: Let's talk German egineering!



orconn
06-13-09, 01:38 PM
I have always ben impressed with the feel and handling of the BMW 3 series cara, but to be honest I had always been driving them, not riding in the front passenger seat. My son came to pick me up to go to go out to a restaurant the other night and I was, for the first time a passenger in his 2007 BMW 325i. Whoa, talk about a cramped interior! Truthfully, the exterior dimensions of this car no longer make it really a small car, but the interior is really poorly laid out and cramped, not just cramped feeling. Ergometrically the design of the interior was very poor with controls difficult to use without taking one's eyes off the road for unsafe periods of time tomake adjustments to the HVAC. It had been a while since I had ridden in any BMW so I was surprised by this cars really poorly designed interior. The Mercedes CLK that I had suffered from the same poor design. I can't say after this experience that I would be inclined to buy a 3 series. I guess I will have to go drive and be a passenger a 5 series and see how they fare. Of course with the current exterior styling of both both BMW and Mercedes I am not inclined to spend that kind of money on either of their products. Audi design is better, but my past experience with their reliability and maintenance cost leave not open to getting sucked into owning one again!

Blackout
06-13-09, 02:44 PM
Let's talk German egineering!
Lets talk about grammar

gary88
06-13-09, 03:13 PM
Odd, I don't find the controls in my E92 to be really distracting at all. The temperature knob and fan speed controls are easily within reach and can be used without taking one's eyes off the road. It is true that the 3 series has gotten bigger over time though. They're now as about big as the previous gen E39 5-series. The new small Bimmer is the 1-series which is somewhat similar in dimensions to the E30 3-series. I'd say calling the current 3-series cramped is subjective, I'm 6'2" and still have a lot of room all around. Even my dad at 6'7" fits in fine, both of us have more legroom than in the SLS.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-13-09, 03:41 PM
Theres enough room in an 06 325Xi for five adults. I've done it before.

Rodya234
06-13-09, 03:46 PM
My rule about German Cars: It must have four rings on it somewhere. :D
http://www.fourtitude.com/news/uploads/Tradition_News/rings.jpg

gary88
06-13-09, 03:55 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/gheb88/136.jpg

:stirpot:

Rodya234
06-13-09, 03:58 PM
^Hell, put a 4.2 Liter on it and I'd drive it! :lildevil:

Jesda
06-13-09, 04:05 PM
They are indeed cramped inside, but they're European sized entry-luxury-sporty cars, a different class from the CTS with less weight and sharper handling.

orconn
06-13-09, 05:04 PM
[QUOTE=gary88;1908694]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/gheb88/136.jpg

Certainly mirrors my experience with Audi. Well styled in and out ........ but basically a POS as an automobile to own and maintain.

Night Wolf
06-13-09, 10:59 PM
wanna talk ergonomics for an actual drivers car.... drive an E30 :) The cockpit was designed around the driver, right down to the gauges being angles within the cluster so you have a stright-on view to all of them.

I miss mine, alot... it's motivation to get it finished sooner.

blue07cts
06-14-09, 12:23 AM
my mom has a 2006 A4 with 74k on it now witch is about 10k more then when we got it. and it has been flawless, i'm still suprised by how solid that car is, so maybe AUDI has stepped it up?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-14-09, 12:01 PM
The Germans like the "two hands on the wheel at all time" driving style. I miss the lazier American "one hand on the wheel, the other on the armrest" driving style. I'm sure there's probably a very good reason that the Germans do it the way they do (as everything they do is thought out to the T, atleast on the older cars), but I find driving in the classical american sense is more comfortable over long trips.

Night Wolf
06-14-09, 05:29 PM
I prefer the "one hand on the wheel, one hand on the shifter" driving style myself.... The Germans got that right in the E30 ;)

http://www.e30ic.com/1988_325i_Convertible_Sales_Brochure.pdf

^ Very cool, basically the same for my early '90. Skip to page 11 where they talk about the cockpit design/diagram etc... My hand can rest on the shifter when in 5th, and the climate controls are within fingertip reach, move my hand up a bit, and now I can reach the radio. You can cycle thru the OBC displays by pushing the directional in, so you don't even have to move your hand for that. Among many other things, the interior design/layout was one of the big factors that not only got me to first like the E30, but buy one of my own, it's still something I really like.

