to GM was $3400. It didn't take them very long to install the new transmission.
Don't know if they actually looked for any mods. The failure was quite unique, 5th gear totally failed to engage.

GMX322V S/C
06-14-09, 07:29 PM
Jesse/Wait4Me says he spent a lot of time ensuring that his tunes leave no fingerprints after they're backed out. Still, I suppose it wouldn't hurt for him to have a look at GM service bulletins 08-06-04-033 and 08-06-04-006 just for um, curiosity's sake. What do you say Jesse?

qictrk
06-14-09, 07:52 PM
Anyone getting mods done must realize that if your caught, you pay. You take that chance when you mod and that includes me. I've done all kinds of mods with almost everything that W4M has to offer. I go into it knowing that there are no guarrentees. If you can't afford to get caught, then don't do it, these are still very fast cars in stock form. GM has hired people just like Jesse to find all these mods and sometime they win. You mod at your own risk. Cecil.........

MauiV
06-14-09, 08:02 PM
Your PCM counts key turns and they can read it on a TECH II. Having 2 computers is probably a pretty good idea, just try to make sure you put some turns on the stock one before you take it back in to the dealer. 4000 miles and 2 key turns between visits looks a bit shady.

neuronbob
06-14-09, 08:46 PM
What is a "key turn" in reference to this situation?

jwa999
06-14-09, 08:54 PM
I think what he's saying is that the PCM counts the number of times you start the car. And when you restore it to stock that number would be reset or restored. Can't comment if that is happening.

CVP33
06-14-09, 09:06 PM
Been down this road fellas. I'm sure W4M has done his homework. Now get this. When I was being denied warranty claims by my Caddy Dealer on my 2005 CTS-V the dealer actually asked a local tuner for help. The tuner just happens to be the one who installed my ProCharger on my 300. Small world. My guess is the average ASE mechanic doesn't know what their looking for on a "flashed" PCM. It takes a tuner to catch a tuner. :lildevil:

MauiV
06-14-09, 09:21 PM
Yes the PCM counts how many times the car has been started and it isnt hard to find on a TECH II.

GM recently sent out a message to service departments about major drivetrain replacements work and specified what to do with the TECH II, to take a digital picture and email it to Corporate so they can determine if the PCM has been "tuned" so they can then deny the claim.

I saw the actual message somewhere here, I think its in the V1 forum somewhere but I cant find it.

jlford30
06-14-09, 09:27 PM
True, if I blow an engine like a Dumb@$$ then sure I'll pay, but that has no effect on .... lets say the moon roof, or the nav etc.... if they fail and GM detected a tune job but the engine is somewhat modded with bolt ons and a tune should they void "everything"? or just power train.....

I realize this is almost becoming a man vs. auto flamefest so I was just putting out info for perusal and see what people thought.
So is the dividing line of warranty yanking mainly programming or are things like CAI, exhausts included in that? I figure pullies, intercooler, harmonic balancer, throttle body etc are no-no's

jlford30
06-14-09, 09:28 PM
True, if I blow an engine like a Dumb@$$ then sure I'll pay, but that has no effect on .... lets say the moon roof, or the nav etc.... if they fail and GM detected a tune job but the engine is somewhat modded with bolt ons and a tune should they void "everything"? or just power train.....

I realize this is almost becoming a man vs. auto flamefest so I was just putting out info for perusal and see what people thought.
So is the dividing line of warranty yanking mainly programming or are things like CAI, exhausts included in that? I figure pullies, intercooler, harmonic balancer, throttle body etc are no-no's

CadV
06-14-09, 09:57 PM
Find a good service guy and be straight with him. A good place to start is where you bought your car.

The guy I deal with knows what I am doing. They get paid for the work so putting some effort into the relationship goes a long way. My service guy gets rewarded for nice surveys and I always call and speak with his service manager. He in turn takes care of me.

If you take everything back to stock you will be fine. My service guy told me to remove all the mods before I brought it in on major work because they will have people checking the car.

If the warranty is a big deal for you then don't mod your car. It is simple logic really, remove the possibility and there is no risk.

CVP33
06-14-09, 10:04 PM
True, if I blow an engine like a Dumb@$$ then sure I'll pay, but that has no effect on .... lets say the moon roof, or the nav etc.... if they fail and GM detected a tune job but the engine is somewhat modded with bolt ons and a tune should they void "everything"? or just power train.....

