IT WORKED!!!

Pulled out my single disc, non-bose, plugged up the navigation unit, and started the car...THEFTLOCK ACTIVATED (hehe, I knew that was going to happen). Drove down to my norman store, threw the keys to my shop tech, he plugged the Tech2 into it, pushed a couple buttons, and...

I now have NAV!

Everything works/doesn't work as expected. There is no Navigation talk and no Voice Command, and without the Vehicle speed sensor plugged in (will get to that tonight), many of the features don't work as it says "That feature is not available while the vehicle is in motion" - guess the Nav thinks that the vehicle is in motion when there is NO signal. You have to turn the ignition off to access those features (only a few). Radio works great, though it gives you an option for DSP and AVC, which without the BOSE amp do nothing. Nav works great too. If you weren't looking for the things that don't work, you'd never now my car never came from the factory without nav :D :D

Sweet! When is the LS6 plug-in mod coming? :D

his miscrent... just wondering about a couple of things... i found a navigation unit for sale and i wanted to switch out my single disc cd player with the nav unit... i was wondering if watching dvd's is available wit this and how hard was the install.. would u let caddy do it or did a reg aftermarkt shop do it... i really wanna get it put in adn all.. but i was told that it wasnt possible to just switch it out... wut features did u lose... how hard was it to do... was it just unplug the reg radio and plug in the nav headunit or was there other wiring needed? any info is appreciated...

Where are you getting a lead for the vehicle speed sensor? Is it merely a voltage lead or is it a Data Bus II wire? Can the wire just be spliced?

his miscrent... just wondering about a couple of things... i found a navigation unit for sale and i wanted to switch out my single disc cd player with the nav unit... i was wondering if watching dvd's is available wit this and how hard was the install.. would u let caddy do it or did a reg aftermarkt shop do it... i really wanna get it put in adn all.. but i was told that it wasnt possible to just switch it out... wut features did u lose... how hard was it to do... was it just unplug the reg radio and plug in the nav headunit or was there other wiring needed? any info is appreciated...

Yes, I can play movies, and it looks like the facotry radios have the Radio output connector 4 (see my site) which looks like it has a video green, red, and blue output for connecting another screen(?) [or those could be inputs?]. I can't get my GPS to work as of yet, so the "vehicle moving" thing is still a hitch I am working through.

As for install, as of yet with "ALMOST" all functionality, it was a simple plug-in.

Where are you getting a lead for the vehicle speed sensor? Is it merely a voltage lead or is it a Data Bus II wire? Can the wire just be spliced?

Form the instrument panel connector. I tapped the brown wire coming out of the instrument cluster connector.

I'm having an issue with GPS right now. Can't get the GPS to work on the Nav, though a call to Onstar confirmed that they get a GPS signal from me. GPS screen says "Out of Range" under calculation.

Form the instrument panel connector. I tapped the brown wire coming out of the instrument cluster connector.

I'm having an issue with GPS right now. Can't get the GPS to work on the Nav, though a call to Onstar confirmed that they get a GPS signal from me. GPS screen says "Out of Range" under calculation.

So the Nav system isn't receiving GPS coordinates from the VCIM (OnStar Module)? I'm just throwing a wild suggestion out there, but could the problem be that the current OnStar module isn't programmed or configured to have a navigation system connected to it? If this is indeed the problem, that would explain why OnStar shows the GPS hardware is working but the Navigation system doesn't. I'm sure the service department is able to reprogram the OnStar module to allow the navigation system to connect to it.

Does the Nav system show your location or does it not get a GPS fix at all?

So the Nav system isn't receiving GPS coordinates from the VCIM (OnStar Module)? I'm just throwing a wild suggestion out there, but could the problem be that the current OnStar module isn't programmed or configured to have a navigation system connected to it? If this is indeed the problem, that would explain why OnStar shows the GPS hardware is working but the Navigation system doesn't. I'm sure the service department is able to reprogram the OnStar module to allow the navigation system to connect to it.

I bet that's it. How long does it take to get GPS info reset? Perhaps I have't had it on long enough after changing the vehicle location.

Miscreant, im pretty sure (almnost 100%) that onstar uses a different gps piece than the nav system, as in you have two gps transmitters in a cts with stock navigation.....you may want to check that out

Miscreant, im pretty sure (almnost 100%) that onstar uses a different gps piece than the nav system, as in you have two gps transmitters in a cts with stock navigation.....you may want to check that out

Well, according to my schematics, it listed a "Navigation Antenna" when "W/O UE1" (which is onstar).