The new ones sure are fancy and jam packed with luxury features.... but it's the oldies that stole my heart. The E30 has all the good features that make up a practical daily driver, and even some extras, but it stays true to what it is. If you sit in an E30 with the mindset that you are getting in a high end, all out luxury car made to wow the world, you'll be totally disapointed. Thats not that the E30 is all about. Just about every material on the inside is either plastic or vinyl, but it's quality stuff, I like it that way.

dkozloski
06-14-09, 06:33 PM
German engineering=Why use a simple mechanism when a complicated one will do the job? Rube Golberg was German.

Vesicant
06-14-09, 07:10 PM
German engineering=Why use a simple mechanism when a complicated one will do the job? Rube Golberg was German.

That almost sums it up.


My Audi A4 has been great. Fantastic daily driver and she'll do 130 all day long.


I definitely dont trust Mercedes-Benz vehicles anymore though. I see what parts get sent in under warranty such as engines, transmissions, valve bodies and fuel pumps and I'd shy away. Even their high end models arent safe - since they use roughly the same parts.

Night Wolf
06-14-09, 07:58 PM
German engineering=Why use a simple mechanism when a complicated one will do the job? Rube Golberg was German.

I have no idea what you're talking about...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-15-09030.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-15-09016.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-15-09017.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-15-09018.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-15-09019.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-15-09021.jpg

By far the most complex instrument cluster I've yet to see (on a car). The needles are actually metal, which was cool.

You don't even want to know what is involved in the mess of gears, gas struts, cables, pullies, levers, rods, cams, rockers, and more - just to control the various seat adjustments. Some of them still don't work, Atleast I got the passenger seat able to slide forward/back and then fold forward to let people in the back. I think I got it to recline too....

gdwriter
06-15-09, 07:34 PM
German engineering=Why use a simple mechanism when a complicated one will do the job? Rube Golberg was German.


I have no idea what you're talking about....Look at the cup holder on any German car for a good example. I remember checking out either a BMW or a Mercedes at a new car show, and the cup holder consisted of a chrome-plated pneumatic column in the console that would rise up, and then gears at the base of the column would make the cup holder apparatus swing out. I'll admit, it was very nicely done, but I was amused by how complex it was.

BTW, nice pictures of your instrument cluster, Rick. There's a certain beauty in seeing the mechanisms behind everyday items.

The Tony Show
06-15-09, 07:46 PM
Lets talk about grammar

Let's talk about knowing the difference between spelling and grammar. :D

Night Wolf
06-15-09, 08:11 PM
Look at the cup holder on any German car for a good example. I remember checking out either a BMW or a Mercedes at a new car show, and the cup holder consisted of a chrome-plated pneumatic column in the console that would rise up, and then gears at the base of the column would make the cup holder apparatus swing out. I'll admit, it was very nicely done, but I was amused by how complex it was.

BTW, nice pictures of your instrument cluster, Rick. There's a certain beauty in seeing the mechanisms behind everyday items.

My German-engineered car dosen't have a cup holder! :)

My quote before the pictures was a joke.... as that cluster is overly complex for what it needs to be... talk about percision tho!

I could probably bore everyone if I started talking about (with pictures!) so many little details on that car, even some of the slightest things, there was just thought put into it with quality as the goal.

As for the cluster, that was durring the rebuild/makeover. It really updated the look from blah 80's to woha today! The gauges/instrument cluster and interior/back lighting at night are some things that I'm really picky about with cars.

Before:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-15-09003.jpg

After, blurry :(:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-23-09037.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/gauge%20cluster/1-23-09016.jpg

What's impressive is that all that night lighting is provided soley by those 2 clear bulbs w/ BMW's redish-orange caps. No part of the cluster has back-lights behind the gauges/needles. Also, as the needles get closer to pointing straight up, the light reflected from them slowly tapers down starting at the tip, but once the needle pass straight up, and start going horizontal again, the light fills up the rest of the needle. This was taken before I updated the cluster, but even with the needles painted, it still has the same effect - which was something I was concerned about and wanted to retain, some of the E30 folks didn't even pick up on it. The effect is a little exaggerated in this picture as it is a tad on the dark side.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/Florida/1-6-08045.jpg

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-15-09, 08:15 PM
My cupholders are funky, oddly placed (clearly an afterthought) and too small for a big gulp. Did they even have big gulps in the 1990's?

Night Wolf
06-15-09, 08:45 PM
LOL! In comparison my Jeep's cup holders have to be some of the most simple, but logical designs, able to hold all sorts of stuff, including the 44oz big gulps!