I realize this is almost becoming a man vs. auto flamefest so I was just putting out info for perusal and see what people thought.
So is the dividing line of warranty yanking mainly programming or are things like CAI, exhausts included in that? I figure pullies, intercooler, harmonic balancer, throttle body etc are no-no's

Well it depends. The 2005 CTS-V came with 245/45/18 rear tires. I put 255/45/18's on. The regional rep' denied my rear differential repair claiming that the extra width on the tires hastened the failure. Oiled K&N style air filters come to mind as an easy way to deny a claim. It really is their game their rules so unless you're willing to sue them, you're SOL. Lot's of people complained about the dealers and lot's of people threatened to do something, but when it's you vs. a TEAM of corporate lawyers....well how deep are your pockets?

ewill3rd
06-15-09, 07:51 AM
If the modification directly affects the operation of a system, that system warranty becomes nullified. As far as I am concerned I have to be able to prove that the mode affected it before I'll make noise.

If one bit is changed in the calibrations it will be detected using the method identified in that publication, period. I suppose a good "tuner" could play with the bits to come up with the right number but it would take some serious time.

It seems pretty idiot proof to know that if you modify something it isn't factory equipment anymore and the bill is on you, but as many times as I hear this argument it must be a pretty hard concept to grasp.
We are probably the most lenient dealer for this in the country so don't start chewing me out.
:lol:

Razorecko
06-15-09, 08:30 AM
You pay to play. If you have a tune from a friends friend who owns a "shop" and it nukes well than time to pay up. Thats just like if you lower you car and one of your shocks starts leaking immediatley after. Pay up. Now they say your powertrain warranty will be void if you get caught with a tune dont be suprised. If you up 50hp with a tune and launch the crap out of your v untill the diff lunches itself well than who's really to blame ? In all of these cases a true enthusiasts rebuilds....and rebuilds much much stronger =)

CadV
06-15-09, 08:43 AM
You pay to play. If you have a tune from a friends friend who owns a "shop" and it nukes well than time to pay up. Thats just like if you lower you car and one of your shocks starts leaking immediatley after. Pay up. Now they say your powertrain warranty will be void if you get caught with a tune dont be suprised. If you up 50hp with a tune and launch the crap out of your v untill the diff lunches itself well than who's really to blame ? In all of these cases a true enthusiasts rebuilds....and rebuilds much much stronger =)

Yeah I am not a big fan of launching cars or taking it to the track because of all the stuff I have broken because of it. Highway rolls are enough to get my fix :p

BTW did you ever figure out the 4" air intake problem?

neuronbob
06-15-09, 10:50 AM
Well, this certainly makes my decision to buy a tranny tune more complicated. At this point, I think I'm just going to stay stock. I'm gun shy about GM's warranty in particular because of the financial situation they find themselves in, so I'm sure it won't take much to nullify parts of it to save a few $$$.

I say this, having modded my last two daily drivers and having had no problems on the warranty front, but still...

Florian
06-15-09, 11:54 AM
Since 2008 GM has put in software to detect any uploads to your ECM....go ahead and tune/tweak...they will know and you could be royally screwed.


F

Razorecko
06-15-09, 12:51 PM
Yeah I am not a big fan of launching cars or taking it to the track because of all the stuff I have broken because of it. Highway rolls are enough to get my fix :p

BTW did you ever figure out the 4" air intake problem?

I think so but I'll find out in a couple hours when I get on it. Basically there is NO airflow in there. Looking at it further the design is ridiculous. The whole bottom is closed w/ the underbody panel and the only air coming in goes directly through a duct and tubed straight to the caliper...VERY VERY Rarely will you need that type of cooling on your rotor/caliper unless you're tracking heavily. I pulled the duct right out. Now the air comes right in from the fog light section and right into the filter. We will see if this makes a difference. I also have no tune at all so this is completely on a stock system

chukk
06-15-09, 02:02 PM
Sorry if this has been covered already... I wasn't planning on doing any major mods while under warranty, but was considering the hand-held tune for the auto.

