: What will replace the Lincoln Town Car for livery service?



orconn
06-06-09, 04:14 PM
With its' days apparently numbered, what will take the place of the Lincoln Town Car for corporate and livery service when it is finally phased out. My son's law firm is beginning to think about what to replace their TC's with in the near future.

Sandy
06-06-09, 04:40 PM
With its' days apparently numbered, what will take the place of the Lincoln Town Car for corporate and livery service when it is finally phased out. My son's law firm is beginning to think about what to replace their TC's with in the near future.

There is a Chrysler 300 Limited stretch executive, complete with rear seat foot rests, mini bar, and other goodies. I beleive it's about a 28" stretch.
Visit their site @ http://www.chrysler.com

I think (??) the 2009 Town Cars are now DONE !

77CDV
06-06-09, 04:44 PM
Likely the Escalade. I see lots of them in livery service out here in CA.

Talamant3z
06-06-09, 04:47 PM
they need to update it its been the same since 98

thebigjimsho
06-06-09, 05:24 PM
they need to update it its been the same since 98
It was redesigned in 2003.

thebigjimsho
06-06-09, 05:26 PM
Likely the Escalade. I see lots of them in livery service out here in CA.
No, the Escalade is a poor choice if you just want stretch out room and a comfortable ride. The Escalade has certainly taken over for the 6 passenger limo in the Northeast market, for sure, but it will never take over the sedan market.

Many will use Escalades as their vehicle of choice but our client base has many that specifically demand NO SUVs...

thebigjimsho
06-06-09, 05:30 PM
There is a Chrysler 300 Limited stretch executive, complete with rear seat foot rests, mini bar, and other goodies. I beleive it's about a 28" stretch.
Visit their site @ http://www.chrysler.com

I think (??) the 2009 Town Cars are now DONE !
It's not that much of a stretch, it's about the same amount as the L Town Car is to a standard Town Car. Maybe 8-10" or so.

As for the Chrysler, while it has some neat toys, it still has plastic in abundance, it's narrower than a Town Car and it looks cheap from the outside. What the Town Car has always had(except for the '98-'02 Batmobiles) is a stately, executive look.

And the Town Car production just got extended into early '11...

thebigjimsho
06-06-09, 05:37 PM
What I'm really hoping is that Hyundai brings over the stretched Genesis to the States. They are already in production and being sold in Korea. A well equipped V6 would be about the same as the going rate for a Town Car L. A V8 wouldn't be that much more, about the MSRP of the same Town Car...

Playdrv4me
06-06-09, 07:06 PM
That has got to set the record for number of consecutive posts by one person Jim :D

And yes, I agree about the stretched Genesis. Don't worry, Hyundai is good about uncovering little sales-niches. I honestly don't think the Town Car is ever going to be completely gone though. Every time it's about to get killed they just extend it another two years and make minor updates.

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
06-06-09, 07:58 PM
Around here I have seen a lot of DTS with livery plates on them. They are not spacious or large but they have the ride that people in limos want.

thebigjimsho
06-06-09, 09:11 PM
Around here I have seen a lot of DTS with livery plates on them. They are not spacious or large but they have the ride that people in limos want.
Meh, they're OK. The ride is not far off from the TC. And you can also order them in an L package, but they're much harder to get in an L than a TC. Many dealers have plenty TC Ls in stock. DTS-Ls usually take 1-2 months to get. They do have excellent trunk room, though.

However, I am leery of the Northstar when hitting 200k miles. I don't like the front seats(they're not all day comfy) and having a car that large with the front tires doing all the steering and driving just means massive amount of front driveline and suspension replacements(tie rods, ball joints, hubs, etc...).

And they haven't had a major makeover in awhile, too. Only if Cadillac hadn't killed the RWD STS/DTS homologation replacement...

thebigjimsho
06-06-09, 09:13 PM
Also, there are a lot of DTS used as livery vehicles in Boston and New York. But they are certainly outnumbered by Town Cars. Probably by a count of 3 or 4 to 1...

Playdrv4me
06-06-09, 09:41 PM
Also, there are a lot of DTS used as livery vehicles in Boston and New York. But they are certainly outnumbered by Town Cars. Probably by a count of 3 or 4 to 1...

They are a maintenance nightmare for heavy duty work as evidenced by our old friend Katshot.

Destroyer
06-06-09, 09:50 PM
They are a maintenance nightmare for heavy duty work as evidenced by our old friend Katshot.They are just a nightmare.............period!

ryannel2003
06-06-09, 09:55 PM
FWD + V8 = a pain in the ass.

V-Eight
06-06-09, 09:59 PM
I could see the DTS doing it, but the problem is that its still FWD.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-06-09, 10:01 PM
DTS is next best choice, and lets not forget that Chrysler made FWD limos in the '80s on stretched K car chassis.

77CDV
06-06-09, 10:05 PM
^So did Cadillac. Both died a vey quick and unlamented death.

Playdrv4me
06-06-09, 10:47 PM
^So did Cadillac. Both died a vey quick and unlamented death.

I was about to say... not the GREATEST defense for FWD livery.

Aron9000
06-07-09, 01:45 AM
I wish Cadillac would bring back the Fleetwood 75. Those were freaking awesome.

Nobody has mentioned the Lexus LS460L. Its pretty expensive at $74k though, but the LS has a proven track record of rock solid reliability/durability.

I personally think the Navigator is a much better livery vehicle than an Escalade. We had a 2005 Navigator and now a 2008 Yukon hybrid(short wheelbase) at work. The Lincoln had a lot more space in the 2nd and 3rd row seats, and those third row seats were pretty trick in that they folded flat at the push of a button.

Playdrv4me
06-07-09, 02:56 AM
I wish Cadillac would bring back the Fleetwood 75. Those were freaking awesome.