I'd like to find someone who's pulled their radio out and let me know if there is only one coax connection made on the radio (from the Antenna Control unit). The Nav radio does have a second smaller COAX, but I believe that is for export when there is no Onstar.

hmmmmm, i dunno...you may be right, however i was under the impression that there was two different systems

I'm not sure about the CTS line, but in the ETX & Escalade units with NAV systems, the GPS antenna is not tied into or connected with OnStar. The actually antenna module is located in the dash, near the windshield and above the left side of the glove box. At least through 04 models.

Here's the weird thing, and maybe I'm just being stupid, but...

When I drive, the car indicator on the navigation moves, turns, backs up, etc on the nav map. The car indicator just moves too fast (goes about 2 miles for every mile I actually travel, which means when I adjust the vehicle position for say my house, and start down the road, the map will say I passed a road which I haven't even come up yet. By the time I reach the middle of town, I'm on the other side of the town according to the map. How could it do this without having a GPS signal?

so what ur saying is that the radio was a simple plug and play device. there wasn o extra wiring needed.. i found a nav unit but i want ot make sure that everything will work once i unplug the old and plug in the new... i know u said something bout the theft system kicking in wut did u have to do to fix it.. will the radio not work if this happns or wut..

so what ur saying is that the radio was a simple plug and play device. there wasn o extra wiring needed.. i found a nav unit but i want ot make sure that everything will work once i unplug the old and plug in the new... i know u said something bout the theft system kicking in wut did u have to do to fix it.. will the radio not work if this happns or wut..

The theftlock system will engage. It's so people can't steal your radio and plug it into another radio. A quick trip to your local cadillac dealer, a quick plug in of their Tech2 unit, and they can clear the theftlock and program the radio for your vehicle. Other than that, I have all functions (well, DSP and AVC do not work, but I never had them to begin with - if I had bose, they'd work) except for the specific navigation functions I am working through...

Here's the weird thing, and maybe I'm just being stupid, but...

When I drive, the car indicator on the navigation moves, turns, backs up, etc on the nav map. The car indicator just moves too fast (goes about 2 miles for every mile I actually travel, which means when I adjust the vehicle position for say my house, and start down the road, the map will say I passed a road which I haven't even come up yet. By the time I reach the middle of town, I'm on the other side of the town according to the map. How could it do this without having a GPS signal?

I think I answered my own question here by research. From everything I can tell, the Navigation system in the CTS is a Blaup unkt system. Most Blaup unkt use vehicle speed sensors and an internal gyroscope to provide dead reckoning incase of GPS failure. I bet that is what I am experiencing and why it's not accurate.

i hate to repeat myself and make u repeat urself but i need a def. answer on this ... you are telling me that all u had to do in unscrew the old headunit and unplug the plugs and then plug in the new one and it is a perfect fit and nothing had to be done other than take a trip to the dealer to have them plug in the thing so the radio will work.. you didnt have to run any extra wiring or anything only unplug original radio and plug in the new one? cuz i dont wanna spend 900 on a used nav system if it wont work when i plug in the new one

one other thing i was wondering was wit the nav unit do u now have ge 6 disc cd changer

one other thing i was wondering was wit the nav unit do u now have ge 6 disc cd changer
Yes, 6 disc changer is part of it.

i hate to repeat myself and make u repeat urself but i need a def. answer on this ... you are telling me that all u had to do in unscrew the old headunit and unplug the plugs and then plug in the new one and it is a perfect fit and nothing had to be done other than take a trip to the dealer to have them plug in the thing so the radio will work.. you didnt have to run any extra wiring or anything only unplug original radio and plug in the new one? cuz i dont wanna spend 900 on a used nav system if it wont work when i plug in the new one
Yes, with the exception of the Navigation problems I am having. The Radio, XM, and 6 disc changer work great. TO get the navigation 100%, there are a couple things that need to be done, and when I get them all worked out, I will post.

but like i said all that is needed to be done is to unplug the old radio and plug in the nav headunit and everything will work... so how long would you say it takes to make the switch...

but like i said all that is needed to be done is to unplug the old radio and plug in the nav headunit and everything will work...