Question: Can you avoid the dealer scrutiny by keeping your ECM/TCM in its original condition at home and have W4M program a tuned ECM/TCM to use for daily driving? Put the original ECM/TCM back in prior to servicing? Can they detect this? Probably a stupid question and if so, feel free to flame. On my Syclone, they had a tamper-proof label to keep you from getting in and changing the chip, but things have come a long way. Thanks in advance.

jwa999
06-15-09, 02:19 PM
Question: Can you avoid the dealer scrutiny by keeping your ECM/TCM in its original condition at home and have W4M program a tuned ECM/TCM to use for daily driving? Put the original ECM/TCM back in prior to servicing? Can they detect this? Probably a stupid question and if so, feel free to flame. On my Syclone, they had a tamper-proof label to keep you from getting in and changing the chip, but things have come a long way. Thanks in advance.

That is the main goal of Jesse's tune. Allow you to return it to stock without detection. So far so good. There have been no reports that GM has detected it. But there are several posters here that have noted that there might be ways for GM to find signatures of tampering. Such as the number of times the car has started, or a record of how many times the ECU has been flashed. Its impossible to know until somebody gets busted.

qictrk
06-15-09, 02:38 PM
That is the main goal of Jesse's tune. Allow you to return it to stock without detection. So far so good. There have been no reports that GM has detected it. But there are several posters here that have noted that there might be ways for GM to find signatures of tampering. Such as the number of times the car has started, or a record of how many times the ECU has been flashed. Its impossible to know until somebody gets busted.

And that my lead to a line of people getting busted. It opens the door to the rest of us if something similar happens. As was stated before: You pay to play. Cecil............

MauiV
06-15-09, 02:38 PM
I would say to be safe own 2 PCMs, keep the stock one for trips to the dealer. Like I said before though, it does count key turns so make sure that you load up the stock one before a return visit.

wait4me
06-15-09, 04:24 PM
Since 2008 GM has put in software to detect any uploads to your ECM....go ahead and tune/tweak...they will know and you could be royally screwed.


F


Florian,

That is only in the diesel Bosch LMM style controller and the allison last generation transmission controller. It wasnt until 2009 that SOME operating sytems in the e67 gas engine controller have the other stuff activated where it will store programming events. Also the t43 transmission controller. However there are definately ways around anything in this world....

ewill3rd
06-15-09, 04:45 PM
I can check CVN numbers as far back as any EEPROM programming has been in effect as far as I know.
I have done it on several cars. I don't do it to see if you guys have been playing, I do it to make sure I don't nuke a custom tune or to make sure that you don't have software that might be interfering with my diagnosis. GM wants me to do it to void your powertrain warranty but....

We don't care about ignition cycles, that is meaningless. You can turn the key on and off a hundred times in the driveway or once on a 2,000 mile trip, it doesn't have any affect on anything.
Sneaks can keep a matched set TCM/ECM laying about with stock cals in it or if you can reflash it to OE before coming in for service then the CVN numbers will match and the car will start (presumeably).

wait4me
06-15-09, 04:57 PM
Also, when you say ANY uploads, that is not valid. It wont store anything if it thinks it is stock...... :D

garfin
06-15-09, 05:12 PM
If the modification directly affects the operation of a system, that system warranty becomes nullified. As far as I am concerned I have to be able to prove that the mode affected it before I'll make noise.


Bingo! This is exactly what is specified in the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act (1975)

Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers.

Best regardSS,

Elie

CVP33
06-15-09, 06:15 PM
We are probably the most lenient dealer for this in the country so don't start chewing me out.
:lol:

Agreed! I said all along, if I lived within 30 minutes of you guys vs. 3.5 hours, I'd have had an entirely different ownership experience. You guys rock. :thumbsup:

The Tony Show
06-15-09, 06:26 PM
Bingo! This is exactly what is specified in the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act (1975)

Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers.

Best regardSS,

Elie

The problem with Internet forum posters constantly citing Magnuson Moss is the following statement:

....a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle.....

The MM act prohibits Manufacturers from just saying "You have an aftermarket air filter, so *poof*- your entire warranty is gone", but does not limit them in any way from denying your powertrain warranty claim if any power adding modifications or alterations to the calibration of the drivetrain are present.

I can assure you that if GM tells you your powertrain warranty is gone, it's gone. You can't get it back by shouting "Magnuson Moss act!" at them. The only way it'll happen is if you lawyer up at great expense to yourself, find a technical expert willing to testify that he knows more than GM's engineers (not likely), and then somehow convince the judge that a 3rd party knows more about the limits of GM's machinery than the people who designed it.