Nobody has mentioned the Lexus LS460L. Its pretty expensive at $74k though, but the LS has a proven track record of rock solid reliability/durability.

I personally think the Navigator is a much better livery vehicle than an Escalade. We had a 2005 Navigator and now a 2008 Yukon hybrid(short wheelbase) at work. The Lincoln had a lot more space in the 2nd and 3rd row seats, and those third row seats were pretty trick in that they folded flat at the push of a button.

The problem with that is that your fuel costs operating such a vehicle will skyrocket. My 2003 Navigator was getting no better than about 12-13mpg at MOST. Compare that with 18-21 or more with a Town Car and you'd have to make a REALLY good justification for the Navigator. I'm not sure for what reason or exactly what Jim does, but I noticed he also mentioned that some of his customers specifically request no SUVs either.

I agree though, it is otherwise just a big tall town car wagon in every other respect.

Aron9000
06-07-09, 03:10 AM
A local limo company bought a couple of Ford Flex wagons. They get 17/24mpg and the back seat is huge. You can get them with three rows of seats as well. I think they're trying to replace their fleet of 14mpg Escalades, Suburbans, Navigators, etc with these.

I've sat in the back seat, and its pretty comparble to a Town Car IMO. The interior was really nicely done on these, and you can get them with two buckets/console in the back seat. The console doubles as a mini-fridge, not sure if that is a factory option or not.

Playdrv4me
06-07-09, 03:18 AM
A local limo company bought a couple of Ford Flex wagons. They get 17/24mpg and the back seat is huge. You can get them with three rows of seats as well. I think they're trying to replace their fleet of 14mpg Escalades, Suburbans, Navigators, etc with these.

I've sat in the back seat, and its pretty comparble to a Town Car IMO. The interior was really nicely done on these, and you can get them with two buckets/console in the back seat. The console doubles as a mini-fridge, not sure if that is a factory option or not.

Those Flexes are REALLY nice and they do seem like they would make great people transports in the most luxurious trim. The fridge is not standard equipment, it is kind of pricey at about $800.00 for the option.

Unfortunately, the Flex is still based on a FWD architecture even if it can be oredered with AWD.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-07-09, 09:16 AM
The Flex is awesome. It might very well be the most under rated SUV on the market today.

96Fleetwood
06-07-09, 09:20 AM
I have seen an increase in the number of Mercedes S550 livery cars here in Chicagoland (I even see S550 4 matics here with livery plates). I saw the same when I was out in Vegas 3 weeks ago...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-07-09, 09:33 AM
That's right Elias, I forgot about those. I saw an S550 limousine in Minneapolis for the first time a few months ago.

thebigjimsho
06-07-09, 02:45 PM
I have seen an increase in the number of Mercedes S550 livery cars here in Chicagoland (I even see S550 4 matics here with livery plates). I saw the same when I was out in Vegas 3 weeks ago...


That's right Elias, I forgot about those. I saw an S550 limousine in Minneapolis for the first time a few months ago.
Price them out. It's about the bottom line(same for the Lexus LS460L). I can get an S550 but then I need to charge my clients $70 an hour instead of $45(not including gratuity and fees, of course). You think that's no big deal to people with money, but there aren't that many of those people out there. So much of what we do is for corporations and individuals who would have a cow if their bills went up 40%...

thebigjimsho
06-07-09, 02:47 PM
I personally think the Navigator is a much better livery vehicle than an Escalade. We had a 2005 Navigator and now a 2008 Yukon hybrid(short wheelbase) at work. The Lincoln had a lot more space in the 2nd and 3rd row seats, and those third row seats were pretty trick in that they folded flat at the push of a button.
The biggest problem with the Navigator is that they ride much like a truck. GM has the ride down for the Escalade/Yukon/Suburban. Plus, the Navigator is hideous...

thebigjimsho
06-07-09, 02:54 PM
A local limo company bought a couple of Ford Flex wagons. They get 17/24mpg and the back seat is huge. You can get them with three rows of seats as well. I think they're trying to replace their fleet of 14mpg Escalades, Suburbans, Navigators, etc with these.

I've sat in the back seat, and its pretty comparble to a Town Car IMO. The interior was really nicely done on these, and you can get them with two buckets/console in the back seat. The console doubles as a mini-fridge, not sure if that is a factory option or not.
The Flex will have a brother in the Lincoln MKT. However, these will never replace the Town Car...even though my local Lincoln dealer is really hoping so. The room behind the 3rd seat isn't all that great(not Suburban quality) and the interior room will never touch the Town Car L space. Having an L is huge over a standard Town Car. It's a whole new animal in the spaciousness and the actual ride of the car.

And i have to say, for SUV duty, SUVs are the new limos. They don't do so much of the Town Car work. My Town Cars see about 65k miles per year. SUVs see about half that, maybe. Fuel mileage is not so big a deal. It's utility. For that I see the Flex/MKT maybe making a dent. But they won't replace those big SUVs.

The Flex/MKT may fill a nice little niche(as the Prius has actually done well for the green-minded and single riders) but it will never take up a significant share of the market...

thebigjimsho
06-07-09, 02:57 PM
Nobody has mentioned the Lexus LS460L. Its pretty expensive at $74k though, but the LS has a proven track record of rock solid reliability/durability.

