: Price High Styling Laacking 2005 STS/ E 500



jerseyvette
07-14-04, 05:14 PM
STS People,

Here are two pictures. The STS with options tops out in the mid 60K range (WAY OVER PRICED IMO). And also attached is the 2005 E500 Mercedes. Anyone else think that the STS looks a lot cheaper than the Mercedes? I was hoping for a broader more classic styling theme for the 2005 STS. Remember the bigon days when having a Seville meant you were doing better then the average guy on the block? Remeber the feel of sitting in the back of a car and actually fitting into it.

Here is where Benz is kicking Caddy's ass right now (regarding the 2005 STS)
1) The E 500 stayed with a classic/prestige grill theme (caddy did not)
2) The E 500 appears to be a bigger car and looks good when parked (The STS is sigma'd out and looks like a CTS XL which is what it is)
3) I'd bet an E500 Engine would have a lot more off the line kick than a 320 horse Northstar.

Again, I have owned Caddy's forever and most likely will not switch to MB but you have to see the points I am raising...

jerseyvette
07-14-04, 05:27 PM
Another Pic to show what I am referring to.


The STS is not suppodsed to look like a mid line Infinity!!!!

BeelzeBob
07-14-04, 05:34 PM
STS People,

Here are two pictures. The STS with options tops out in the mid 60K range (WAY OVER PRICED IMO). Remember the bigon days when having a Seville meant you were doing better then the average guy on the block? Remeber the feel of sitting in the back of a car and actually fitting into it.

I think the average guy will still have trouble owning a brand-new STS. I agree with you on the size of cars nowadays - but the STS isn't Cadillac's BIG car.. That's the DeVille - which isn't very big anyway. I hope they increase the size of whatever replaced the DeVille..

At any cost - the looks of the STS vs E500 are just a matter of taste. I think many people will go either way in regards to the looks. I forget what the inside of the E500 looks like - but as far as the outside goes, I don't think the STS looks bad. BMW seems to do just fine and the 3, 5 and 7 series have looked similar except for size for quite awhile...

Brett
07-14-04, 05:37 PM
the price is not good imo. lexus made their mark by undercutting everyone else. i know cadillac isnt a startup like lexus, but in some ways they are in worse shape because they are not coming from no reputation, they are coming from a negative reputation.

i see no possible reason to trade my ls430 for a new sts. my car matches it in features and beats it in resale and reliability. and my LS was cheaper as well.

miscreant
07-14-04, 08:00 PM
The STS with options tops out in the mid 60K range (WAY OVER PRICED IMO)...With ALL available options, tops out mid 60K. This is a versatile priced car, starting in the low 40s and ending in the mid 60s...


Remeber the feel of sitting in the back of a car and actually fitting into it.The STS in many pictures looks small, and that's because it's TALL. It's taller than a current deville.


2) The E 500 appears to be a bigger car and looks good when parked (The STS is sigma'd out and looks like a CTS XL which is what it is)The STS: 4" longer wheel base, 7" longer overall, 1.3" wider, and .5" taller.

miscreant
07-14-04, 08:13 PM
...and my LS was cheaper as well.
??:hmm: ?? I believe the 04 LS 430 starts at ~$56K before any packages or options. A FULLY loaded 1SG rear wheel drive STS is right at $60K, and that's only the price of a LS 430 with the PT Modern Luxury package. A 1SG STS is more comparable to something between the Custom and Ultra Luxury LS 430 ($65-$68K), and that's 04 pricing. Supposedly there's a $1800 price increase on the LS 430 for 2005.

megeebee
07-14-04, 08:21 PM
Another Pic to show what I am referring to.


The STS is not suppodsed to look like a mid line Infinity!!!!It's probably more accurate to say the a mid-line Infiniti looks like a Cadillac, rather than the other way 'round. Nissan/Infiniti has done a very good job of copying the themes of the Evoq concept car since its introduction in 1999.

megeebee
07-14-04, 08:29 PM
...With ALL available options, tops out mid 60K. This is a versatile priced car, starting in the low 40s and ending in the mid 60s...

The STS in many pictures looks small, and that's because it's TALL. It's taller than a current deville.

The STS: 4" longer wheel base, 7" longer overall, 1.3" wider, and .5" taller.
You did it again, miscreant! That pic is the best profile shot of STS I've seen so far. I wonder how jerseyvette would feel if he/she could see the C, E, and S all lined up in profile? How could one tell them apart?

May I ask, these dimensions you've listed. Is this compared to the E 500?

Brett
07-14-04, 10:41 PM
??:hmm: ?? I believe the 04 LS 430 starts at ~$56K before any packages or options. A FULLY loaded 1SG rear wheel drive STS is right at $60K, and that's only the price of a LS 430 with the PT Modern Luxury package. A 1SG STS is more comparable to something between the Custom and Ultra Luxury LS 430 ($65-$68K), and that's 04 pricing. Supposedly there's a $1800 price increase on the LS 430 for 2005.


My LS with modern lux package(mark levinson, nav, bluetooth, backup camera, climate seats, parking assist front and rear), smartkey and sport package was 62159, i got 3k off of that. Id say those features are very comparable to the STS 1sg. I think the STS has HUD and laser cruise control which mine doesnt. mine has a 6-speed trans, rear vanity mirrors, adaptive headlights, power rear sunshade, back up camera, FRONT and rear parking assist, i dont think the STS has any of those. Basically, pretty evenly matched cars imo. And basically the same price, which is what scares me. until cadillac builds up a resale values, you gotta admit the LS is a bit of a better value.

you know im a cadillac fan miscreant, but i just dont see how the STS stacks up against some of the PROVEN competitors. which i guess is my point. if im gonna take a chance on a luxury car, i wish it were a little cheaper than its competitors

hawkman
07-14-04, 11:20 PM
Take a look at the pictures in the current issue of Car and Driver. this car looks GREAT in Black. I think better than the Mercedes (I never thought I would say that). It also gets a great review!

Devil_concours
07-15-04, 02:11 PM
imo, new e class is the best car that mb has put out in a long time

Brett
07-15-04, 02:14 PM
the E has a ridiculously deep footwell as well. im actually able to straighten my legs in that car, and im a bit over 6'9"

EgyptianQueen
07-15-04, 03:30 PM
you know im a cadillac fan miscreant, but i just dont see how the STS stacks up against some of the PROVEN competitors. which i guess is my point. if im gonna take a chance on a luxury car, i wish it were a little cheaper than its competitors:rant2: I believe many import purchasers forget that Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz had to get their ideas from somewhere.....Cadillac. When BMW, MB & Lexus were starting out, who do you think those companies looked to to introduce themselves into the US market? Its a shame! Who the hell needs rear vanity mirrors? That is a BIT much, IMO! A back-up camera? Do you hear the words "distorted picture?" And if you were hurt and attempted to sue because the camera didn't display the rear appropriately, SOL. Cadillac's back-up aid is much better, none the less. Did I see the word cheap? Why should Cadillac compete in a "prestige luxury market" and be the cheapest!:rant2::want:

Brett
07-15-04, 03:39 PM
:rant2: I believe many import purchasers forget that Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz had to get their ideas from somewhere.....Cadillac. When BMW, MB & Lexus were starting out, who do you think those companies looked to to introduce themselves into the US market? Its a shame! Who the hell needs rear vanity mirrors? That is a BIT much, IMO! A back-up camera? Do you hear the words "distorted picture?" And if you were hurt and attempted to sue because the camera didn't display the rear appropriately, SOL. Cadillac's back-up aid is much better, none the less. Did I see the word cheap? Why should Cadillac compete in a "prestige luxury market" and be the cheapest!:rant2::want:

yeah, some of those features are pretty useless, i was just trying to point out the differences, i think the cars are basically evenly matched. although i do like the back up camera, and there is also 6 sensors back there, opposed to the STS's 4 :p

like i said my point was for the same money, i dont want to take a risk on the STS. cars are one thing in life there is no gain to taking a risk on. because if it turns out to be a home run, you can always buy one then, its not like they are limiting the amount they manufacture. i just wish they would let the newcomers get a little discount. if it topped out at 59,999 i think that would be great

P.S. i forgot the mag ride on the STS, lexus doesnt have that

Brett
07-15-04, 03:41 PM
Why should Cadillac compete in a "prestige luxury market" and be the cheapest!:rant2::want:


read about lexus and you'll answer that question

jerseyvette
07-15-04, 06:16 PM
You did it again, miscreant! That pic is the best profile shot of STS I've seen so far. I wonder how jerseyvette would feel if he/she could see the C, E, and S all lined up in profile? How could one tell them apart?

May I ask, these dimensions you've listed. Is this compared to the E 500?I think we all agree that the new STS is a styling disappointment from almost every category. Would the car be a real player badged as the "2005 Aurora" or "New Euro-Fighter Buick"? Definately! But as the Caddy that we were expecting to set direction for the company of GM on a world scale (in the presitge segment)??? Sorry but it falls way short of what I was expecting.I was just in Vegas as a club called the Sterling Club where many hitters and wanna-bees were driving up to the valet. The absolute "real hitters" had 4 door Bentley's and cars of that level. As the crowd tapered down more into the middle man/younger exec space you saw MB E Class and BMW 745 level cars (even a few older models pulled in).