Bottom line is that any warranty on a purchased item is offered on the item "as delivered". I'm well aware of the fact that if I rewired the circuitry on my Plasma TV to get a brighter picture, then it died, I'm on my own. I have always operated under the same understanding when I've modified my cars.

jlford30
06-15-09, 07:26 PM
Bottom line is that any warranty on a purchased item is offered on the item "as delivered". I'm well aware of the fact that if I rewired the circuitry on my Plasma TV to get a brighter picture, then it died, I'm on my own. I have always operated under the same understanding when I've modified my cars.


Well this is a straw man arguement if I have ever heard one, but I'll bite.
We are talking adjusting contrast, brightness, aspect ratio etc. Not jury rigging anything. We are talking controls, or dials if you will, that effect the picture or performace, if it was hands off, then they should have a protection system in place to block that off, but they don't. For example, put a disclaimer over the cover to access the OBD port that says void if removed by anyone other than a certified technician. "You", as in the customer, crack the motor for heads, cam etc. Warranty void, this is with in reason. But a "tune", don't the service guys also "tune" motors?

True, the warranty is "as delivered" however, to keep to the subject about cars, does that mean if one thing gets changed on the vehicle from the date you drive off the lot voids the warranty? So no going to a mechanic to get any work done unless it's the dealership? No, I refuse to except this isolation principle.

2K9 CTS-V
06-15-09, 08:02 PM
I traded a diesel in for this car. I have seen this issue hashed/rehashed thousands of times in the last ten years. The most interesting part of this argument for me is how close to stealing this all sounds.

I modified my engine parameters from stock and damaged my drivetrain in some way - do you think If I returned the parameters to stack GM will pay for the repair?

I do not understand how someone could be upset if GM denied warranty coverage on an item that was potentially affected by YOUR modifications. If you operate the vehicle within the parameters they programmed at the factory, I believe they have a legal / moral obligation to cover damage in accordance with their warranty agreement.

If you modify the vehicle to operate outside of their parameters I believe any waranty claim they honor on parts affected by these modifications are by their good grace. Returning the PCM back to stock for the purposes of obtaining a warranty claim on parts potentially affected by YOUR modifications is akin to insurance fraud.

The good news is, I am sure no one from GM reads these forums, and with so many of these cars in production, I am sure they would never be able to figure out how some people are trying to cheat them...

Now, I will be the first in line for condemning GM for denying warranty claims on parts that are in no way related to a cutomer's modifications.

Modify to your heatr's content. These are awesome machines! Just be prepared to face the music if you break something in the process. Or, if you really want to play it safe, take the mods/tuner/parts to your service department and pay them to install them. It kinda makes it difficult for the dealer to deny a warranty claim due to a modification they installed. I would think one would have a reasonable arguement the dealer's installation implied the modifications were Ok with GM.

qictrk
06-15-09, 08:56 PM
Well this is a straw man arguement if I have ever heard one, but I'll bite.
We are talking adjusting contrast, brightness, aspect ratio etc. Not jury rigging anything. We are talking controls, or dials if you will, that effect the picture or performace, if it was hands off, then they should have a protection system in place to block that off, but they don't. For example, put a disclaimer over the cover to access the OBD port that says void if removed by anyone other than a certified technician. "You", as in the customer, crack the motor for heads, cam etc. Warranty void, this is with in reason. But a "tune", don't the service guys also "tune" motors?

True, the warranty is "as delivered" however, to keep to the subject about cars, does that mean if one thing gets changed on the vehicle from the date you drive off the lot voids the warranty? So no going to a mechanic to get any work done unless it's the dealership? No, I refuse to except this isolation principle.
I think what Tony is saying is that a tune that creates more hp can void your warranty if the dealership so chooses. They are not going to say anything if you just change plugs, air cleaner, etc. They will contend that the increase in hp can cause a failure to the drivetrain, because it was not warranted for the increase in power. Thats where the lawyers come in. If you want to keep your warranty, you can always check with the dealership before you make your alteration and see what they say. Cecil..........;)

The Tony Show
06-15-09, 09:10 PM
Well this is a straw man arguement if I have ever heard one, but I'll bite.
We are talking adjusting contrast, brightness, aspect ratio etc. Not jury rigging anything. We are talking controls, or dials if you will, that effect the picture or performace, if it was hands off, then they should have a protection system in place to block that off, but they don't.