Again, yes, if you just unplug your unit, and plug in the nav, everything but the navigation stuff I am sorting out will work.

so how long would you say it takes to make the switch...

About 10 minutes, and about 30 seconds with the Tech2 to purge the theftlock.

do u know if caddy dealer will ask any questions when i ask them to reset it?

besides the question above i had two more... first si would u reccomend doign the switch urself or having a professional do it for u and also you said that most features dont work while driving did u get the dvd player to work while driving... and does it light up and tell u the radio stations and such..

sorry to keep bothering u wit questions and all but besides all the above questions i was wondering if this whole setup will work wit the 2003 system setup.. i didnt know if they changed anything from 03 to 04 because i found an 03 nav unit and i wanna swap mine out and put it in... just wondering if u knew off hand if it iwll work just as well as urs did.

do u know if caddy dealer will ask any questions when i ask them to reset it?

Just take your purchase receipt with you.

besides the question above i had two more... first si would u reccomend doign the switch urself or having a professional do it for u and also you said that most features dont work while driving did u get the dvd player to work while driving... and does it light up and tell u the radio stations and such..

No, I haven't been able to get the DVD to play on the nav screen while driving. I think it has to do with not having GPS because it can't tell my car is not moving.

sorry to keep bothering u wit questions and all but besides all the above questions i was wondering if this whole setup will work wit the 2003 system setup.. i didnt know if they changed anything from 03 to 04 because i found an 03 nav unit and i wanna swap mine out and put it in... just wondering if u knew off hand if it iwll work just as well as urs did.

Be VERY careful with the 03 units. Most out there are CD, not DVD nav, and are gray instead of black. I'd just stick with the 2004 model just to be sure. You want part number 25766997 to be sure.

wut do u mean grey not black and also i have a dvd player in the car already wit 4 tv's.. cant i just put input into the screen and play using the dvd player i already have

wut do u mean grey not black

Halfway through the model year in 2003 (which started in Jan 02), the CTS had a Dark Pewter Interior instead of ebony, and the dash on may models is a dark gray, not a black. The Navigation during this time was also a CD nav (like 9 discs). They then changed to an ebony interior over the dark pewter and changed the dash permanently to black. At this time they also changed to DVD navigation. I have found many 03 navs out there, but they tend to be the gray units and CD navigation. Watch for this.

and also i have a dvd player in the car already wit 4 tv's.. cant i just put input into the screen and play using the dvd player i already have
I don't know if the connector 4 on the nav radio is input or output. If it is input, I think you'll find that the input will switch off just as the screen does now when you start to drive. The screen also only functions as either nav or DVD not both.

Halfway through the model year in 2003 (which started in Jan 02), the CTS had a Dark Pewter Interior instead of ebony, and the dash on may models is a dark gray, not a black. The Navigation during this time was also a CD nav (like 9 discs). They then changed to an ebony interior over the dark pewter and changed the dash permanently to black. At this time they also changed to DVD navigation. I have found many 03 navs out there, but they tend to be the gray units and CD navigation. Watch for this.


I don't know if the connector 4 on the nav radio is input or output. If it is input, I think you'll find that the input will switch off just as the screen does now when you start to drive. The screen also only functions as either nav or DVD not both.
my 03 cts is black, but the inside is almost a charcoal color. thats the dark gray you are referring to?

do you know if the wiring is different fomr the dvd nav and the cd nav opr is it all the same kind of wiring

my 03 cts is black, but the inside is almost a charcoal color. thats the dark gray you are referring to?

Yes

do you know if the wiring is different fomr the dvd nav and the cd nav opr is it all the same kind of wiring

The head unit side wiring is the same except for a few extra wires. Look at Ron's site www.ctsowners.com to find wiring schematics and harness diagrams. Very useful stuff.

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I Have A 2004 Cts Luxury Package Cts With Bose 6 Disc System. I Located A Nav Dvd 6 Disc That Came Out Of A 2004 Cts. I Plan On Buying It. Does Is Make A Difference If I Already Have A Bose System? And Most Importantly Do I Have To Buy An Antenna Or A Speed Sensor For The Gps Or Should They Already Be Located In The Vehicle?

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I Have A 2004 Cts Luxury Package Cts With Bose 6 Disc System. I Located A Nav Dvd 6 Disc That Came Out Of A 2004 Cts. I Plan On Buying It. Does Is Make A Difference If I Already Have A Bose System? And Most Importantly Do I Have To Buy An Antenna Or A Speed Sensor For The Gps Or Should They Already Be Located In The Vehicle?