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/Jeep/1-24-09015.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/Trips/Key%20West%202-09/2-21-09146-1.jpg

The most thought that went into them is that the rubber liner part can come out for easy cleaning! :)

I suppose there is some relevance to this thread, as Chrysler was partnered with Mercedes durring the years my TJ was made.... heck, my 6spd transmission was sourced from Benz :).

gary88
06-15-09, 11:08 PM
Cupholders really are an American thing. Ze Germans reluctantly placed cupholders that extend out from the dash. They fit coffee and bottles of water nicely, which is all I ever have in my car anyways.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/gheb88/IMG_2618.jpg

There's one more red bull-sized one in the center console that can channel air from the AC to keep it cool.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/gheb88/IMG_2578.jpg

gdwriter
06-15-09, 11:16 PM
My German-engineered car dosen't have a cup holder!


Cupholders really are an American thing. Ze Germans reluctantly placed cupholders that extend out from the dash. They fit coffee and bottles of water nicely, which is all I ever have in my car anyways.I could be wrong, but I believe the Germans resisted putting cup holders in their cars until too many American customers complained.

"Ze car is for ze driving. It ez not ze restaurant. You vil spill ze coffee all over ze hand-tooled leather from ze hides of baby calfs. Nein!"

The Tony Show
06-15-09, 11:24 PM
*insert witty and smug Jeremy Clarkson comment about Americans here*

gary88
06-15-09, 11:24 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe the Germans resisted putting cup holders in their cars until too many American customers complained.

"Ze car is for ze driving. It ez not ze restaurant. You vil spill ze coffee all over ze hand-tooled leather from ze hides of baby calfs. Nein!"

:lol: pretty much!

Night Wolf
06-16-09, 12:15 AM
Wasn't it the Japaneese that really brought cup holders to the market?

My '89 FWB didn't have one, the '89 Olds 88 had a single, and the '93 Coupe DeVille had a double in the flip out center armrest, but those were more an an after thought (that worked well) then anything.

My Isuzu didn't have one tho. I don't remember many 80's American cars having them.

Thinking back to my BM, it does sorta have a "secured, sealed drink holder".... I'll place a bottle or even a fountain cup (with ice, keeps it weighted down) in the little cubby under the HVAC and to the left of the XM.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW2/5-19-09/5-19-09064.jpg

There was a company that made an aftermarket cup holder, but they no longer do. Last I heard the E30 folks were trying to get someone to make a reproduction run. It even relocates the 12v socket.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n381/Wishno87/cupholder1.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n381/Wishno87/_DSC0020Medium.jpg

Same interior colors as mine!

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=17492&stc=1&d=1235632408

Jesda
06-16-09, 12:56 AM
The cupholder in the Crossfire is a complete joke. It pops up out of the center console and has two prongs that poke the cup to hold it in place. At 35,000 miles, one prong is already busted. If you put a styrofoam cup in there it will burst open.

THANKS A LOT, GERMANY!

http://www.ultimatecupholders.com/images/rubberqueen-cup-holder.jpg
And thank you Wal-Mart. :)

orconn
06-16-09, 01:04 AM
I have to agree with the Germans in feeling that cars are not restaurants. Drinks have been outlawed in my personal cars since my bride of a few months upset a Coke cup spilling its' contents down the gear shift housing of my new Jag XJ6! If you are that thirsty or hungry we'll stop at a fast food place ..... no eating in the car!

Rodya234
06-16-09, 01:29 AM
The cupholder in my Deville isn't too impressive either. http://i3.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/39/ce/bcb0_1.JPG



I love how this thread went from German engineering to cupholder innovation.

Aron9000
06-16-09, 02:15 AM
The cupholder in my Brougham is a single flip out thing from the armrest. Works pretty good for 1 20oz bottle or something small like that.

On my 99 Camaro, the there were two cupholders. One swung out from the dash and worked great. The other was in the console and the drink would always hit your elbow. On manual trans cars, you couldn't shift with a drink in the cupholder.

gdwriter
06-16-09, 01:58 PM
The cupholder in the Crossfire is a complete joke. It pops up out of the center console and has two prongs that poke the cup to hold it in place. At 35,000 miles, one prong is already busted. If you put a styrofoam cup in there it will burst open.

THANKS A LOT, GERMANY!

http://www.ultimatecupholders.com/images/rubberqueen-cup-holder.jpg
And thank you Wal-Mart. :)Now there's class with a capital K.


I have to agree with the Germans in feeling that cars are not restaurants. Drinks have been outlawed in my personal cars since my bride of a few months upset a Coke cup spilling its' contents down the gear shift housing of my new Jag XJ6! If you are that thirsty or hungry we'll stop at a fast food place ..... no eating in the car!And you didn't divorce her? :histeric: If a marriage can survive messing up a fancy new car, it can survive anything!