Actually, I was talking jury rigging. Doing anything to the TV that the buttons on the box and remote control won't let me do runs the risk of voiding the warranty (for example: accessing the service menu and tinkering with the RGB and white cuts and causing burn-in). If GM's warranty covered things like changing the spark timing, fan settings, boost controller or fuel injectors, they'd have put dials on the dash to let you adjust them.


For example, put a disclaimer over the cover to access the OBD port that says void if removed by anyone other than a certified technician.

They can't put stickers all over the car, so they put it in the owner's manual. "Damage caused as a result of aleration or modification of the vehicle including (but not limited to) the body, chassis or components after final assembly by GM is not covered by the warranty."


"You", as in the customer, crack the motor for heads, cam etc. Warranty void, this is with in reason. But a "tune", don't the service guys also "tune" motors?

Nope- they may occasionally install new software provided to them by GM, but they never tinker with settings in the PCM unless specifically instructed by GM.


True, the warranty is "as delivered" however, to keep to the subject about cars, does that mean if one thing gets changed on the vehicle from the date you drive off the lot voids the warranty? So no going to a mechanic to get any work done unless it's the dealership? No, I refuse to except this isolation principle.

Technically, that is correct. If you go to a mechanic (not the dealer) and they alter a part on the car or use improper parts which results in damage to the vehicle, the liability is on them to fix it- not GM. Your GM warranty protects you in the event that the car fails to perform properly when assembled by them with the parts they built.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here- I've been modding cars for a long time now, so don't think I'm getting down on modders. All I'm saying is that Internet forums have a habit of breeding a mentality that the OEM are a bunch of jerks for denying warranty claims because of mods, but if you take your emotion out the equation and look at it as a business owner, you'd see why they do.

My '04 CTS-V had no drivetrain warranty after I installed a flywheel, headers, tune, intake and lots of others stuff, and I accepted that because GM didn't design the car with that combination of parts and tune. If you're going to mod stuff on something as complex as a car, you might as well forget you ever heard about Magnuson Moss and just be prepared to pay if something breaks, because the law favors the OEM.

jlford30
06-15-09, 09:45 PM
So if I added mods like CAI etc etc. bolt on is kinda okay, but tune is hinkey? (boiled down, out in the open no bull$H!7 question)
They do add buttons....sport mode, TC etc. But I get your point.
I still remember my SS camaro I took the hideous huge filter cover that was 9 gazillion times too big, off and replaced it with a smaller one with a K&N filter, I hate to think that "voids" a warranty.
The way it's worded now is if it's Friday and dude pulls in a K&N filter or CAI......VOID IT!!!!! But Monday, "eh I'll work on it".

The Tony Show
06-15-09, 10:10 PM
Just to be clear: Dealers don't say "no" on warranty issues- the OEM (in this case, GM) does. If the Dealer thinks a failure is caused by an aftermarket part, they tell GM and GM makes the decision to pay the warranty claim or not. If you know the Dealer well, they'll turn a blind eye to modifications and replace stuff under warranty anyway, taking the OEM's opportunity to say no out of the loop.

It all comes down to two things: How well do you know your dealer, and how much you're willing to roll the dice. I've been lucky all these years in the latter, in that I've never broken something that would cause the Dealer to start looking for things to blame it on. My 04 V had problems with the Nav, memory seats and other little stuff, but nothing anyone could point a finger at a mod for. If I'd blown the engine after installing a PCM, you can bet that they wouldn't have been so generous about "not noticing" my mods.

If you have a good relationship with your Service Dept (or even talk to the manager first and find out what their stance on mods is), you shouldn't have anything to worry about- as long as something really bad doesn't break on your car. Even in that case though, it's possible to swap back to stock and not give them a reason to think the car is modded and you'll probably be alright. Check out the "transmission failure diagnosis" thread to see what I mean.

jlford30
06-15-09, 10:44 PM
Makes sense.... bribe...I mean communicate with the service department...lol

I don't plan on detonating an engine or tranny.

Anyone deal with Cavander or Batchelor Cadillac in San Antonio? I think Cavander may be out since I probably will not buy from them, they are not negotiating and if I drive in with a CTS-V I got from somewhere else they may not be happy with me.

vperl
06-15-09, 11:22 PM
Makes sense.... bribe...I mean communicate with the service department...lol

I don't plan on detonating an engine or tranny.