What's the point here? The point is that the "club type" of buyer is looking for the same type of style cars that I like. This style is a heavy looking (yet well handling), stodgy (yet aerodynamic) and roomy (yet sleek) style of car. This is why I am so fond of the Chrysler 300C. It has a Chrently (Chrysler/Bentley combined:-) type of styling which I REALLY admire.

I then ask myself "why" is GM taking the approach of the 2005 STS Design? All I can guess is that they(GM Decision Makers) see it as a safe (globally confused IMO) bet that will attract smaller people that may otherwise buy a smaller sized Infinity, Lexus or Jaguar (notice I pointed out the smaller models). What GM fails to understand is that taking a lead role (in marketing they call this the pioneer role) that includes certain risks. Now why could Caddillac not come out with a car (in addition to the existing models) that has the type of appeal that I have been discussing? I'm talking about a car that you would buy for $48K that would have a 385HP V8 and be intended to show up a silver Mercedes S55 when parked next to it at the valet? Why is it that the foreign car buyer (Audi A8, S 500 etc) has to have bigger and more impressive car in 2004 than anything made here in America?

Anyone else agree with my thoughts? I welcome feedback.

Mr. Jersey vette:want:

Devil_concours
07-15-04, 06:53 PM
I think we all agree that the new STS is a styling disappointment from almost every category. Would the car be a real player badged as the "2005 Aurora" or "New Euro-Fighter Buick"? Definately! But as the Caddy that we were expecting to set direction for the company of GM on a world scale (in the presitge segment)??? Sorry but it falls way short of what I was expecting.I was just in Vegas as a club called the Sterling Club where many hitters and wanna-bees were driving up to the valet. The absolute "real hitters" had 4 door Bentley's and cars of that level. As the crowd tapered down more into the middle man/younger exec space you saw MB E Class and BMW 745 level cars (even a few older models pulled in).

What's the point here? The point is that the "club type" of buyer is looking for the same type of style cars that I like. This style is a heavy looking (yet well handling), stodgy (yet aerodynamic) and roomy (yet sleek) style of car. This is why I am so fond of the Chrysler 300C. It has a Chrently (Chrysler/Bentley combined:-) type of styling which I REALLY admire.

I then ask myself "why" is GM taking the approach of the 2005 STS Design? All I can guess is that they(GM Decision Makers) see it as a safe (globally confused IMO) bet that will attract smaller people that may otherwise buy a smaller sized Infinity, Lexus or Jaguar (notice I pointed out the smaller models). What GM fails to understand is that taking a lead role (in marketing they call this the pioneer role) that includes certain risks. Now why could Caddillac not come out with a car (in addition to the existing models) that has the type of appeal that I have been discussing? I'm talking about a car that you would buy for $48K that would have a 385HP V8 and be intended to show up a silver Mercedes S55 when parked next to it at the valet? Why is it that the foreign car buyer (Audi A8, S 500 etc) has to have bigger and more impressive car in 2004 than anything made here in America?

Anyone else agree with my thoughts? I welcome feedback.

Mr. Jersey vette:want:
because
1. Deville is meant to fight against a8, s etc not STS.
2. STS is adequate enough for most people even few taller people like me (6'2"). I fit in my cts fine.
3. S55 will run you 100k+
4. Not everyone wants a huge car. Times are changing and everyone wants something reasonable.

5. STYLING IS SUBJECTIVE and i think it looks pretty good.

jerseyvette
07-16-04, 04:52 PM
because
1. Deville is meant to fight against a8, s etc not STS.
2. STS is adequate enough for most people even few taller people like me (6'2"). I fit in my cts fine.
3. S55 will run you 100k+
4. Not everyone wants a huge car. Times are changing and everyone wants something reasonable.

5. STYLING IS SUBJECTIVE and i think it looks pretty good.
I saw the car in person parked last weekend and it is really plain and small (very compact interior). Deville to me is a plainly styled car as well. Where is the Cadillac 16 with a 400HP Z06 motor or a HO Northstar when you need it....:crying:

jerseyvette
07-16-04, 04:56 PM
because
1. Deville is meant to fight against a8, s etc not STS.
2. STS is adequate enough for most people even few taller people like me (6'2"). I fit in my cts fine.
3. S55 will run you 100k+
4. Not everyone wants a huge car. Times are changing and everyone wants something reasonable.

5. STYLING IS SUBJECTIVE and i think it looks pretty good.
Let's see??? Who would win this contest in prestige, size, features and performance???? Anyone want to volunteer an answer???

jerseyvette
07-16-04, 04:58 PM
Anyone else agree? Fancied up economy sized car:

CAR Motorsports
07-16-04, 05:22 PM
From what I have read, most stories lead me to conclude that the 300C is largely (NOT completely though) an E class mercedes with a hemi and chrysler badging. The 300C has borrowed heavily from the E class. If true, I would find it tough to justify $60K plus for a car when the 300C (or E300 clone if you like) is out there for $35K.

Just my opinions. Now where's my Hemi?

Alan

CaddyFan2004
07-16-04, 06:41 PM
Anyone else agree? Fancied up economy sized car:
I don't agree.

According to what I've read, the interior styling, the ride and handling, and the engine power and refinement make the STS a great competitor for BMW.

Devil_concours
07-16-04, 07:02 PM
From what I have read, most stories lead me to conclude that the 300C is largely (NOT completely though) an E class mercedes with a hemi and chrysler badging. The 300C has borrowed heavily from the E class. If true, I would find it tough to justify $60K plus for a car when the 300C (or E300 clone if you like) is out there for $35K.

Just my opinions. Now where's my Hemi?

Alan
fyi, it shares platform with previous gen e class not the new ones.

Devil_concours
07-16-04, 07:03 PM
Let's see??? Who would win this contest in prestige, size, features and performance???? Anyone want to volunteer an answer???
we will just have to wait and see when cadillac actually comes out with the new deville on a rwd platform.

btw, one of the comparison had a dts above s430. It also runs simlar times with a lot of base v8 sedans(not the top of the line/high performance versions)

Msilva954
07-16-04, 09:00 PM
Actually it replicates the current E Classes suspension and a couple other things....but in all its only like 25-30% mercedes E class.....

I agree though with the STS being way over priced.......the European cars get away with it because they are overhyped......the STS is just plain expensive with the options...I mean how can a $46-$48k car go all the way up $14,000 in options....cmon when we bought are new house it had $20,000 in options and we have $200,000 in equity........the STS options are really overpriced....I cant picture alot of top of the line STS's around.

I like it but I dont love it.....for that money Ill have a BMW 545i in my driveway.

Caddy Man
07-17-04, 03:10 AM
why is everyone complain that the sts is priced to high?? a fully loaded sts or dts has always (at least in the past few years) gone for roughly 58,000 FULLY LOADED. its been like that for a few years now.

Msilva954
07-17-04, 11:39 AM
Maybe $58,000 canadian dollars.....but here Ive never seen one cadillac ever sell for that price.....a neighbor of my grandfather got a brand new DTS when the 03' came out and he ended up paying $45,000 fully loaded with every option.....including the cloth top and vogues..........maybe we just get better deals in Florida but the only cadillac down here that sells for that price is the Escalade.

Slick V
07-17-04, 10:08 PM
Maybe $58,000 canadian dollars.....but here Ive never seen one cadillac ever sell for that price.....a neighbor of my grandfather got a brand new DTS when the 03' came out and he ended up paying $45,000 fully loaded with every option.....including the cloth top and vogues..........maybe we just get better deals in Florida but the only cadillac down here that sells for that price is the Escalade.

You can go to cadillac.com and build a 2004 DTS, fully loaded it is just about $61,000. The last STS when fully loaded was alittle more then that if I remember correctly. I think that this new STS has alot more to offer then its predicesor(AWD, HUD, etc.), and it still didnt rise in price from the update.

Thinking about 14K in options isnt bad when you look at the MB E-class for instance starts at $48,795 and will run to about $110,000 fully loaded.

jerseyvette
07-17-04, 11:48 PM
You can go to cadillac.com and build a 2004 DTS, fully loaded it is just about $61,000. The last STS when fully loaded was alittle more then that if I remember correctly. I think that this new STS has alot more to offer then its predicesor(AWD, HUD, etc.), and it still didnt rise in price from the update.

Thinking about 14K in options isnt bad when you look at the MB E-class for instance starts at $48,795 and will run to about $110,000 fully loaded.

My version of the facts:
1) The Chrysler seems like a lot tougher of a car (based on pedigree and mechanical components) Than a CTS , I'm sorry that was a Freudian Slip, I meant to say STS (the one letter difference is worth 30K in price yeah right!)
2) The STS is a major disappointment and a safe bet that will all go to hell for GM when people "avoid" the car.
3)We're all pretty pissed that the German-owned and manager Diamler Chrysler is hitting home with car lovers in America more than GM is with the 300C.
4) Deville's UNI-BODY platform is a cousin of a 1985 Cadillac Seville and we are sick of living in the past and getting charged out the butt for it.
5)Cadillac has abandoned people like me who need to fit in cars and want value and exclusivity in a brand.
6) Germans (although stodgy in general style) still have the edge in making cars that "we wish we had".
7) GM's cadillac engineers continue to disappoint on everything but the Escalade in 2004.

Did I say the cars were too small? Oh yes I did..sorry for repeating myself...