I believe you have to purchase the GPS antenna (mine will be here tomorrow) Part number 25726417. The speed sensor comes off of the instrument cluster that you need to tap into.

With the Bose, you will have DSP and AVC, so that's a plus. You still have to wire in a radio to bose amp nav talk, and an onstar to radio for voice command...

This isn't *easy*, but it's alot easier than they would make you beleive.

Just wondering if you thought it would be worth it to put the early nav system in my car that doesnt play dvd... i mean looks wise i think it would be nice to have in it but to actually spend like 1000 on a nav system that really doesnt do anything... do u think it is worth the cash

Just wondering if you thought it would be worth it to put the early nav system in my car that doesnt play dvd... i mean looks wise i think it would be nice to have in it but to actually spend like 1000 on a nav system that really doesnt do anything... do u think it is worth the cash
My question would be why even spend the money at all for nav, if you don't get the DVD nav? What I mean by this is that the DVD nav is so much better than the CD nav, and chances are it's a new model if it's dvd (Like mine, I got mine out of a damaged in transit CTS-V with like 3 miles on it or something) where as the older CD model probably has some use on it.

What color is your interior?

i have an earlier model.... i looked around and i believe i have the dark grey because it is not black... theinterior is the two tone.... put it is def dark grey not black...

Ok, where can i find a navigation system for sale? I've looked everywhere and i can't seem to find it. Besides that, i'd like to talk to someone who has a 2004 fully loaded (with the exception of the Nav System) and had the NAV installed and is working 100%.

Any info will help....
thank you in advance

Ok, where can i find a navigation system for sale? I've looked everywhere and i can't seem to find it. Besides that, i'd like to talk to someone who has a 2004 fully loaded (with the exception of the Nav System) and had the NAV installed and is working 100%.

Any info will help....
thank you in advance

1) The nav systems can be found from time to time on the shop networks on line, for instance www.car-part.com and such. They range from $500 (for 03 CD Nav systems) to $1500 (for overpriced 04 Nav systems).

2) It doesn't matter if your vehicle is hard loaded or a base model, the only determinent on whether it will be difficult or MORE difficult is if you have BOSE or non-BOSE. The BOSE system enables you to wire in the Navigation Feedback (Route Guidance) directly to the NAV unit as it is from the factory, and also allows you to use the Auto Volume control and Digital Signal Processing.

I haven't found anyone with the exception of myself, who has posted HOW their upgrade is working. Someone posted a long time ago, one post, where they claimed they added "nav" (though whether is was factory or aftermarket, I don't know / couldn't tell), but then they disappeared.

Here's what I have determined so far:

1) You need the Nav system

2) You need the GPS antenna. Though you don't need to install it where the factory does. I just got my antenna, and I now have my navigation working great.

3) No matter which system you have, bose or non-bose, you'll need to run a Cellular voice, Cellular low reference, and drain wire from the Onstar box in the right-rear trunk, to the Nav unit. This isn't as easy as it sounds as you have to find the right connector (the onstar box has only two connectors on it right now, and you have to get the third connector and wire it yourself), and you have to have the right terminals for the radio plug as it isn't wired from the factory.

4) No matter what system, you have to run a Vehicle speed signal tap from the Instrument Cluster to the Radio. This is actually easy, you simply remove the cluster, unplug the connector, peal back the wiring tape, expose the brown wire, tap it with another wire, run it to the right behind the cluster to the radio (it's right there) and snap in a new terminal into the second 8 pin connnector in the right place (I got the terminal and wire from a VW radio haness from Best Buy - the CTS radio is a Blaup unkt unit just like Audis, BMWs and VWs). This took me about 10 minutes.