Anyone deal with Cavander or Batchelor Cadillac in San Antonio? I think Cavander may be out since I probably will not buy from them, they are not negotiating and if I drive in with a CTS-V I got from somewhere else they may not be happy with me.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I tried my local dealers and they were not dealing, I went them 4-5 times spent time explaining to them I was not a lookie lew.
They had to deal or go fish.... they decided to go fish

So when I showed up with the V and every other time since at one of these dealerships, they treated me the very best, the very best.

If you worry about what a dealerships thinks, they " WIN"
your the customer, use the customer satisfation form....

jlford30
06-16-09, 12:11 AM
Will have to do that, thanks!!!

Tony407
06-16-09, 04:26 AM
Most everyone has made some valid points.

But whatever you believe, you can rest assured that GM technicians lurk around these forums. So it's probably not a good idea to be bragging about too many of your tunes or mods. Assume that if we all read it, they can too. Funny thing is, that even if a particular part or system fails, it really doesn't matter WHY it failed - if a dealership can find a modification that somehow affects it, they'll deny a claim in a heartbeat. Too many dealerships will fix a problem under warranty only to be denied being reimbursed by the manufacturer later. This is evidenced by the fact that GM is now requiring dealerships to take snapshots of their diagnostic screens BEFORE a warranty will be honored,to make certain no aftermarket modifications have been made. Serious stuff.

And like others have said, unless you have deep pockets, what can you REALLY do? Trying to tie an auto tranny mod to a faulty moonroof is one thing, but attributing a failed transmission to the same mod is fairly easy.

This is one reason I fought so hard to get Jaguar to buy back my 2009 XF. It had so many problems and glitches that I couldn't possibly dream of modifying anything for fear that such mods would then start voiding warranties for systems that ALREADY were having problems! Not being able to mod my car was just plain depressing, and takes most of the fun out of the car ownership experience, you know? But doing so can have its consequences and you'd better be prepared to pay the price.

Tony

ewill3rd
06-16-09, 06:58 AM
Just to clarify, if you alter the spark timing or fuel trims or anything with the engine controller software (basically) then your car is now in violation of federal emissions law.
Every calibration that GM releases for us to use has been EPA tested in a car. If a program is altered in a car to take it away from EPA tested specifications it no longer meets EPA standards and it has to be resubmitted to EPA for testing.
I'm not saying it should have to be, I am just sayin....

As far as GM is concerned, if you change it you must really know what you are doing but you are taking it away from their tested and certified design so it falls on you to take care of it should it break.
I recommend that people put up with it for the length of warranty and roll the dice after that.
I also always remind people that performance and reliability are often on opposite ends of a scale, as one goes up the other usually goes down. Your car might go faster or be quicker in a 1/4 mile but it might leave you stranded more often and parts will break at an accelerated rate. I've only been doing this for about 18 years though, so I still have a lot to learn. ;)

Razorecko
06-16-09, 10:20 AM
^ yep, if you upgrade your car don't expect to follow oem maintenance schedules. Upped boost and slicks might require you to do fluid changes in half the intervals that are in the book. Early fluid changes in my opinion are probaly the cheapest preventative maintenance when it comes to mods.

NapperV
06-16-09, 12:12 PM
I told a mechanic who bought my traded GTO...he said load any tune..if it causes failure WE WILL REFLASH IT WITH OUR TUNE AND YOUR COVERED.


Mod friendly dealers are out there...remeber they eat breathe and sleep cars day in and out.


they respect honesty and the fact that my modded trade cars ran like stock( 400 rwhp GTO)..... might have helped...they knew i wasn't some idiot who just loaded up stuff.

the mechanic even commented on the spot on tune.....i didn't do it but i paid for it ...to be spot on.

MReiland
06-16-09, 11:03 PM
The good news is, I am sure no one from GM reads these forums, and with so many of these cars in production, I am sure they would never be able to figure out how some people are trying to cheat them...


Bzzzzzt Wrong Answer..... We're everywhere!

However, I have absolutely nothing to do with Warranty claims, so you are all safe.... :shhh: from me......

vperl
06-17-09, 12:22 AM
You can bet your bippy that people are looking at this site, and even using that nasty thing called GOGGLE.

Goggle scans all the forums and if you know what and how to use Goggle they can go directly to what they are looking for.

Also they can get enough info to know where you are located, state, maybe even city..... with the millions of V2 out there they may have a hard time making a list and get some real good lists..

Some folks are on those " social" sites and use a user name much like they use other places...