Please chime in here where you agree. Every pro-2005 STS poster either works for GM or is a dealer. I want true customers like me who would step upa nd buy a new Cadillac....(nothing against dealers but we all know that your compensation plan dictates your behavior and you will have a bias in your posts).

Mr. Jersey Vette :suspect:

strindl
07-18-04, 12:42 AM
My version of the facts:
Please chime in here where you agree. Every pro-2005 STS poster either works for GM or is a dealer. I want true customers like me who would step upa nd buy a new Cadillac....(nothing against dealers but we all know that your compensation plan dictates your behavior and you will have a bias in your posts).

Mr. Jersey Vette :suspect:


Hmm..I think I qualify as a real customer...with no connections to cadillac or GM. My 04 CTS is my first Caddy, but I've owned lots of other GM cars before..94 and 99 Corvettes, 2000 and 2003 Silverados, a couple Astro Vans, Grand Am, grand Prix, etc.....

I'm very happy with my CTS but am seriously considering the new STS. I stopped and picked up a brochure at a dealer this afternoon..he said he has two on order right now..a fully loaded AWD model with the V8, and one V6. The AWD, is my main motivation for looking at making a change, but I do like the looks of the STS from the pictures I have seen. I've driven a mercedes E Class and found it to be a very nice car, but if you want to hear some customer horror stories...just check out some of the on line forums for the Mercedes. After reading some of those..I wouldn't touch a Mercedes right now.

I still have to see and drive an STS , but I like what I've seen of it so far. I've also found a very good Cadillac dealer with a great service dept...that makes the decision to stick with caddy easier.

Caddy Man
07-18-04, 12:54 AM
Maybe $58,000 canadian dollars.....but here Ive never seen one cadillac ever sell for that price.....a neighbor of my grandfather got a brand new DTS when the 03' came out and he ended up paying $45,000 fully loaded with every option.....including the cloth top and vogues..........maybe we just get better deals in Florida but the only cadillac down here that sells for that price is the Escalade.
you may have to check those details out about that sale...unless he had some special connection i have no idea how he got that car for that cheap. go to any website, even cadillac.com, i just went and built my DTS...just a base DTS costs 51,000 and with all the options fully loaded it comes out to 60,000, thats 9,000 dollars in options. same goes for the sts. go to any dealership and find a fully laoded sts or dts, they are all gonna be around 58-60,000

majax
07-18-04, 02:29 AM
There are to many insults on the 2005STS for me to qoute, in this thread! Gosh guys, most of you are just there sitting at your computers judging a vehicle youve barely seen in person if at all. As for the STS on its interior being small hey you gota sit in the thing first and the smaller it is means there is a greater attention to somewhere else in the car likely like quality materials or making it lighter. The pricing is fine, it probably costs a lot of money to build a car as quality as it prob is. Also do you think GM just came up with the price out of their butt with no thought, NO! They put a lot of money into this car and a lot of thought, unlike most of you they are trained in the matters of pricing vehicles to compete(trust them). Someone said, "it wont sell" or something like that, well its GONA OKAY cause its a quality well engineered car and its unique not just another Lexus or BMW it's a Cadillac and its better. Have some faith and hope. As for the first to pictures the STS is paid no justice in that pic and the E 500 looks great. The STS is clasy in a different way it has modern style, think of it in front of a modern art gallery with rich folks smoozin away. :drinker

2005 STS is a true Cadillac all the way down to the brake fluid!

frank78
07-18-04, 11:32 AM
i hope some body makes a after-market grill for the sts. just like the cts plastic grill lol...........

Brett
07-18-04, 02:01 PM
I'm sorry that was a Freudian Slip, I meant to say STS (the one letter difference is worth 30K in price yeah right!)


only accurate if you are comparing base price of one and fully loaded price of another.


On another note. To all the 300C lovers. If you think luxury car owners want to drive a car that bases around 25k and they see EVERYWHERE, then your crazy. And if you link me to some article about people trading in their Benz's and lexus's for Chryslers, ill show you a bunch of pissed of people in a few months when they realize chrysler is selling like 25k of these a month.

Exclusivity matters. Why do you think the AMG's and M's are popular? Power? not likely.

Slick V
07-18-04, 02:48 PM
My version of the facts:
1) The Chrysler seems like a lot tougher of a car (based on pedigree and mechanical components) Than a CTS , I'm sorry that was a Freudian Slip, I meant to say STS (the one letter difference is worth 30K in price yeah right!)
2) The STS is a major disappointment and a safe bet that will all go to hell for GM when people "avoid" the car.
3)We're all pretty pissed that the German-owned and manager Diamler Chrysler is hitting home with car lovers in America more than GM is with the 300C.
4) Deville's UNI-BODY platform is a cousin of a 1985 Cadillac Seville and we are sick of living in the past and getting charged out the butt for it.
5)Cadillac has abandoned people like me who need to fit in cars and want value and exclusivity in a brand.
6) Germans (although stodgy in general style) still have the edge in making cars that "we wish we had".
7) GM's cadillac engineers continue to disappoint on everything but the Escalade in 2004.

Did I say the cars were too small? Oh yes I did..sorry for repeating myself...

Please chime in here where you agree. Every pro-2005 STS poster either works for GM or is a dealer. I want true customers like me who would step upa nd buy a new Cadillac....(nothing against dealers but we all know that your compensation plan dictates your behavior and you will have a bias in your posts).

Mr. Jersey Vette :suspect:

The STS doesnt really appeal to me, just got a CTS-V, but the STS is still a hell of a value. As for everything comeing out of Cadillac is a disappointment, I think that there coming out with the best quality and valued vehicles in the market. The only benz that really appeals to me is the E55, which is nothing that I would trade my V for. You think prices are expensive, look at it as "keeping the brand exclusive".

gothicaleigh
07-18-04, 07:54 PM
Please chime in here where you agree. Every pro-2005 STS poster either works for GM or is a dealer. I want true customers like me who would step upa nd buy a new Cadillac....(nothing against dealers but we all know that your compensation plan dictates your behavior and you will have a bias in your posts).

Ignoring your uneducated 'versions of the facts' (most people just call that opinion), here is what has been said by people that don't work for GM or are dealers and have actually driven the car:

"Cadillac has finally endowed one of its new generation four-doors with an interior that needs no excuses. The cabin of this STS not only looks and feels sumptuous but is also largely devoid of the visual and electronic overkill that infests many of it's competitors. As we've come to expect from the Sigma-platform cars, the STS drives beautifully with quick reflexes, excellent grip, and the kind of honest responsesthat let you drive it perfectly smoothly without brain-straining concentration. The ride could be more absorbant on rough city streets, and such a large car deserves more rear-seat and trunk space, but this STS is unquestionably the best Cadillac I've driven."
~Csaba Csere

gothicaleigh
07-18-04, 08:04 PM
"The Cadillac team is utterly upbeat about this car. If American luxury-sports-sedan buyers have been jumping ship to European cars and their peculiar sense of sensibilities for a concrete reason (and we think they have), then the people at Cadillac have seen the light. Hallelujah!
Here's a Caddy that drives like BMW's did before that company's infatuation wit technology began injecting Novocain between driver and machine. Damn, this STS unwinds a chunk of California/'s coastline like no Caddy ever has, and that's in the cushy-riding model without the 1SG package that I drove on the Left Coast. Thanks, Cadillac."
~Barry Winfield

gothicaleigh
07-18-04, 08:13 PM
"Here, finally, is something I thought I'd never see: a Cadillac that wants to get in the ring with the big cars from BMW and Mercedes.
Those 'postmodern' Caddys of the 90s made gestures in that direction, but they always carried the burdensome trappings of the big sprawling American car: sleepy suspensions, big for bigness's sake, styling that seemed behind the times. The new car has a sport ride as hard as any BMW's, a very strong V8, a sporty manual-style shifting function, and a rock-solid feel much like an... E-class Mercedes. The STS's price undercuts that of the S-class and 7-series, but the real problem is this: Will buyers accept the idea of a $62,000 Cadillac?"
~Steve Spence

gothicaleigh
07-18-04, 08:16 PM
"Disable the traction control, summon some minor brake torque, and you can paint 10 feet of rubber stripes."

"Sixty mph arrives in six seconds flat, same as what a 745i can manage.
Course the BMW goes on to eat the quarter-mile in 14.6 seconds at 97 mph.
Woah! Same as the STS.
What the Cadillac does that the $69,195 BMW doesn't is achieve a top speed of 154 mph. Moreover, Cadillac has calibrated the traction control to allow you to bark the tires at step-off without imposing Big Brother's mechanical hand of moderation. Nice."

"Fact is, the previous STS was never really a performance car. It was a luxury sedan that simply didn't embarrass itself in the hills. This new STS, in contrast, is barking at the city limits of hot-rod-dom, notably in it's edgy ride, booming acceleration, and tenacious handling."