My '07 Town Car has been annoying(to say the least) in how much Ford cut down on costs, in comparison to my '04, anyway. I've been so annoyed that I've toyed with the idea of getting a gently used LS460L to replace the '07. Of course, even lightly used, it's an increase of about $15G over the price of a new Town Car L...

orconn
06-07-09, 03:05 PM
I don't believe the Mercedes "S" class would be a good move for corporate or livery fleets right now. Aside from the additional cost of acquisition and maintenance they send the wrong message to potential and current clents who are very conscious of cost right now. I also don't think use of the SUVs, regardless of how they are modified, are in the cards as they are identified with the support (FBI, Secret Service, private security firms) vehicles and with rappers and others of the "Bling" set. So I guess the Town Car will continue in its' role as livery car de jour until at least 2011. It would seem with the sizable market for livery and corporate sedans someone would come up with a more contemporary. The "coupe" roofline and size of most sedans today make them unsuitable for the needs of the users in these categories.

Jesda
06-07-09, 06:30 PM
Low key is the key. Town Car lives on forever.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-07-09, 06:58 PM
I wouldn't mind owning a 93-97 Town Car Signature/Cartier, as long as it was clean, low mile, local and CHEAP! Sure, they lack the rarity, wow factor and thrust of an LT1 Brougham, but they're much cheaper to get into, just as luxurious, a little smaller (lol) and a bit more modern also.

Plus, the seats on the 90-94 Signature Series are so soft and so deep. Like the perfect lazy-boy.

Sandy
06-07-09, 09:34 PM
I bought new 2003 Town Car, in 2003. The Spring Feature Car, called "THE LIMITED". It is one fabulous car. I have yet to have a single problem with it, large or small. It has so many little features that other cars lack, it keeps impressing me. The ride is satin smooth, like every road was repaved, overnight. Maintenance is cheap compared to other cars. Does this comment pertain to the Non stretch Town Cars ?
"And the Town Car production just got extended into early '11..."
????????????

Will they return the power glass moonroof to the option list? (they dropped in after 2008) .??

My Cadillac dealer (local) went out of business, and the closest to me now is 22 miles away. My Lincoln-Mercury-Ford dealer is 3 miles away, and always either gives me a ride home AND picks me up when my car is ready, or gives me a new T.C. to use for the day, filled with gas.

thebigjimsho
06-08-09, 12:44 AM
No Sandy, I believe Town Car construction is now restricted to rental fleets and Lincoln fleet dealers...

Aron9000
06-08-09, 01:00 AM
I think Toyota could really make a dent in this market when they redesign their Avalon. The past and current generation of this car have had an exceptionally roomy back seat(the rear seat reclines in the current gen). Trunk room is generous(enough for two-three people's bags), gas mileage is great(19/28mpg), and it has that understated look that clients want. The plush ride/quiet factor/interior materials is definetly on par with a Town Car.

Toyota could make a livery special with their next car for pretty cheap. Stretch the wheelbase a few inches, and put in some of those nice rear seat controls that the Town Car L has. Sell it for 35-40k.

Our family has a 2000 model with 170k on it, only major repair has been a cat converter.

Sandy
06-08-09, 08:08 AM
that's not the news I wanted to her, Big-Jim! My "local" Caddy dealer naturally will not give me a ride home, and pick me up as that's like 44 mies, nor will they give me a loaner. which is the why of why I switched to Lincolns, but i still have my "show-car" ~ the '93 Sixty Special. It just flipped over to ten thosand miles (in 16 years). It's going to a show next Sunday, at THAT dealer, so add 44 miles.

http://www.smatarese.com/forum/sandy/

Night Wolf
06-08-09, 09:10 AM
I wouldn't mind owning a 93-97 Town Car Signature/Cartier, as long as it was clean, low mile, local and CHEAP! Sure, they lack the rarity, wow factor and thrust of an LT1 Brougham, but they're much cheaper to get into, just as luxurious, a little smaller (lol) and a bit more modern also.

Plus, the seats on the 90-94 Signature Series are so soft and so deep. Like the perfect lazy-boy.

Too bad you didn't have more time at the airport, you could have driven mine. LT1 power not needed and the car is loaded with more toys/features then a comparable FWB.

96Fleetwood
06-08-09, 09:29 AM
Too bad you didn't have more time at the airport, you could have driven mine. LT1 power not needed and the car is loaded with more toys/features then a comparable FWB.

Too bad all those toys/features didn't help the TC hold its value (almost a $2.5K difference in a '96 TC vs. '96 FWB with same mileage).



Back on topic:

Town Car and Grand Marquis sales went up in May 2009:

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/May09sales.pdf



What about this Chinese company that buys TCs and gives them a facelift!!

http://jsp.auto.sohu.com/view/picmore_ex_312_1.html

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/HomeyG745i/3247343418_eca96e7f9c_o.jpg

:bonkers:

Night Wolf
06-08-09, 08:43 PM
Too bad all those toys/features didn't help the TC hold its value (almost a $2.5K difference in a '96 TC vs. '96 FWB with same mileage).


LOL, how did I know something like this would be posted? Again.... after we just went thru the whole debate in the other thread.

Ah well, it's rather simple tho, it has to do with supply and demand. I can drive thru town in a given day and see more '95-'97 Town Cars alone then I can see 90's GM RWD-anything. The Town Cars, and Panthers as a whole are just all over. So, IMO the fact that such a common place car is only marginally less in value then it's far and few between competitor after all these years is rather impressive to me. Same goes with the Impala SS/Marauder comparison I've heard thrown around too.

Besides, resale/perceived value really dosen't mean a whole lot when talking about the quality of a car. Paying inflated prices for inferior vehicles is nothing new - just look at classic/muscle car values :stirpot:.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-08-09, 09:44 PM
I drove a '96 FWB today. Review to come soon.

96Fleetwood
06-08-09, 11:07 PM
LOL, how did I know something like this would be posted? Again.... after we just went thru the whole debate in the other thread.
.

Was it a debate?

Night Wolf
06-08-09, 11:38 PM
Was it a debate?

It can be whatever you'd like to call it, and it just won't end. Everyone has their own opinions. At this point I really doubt either of us will say anything that'll drastically change our viewpoints :bouncy:.