I suspect if your really sneaky they might not figure out who you are , but how many V2's are there in Salt Lake City, and red to boot..... they know ..... we know

Tony407
06-17-09, 01:35 AM
You can bet your bippy that people are looking at this site, and even using that nasty thing called GOGGLE.


By saying GOGGLE, I assume you mean Google? :cookoo:

j/k I couldn't resist.

Tony

vperl
06-17-09, 01:40 AM
By saying GOGGLE, I assume you mean Google? :cookoo:

j/k I couldn't resist.

Tony

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Tony407 cannot resist doing the bing on you ...

MyFace?

See it is easy

Tony407
06-17-09, 02:07 AM
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Tony407 cannot resist doing the bing on you ...

MyFace?

See it is easy

Must be a generation gap between us! LOL

I don't get it. :hmm:

Tony

vperl
06-17-09, 02:29 AM
Must be a generation gap between us! LOL

I don't get it. :hmm:

Tony

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bing ? (secret weapon)

Seems you have mentioned you live in PDX, and have done alot of travel from the west coast to florida Via Texas, is that totally wrong, that guy was 36 when posted...

Beaverton guy, west hills?

probably all wrong


One mention his problem getting a special ID Card....
not sure if that fits, probably not

rp161
06-17-09, 08:56 AM
I have been doing high performance cars for 43 years and as stated before, it has always been if you want to
play, you have to pay.

kencav
06-17-09, 09:07 AM
With all this talk of "play and pay " it would also be in GM/Cadillacs best interests to work with these modders (and others) as they represent the true enthusiasts and in some respects very loyal customers or buyers who have just come back to GM after much initial doubt. At this point dealers as well as the manufacturer should work with their performance customers within reason-ESPECIALLY fanatics such as those that come onto this forum. Play and pay is a 2-way street IMHO- at this point GM is in no position to test the loyalty or resolve of its customers either. Communication, as always is the key here.

razl
06-17-09, 09:34 AM
Also they can get enough info to know where you are located, state, maybe even city..... with the millions of V2 out there they may have a hard time making a list and get some real good lists..

I'd say you're correct that very intrepid investigators could connect who's who online with real world accounts (especially once V2's start posting VIN checks). But I think that's also largely due to the fact that there aren't millions of V2s (or even probably tens of thousands).

The smaller the pool, the more certain they could connect online-you with V2-tuned-toTheBejeezus-you. :devil:

Razorecko
06-17-09, 09:35 AM
GM out of all car manufacturers has to be almost the most warranty friendly i've ever run into.

CIWS
06-17-09, 09:36 AM
GM out of all car manufacturers has to be almost the most warranty friendly i've ever run into.

Until now, when it appears they're going to start clamping down. We'll just have to see how things actually develop.

The Tony Show
06-17-09, 10:33 AM
The instructions to check PCMs for tunes have been floating around for quite some time now, and I have yet to see a rash of angry forum posts about GM voiding powertrain warranties. I agree with Razorecko that GM has the most lenient warranty procedures for their high performance cars- look at Nissan flying engineers in from Japan to scan the PCM in every GT-R that breaks.

Even with GM's new, slightly more strict rules on modding, common sense and building a good relationship with your Dealer goes a long way.

MReiland
06-17-09, 01:03 PM
Even with GM's new, slightly more strict rules on modding, common sense and building a good relationship with your Dealer goes a long way.

:yeah:

I personally (not the company) walk the line on this issue, I really think the first Gen V had some real problems with things like the Diff. I have a buddy who beat the snot out of his V1, over and over, and over and finally the Diff grenaded (err I mean exploded!!). When he took it in for warranty they said the car was abused (and it was) but I still think that the driveline should have handled the abuse better than it did. I have seen Mustangs and Camaro's take that for 20 years and keep going. Now, if you go an put a blower on your V1 then at that point all bets are off on what damage that can cause and I don't think the warranty should help much at that point when you bump 100+ extra horse on the driveline. Just remember the dealer is your front line defense on these issues, they get the first decision on looking at your brokeness to decide if GM gets involved or not. Again these are my own personal opinions.

vperl
06-17-09, 01:44 PM
I'd say you're correct that very intrepid investigators could connect who's who online with real world accounts (especially once V2's start posting VIN checks). But I think that's also largely due to the fact that there aren't millions of V2s (or even probably tens of thousands).