"For decades, Cadillac seemed content to stay a step ahead of Lincoln. Now, with the STS -and the SRX before it- you really DO get the feeling the division is serious about competing with foreign luxury brands. When our test car arrived, chief engineer Jim Frederico pointed proudly at panel gaps that have been narrowed to three millimeters from the old car's five. Then he pointed to the top of the door frames, which blend almost invisibly into the roof in a costly "Dutch hem" design. "Let's see Mercedes match THAT," he said.
When's the last time you heard a Lincoln guy say that?"
~John Phillips, Car&Driver - August 2004

jerseyvette
07-18-04, 08:46 PM
There are to many insults on the 2005STS for me to qoute, in this thread! Gosh guys, most of you are just there sitting at your computers judging a vehicle youve barely seen in person if at all. As for the STS on its interior being small hey you gota sit in the thing first and the smaller it is means there is a greater attention to somewhere else in the car likely like quality materials or making it lighter. The pricing is fine, it probably costs a lot of money to build a car as quality as it prob is. Also do you think GM just came up with the price out of their butt with no thought, NO! They put a lot of money into this car and a lot of thought, unlike most of you they are trained in the matters of pricing vehicles to compete(trust them). Someone said, "it wont sell" or something like that, well its GONA OKAY cause its a quality well engineered car and its unique not just another Lexus or BMW it's a Cadillac and its better. Have some faith and hope. As for the first to pictures the STS is paid no justice in that pic and the E 500 looks great. The STS is clasy in a different way it has modern style, think of it in front of a modern art gallery with rich folks smoozin away. :drinker

2005 STS is a true Cadillac all the way down to the brake fluid!

Whatever you are smoking please share it with the rest of us so that we can share the same version of "reality!"
1) NO SIGMA car is worth 60K anywhere in the world(now or in 10 years).
2) The New STS (Which I have inspected closely in person here in NJ) is super-small looking and the interior is essentially a changed version of what you see in the CTS. Why 60K!!???!!! I just do not see where the rationale is for charging so much for the car.
3) The 2005 STS is a mid to smaller sized car from an interior size perspective. This was fine with the CTS because we all saw it as generally a competitor the the BMW 3 Series. It never really copeted wityh the E Class Mercedes or 5 Series BMW. These buyers were in a different segment. $40K is C CLass MB or 3 Series Beamer territoiry which CTS is really a great fit and value for. Now when you try to shove an enlarged body on a CTS SIGMA platform and slap a 545i price tag on it you HAVE TO BE NUTS.
4) I am all around disappointed with the STS froma size and styling perspective. Even the 1992-1997 Seville was considered a bit bland at introduction by some but it is a hell of a car in style and in interior domensions.
5) Maybe in Asia where people are smaller Caddy hopes to make a killing. But I'd see buyers over there going for a 300C type of shape over a 2005 STS Sigma shape.
6) Since every other car that Cadillac makes is on the same platform the STS pricing sghould be more in line with a 2004 SLS for a 4 wheel drive 2005 STS.

Please respond after you look at the car in person.

gothicaleigh
07-18-04, 10:08 PM
Whatever you are smoking please share it with the rest of us so that we can share the same version of "reality!"
1) NO SIGMA car is worth 60K anywhere in the world(now or in 10 years).

Why not? It is the best architecture that GM has ever put into production. It is also proving itself to be more formidable than some of the best that Germany has to offer in terms of rigidity and performance applications. Why not ask German sized prices?


2) The New STS (Which I have inspected closely in person here in NJ) is super-small looking and the interior is essentially a changed version of what you see in the CTS. Why 60K!!???!!! I just do not see where the rationale is for charging so much for the car.

I see them all the time here in Michigan (one of my neighbors has been driving one) and I drive a CTS. I can assure you that the interior looks very little like the one in the CTS. Other than the steering wheel, there is actually very little in common...
There is another thread on this forum somewhere that compares it to it's competition and it looks very nice when placed side by side. Go take a look.


3) The 2005 STS is a mid to smaller sized car from an interior size perspective. This was fine with the CTS because we all saw it as generally a competitor the the BMW 3 Series. It never really copeted wityh the E Class Mercedes or 5 Series BMW. These buyers were in a different segment. $40K is C CLass MB or 3 Series Beamer territoiry which CTS is really a great fit and value for. Now when you try to shove an enlarged body on a CTS SIGMA platform and slap a 545i price tag on it you HAVE TO BE NUTS.

The interior space of the CTS is almost identical to that of the 5 series. The STS gains a couple of inches in the rear and at the shoulders. If it is a 'smaller sized car', than so is everything else in the mid-sized luxury sport sedan class.

BMW 5-series
Leg Room(front)....................41.5
Leg Room (rear).....................36.0
Head Room(front)..................37.7
Head Room(rear)...................37.9
Shoulder Room(front).............57.3
Shoulder Room(rear)...............57.2

Cadillac CTS
Leg Room (front)...................42.4
Leg Room (rear)....................36.2
Head Room (front).................38.9
Head Room (rear)..................36.9
Shoulder Room (front)............56.6
Shoulder Room (rear)..............56.2


4) I am all around disappointed with the STS from a size and styling perspective. Even the 1992-1997 Seville was considered a bit bland at introduction by some but it is a hell of a car in style and in interior domensions.

There isn't a whole lot of difference in interior dimensions:

2004 SeVille
Leg room(front).....................42.5
Leg Room(front).....................38.2
Head Room(front)...................38.2
Head Room(rear)....................38.0
Shoulder Room(front)..............59.1
Shoulder Room(rear)...............58.0

2005 STS
Leg Room(front)...................42.6
Leg Room (rear)...................38.3
Head Room(front).................38.7
Head Room(rear)..................37.9
Shoulder Room(front)............58.6
Shoulder Room(rear)..............57.4


5) Maybe in Asia where people are smaller Caddy hopes to make a killing. But I'd see buyers over there going for a 300C type of shape over a 2005 STS Sigma shape.

Yeah, I notice how all of their companies' (Lexus, Acura, Honda, etc.)designs look like 300's... :rolleyes: Show me how you decided that asians prefer a '300 shape', because I see nothing like it over there...
Asia is just in love with large cars too... :bonkers:


6) Since every other car that Cadillac makes is on the same platform the STS pricing should be more in line with a 2004 SLS for a 4 wheel drive 2005 STS.

Why when the 05 STS is better in every way than the 04 SLS? The two share nothing in common. An AWD 320hp version of the STS should cost no more than a FWD 275hp SLS?(and that's not even taking the rest of the improvements into account) Again, I question your logic...

By your platform-reasoning, a Crossfire would cost the same as the Mercedes it shares platforms with. An EXT would cost the same as the Avalanche. An XLR would cost no more than a Corvette. Etc, etc, etc.


Please respond after you look at the car in person.

I suggest you do the same, because based on your comments here I am very suspicious that you ever saw one up close...

jerseyvette
07-18-04, 10:28 PM
I suggest you do the same, because based on your comments here I am very suspicious that you ever saw one up close...

I saw the car last Friday night parked in front of Headquarters Plaza Hotel in Morristown NJ at 7:00 PM. Is that enough information to convince you that I saw the car? I wish I did not because it was a disappointment. I also saw the car at the NY auto show last spring.

Here is a solution for GM:
1) Keep the 2005 STS and lower the price to top out at 50K with options.
2) Since the new Mercedes Benz S Class cars look good but are technically crap (according to the posts I saw tonight on mercedesforums.com) Cadillac needs to jump into this car larger AWD car now or by 2007 latest. The 2007 Cadillac needs to have more front and rear leg room along with better rear head room that a MB S500V (the 2006 model coming out as a new design).
3) This "2007 sister of Cadillac 16" needs to have some of the "Bellagio level luxuries" dropped to make it a $65-80K Car.
4) This next cadillac needs to have a completely new underframe apart from Sigma and have absolutely nothing in common witha CTS, SRX or Deville. The only feature to carry over (which was from Corvette anyway is the magnetic ride control)
5) I want a really aggressive car that is better looking than the Audi future car looking styles and more in line witha producting Cadillac 16 type of car.
6) Shave the "Rolls Phantom" level of niceties and make the car a Lincoln Town Car eater at a audi A8 price on the high end.\

So that everyone knows I love GM and America: I absolutely have loved every caddy I have owned and driven I am in my 30s and every year of my life my family has owned different caddys on almost every platform (except the Diesel versions, Allante and Cimarron). We need to politically put pressue on GM and re-direct their marketing and engineering executives away from the "follower path". Every write up has stated that the nes STS is a great comparison to MB, Lexus and BMW...etc..etc.. Our country was not formed by doing what was safte that other people approved of (Sorry John Kerry) but rater it was based on risk taking, hard work and quality. Cadillac, I want to always own your cars and they are a part of my life and persona. PLEASE don't keep engineering me out of your cars and make something that really LEADS BMW, Mercedes and Lexus into new avant garde' areas of auto manufacturing techniques and designs.

GM STOP PLAYING IT SAFE AS YOU DID WITH 2005 STS.

Devil_concours
07-18-04, 10:41 PM
every single thread you made so far has been nothing but whining about cadillac's size when in fact mulitple members over 6' has commented that the cars are big enough for them. What is your real problem with cadillac? If you like the 300c go ahead and get one.

jerseyvette
07-18-04, 10:43 PM
Let's have a poll:
Which Car's engineers took the safe route? I think this shoudl silence anyone critical of my 2005 STS comments: USA can do better than this. :rant2:

Devil_concours
07-18-04, 10:45 PM
Let's have a poll:
Which Car's engineers took the safe route? I think this shoudl silence anyone critical of my 2005 STS comments: USA can do better than this. :rant2:
as i said before you're once again comparing 2 different class of cars.
CTS - 3series/C-class
STS - 5series/E-class
DTS - 7series/S-class

majax
07-18-04, 11:49 PM
HAHAHA

well those cars all look good and no one played it safe really nor did they go out of this world.