Why isn't this thread titled "What will replace the Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham for livery service?" Oh.....

Playdrv4me
06-09-09, 01:27 AM
Why isn't this thread titled "What will replace the Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham for livery service?" Oh.....

Oh man.

Night Wolf
06-09-09, 05:27 AM
It's a market segment that I am having less and less interest in. I just find it amusing that some will try hard to find anything to knock the competitor, like talking about a marginal difference in engine power on cars not designed for performance, or resale values on 14 yr old cars that both already have pathetic resale value etc...

96Fleetwood
06-09-09, 08:24 AM
"What will replace the Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham for livery service?" Oh.....

Easy! The Escalade... after all, what was built in the Arlington, TX plant where these gorgeous Fleetwoods were made?

Night Wolf
06-09-09, 08:42 AM
Easy! The Escalade... after all, what was built in the Arlington, TX plant where these gorgeous Fleetwoods were made?

Eh, its already posted in this thread from those in the business that a lot of folks don't want an SUV, and they are not a viable sedan replacement.

jey
06-11-09, 12:46 PM
Easy! The Escalade... after all, what was built in the Arlington, TX plant where these gorgeous Fleetwoods were made?

I think it's clear GM gave up on that segment after the Fleetwood. Escalade didn't come until 1999 - were people really supposed to wait 3 years for GM to figure out how to rebadge a Denali? Though livery market aside, I do like the symbolism of the Arlington swithover - for the average consumer the full-size SUV really replaced the big rwd sedan/wagon.

hueterm
06-12-09, 05:59 PM
Just go down to S. Florida and buy up a whole bunch of gently used ones, store them, and when one wears out, dust off another.

orconn
06-12-09, 06:05 PM
Just go down to S. Florida and buy up a whole bunch of gently used ones, store them, and when one wears out, dust off another.

Yeah, that would work!

caddycruiser
06-14-09, 11:43 AM
This is a really great question, and I've been wondering it for a few years now.

There's nothing, really, that can take the place. Nothing is as simple and durable yet also as refined and luxurious, but at a price that's totally realistic in most ways. The current TC is certainly not the most advanced, etc. anything, but for luxury livery service...hmm...it still owns the market.

I'd almost be inclined, as I think someone else said, to find and buy up the newest and very low mileage TC's still around, or new-new ones. They've been decontented in recent years as Sandy said, but it's still the same core brama bull luxury sedan. You can see the same kind of question/debate going on right now with police departments, who have still stuck to the Crown Vic largely but now even after really trying the Impala, Charger, etc. they all have their strong points, but STILL lack the durability and reliability of a Ford Panther. The Impala is a great around town DD but can't stand up in much of any abuse, really, and the RWD LX Dodge is a terrific performer and a solid car that's probably the best of new offerings, but the guts still aren't as simple and tough as a Panther. Sort of a US problem, in that sense...we have to move on and advance at some point, somehow.

But with what. Hmm.

thebigjimsho
06-14-09, 06:13 PM
The Town Car L owns the market. Good luck finding those with low miles. And for most markets, you'll need a black on black. A black on black L is worth a good few thousand more than other colors. A non-L is much cheaper.

But people want the space and the space in a regular Town Car is lacking. The DTS will trounce an older, regular TC...

Sandy
06-14-09, 10:37 PM
Oh no it won't !
My 2003 NON "L" Town Car Limited is longer & wider and has more leg & shoulder room as well as more trunk room. I have driven a DTS (2006) base model and my T.C. is also smoother riding and you feel the bumps/potholes much less.

Night Wolf
06-14-09, 11:01 PM
Town Car's lost cool points in my book when they got rid of the digital dash :(

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-14-09, 11:26 PM
Yes, but now they have a tachometer too.

dkozloski
06-15-09, 12:21 AM
Around here a common sight is custom made vehicles that closely resemble conversion vans but they are black and have very large and heavily tinted windows. Most I've seen were on the highway and were accompanied by an entourage that included a dealer service truck. They appear to have air suspensions and ride very smoothly. If I had to make a guess I would suspect the passengers are uber rich or ultra VIP. I've seen versions of GM, MoPar, and Ford rigs. These things don't look cheap but prefer to fly under the radar. The drivers and footmen wear dark suits.

thebigjimsho
06-15-09, 11:01 PM
Oh no it won't !
My 2003 NON "L" Town Car Limited is longer & wider and has more leg & shoulder room as well as more trunk room. I have driven a DTS (2006) base model and my T.C. is also smoother riding and you feel the bumps/potholes much less.
Not in the back seat area...

AMGoff
06-16-09, 04:14 PM
I wouldn't mind owning a 93-97 Town Car Signature/Cartier, as long as it was clean, low mile, local and CHEAP! Sure, they lack the rarity, wow factor and thrust of an LT1 Brougham, but they're much cheaper to get into, just as luxurious, a little smaller (lol) and a bit more modern also....


Hehehe... Chad said "thrust."

Lord Cadillac
06-16-09, 05:18 PM
www.lincolnmkt.com

orconn
06-16-09, 05:47 PM
^^^^ Re: the Lincoln mkt. If the general American public rejrcts hatchbacks (witness the need for a VW Jetta in the US market when the Golf hatchback is preferred worldwide, and the flop of the M-B 230 Sport Coupe in the U.S.) I don't think senior executive class taste are going to go for a hatchback styled personal limousine. According to our livery car expert many clients reject SUVs for their transport, I doubt they would accept a Lin coln that looks like a crossover.