The smaller the pool, the more certain they could connect online-you with V2-tuned-toTheBejeezus-you. :devil:

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Yes, that was my bad boy way of pointing out that 3500 V2's is easy to figure out/
who is who,
me bad sarcastic

ewill3rd
06-18-09, 07:21 AM
I think Tony just said a mouthful.
GM isn't beating us over the head to do it, they are just arming us (good or bad) in case we see something that looks like an indicator of abuse.
I am as lenient as they come, but honestly if it isn't a "factory defect" then it isn't covered by warranty. I think that point has been about beaten to death here.

2K9 CTS-V
06-18-09, 06:01 PM
The good news is, I am sure no one from GM reads these forums, and with so many of these cars in production, I am sure they would never be able to figure out how some people are trying to cheat them...


Bzzzzzt Wrong Answer..... We're everywhere!

However, I have absolutely nothing to do with Warranty claims, so you are all safe.... :shhh: from me......

Sarcasm never conveys well in forums. Re-read it with a sarcastic voice in your head. :D

jlford30
06-18-09, 07:33 PM
Jebuss WTH did I start......

MReiland
06-18-09, 07:51 PM
Yeah, I figured, my response was meant to be funny also....

jlford30
06-18-09, 08:05 PM
I think I'll visit the local caddy service departments and talk with the service manager and guys and tell them what's up, I don't plan on running nascar races or race top fuel funny cars 24/7 but I do intend on having "fun" in the CTS-V and plan to mod to get some thrill from this monster; I'm sure they will understand. Moreover, I'll also ask that when I come in for services with amsoil products if they will use the amsoil products instead of the stuff they use and if doing that will be all right and not raise a flag or stink.

RapidRob
06-18-09, 10:38 PM
^^^ at the following link, about 1/2 way down, I posted what my dealer thought about replacing the, "Torsional Isolator", on the super charger input shaft with an aftermarket part that fixes the idle rattle noises coming from the engine. As you can read there is a TSP by GM on the issue, but they don't feel it needs to be fixed at this time.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/168532-idle-noises.html

But my dealer had no problem replacing all my fluids with AMSOIL products, they just charged for labor.

Rob

vperl
06-19-09, 07:01 PM
It is going to be winter in a few short months, if one was to purchase snow wheels, and tires, do you have to be careful
not to purchase a wheel that is not GM approved?
It has been mentioned that you should understand that a certain type wheel is necessary to be able to use the tire pressure indicator. Could GM give you grief if you use smaller winter tires or non GM approved sizes ...

marktanner
06-21-09, 02:45 PM
I had an interesting experience yesterday. I was looking at an MB E63 with a friend, and the salesman was quoting the stock specs. Then he said with a chip, exhaust, etc, it would make more than 10% more (I forget the exact figures), also offering to do the same on a used E55. I asked "what about the warranty?" He said that they just needed to take the car back to their dealership and it would be "no problem". VERY interesting. Hated the way the car drove, and didn't feel fast, either, though sounded glorious. Terrible ergonomics, too. But dealer sure was brazen about mods.

Razorecko
06-21-09, 10:59 PM
I had an interesting experience yesterday. I was looking at an MB E63 with a friend, and the salesman was quoting the stock specs. Then he said with a chip, exhaust, etc, it would make more than 10% more (I forget the exact figures), also offering to do the same on a used E55. I asked "what about the warranty?" He said that they just needed to take the car back to their dealership and it would be "no problem". VERY interesting. Hated the way the car drove, and didn't feel fast, either, though sounded glorious. Terrible ergonomics, too. But dealer sure was brazen about mods.

Thats because the e63 is na and a dog....the e55 is know to be considerably faster and more violent in speed :)

The Tony Show
06-22-09, 09:46 AM
I had an interesting experience yesterday. I was looking at an MB E63 with a friend, and the salesman was quoting the stock specs. Then he said with a chip, exhaust, etc, it would make more than 10% more (I forget the exact figures), also offering to do the same on a used E55. I asked "what about the warranty?" He said that they just needed to take the car back to their dealership and it would be "no problem". VERY interesting. Hated the way the car drove, and didn't feel fast, either, though sounded glorious. Terrible ergonomics, too. But dealer sure was brazen about mods.

A lot of dealers are willing to roll the dice with the OEM if you purchase and install the mods (and therefore pay the profit) through them. It also could have just been a case of a Salesman just talking out his tail, and the Service Manager would have had something very different to say.