Slick V
07-19-04, 12:09 AM
4) This next cadillac needs to have a completely new underframe apart from Sigma and have absolutely nothing in common witha CTS, SRX or Deville. The only feature to carry over (which was from Corvette anyway is the magnetic ride control)

GM STOP PLAYING IT SAFE AS YOU DID WITH 2005 STS.

FYI the first vehicle to have magnetic ride control was the 2002 STS, later introduced to the Corvette in 2003. As for you thinking Cadillac being a follower, I think that BMW is following Cadillac in a way. All of Cadillacs new models are dareing and fresh, BMW has kindof followed that route in there new models. There new models like the Z4, 5 series, and 7 series all have the loved it or hate it look, a look Cadillac opened the door for.

majax
07-19-04, 04:33 AM
If you didnt know a lot of BMWs use hydra-matic transmissions which have been used by cadillac for years. GM owns Hydra-Matic

gothicaleigh
07-19-04, 11:12 AM
Can we do something about the frickin' H-scroll on this page?! :annoyed:

Try to keep your pics aligned vertically, as it's very annoying to have to scroll over to read every line...
I have to reduce this page to 50% in Opera to even get it to fit on the screen... :helpless:
.................................................. ................

On size:
As for the correct comparison, GM itself has purposely set it's cars in between the two 'common' classes. Both the CTS and the STS compete with the 5 series for example... you just get to pick if you want your 'american 5' to be a little larger or smaller. This way they cover a larger demographic with each car. The STS also compares to the 7, and does a fine job in terms of performance and price.

When the DTS comes out, I gaurantee it will be sized a bit larger than the 7, but be in line with the 7's price and performance. At least that is how Cadillac has placed each of it's redesigns thus far.

For example:
CTS -> 325i, 330i, 525i, 530i (and in V form: 545i)
STS -> 530i, 545i, 7 series
DTS -> 7 series and larger

On price:
A fully loaded $50,000 Cadillac is a fantasy. You can not compare the new designs to the old ones, they're competing in a completely different league.
Lincoln is no longer Cadillac's main competitor, BMW is.
You can only expect what you pay for. You're not going to see world class automobiles if you force GM to cut corners by keeping the prices low. If the car is good, people will buy it regardless of the price.

On styling:
Cadillac has set record sales numbers for itself since the Art&Science design was put in place. I think this alone proves that the designs are appealing.
The STS isn't as polarizing as the CTS, and I agree that I would have liked to see the knife-sharp angles continue. But it's still angular and daring enough to stand out in it's class (a place that is over-crowded with 'me too' designs).
The small details will be worked out during mid-year production based on customer opinion and feedback (just like what was done with the CTS). How many other companies can you say that about?

Caddy Man
07-19-04, 11:34 AM
i have a quick questions: WHY IS EVERYONE GETTIN THEIR PANTIES IN A BUNCH OVER THE PRICE?!?! :rolleyes2 Go the cadillac.com, the 2005 sts starts at 40,995. A 2004 SLS stared at 46,770 for the bottom package. Loaded the SLS came out to about 55,000, and mind you thats SLS; STS was discontinued for 2004, so we are forgettin a few options like the 17 inch wheels and xenon lights that would send that price upwards to around 58,000. A fully loaded DTS with every option goes for 60,000, SO WHAT IF A FULLY LOADED 2005 STS GOES FOR 60,000 ALSO. People complain about the price, yet they bitch at cost cutting when it shows in the car. This is a premium luxury sedan, the price will be around there. The 2005 STS picks up price wise, right where a fully loaded CTS leaves off. People act like cadillac has never done this, well they have been doing it for a few years now on the STS and DTS. For those that feel the price is too high, we have the CTS, so all the bases get covered.

gothicaleigh
07-19-04, 11:54 AM
Exactly.

It's a Cadillac.
Not everyone should be able to afford one.
The price isn't out of line with it's competition.
In fact, it undercuts the price of cars it shares demographics with.

Expect a fully loaded STS to hover around $60k. This is very reasonable.
Other than that: "If you have to worry about the cost, you can't afford it."
Cadillac doesn't (and shouldn't) cater to everyone, especially people wanting new car luxury on a used car budget.

jerseyvette
07-19-04, 05:38 PM
Exactly.

It's a Cadillac.
Not everyone should be able to afford one.
The price isn't out of line with it's competition.
In fact, it undercuts the price of cars it shares demographics with.

Expect a fully loaded STS to hover around $60k. This is very reasonable.
Other than that: "If you have to worry about the cost, you can't afford it."
Cadillac doesn't (and shouldn't) cater to everyone, especially people wanting new car luxury on a used car budget.
Let's all get along here and let's get this straight:

The reason why European cars are more expensive in the US retail market is for several reasons.
1)There are several other import costs and taxes.
2) Overall costs are typically higher to sell in foreign countries(admin expenses, legal etc)
3) General import mark-ups (additional features only sold here that add to the price)
4) Euro Mystique has a certain value in and of itself.

Here is where Cadillac is out of line:
1)OPTION PRICES: Take a CTS for example, it comes with crappy wheels and interior trimmings unless you upgrade for the big bucks packages. What ever happened to a standard car looking great and having wood accents? Doesn't BMW do this?

2) When did a car built here earn a spot to be priced to a point where there is no value in the product? If you are the only one in the state driving a certain type of car that is exclusive this is a whole different story. The STS is a mass production (and CTS parts sharing) car? Why the super price hike? I would spend the $$ on a new car but why do so if you feel "taken for a ride on oprtions?"

3) Would you rather have a 545i? or a STS for the same price? WHich car would have more appeal 3 years later? This is why STS shoud be a car that tops out at $50K

jerseyvette
07-19-04, 05:40 PM
i have a quick questions: WHY IS EVERYONE GETTIN THEIR PANTIES IN A BUNCH OVER THE PRICE?!?! :rolleyes2 Go the cadillac.com, the 2005 sts starts at 40,995. A 2004 SLS stared at 46,770 for the bottom package. Loaded the SLS came out to about 55,000, and mind you thats SLS; STS was discontinued for 2004, so we are forgettin a few options like the 17 inch wheels and xenon lights that would send that price upwards to around 58,000. A fully loaded DTS with every option goes for 60,000, SO WHAT IF A FULLY LOADED 2005 STS GOES FOR 60,000 ALSO. People complain about the price, yet they bitch at cost cutting when it shows in the car. This is a premium luxury sedan, the price will be around there. The 2005 STS picks up price wise, right where a fully loaded CTS leaves off. People act like cadillac has never done this, well they have been doing it for a few years now on the STS and DTS. For those that feel the price is too high, we have the CTS, so all the bases get covered.CTS
=
SIGMA
=
2005 STS

jerseyvette
07-19-04, 05:42 PM
every single thread you made so far has been nothing but whining about cadillac's size when in fact mulitple members over 6' has commented that the cars are big enough for them. What is your real problem with cadillac? If you like the 300c go ahead and get one.

Because I want to stay with a car that is made by American people and is American managed.

jerseyvette
07-19-04, 06:00 PM
i have a quick questions: WHY IS EVERYONE GETTIN THEIR PANTIES IN A BUNCH OVER THE PRICE?!?! :rolleyes2 Go the cadillac.com, the 2005 sts starts at 40,995. A 2004 SLS stared at 46,770 for the bottom package. Loaded the SLS came out to about 55,000, and mind you thats SLS; STS was discontinued for 2004, so we are forgettin a few options like the 17 inch wheels and xenon lights that would send that price upwards to around 58,000. A fully loaded DTS with every option goes for 60,000, SO WHAT IF A FULLY LOADED 2005 STS GOES FOR 60,000 ALSO. People complain about the price, yet they bitch at cost cutting when it shows in the car. This is a premium luxury sedan, the price will be around there. The 2005 STS picks up price wise, right where a fully loaded CTS leaves off. People act like cadillac has never done this, well they have been doing it for a few years now on the STS and DTS. For those that feel the price is too high, we have the CTS, so all the bases get covered.

To address your price issue: We all know that GM is insane on every option mark-up. Take a Navigation system on a CTS, isn't it like $3000 extra on the car's price.(the car is a opel cousin for god's sakes). You think this option costs them anywhere near this price (no way). They should consider what Saturn does: Make a product in a segment for a price and you get what you think you will be getting. Don't bait everyone at $29,000 for a CTS or $40,000 for a V6 STS when people really walk into a show room and get a V8 equipped car in 4WD for $50K.

Slick V
07-19-04, 06:41 PM
Your a moron, im done wasteing my time with you. :helpless:

jerseyvette
07-19-04, 06:56 PM
Your a moron, im done wasteing my time with you. :helpless:
Go Piss 60K away on a k Car and good luck.

gothicaleigh
07-19-04, 07:12 PM
CTS
=
SIGMA
=
2005 STS

You keep coming back to both of them being Sigma vehicles and I think this is where you are confused. Being of the same architecture does not mean they are the same cars.

They share similar frame construction and suspension. That is about as far as the similarities go. The vehicle dimensions are different and the wheelbase is different.