Submariner409
06-16-09, 05:59 PM
In answer to the original thread title, how about a new Chinese Hummer ? :lildevil:

Blackout
06-16-09, 06:04 PM
Well back when my dad and I worked at A-1 Limousine (the largest all Cadillac livery company in the nation) there was a huge difference in the amount of service needed on the cars when they started to replace the FWB's with Deville's. The FWD's don't stand up to teh amount of use and abuse that they get compared to the FWB's and the other issue is the N* itself because of it's head gasket issues. They currently use DTS's now on both their limo's and livery sedans. But I would have to say that Hyundai should most definately look into livery and fleet sales of the Genesis whether it be just the regular sedan or for limo service. They cost less then the current DTS's and with the warranty they come with that could also be a good selling point with the way the economy is going especially for smaller limo services that don't have the huge budgets to be repairing their fleets. But there really isn't any thing besides the TC that really stands out from the crowd for Limo service. Maybe they will do what they do with the Crown Victoria's and only make and sell TC's for fleet use but not to the general public. They could do a bare bones version so they don't have to pay extra for the bells and whistles that you don't really need for a livery vehicle.

Lord Cadillac
06-16-09, 06:31 PM
^^^^ Re: the Lincoln mkt. If the general American public rejrcts hatchbacks (witness the need for a VW Jetta in the US market when the Golf hatchback is preferred worldwide, and the flop of the M-B 230 Sport Coupe in the U.S.) I don't think senior executive class taste are going to go for a hatchback styled personal limousine. According to our livery car expert many clients reject SUVs for their transport, I doubt they would accept a Lin coln that looks like a crossover.
Times are changing. We'll see.. This is supposed to be the "Lear Jet of automobiles"...

ltdltc
06-17-09, 06:06 AM
But I would have to say that Hyundai should most definately look into livery and fleet sales of the Genesis whether it be just the regular sedan or for limo service. They cost less then the current DTS's and with the warranty they come with that could also be a good selling point with the way the economy is going especially for smaller limo services that don't have the huge budgets to be repairing their fleets.

The Cadillac professional warranty comes with a 3 Year/150,000 mile warranty. Doubt Hyundai is going to match that.

Having owned 4 Town Cars driving them combined for well over 350,000 miles I can attest to their durablility. But they still have their problems. Crappy window regulators, defective valve stem seals and blend doors that aren't too great.

The 1990-1997 body style is the best body style thats ever graced the Panther platform. My favorite year is 1992, but that wasn't a great year as far as mechanicals were concerned. My 1995 was a champ though.

I still cringe when ever I see a 1998+ Town Car, a step backwards in exterior/interior design. 2003+? it looks even worse IMHO. Suppose if your riding in the back seat it isn't so bad.

In my neck of the woods I see more blacked out livery Grand Marquis LS's then I see Town Cars and DTS's seem to be growing in numbers as well.

When Ford finally kills the Panther I'm sure the Taurus/MKS will be the replacement for fleet vehicles.

Aron9000
06-17-09, 06:26 AM
The Holden Caprice would be a badass livery vehicle, if GM would only bring it over here. It would make the perfect Buick Park Ave. Low key, but very premium and luxurious. Cadillac luxury with under the radar styling that some people prefer.

http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Caprice

Blackout
06-17-09, 07:04 AM
The Holden Caprice would be a badass livery vehicle, if GM would only bring it over here. It would make the perfect Buick Park Ave. Low key, but very premium and luxurious. Cadillac luxury with under the radar styling that some people prefer.

http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Caprice
It looks like a Nissan Altima from the front and a Impala from the back

Playdrv4me
06-17-09, 12:17 PM
The 4.6 Valve stem issue was pretty much eradicated in 1995 or '96. Still, those Panther issues noted above pale in comparison to the kind of labor and cost associated with the problems the FWD Cadillacs have in such a rigorous environment. And sure they may have a 3 year 150k warranty, but time out of the fleet is time that car isn't making money.

The FWD Fords probably won't fare a whole-lot better. If I'm a livery operator right now, I am not excited about how my future vehicle choices are about to impact my bottom line, that's for sure.

I smell an emerging market of Panther restoration right around the corner...

thebigjimsho
06-17-09, 01:10 PM
Well back when my dad and I worked at A-1 Limousine (the largest all Cadillac livery company in the nation) there was a huge difference in the amount of service needed on the cars when they started to replace the FWB's with Deville's. The FWD's don't stand up to teh amount of use and abuse that they get compared to the FWB's and the other issue is the N* itself because of it's head gasket issues. They currently use DTS's now on both their limo's and livery sedans. But I would have to say that Hyundai should most definately look into livery and fleet sales of the Genesis whether it be just the regular sedan or for limo service. They cost less then the current DTS's and with the warranty they come with that could also be a good selling point with the way the economy is going especially for smaller limo services that don't have the huge budgets to be repairing their fleets. But there really isn't any thing besides the TC that really stands out from the crowd for Limo service. Maybe they will do what they do with the Crown Victoria's and only make and sell TC's for fleet use but not to the general public. They could do a bare bones version so they don't have to pay extra for the bells and whistles that you don't really need for a livery vehicle.
I agree with everything you've said and to add on your last sentence, TCs are only available as fleet vehicles right now...


Actually, I saw on Lincoln's site that they do indeed sell TCs. However, there are very few on hand due to lackluster sales and my dealer doesn't carry any in stock except for fleet sales...

thebigjimsho
06-17-09, 01:12 PM
The Cadillac professional warranty comes with a 3 Year/150,000 mile warranty. Doubt Hyundai is going to match that.

Having owned 4 Town Cars driving them combined for well over 350,000 miles I can attest to their durablility. But they still have their problems. Crappy window regulators, defective valve stem seals and blend doors that aren't too great.

The 1990-1997 body style is the best body style thats ever graced the Panther platform. My favorite year is 1992, but that wasn't a great year as far as mechanicals were concerned. My 1995 was a champ though.