*** at this point you have a fully functional Nav system with the exception of voice command and audio route guidance [and your Radio/audio will mute every once and a while when on route guidance]) ****

5)ORIGINAL POSTING WRONG:
If you have the non-bose, you have to come up with a way to feed the separate NAV audio output to either an external powered speaker, or perhaps feed it back into the regular audio outputs (perhaps left side?). This is still assumed since I don't know if the RADIO mutes the audio signal or the AMP mutes the audio signal. If the radio mutes the main audio signal out, then you SHOULD be able to tap the mav audio outputs into the regular audio outputs, so that the radio will play the nav audio through the lines that have been muted at the headunit. however, if the amp mutes those lines, then you can't tap them as you'd be supplying the audio before the muting, and the amp would still mute the nav audio (which would require you to have a separate amp and speaker for the nav.
[the alternative to 5 is to also install the bose amp (see 7)]

Addendum to #5 above. It seems the amp mutes the audio and switches to nav guidance, not the headunit. The bad thing about this is that the non-bose amp does NOT mute (probably does not recognize the class 2 code for this) so if you were to install a separate speaker for nav, OR, if you were to merge nav into the audio, you'll have both signals going at the same time - ie., your regular audio will not mute so you can hear the nav. What this means is that you really need to upgrade to the bose amp to get this feature. Otherwise, you have visual guidance only, but the positive to it is that your audio never mutes as I previous thought it would...

6) If you have the bose amp, then all you need to do is run a Nav audio +, Nav audio -, and Nav audio Drain to the bose amp. Both the Nav unit and the Bose amp are already Pinned to accept this (the bose amp is the same with non-Nav units as with Nav units from the factory). You obviously need the correct terminals to snap into the connectors at the radio and amp.

7) You could add the bose amp. This is more complex, as you have to repin the 24 pin connector, and get new connectors (other two) for the bose amp and repin accordingly. Then add the noise microphone if desired. You'd still have to run the man-to-bose nav audio lines as above. This is what I am currently doing.

I have tracked down about EVERY connector and terminal needed to do all the above (through Delphi, Amp, Tyco, Power&Signal, etc), and will be posting it as I go, and completing a write-up on it soon, probably in pieces.

Update:

Just got my GPS antenna, installed, drove in a circle and now I have completely functional navigation. So you indeed do also need the GPS antenna.

So far [pats himself on the back :coolgleam ] I have been spot on with my previous assumptions, with the exception of the GPS antenna.

Moving to phase 2 - install of Bose amp system... :bulging:

congrats! :D do you think it will be the same way for 05's? just a future mod that i was hoping i could do. Thanks for being the guinne(sp?) pig! Is that new antenna on the 05's a gps antenna or is it just the onstar replacement?

A pic. Ignore the date, new battery in my camera :rolleyes:
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http://www.ctsowners.com/images/mycar/mycar12.jpg

A pic. Ignore the date, new battery in my camera :rolleyes:
..
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http://www.ctsowners.com/images/mycar/mycar12.jpg
very nice

wow.... and 99.9 AVG MPG.... Caddy is getting better at fuel consumption LOL nice! :D

That's sweet! I'd love to do that in mine. Can anyone give me any ideas on where to look for a used NAV? I tried some local junk yards, but no luck. Is there anywhere online that I can look?

Miscreant,
Have you had a chance to play with the PAC OEM adapters yet to see if they work with the new radio?


Lanman

Miscreant,
Have you had a chance to play with the PAC OEM adapters yet to see if they work with the new radio?


Lanman
Brett just sent them this week I think - I haven't received them yet.

BTT...

This thread is pretty old, and links to Ron(?)'s site no longer work.

Today, I will be installing my newly purchased '05 NAV unit into my non-Bose '04 CTS, and sure would like to read what he went through during installation. Has his site moved? Anyone have a link?

Right now, I am using this site < http://cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/navconvert/index.html > to aid in my install. I am thinking about eventually adding the Bose amp and getting complete functionality of the system.

Since I am new, I am unable to PM 'miscreant' directly. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

BTT...

This thread is pretty old, and links to Ron(?)'s site no longer work.

Today, I will be installing my newly purchased '05 NAV unit into my non-Bose '04 CTS, and sure would like to read what he went through during installation. Has his site moved? Anyone have a link?

Right now, I am using this site < http://cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/navconvert/index.html > to aid in my install. I am thinking about eventually adding the Bose amp and getting complete functionality of the system.

Since I am new, I am unable to PM 'miscreant' directly. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

Old? yep july 2004!

Miscreant bought a GTO and moved on. The FAQ you sited is all you need.

CadillacFAQ seems very slow these days, but just be patient when clicking on links. Miscreants Phase 1 install stopped at the basic Nav install (VSS wire). He sold his CTS before writing the rest, so I spent 6 months researching part numbers for connectors and terminals, and studying the factory service manual schematics. Phase 2 details the wiring needed for audible directions and voice command wire harnessing.