You could make just about anything on a Sigma platform. It's a very adaptable architecture.

gothicaleigh
07-19-04, 07:15 PM
Go Piss 60K away on a k Car and good luck.

You're not trying to compare an STS to a K car now, are you? :banghead:

gothicaleigh
07-19-04, 07:29 PM
.(the car is a opel cousin for god's sakes).

Opel shares architecture with Holden, the GTO, and the Catera.
The CTS no longer has anything to do with anything that associated the Catera to Opel. The 3.2L is the last remnant of that affiliation and will be dropped in 2005.


Don't bait everyone at $29,000 for a CTS or $40,000 for a V6 STS when people really walk into a show room and get a V8 equipped car in 4WD for $50K.

Don't bait everyone at $28,100 for a BMW 325i or $39,800 for a V6 BMW 525i when people really walk into a show room and get a V8 equipped car for $55,000 (545i base MSRP).
;)

Brett
07-19-04, 07:35 PM
You're not trying to compare an STS to a K car now, are you? :banghead:

yeah, those K cars sucked, i never could get the HUD or adaptive cruise control to work right ;)

rueben44
07-19-04, 08:37 PM
Ok people put the pipes down!!! Instead of making these assumptions that are incorrect why don't you look at the measurement of the STS wheel base and that of the Benz. Also look at the interior dimensions and tell me which one is bigger. If some had a clue they would realize that the STS is a bigger car than any other model in its class. It competes with the 5 series and E class and it is closer in size to their bigger models. I will bet those that are commenting on the STS being this or that have not even seen it in person.

rueben44
07-19-04, 08:50 PM
Ok so the Benz starts at $49000 and the STS starts at 41,000! And some of you think the STS is over priced. That is for the V6 benz at that. The V8 Cadillac starts at $48000 and that is cheaper than a base Benz with a V6. Like I said put the pipes down. Now look at these number and tell me how is it the STS is so small inside when it is bigger than the Benz.

BMW 5-series
Leg Room(front)....................41.5
Leg Room (rear).....................36.0
Head Room(front)..................37.7
Head Room(rear)...................37.9
Shoulder Room(front).............57.3
Shoulder Room(rear)...............57.2

Cadillac STS
Leg Room(front)...................42.6
Leg Room (rear)...................38.3
Head Room(front).................38.7
Head Room(rear)..................37.9
Shoulder Room(front)............58.6
Shoulder Room(rear)..............57.4

Mercedes 320 Sedan

Exterior Dimensions

Wheelbase 112.4 in/2,854 mm

Overall length 189.7 in/4,815 mm

Overall height 57.2 in/1,452 mm

Overall width 71.3 in/ 1,810 mm

Front track 61.4 in/ 1,559 mm

Rear track 61.1 in/1,552 mm

Coefficient of drag 0.27

Curb weight 3,691 lb/1,675 kg

Interior Dimensions1

Front headroom 37.4 in/951 mm

Rear headroom 37.7 in/957 mm

Front legroom 41.9 in/1,065 mm

Rear legroom 35.6 in/ 903 mm

Front shoulder Room 56.4 in/1,432 mm

Rear shoulder Room 56.1 in/1,424 mm

Cabin capacity 97.2 cu ft/2752.0 liters

Cargo capacity 15.9 cu ft/450.0 liters

gothicaleigh
07-19-04, 09:06 PM
Again:

Cadillac CTS
Leg Room (front)...................42.4
Leg Room (rear)....................36.2
Head Room (front).................38.9
Head Room (rear)..................36.9
Shoulder Room (front)............56.6
Shoulder Room (rear)..............56.2

BMW 5-series
Leg Room(front)....................41.5
Leg Room (rear).....................36.0
Head Room(front)..................37.7
Head Room(rear)...................37.9
Shoulder Room(front).............57.3
Shoulder Room(rear)...............57.2

2004 SeVille
Leg room(front).....................42.5
Leg Room(front).....................38.2
Head Room(front)...................38.2
Head Room(rear)....................38.0
Shoulder Room(front)..............59.1
Shoulder Room(rear)...............58.0

2005 STS
Leg Room(front)...................42.6
Leg Room (rear)...................38.3
Head Room(front).................38.7
Head Room(rear)..................37.9
Shoulder Room(front)............58.6
Shoulder Room(rear)..............57.4

BMW 7 series
Leg Room(front)...................41.9
Leg Room (rear)...................38.4
Head Room(front).................39.2
Head Room(rear)..................38.5
Shoulder Room(front)............59.3
Shoulder Room(rear)..............58.7

The STS looks to have very close to the interior dimensions of the largest Bimmer...

strindl
07-19-04, 09:51 PM
To address your price issue: We all know that GM is insane on every option mark-up. Take a Navigation system on a CTS, isn't it like $3000 extra on the car's price.(
.


No...it's an 1800 option, but also includes the XM satellite radio and Bose upgrades. Try buying something similiar after market at your local electronics supermarket, and you'll be close to the same price..and it won't be nearly as well integrated into the car.

ktills45
07-19-04, 09:53 PM
Your a moron, im done wasteing my time with you. :helpless:


LOL, my thoughts exactly

Vesicant
07-20-04, 12:00 AM
Ok... i made a nice dividing line on the passenger side... makes that big ol empty space occupied.

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/MrHaun/05STSInteriorRev2.jpg


Comments? I have some more things i could do to it.. but this is just a start.

majax
07-20-04, 02:33 AM
you didnt do anything to it :confused:

M STaR 013
07-20-04, 03:08 AM
ya know whats gonna be frickin awsome about the STS is the sound system! straight from the caddy site:

The STS is the first vehicle to offer the Bose Studio Surround System


Delivers true discrete 5.1 surround sound, a sound experience previously reserved only for cinemas and home theaters
15 advanced Bose speakers, the most of any prestige luxury sedan
Plays the widest variety of disc formats available on the market today
Delivers a 360 sound experience for each passenger
Integrated with infotainment system to deliver exceptional audio from DVDs. When the vehicle is in park, passengers can also enjoy DVD video on an 8-inch diagonal display, one of the largest high-resolution displays available

360 degree surround sound for EVERY passenger?! how do they do it! i wanna hear!

Jesda
07-20-04, 05:38 AM
It's probably more accurate to say the a mid-line Infiniti looks like a Cadillac, rather than the other way 'round. Nissan/Infiniti has done a very good job of copying the themes of the Evoq concept car since its introduction in 1999.

Bzzzt!

Youre referring to the slow-selling M45 (but still outsold the Lexus GS430), which is an old design that came out in Japan as a Nissan in the late 90s. It was imported to the US as a stopgap until the new M45 comes out, which has MB/Jaguar lights and a G35 rear end. Every other Infiniti looks too round to look like a Cadillac (Q45, I35, FX, G35)

-Jesda

Jesda
07-20-04, 05:54 AM
ya know whats gonna be frickin awsome about the STS is the sound system! straight from the caddy site:

The STS is the first vehicle to offer the Bose Studio Surround System


Delivers true discrete 5.1 surround sound, a sound experience previously reserved only for cinemas and home theaters
15 advanced Bose speakers, the most of any prestige luxury sedan
Plays the widest variety of disc formats available on the market today
Delivers a 360 sound experience for each passenger
Integrated with infotainment system to deliver exceptional audio from DVDs. When the vehicle is in park, passengers can also enjoy DVD video on an 8-inch diagonal display, one of the largest high-resolution displays available

360 degree surround sound for EVERY passenger?! how do they do it! i wanna hear!

8-track!

Vesicant
07-20-04, 12:14 PM
you didnt do anything to it :confused:

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/MrHaun/0407_cadillac_sts_4.jpg


vs

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/MrHaun/05STSInteriorRev2.jpg

Brett
07-20-04, 12:49 PM
damn is that subtle, took me a few minutes, but i like it.

jerseyvette
07-20-04, 12:57 PM
Your a moron, im done wasteing my time with you. :helpless:

You have any more comments? :welcome:

Caddy Man
07-20-04, 12:59 PM
i still dont see what you did :confused: did u widen the center console and dash just a little bit?

Devil_concours
07-20-04, 01:03 PM
i still dont see what you did :confused: did u widen the center console and dash just a little bit?
look at the right side of the nav screen above the wooden trim with sts.

STS 310
07-20-04, 04:53 PM
When that 2005 is about 5 years old, only one word comes to mind that kills the whole thing............DEPRECIATION.:crying:

majax
07-20-04, 05:18 PM
hey, i see what you did now and I like it! :bouncy:

gothicaleigh
07-20-04, 11:52 PM
When that 2005 is about 5 years old, only one word comes to mind that kills the whole thing............DEPRECIATION.:crying:

The Art&Science Caddys haven't been depreciating as fast as Cadillacs used to. Give it a few years at this pace and we may see the values hold as well as the Germans... (whose cars in recent years have begun to depreciate faster than they used to).

megeebee
07-21-04, 01:33 PM
The Art&Science Caddys haven't been depreciating as fast as Cadillacs used to. Give it a few years at this pace and we may see the values hold as well as the Germans... (whose cars in recent years have begun to depreciate faster than they used to).