I still cringe when ever I see a 1998+ Town Car, a step backwards in exterior/interior design. 2003+? it looks even worse IMHO. Suppose if your riding in the back seat it isn't so bad.

In my neck of the woods I see more blacked out livery Grand Marquis LS's then I see Town Cars and DTS's seem to be growing in numbers as well.

When Ford finally kills the Panther I'm sure the Taurus/MKS will be the replacement for fleet vehicles.Who the hell are you? I MUST know you...


As for Hyundai, however, they already warranty their cars to 100,000 miles. If they made a Genesis L, I have no doubts they would extend the warranty for fleet vehicles.

thebigjimsho
06-17-09, 01:15 PM
The 4.6 Valve stem issue was pretty much eradicated in 1995 or '96. Still, those Panther issues noted above pale in comparison to the kind of labor and cost associated with the problems the FWD Cadillacs have in such a rigorous environment. And sure they may have a 3 year 150k warranty, but time out of the fleet is time that car isn't making money.

The FWD Fords probably won't fare a whole-lot better. If I'm a livery operator right now, I am not excited about how my future vehicle choices are about to impact my bottom line, that's for sure.

I smell an emerging market of Panther restoration right around the corner...
No restorations for most markets. I charge a hefty fee and for good reason, I provide the best. I kept my '04 to 218,000 miles. The car was kept in immaculate shape and anything needing fixing was done immediately. All maintenance was done on time. No one could believe my TC had that many miles.

However, you get to the point where people are paying good money. And no matter how well you maintain, you get increased problems with age. Nevermind that psychologically, people want new.

It's how it is.

ltdltc
06-17-09, 01:58 PM
The 4.6 Valve stem issue was pretty much eradicated in 1995 or '96.

1996 was the improved valve stem seals, however the newer ones still do fail as they get older (300K+) you do see blue smoke coming from them. Mostly on CVs though from my non scientific observations.

1996 saw a lot of improvements but then you got a composite manifold that cracks near the alternator and that wasn't rectified until late 2001!

And as I do recall 1998-2002 Town Car seem to suffer from water leaks into the passenger side foot well, not sure if they fixed that in 2003.

Before I even got to drive a DTS I was going to settle with a 2002 Town Car to replace my 1995 that was dying. But a good friend talked me out of it (He was like drive something different for ****s sake!) and when he got a 08 DTS Lux I for a service loaner and let me take it for a spin, I was like holy shit :burn:



Who the hell are you? I MUST know you...

Just a guy thats been driving Town Cars since I was 17.

Maybe its just me but I've seen Genesis's on the road and to be honest they don't look that great and I really don't see what the hype is about. Sure it a great price for what looks to be another "me too!" car. I'll take my DTS over it thats for sure.

Playdrv4me
06-17-09, 02:05 PM
No restorations for most markets. I charge a hefty fee and for good reason, I provide the best. I kept my '04 to 218,000 miles. The car was kept in immaculate shape and anything needing fixing was done immediately. All maintenance was done on time. No one could believe my TC had that many miles.

However, you get to the point where people are paying good money. And no matter how well you maintain, you get increased problems with age. Nevermind that psychologically, people want new.

It's how it is.

I see immaculate LATE MODEL TCs with VERY high miles come across Craigslist or Ebay occasionally for pennies. Cars that look brand new still. I might consider one someday.

thebigjimsho
06-18-09, 12:07 AM
Just a guy thats been driving Town Cars since I was 17.

Maybe its just me but I've seen Genesis's on the road and to be honest they don't look that great and I really don't see what the hype is about. Sure it a great price for what looks to be another "me too!" car. I'll take my DTS over it thats for sure.
I've got well over 800,000 miles on a variety of Town Cars from '92 to '08 and have been driving them since I was 23. And I'm in the Boston area...

CADYSHAK
10-20-09, 12:53 AM
I have driven the latest toyota avalon and it simply is NOT in the same league as the latest town car . the quietness , luxury , and durability simply surpass anything toyota has .

p.s. I own a 09 CTS-V , so I am not biased .

thebigjimsho
10-20-09, 09:45 AM
I test drove an LS460L a couple weeks ago and while I know I'd like driving it, it's not as good as the TC for passengers.

The back seat area I think has more room than the TC but the buckets are deep and too firm. The TC you slide in and settle. And the ride wasn't bad on the Lexus, but it wasn't nearly as isolated as the TC. Maybe my clients wouldn't notice it so much, but I do.

Funny how things in my V wouldn't faze me in the least, the noise, the ride, I like the visceral feel. But the moment I start the TC, my mind needs everything to be soft and quiet. Anything out of place or abnormal and I know about it immediately...

CADYSHAK
10-20-09, 09:00 PM
Good point about the big V , I love the visceral feel as well and can't wait to put my foot down and "launch" away from everybody else on the road .
However what made me think a bit was when my wife and i were being driven to the airport in a lincoln signature L limosine , I immediately noticed how quiet and serene the car was . The familar roads felt completely disconnected . I started to talk the chauffer about the reliabilty of the car and on average these guys get 750,000 km's with only a transmission rebuild .

CADYSHAK

hueterm
10-20-09, 09:19 PM
Love the enhanced rear seat package on the "Ls" -- I would SO get one of these used if they'd fit in my garage. Anyone know when that enhanced package came out?

thebigjimsho
10-21-09, 09:37 PM
Good point about the big V , I love the visceral feel as well and can't wait to put my foot down and "launch" away from everybody else on the road .
However what made me think a bit was when my wife and i were being driven to the airport in a lincoln signature L limosine , I immediately noticed how quiet and serene the car was . The familar roads felt completely disconnected . I started to talk the chauffer about the reliabilty of the car and on average these guys get 750,000 km's with only a transmission rebuild .