No one, to my knowledge (with possible exception of Miscreant, who was at least planning on doing this) has converted to the Bose from the Base amp. The reason being that the connectors are different. If you can't buy a used CTS Bose amp with Pigtails (very key), then you'd need to research connector part numbers, since two of them have different connectors, and most will need to be repinned with possibly new terminals. The Bose system sub is a single voice coil, and adds a center channel to the dash. Base has no center channel but uses a dual voice coil sub. The Bose speakers are not cheap, and you may be better served upgrading to something like Infinity Reference speakers, since they need to be 2 Ohm.

You may find other stumbling blocks along the way, but that's just the few I identified when doing my Nav harness research. I've already go Bose, so it doesn't matter to me.

You guys are GREAT! It took me about three hours to install the NAV into my non-NAV CTS. The most time involved was finding the female pin receptor for the brown plug. I looked at Best Buy for the Sosche VW harness, but they had none. Neither did any of the eight to ten other local places I looked. I finally found something similar at our local OVERpriced car stereo shops (I paid $26 to get that singel pin!).

I powered her up, and got the TheftLock message. I took it to the local GM place and told the guy what I wanted (I also wanted the XM enabled). He asked if I had $20 bucks. When I said yes, he disappeared with my car for about 10 minutes. When he returned, voila! Nav and XM. He told me that if he had to write up a ticket, it would be $80. I gave him $30.

I could NOT have done this without the ( http://cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/navconvert/index.html ) link. I would like to know who the author is so that I can thank him/her. I followed the steps, and it could NOT have been any easier. THANK YOU!!!

I guess the Bose conversion is out. Not sure what else I need to do, but I'm sure I will find something expensive to do...

Once again, THANKS!!!

Dude, you should have also read the phase 2 instructions. It would have saved you $26 for the terminal and wire for the VSS! ;-)

Congratulations on a trouble free install, and welcome to the Nav upgrade club!

I read phase 2, and understoot it only to apply to Bose equipped CTSs. I'll re-read it to see if there is anything in it that would apply to my non-Bose car.

Considering the fact that my NAV unit was just there sitting on my desk, the $26 was well spent.

When I did the research for the Phase 2 install, there were minimum buys for terminals, and connecters. Also not wanting to do the "$15 Schosche adapter only to pull one terminal" for the VSS wire (in Phase 1), I found the part number for the terminal and ordered 200. I get several requests each week for a VSS wire. This is the proper 30" brown wire with the correct terminal crimped on the end. They're free to forum members as my way of giving back. No harm, no foul . . . you got it running on your own, and that's what it's all about!

You're right in that the audible directions harness only works with the Bose amp. The voice commands works with both, since it talks to the VCIM (OnStar) box. Not very useful without audible directions, though.

Was there any resolution to finding the female connectors for the NAV C1 plug? I found everything else I needed from www.newarkinone.com . I need only those five connectors for the NAV C1 plug to complete Phase II.

odysseus...

I am unable to send PMs because of my newbieness... Have you found a supplier of those terminals for the C1 plug? That's all I need to complete Phase II of the NAV install.

Thanks,

Dave

Nah. I gave up, since my dealer had them in his repair kit for cheap. I think I listed a phone number to call and a part number (in the phase 2 instructions), that my parts guy gave me. I never called to find out, since I already had my parts.

Incidentally, I've still got about 400 Bose terminals, 15 VCIM connectors and associated terminals, and about 200 C2 terminals (for the VSS wire), left over from my purchases. If you haven't purchased your parts yet, let me know. In exchange for becoming a supporting member of this forum ($25 a year, I think), I'll send you the assembled harnessing for free (minus the C1 terminals). It sure beats having to meet the minimum quantity buys.

SUCCESS!!

I found the C1 female terminals at that 1-800-GMTOOLS number. The P/N is 60000511-PKG, and is a package of 25 ct. for $17.56.

Anyone need any, please PM me and I'll be glad to send them out (same as odysseus, free if you become a supporting member).

I'll let you know how phase II works out...

odysseus

I too can't PM you cause I am still a noob, can I get a vss sent? I just paid for the supporting member thing, not too sure if it is going to show up on this post or not...can you email me? info@davispaintball.com thanks!


micah