Thank you, Gothicaleigh. I can personally atest to this. My dealer has informed me that residuals on the Art & Science Cadillacs are well above that of the older models. In fact, they're offering a "pull ahead" on my lease. That is to say, they'll forgive the balance of my current lease ( '03 CTS) if I get a new one. They want my car to sell used. (They don't want me to buy it at the end of the lease. The pre-arranged end of lease price is very low, and they could get $4-5K more for it on their lot!
Also, this situation is due in part to GM's unwillingness to OVER PRODUCE. It is very tempting for an auto maker to "strike while the iron is hot", and build gobs of a hot model. They resisted this impulse and therefore demand can remain relatively high, incentives can stay low or non-existent, and residual value stays high. Cadillac is now behaving like a luxury auto producer! This will hold the brand in good stead for the future.

M STaR 013
07-21-04, 06:30 PM
:banana: yay!

megeebee
07-21-04, 06:40 PM
Anyone else agree? Fancied up economy sized car:

......no.

RERM
07-21-04, 08:36 PM
......no.


I think you'r nuts....first, most mass producers (BMW, AUDI, MB, VW, PORSCHE, JAGUAR, FORD, etc...) share platforms.

Second, most car buyers could care less, (Lexus ES = Toyota, Acura = Honda) I don't see people complaining about those brands.

I admit the initial pictures of the new STS were not that good, now having seen better pics and color schemes on Road & Track and Car and Driver I must say it looks pretty good.

Performance wise, Car and Driver said it all...as previously quoted...

I will grant you one point, pricewise, GM would have been smart to keep the price below the competition Cadillac is coming from behind, not out of nowhere, there Lexus and Infiniti had an edge...

On page 53 of the August issue of Road & Track there are pictures of the XLR V, STS V and a CTS V Plus (the best looking car I've ever seen out of GM), this really points to fulfillment of a comeback at Cadillac. Cars I would genuinely lust after....

FACT, Cadillac did better on the J.D. Power survey than any of the above mentioned brands save Lexus.

This from someone who grew up driving and enjoying BMW's...

I still think you'r nuts!!!! ;)

Devil_concours
07-22-04, 03:26 AM
I think you'r nuts....first, most mass producers (BMW, AUDI, MB, VW, PORSCHE, JAGUAR, FORD, etc...) share platforms.
Sigma platform has been only shared between 3 cars
CTS, SRX, STS :hide:

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 04:19 PM
I think you'r nuts....first, most mass producers (BMW, AUDI, MB, VW, PORSCHE, JAGUAR, FORD, etc...) share platforms.

Second, most car buyers could care less, (Lexus ES = Toyota, Acura = Honda) I don't see people complaining about those brands.

I admit the initial pictures of the new STS were not that good, now having seen better pics and color schemes on Road & Track and Car and Driver I must say it looks pretty good.

Performance wise, Car and Driver said it all...as previously quoted...

I will grant you one point, pricewise, GM would have been smart to keep the price below the competition Cadillac is coming from behind, not out of nowhere, there Lexus and Infiniti had an edge...

On page 53 of the August issue of Road & Track there are pictures of the XLR V, STS V and a CTS V Plus (the best looking car I've ever seen out of GM), this really points to fulfillment of a comeback at Cadillac. Cars I would genuinely lust after....

FACT, Cadillac did better on the J.D. Power survey than any of the above mentioned brands save Lexus.

This from someone who grew up driving and enjoying BMW's...

I still think you'r nuts!!!! ;)

I drove the CTS-V and it is a great car for what it is designed to be. The car is compact (big plus in handling) and has INCREDIBLE power and acceleration. Hats Off to GM for makinga world class beauty.

I've been thinking a lot about the 2005 STS and in soem ways it meets several segment needs (no extra overhangs, aerodynamic, has a similarly shaped door lines as the XLR etc). The gripes I had were in size and overall prestige (in appearance, insuide room etc). I think the answer to my dilemma is that Cadillac does not want to compete in the full size touring segment anymore (cars the size of a 760LI, A8, MB S 500, Bentley, RR etc). The roominess of the aforementioned cars is my main attraction to them (since I have a need for rear seat head/leg room for clients, friends etc).

I'd like to ask an expert this question: Why would Cadillac continue to shrink the cockpit of the STS from the 1992 design to the 1998 design and now to the 2005 version? You would think that a company with a $4B R&D budget would figure that interiors are where people want improvements in space, comfort and overall experience (the new VW Phaeton really focuses on this). An example of this (although a higher end car) is the Mercedes Maybach, the rear seats are more and more first class airline style and they recline with tons of legroom. I realise that this is a chauffer driven type of car but in theory you would think GM would keep these thoughts in mind for people in the rear seats. I ask again why would GM continue to shrink the cockpit on a car witha broad base of customers to target?

I think ideal cars (which is why I really like the Chrysler 300C in design philosophy) are very aero and sleek on the outside but with maxium inhabitable cabin space on the interior. Should every car be a Maybach sized car? absolutely not. Should cars like Deville and Seville have livable rear seat areas (with ample leg and head room for several passengers) Yes. I just don't see GMs rationale in crampy interiors.

(please don't come back with the "I am 6'6" and I fit great in my Deville story" either please).

Caddy Man
07-22-04, 05:17 PM
I drove the CTS-V and it is a great car for what it is designed to be. The car is compact (big plus in handling) and has INCREDIBLE power and acceleration. Hats Off to GM for makinga world class beauty.

I've been thinking a lot about the 2005 STS and in soem ways it meets several segment needs (no extra overhangs, aerodynamic, has a similarly shaped door lines as the XLR etc). The gripes I had were in size and overall prestige (in appearance, insuide room etc). I think the answer to my dilemma is that Cadillac does not want to compete in the full size touring segment anymore (cars the size of a 760LI, A8, MB S 500, Bentley, RR etc). The roominess of the aforementioned cars is my main attraction to them (since I have a need for rear seat head/leg room for clients, friends etc).

I'd like to ask an expert this question: Why would Cadillac continue to shrink the cockpit of the STS from the 1992 design to the 1998 design and now to the 2005 version? You would think that a company with a $4B R&D budget would figure that interiors are where people want improvements in space, comfort and overall experience (the new VW Phaeton really focuses on this). An example of this (although a higher end car) is the Mercedes Maybach, the rear seats are more and more first class airline style and they recline with tons of legroom. I realise that this is a chauffer driven type of car but in theory you would think GM would keep these thoughts in mind for people in the rear seats. I ask again why would GM continue to shrink the cockpit on a car witha broad base of customers to target?

I think ideal cars (which is why I really like the Chrysler 300C in design philosophy) are very aero and sleek on the outside but with maxium inhabitable cabin space on the interior. Should every car be a Maybach sized car? absolutely not. Should cars like Deville and Seville have livable rear seat areas (with ample leg and head room for several passengers) Yes. I just don't see GMs rationale in crampy interiors.

(please don't come back with the "I am 6'6" and I fit great in my Deville story" either please).
the STS was made to be smaller in size, more of a performance sedan, it will not be as big as a 7 series or s class is, thats were teh DTS comes in. lets wait till cadillac redesigns that to critique what matches with what. The DTS is already about 7 inches longer than the STS is. Just like a 5 series will have less room than a 7. The DTS is trully cadillacs big car, and that i think will match up much better. And as far as price goes (i think soemone else made a comment) if cadillac puts the price down, it will ''cheapify'' the image, and every single person will have one. Look at teh 300c, its a great looking car, but many people dont consider it luxury since it tops at 35k, and now everyone and there mom will get one since they are so cheap, i think it was good they kept the price high, but its still compeative with bmw 5 series or mercedes E class pricing. I kno if i was able to afford a car like that, i wouldnt want every joe schmo driving on around either. (no offence to anyone) If bentley lowered thier price to 60,000, everyone will be riding in it, there is no exlucisivity left, thats one of the things that makes a Bentley and RR so great, besides for power and comfort, NO ONE HAS ONE. I kno I am giving an extreme example, but thats how i see it. I just htink the price the STS is at is competative in its category, what you people should be mad at is the price of the previous STS, fully loaded was 60k. Same with DTS, my freind even told me, that my DTS was a great car, but he would NEVER spend that much on a cadilalc, but mind you that was the previous models, before the big redesign of the company, differnt image, before better reliablity and overall this STS has many advanced features the old one didnt, its much more competative. just my 2 cents.

miscreant
07-22-04, 09:12 PM
When that 2005 is about 5 years old, only one word comes to mind that kills the whole thing............DEPRECIATION.:crying:

Up until about 2-3 years ago, the Cadillacs DID NOT depreciate like they are now. You had an aged design with rumors of new models - that spells depreciation. You now have completely new models...

miscreant
07-22-04, 09:28 PM
1) NO SIGMA car is worth 60K anywhere in the world(now or in 10 years).

What about the sigma platform begs it to be limited to a certain price??? BMW has been using MACPHERSON STRUTS for years and STILL DOES! It makes no sense. The platform does not define the price. The Sigma platform has been heralded as one of the best platforms in the world.



2) The New STS (Which I have inspected closely in person here in NJ) is super-small looking and the interior is essentially a changed version of what you see in the CTS. Why 60K!!???!!! I just do not see where the rationale is for charging so much for the car.

I can't believe that you have even seen the car if you say it looks like a CTS inside. It looks NOTHING like a CTS. I'm surprised since it's supposed to be an S" class model like the SRX, but the SRX looks like the CTS inside, the STS does NOT.