CADYSHAK
I know it's been talked about before, and maybe the 4.6 is an underwhelming engine, but the drivetrain is bulletproof. In my parent company's fleet, I've seen 2 tranny failures and 1 engine failure in well over 100 TCs. Millions and millions of miles on these things...

I had 218k miles on my '04 when I traded it in. And it ran as well as a new one. Keep them maintained and they should do 500k easily...

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
10-21-09, 10:21 PM
There is a guy that comes into my school to have his car serviced, he is the original owner. Its an '89 Caprice with 418k miles and its on the original trans and engine. Yeah, it burns about a quart of oil between changes, but so does any Northstar powered car (shut up Destroyer). Bulletproof is not sufficient enough to describe it.

Stingroo
10-21-09, 10:48 PM
That's just plain awesome, and borderline Howitzer-proof.

A friend of mine linked me to this story of a Dodge Ram 2500 with 1.4 million miles on it. It was in a diesel truck mag. That's just craziness.

Aron9000
10-21-09, 11:02 PM
There is a guy that comes into my school to have his car serviced, he is the original owner. Its an '89 Caprice with 418k miles and its on the original trans and engine. Yeah, it burns about a quart of oil between changes, but so does any Northstar powered car (shut up Destroyer). Bulletproof is not sufficient enough to describe it.

AWESOME!!!! Is it a 305 or 350? TBI or carbed? How does the body look? I know if its a northern car they'll rust away into nothing long before they quit running.

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
10-21-09, 11:03 PM
About a year ago there was the story of a guy in Wisconsin that had a '94? Chevy truck that crossed the 1 million mile mark. He used it to make long distance deliveries for his seafood business. He had 14 pages of oil change records and it had 4 tranny rebuilds, but the engine was all original.

Aron: Not sure what engine, I am not in the service class yet so I don't work on customer cars that often. He is an older gentleman, a traveling salesman so the car spends the winters down south somewhere. It looks good, but you can tell its older and has been driven a lot.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-21-09, 11:32 PM
AWESOME!!!! Is it a 305 or 350? TBI or carbed? How does the body look? I know if its a northern car they'll rust away into nothing long before they quit running.

In '89, the only engine offered in the civilian Caprice was the TBI 305. The TBI 4.3 was discontinued in '89, so by the end of the box Caprice's run, it was only V-8 powered.

When I worked at the Chevy dealer, we had a customer with an '89 Caprice Classic Station Wagon, and with his 307 4bbl, he had amassed 271k miles on it and still drove it daily. The car was beat to snot, but it was his baby and he loved it.

The Astro hit 180k miles today. That 4.3 sure can take a licking and keep on ticking. :) I've put 43k miles on it in 9 months.

thebigjimsho
10-21-09, 11:50 PM
There is a guy that comes into my school to have his car serviced, he is the original owner. Its an '89 Caprice with 418k miles and its on the original trans and engine. Yeah, it burns about a quart of oil between changes, but so does any Northstar powered car (shut up Destroyer). Bulletproof is not sufficient enough to describe it.
Here is a 400k mile SHO...

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=103289

I can't remember if you need to register to see it or not but here's the OP's poast...


It has taken 18.85 years, 133 oil changes, 16 sets of tires, 10 sets of brake pads, 7 alternators, 6 60,000-mile services, 5 sets of struts, 4 clutches, 2 replacement starters, 1 replacement set of synchronizer blocking rings, 1 replacement set of connecting rod bearings, untold numbers of other miscellaneous parts and the original, very well seasoned engine block, heads and transaxle to get my January 1991-manufactured SHO to the 400,000 mile mark.

Thanks to all in this Forum who have helped with the advice, experience and parts to allow this simple, but iconic ride achieve such a long distance milestone. Thanks also to Castrol GTX and dedicated maintenance.

Long live the SHO.

thebigjimsho
10-21-09, 11:52 PM
...AND...

this guy doesn't baby the SHO. He tows with it and tracks it as well...

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/366000-mile-SHO-lapping_159794.htm

Stingroo
10-21-09, 11:56 PM
lol That's gonna be me with my car. I can see it now. I think it'd be cool to roll my odometer over to 000000

CADYSHAK
10-22-09, 12:26 AM
If I persue to look for a used town car (2000 and up) which year is the best ?
Comparing a cadillac DTS vs the town car which is the better of the two ? reliability is important.

thanks

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-22-09, 12:27 AM
Aside from inside the SHO group, it's little known that the Yamaha engines can last as long as they do. People automatically hear Yamaha and think it's extremely complicated, expensive and unreliable. Cool cars. :)

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
10-22-09, 12:37 AM
I never thought of Yamaha that way. I hear Yamaha and instantly think "All they make is rice rockets and ATVs."

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-22-09, 12:41 AM
And pianos.

I guess the only reason I thought of them like that (atleast in the SHO) is because when I was about 17, my dad wouldn't let me have the SHO because he feared expensive, complicated repairs.

DopeStar 156
10-22-09, 01:26 AM
They'll probably end up with MK-S's or whatever the fullsize is now. Now would be a good time for Cadillac to step up with something to compete with...... Go..... Do it.... Hurry up......

Aron9000
10-22-09, 03:01 AM
They'll probably end up with MK-S's or whatever the fullsize is now. Now would be a good time for Cadillac to step up with something to compete with...... Go..... Do it.... Hurry up......