I take a lot of road trips or get thirsty while out running errands, and I don't want to stop just for a drink, so I don't have a problem with having a drink in the car. Knock on wood, I've never had a major spill (I rarely do something like a Big Gulp; it's usually a 12-oz. can or 16-oz. bottle with a cap), which is surprising since I tend to be a klutz. I spill coffee on myself all the time -- usually when wearing a white shirt -- but I don't get any on the car.


The cupholder in my Deville isn't too impressive either.
http://i3.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/39/ce/bcb0_1.JPGThe cupholder set up was just sitting in the console when I bought my '91 DeVille nearly four years ago. I reinstalled it and never had a problem; it doesn't feel that flimsy to me, and I like how it tucks back into the armrest when it's not needed. That said, the cupholders that pop out on the Seville's console are nicer.


I love how this thread went from German engineering to cupholder innovation.Yeah, me too. But it's a good -- and funny -- example of the differences between German and American tastes.

Jesda
06-16-09, 04:08 PM
Now there's class with a capital K.


It goes on the trunk/cabin divider between/behind the seats. I cant believe I didnt think of it myself; someone on the forum put it there.

I really shouldn't have any non-bottled drinks in a sports car. A few hard bumps or some hard braking/acceleration will cause lids to pop open and spill. But its nice to know that its there.

Cream_Devil_91
06-16-09, 05:14 PM
Aww no love for the V-dubs in here? I have a '92 Jetta TDI and an '06 Jetta TDI. If you've never driven a diesel car you are missing out on some good, fun driving! Talk about some MPG too, the 92 I averaged 50-55, the 06 prob 35-40. 5-600 miles a tank is a breeze. And with diesel getting cheaper than gasoline again, they really drive a hard bargain. Can't beat them diesels for efficiency and longevity!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-16-09, 09:05 PM
The cupholders in the Astro suck. They're so wide that I need a sleeve to hold anything in. But they're good at holding my iPod. But, they're easy to reach, and there are enough of them (two in the rear, one reachable from driver's seat)

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j313/Chadillac8705/Stuff%20from%20work/IMG_0679.jpg

AMGoff
06-17-09, 07:29 PM
There are very few bits of German engineering that I'd actually give two hoots about... This is one - her name is Heidi:

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2008/10/08-15/Heidi_Klum.jpg

gdwriter
06-17-09, 08:11 PM
For some reason, when I think of German women, I tend to like the dominatrix type like Helga from VW's Unpimp Your Ride campaign:

YouTube - Volkswagen: Un-pimp Your Ride I

YouTube - Volkswagen: Un-pimp Your Ride II

YouTube - Volkswagen: Un-pimp Your Ride III

orconn
06-17-09, 08:29 PM
^^^ I am afraid I am more impressed with AMGoff's example of German engineering ........ but then I really prefer Jaguars when it comes to cars!

gdwriter
06-17-09, 08:47 PM
^^^ I am afraid I am more impressed with AMGoff's example of German engineering ........ but then I really prefer Jaguars when it comes to cars!True, Heidi is more attractive than Helga. I don't know where the stereotype of the German dominatrix comes from, but it sure does amuse me. :histeric:

gary88
06-17-09, 09:00 PM
Can't forget about my other favorite German woman.

YouTube - Motorsports BMW Ring-Taxi with Sabine Schmitz

trukk
06-17-09, 11:16 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe the Germans resisted putting cup holders in their cars until too many American customers complained.

"Ze car is for ze driving. It ez not ze restaurant. You vil spill ze coffee all over ze hand-tooled leather from ze hides of baby calfs. Nein!"


This always bugged me. I think it goes to show that americans can do two things at once, and why we are some damned industrious as compared to the socialist europeans. I eat breakfast (powerbar and diet coke) in my car everymorning on the way to work. I don't have time to waste 15 minutes every morning just sitting and eating, while not doing anything else.

The cup holder, and it's users, yet another reason why America kicks so much ass.

-Chris

gdwriter
06-17-09, 11:23 PM
I eat breakfast (powerbar and diet coke) in my car everymorning on the way to work. I don't have time to waste 15 minutes every morning just sitting and eating, while not doing anything else.I check out what's new here as well as some of the current events/political blogs I like while I eat my cereal. Not a bad way to start the day.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-17-09, 11:27 PM
I've facebooked while driving.

gdwriter
06-17-09, 11:33 PM
I've facebooked while driving.That better be in the Bangbus and not the Benz, buster. :helpless:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-17-09, 11:42 PM
Yea, usually when on the highway.