Yeah, something like the SLS they sell in China . . . .

http://www.auto-power-girl.com/cars-2007/cadillac-specifications/cadillac_shanghai_gm_sls_chinese_version-1247

Its a long wheelbase version of the STS sedan with a nicer interior produced in China for the chauffer market, what a concept:hide:

thebigjimsho
10-22-09, 10:02 AM
I never thought of Yamaha that way. I hear Yamaha and instantly think "All they make is rice rockets and ATVs."
Yamaha's work in DOHC engines is near legendary. They've massaged a number of engines over the years, such as the Celica GTS. The engine in the Celica GTS, coincidentally, is the engine in the Lotus Elise. The Exige has a supercharged version of this engine. Also, the V8 Volvo uses is Yamaha sourced.

The engine in the IS-F has won a lot of acclaim. Another Yamaha creation...

DopeStar 156
10-25-09, 01:57 AM
Yeah, something like the SLS they sell in China . . . .

http://www.auto-power-girl.com/cars-2007/cadillac-specifications/cadillac_shanghai_gm_sls_chinese_version-1247

Its a long wheelbase version of the STS sedan with a nicer interior produced in China for the chauffer market, what a concept:hide:

Not for nothing, the STS isn't a small car. I parked next to a 300 today and found it was slightly longer. Not a bad livery car with the exception of the price tag......

Aron9000
10-25-09, 04:29 AM
Not for nothing, the STS isn't a small car. I parked next to a 300 today and found it was slightly longer. Not a bad livery car with the exception of the price tag......

I really like the STS, and it would be my choice if I were in the market for a newer model Cadillac. V8+Smooth ride+big sedan body=my ultimate Cadillac. However, more space is king in the chauffer market, hence why Cadillac should offer a long wheelbase version, especially since they already make it in China.

Sandy
10-25-09, 08:20 PM
http://www.wpchryslerexecutiveseries300.com/pdfs/Chrysler%20LWB%20Market%20Research%20Study_060308. pdf

Enlarge it & read it all..........

caddycruiser
10-25-09, 09:12 PM
That's interesting...

...these have been out for a while, but I've never seen such internal data/feedback on them, as in this. Hah, good stuff. They're about the closest thing to replacing a Town Car for livery service, even though still not nearly as meaty of a car, mechanically underneath. Cheap and simple enough, just also too bad there isn't a factory built longer wheelbase model not requiring a stretch after...though the normal length models would suffice, for most.

caddycruiser
10-25-09, 09:18 PM
Not for nothing, the STS isn't a small car. I parked next to a 300 today and found it was slightly longer. Not a bad livery car with the exception of the price tag......

And the fact that, although not small outside, it suffers from the issue of having an oddly cramped rear seat in regards to foot/leg space. Just not enough, compared to LX cars or otherwise.

77CDV
10-25-09, 10:28 PM
Pity any current Mopar is a mechanical disaster waiting to happen. And, they just look cheap.

orconn
10-25-09, 11:38 PM
Sorry Sandy, it looks like a leftover from the old Kremlin garage. Chrrysler would need to develope a whole new car if it were to have any real chance to capture some of the corporate livery market. If they made the extended 300 a hybrid and painted it NYC taxi yellow they might have a successor to the Checker. Althought the minivans seem to fill that function pretty well.

thebigjimsho
10-26-09, 01:31 PM
http://www.wpchryslerexecutiveseries300.com/pdfs/Chrysler%20LWB%20Market%20Research%20Study_060308. pdf

Enlarge it & read it all..........
90% is a pretty poor number if you ask me. Everyone I ever talk to ALWAYS comments on how the Town Car is perfect for what it does.

You will NEVER see any comments about the trunk size or the ride that is negative(even though I think my '07 isn't as good as my '04...). And even though I don't think of the TC as being opulent, it certainly doesn't look cheap.

And the 300's outward appearance in the LWB is goofy. The Town Car arguably looks even better as an L.

The bottom line? In the large Boston market, I have seen maybe 2 or 3 of these Chryslers running around as opposed to thousands of TCs and hundreds of DTSs...

CADYSHAK
10-27-09, 12:27 AM
OK , you know that this survey is severly skewed when the supposedly "positive" comments about the 300 lwb is that it is "quieter and smoother riding " than a lincoln ?
I don't think so !!!
I've leased a 300c for four years and the ride is anything but smooth not to mention that the road noise level in the car is quite loud ! The chrysler 300's are cheap inside and are NOT nearly as reliable as the town car .

thebigjimsho
10-27-09, 10:20 AM
They'll probably end up with MK-S's or whatever the fullsize is now. Now would be a good time for Cadillac to step up with something to compete with...... Go..... Do it.... Hurry up......
Oh, and the MK-S has a good sized trunk with a tiny opening. That will not work! And for as big and tall as it is, the back seat room borders on piss-poor...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-27-09, 06:29 PM
OK , you know that this survey is severly skewed when the supposedly "positive" comments about the 300 lwb is that it is "quieter and smoother riding " than a lincoln ?
I don't think so !!!


They're "quiet and smooth" when compared to a Sebring! Of course that's like comparing White Castle to Ruby Tuesdays! :rimshot:

CADYSHAK
10-27-09, 10:48 PM
They're "quiet and smooth" when compared to a Sebring! Of course that's like comparing White Castle to Ruby Tuesdays!

Good One !!!

thebigjimsho
10-28-09, 05:50 PM
If I persue to look for a used town car (2000 and up) which year is the best ?
Comparing a cadillac DTS vs the town car which is the better of the two ? reliability is important.

thanks
I loved my '04. Don't like my '07.

CADYSHAK
10-28-09, 11:25 PM
what was the difference between your 04 vs your 07 car?

thebigjimsho
10-29-09, 11:40 PM
Cost cutting. At least on the Executive Series...

CADYSHAK
11-12-09, 11:18 PM
What is the best year for the town car ?
Looking for a used lincoln .

96Fleetwood
11-13-09, 06:52 AM
what is the best year for the town car ?
Looking for a used lincoln .

2004

CADYSHAK
11-13-09, 09:50 PM
Thanks .