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 10:34 PM
the STS was made to be smaller in size, more of a performance sedan, it will not be as big as a 7 series or s class is, thats were teh DTS comes in......

All great points and I would agree with you if the DTS actually had a competitively spacious interior with cars such as the S500. Look at these two phots from a 2003 DTS rear seat and a 2001 rear S500 seat area. Notice how crammed the DTS is compared to how the S500s rear area is set back towards the trunk with more attention and consideration for occupants (I guess in Germany it is insuoltive to make rear quarters crammed for wealthy people). Here those rules/ideals must not apply:

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 10:38 PM
Now here is the STS interior. imagine being stuck back here for a 4 hour car ride if you were above 6' tall..life would stink!

Devil_concours
07-22-04, 10:49 PM
Interior Dimensions (deville) (s500)
Head Room (front) (in.) 39.1 37.6
Head Room (rear) (in.) 38.4 38.4
Hiproom (front) (in.) 56.4 Not Listed
Hiproom (rear) (in.) 56.7 Not Listed
Leg Room (front) (in.) 42.4 41.3
Leg Room (rear) (in.) 43.2 40.3
Shoulder Room (front) (in.) 60.4 59.2
Shoulder Room (rear) (in.) 60.1 58.3
Cargo Volume (mfr.) (cu. ft.) 19.1 15.4
:hmm: According to my math deville has far more room than s500 in just about every category. :helpless:

miscreant
07-22-04, 10:52 PM
Now here is the STS interior. imagine being stuck back here for a 4 hour car ride if you were above 6' tall..life would stink!
What I notice is that the DTS seats are all the way back and tilted back, as well as the STS's. But the S500 seats are forward. I have BEEN IN an S500, it's not any more roomy than a DTS.

jerseyvette
07-22-04, 10:56 PM
Interior Dimensions (deville) (s500)
Head Room (front) (in.) 39.1 37.6
Head Room (rear) (in.) 38.4 38.4
Hiproom (front) (in.) 56.4 Not Listed
Hiproom (rear) (in.) 56.7 Not Listed
Leg Room (front) (in.) 42.4 41.3
Leg Room (rear) (in.) 43.2 40.3
Shoulder Room (front) (in.) 60.4 59.2
Shoulder Room (rear) (in.) 60.1 58.3
Cargo Volume (mfr.) (cu. ft.) 19.1 15.4
:hmm: According to my math deville has far more room than s500 in just about every category. :helpless:

I never busted on the shape of the exterior of teh Deville..the car is awesome looking. Just too small in headroom and front knee room.. :worship:

Devil_concours
07-22-04, 11:00 PM
I never busted on the shape of the exterior of teh Deville..the car is awesome looking. Just too small in headroom and front knee room.. :worship:
i guess you're little TOO TALL for s class since it has less room in the front than the deville. And i didn't say anything about the exterior. Look at the numbers and title and post again.

miscreant
07-22-04, 11:16 PM
...With ALL available options, tops out mid 60K. This is a versatile priced car, starting in the low 40s and ending in the mid 60s...

The STS in many pictures looks small, and that's because it's TALL. It's taller than a current deville.

The STS: 4" longer wheel base, 7" longer overall, 1.3" wider, and .5" taller.

Let me repeat this:

The STS is 4" longer wheel base, 7" longer overall, 1.3" wider, and .5" taller than the E500.

wow1
07-22-04, 11:53 PM
That's the secret that people shopping on the internet miss. A caddy dealer can give you up to a 15% discount after a car has been introduced for about six weeks. Try to find that at one of "silver paint" dealerships.

gothicaleigh
07-23-04, 12:00 AM
Be careful... Caddy likes to advertise in 'silver paint' now too...

Also, I would like to see where you can get a 15% discount on a CTS-V or an XLR...
Mmm... CTS-Vs for $42k... XLRs for below $60k... :) Introduce me to your dealer. :D

miscreant
07-23-04, 03:16 AM
That's the secret that people shopping on the internet miss. A caddy dealer can give you up to a 15% discount after a car has been introduced for about six weeks. Try to find that at one of "silver paint" dealerships.

That's not true of the newest designed cars. It was two years before the Escalades really got discounted, the CTS still isn't heavily discounted (and still going strong), the SRX even while not selling as great as Cadillac had hoped, is still not heavily discounted. Then throw the CTS-V and XLR into the mix :D

b4z
07-23-04, 08:49 AM
jerseyvette & devil_concours,

Measurements don't tell the whole story on legroom.
The current STS/Seville and Deville simply do not have the legroom/kneeroom of the previous models.
Knee bolsters are closer than they have ever been and I hardly fit in either car much less get comfortable.

I drive a SRX because of this, and because of it's 41" of rear legroom!

Gm is the only company I know that can extend the wheelbase of it's cars and have LESS legroom than the previous model.

Hopefull the STS will have the CTS/SRX legroom and some additional rear legroom, although mag tests have said rear legroom is somewhat lacking.

Even though the wheelbase is 3" more than the CTS.

Devil_concours
07-23-04, 10:38 AM
jerseyvette & devil_concours,

Measurements don't tell the whole story on legroom.
The current STS/Seville and Deville simply do not have the legroom/kneeroom of the previous models.
Knee bolsters are closer than they have ever been and I hardly fit in either car much less get comfortable.

I drive a SRX because of this, and because of it's 41" of rear legroom!

Gm is the only company I know that can extend the wheelbase of it's cars and have LESS legroom than the previous model.

Hopefull the STS will have the CTS/SRX legroom and some additional rear legroom, although mag tests have said rear legroom is somewhat lacking.

Even though the wheelbase is 3" more than the CTS.

When i first saw the cts interior i thought to myself wtf are they thinking. It looked like i will be able to sit in them barely. I then sat in one and realized that looks are deceiving. I fit in one comfortably and i still had room left.(i'm ONLY 6'2")

Brett
07-23-04, 11:50 AM
i drove an s500 for a couple days about 9 months ago. the rear seat and front seat were NOT as roomy as a DTS. In fact i found the E500 to have more front legroom than the S.

Also the S500 base price is ~85k, so for 40k higher base price than a Deville I would expect a little more legroom, even though i dont believe you get it

jerseyvette
07-23-04, 03:35 PM
When i first saw the cts interior i thought to myself wtf are they thinking. It looked like i will be able to sit in them barely. I then sat in one and realized that looks are deceiving. I fit in one comfortably and i still had room left.(i'm ONLY 6'2")
I overall love the CTS and it is positioned perfectly. The V Series is really a great car as well and I would buy one if I did not ahve so much highway and stop and go driving to do for work.

Do you know if there are any spy pics of the 2006 DTS? What platform will it share?

Have a great day! :)

jerseyvette
07-23-04, 03:39 PM
jerseyvette & devil_concours,

Measurements don't tell the whole story on legroom.
The current STS/Seville and Deville simply do not have the legroom/kneeroom of the previous models.
Knee bolsters are closer than they have ever been and I hardly fit in either car much less get comfortable.

I drive a SRX because of this, and because of it's 41" of rear legroom!

Gm is the only company I know that can extend the wheelbase of it's cars and have LESS legroom than the previous model.

Hopefull the STS will have the CTS/SRX legroom and some additional rear legroom, although mag tests have said rear legroom is somewhat lacking.

Even though the wheelbase is 3" more than the CTS.Let's have a party because you and I are in 100% agreement. Regardless of what dealers that bash my posts are saying. AMEN I say AMEN!

Devil_concours
07-26-04, 07:48 AM
I overall love the CTS and it is positioned perfectly. The V Series is really a great car as well and I would buy one if I did not ahve so much highway and stop and go driving to do for work.

Do you know if there are any spy pics of the 2006 DTS? What platform will it share?

Have a great day! :)

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7350&sid=178&n=158


Even under this heavy camouflage, one can see - inside and out - that the 2006 DeVille will borrow styling cues from the Cadillac Sixteen concept car.

Caddy Man
07-26-04, 11:46 AM
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7350&sid=178&n=158
looks as if it will have the long and narrow headlights, like the Sixteen does, probybaly a similiar grill...but the entire side of the car (A,B,C pillars, doors) is EXACTLY THE SAME as the current deville. Looks like interior and front and rear are getting the design change.

gothicaleigh
07-26-04, 11:56 AM
The new DeVille isn't going to be a dramatic change from the current DeVille. That happens in 2008 when it gets the Sigma treatment like the other Caddys. The upcoming model is basically the same car we have had for years with a new 'skin'.

Also, the inside has changed, but it is far removed from the beautiful interior of the Sixteen...
The new front is obviously Sixteen-influenced though. That is evident even through the camo-bra.

megeebee
07-26-04, 01:03 PM
I'm glad I dropped in this morning. I thought that that the Deville was staying FWD more or less permanently, looks like I'm wrong. The doors and quarter panels appear to be unchanged, and I was hoping for a more interesting rocker panel, but if the same designers that have been doing the newer Cadillacs worked on this Deville it will be very succesful. And that instument panel ! Gorgeous.

gothicaleigh
07-27-04, 11:53 PM
The new DeVille isn't going to be a dramatic change from the current DeVille. That happens in 2008 when it gets the Sigma treatment like the other Caddys. The upcoming model is basically the same car we have had for years with a new 'skin'.

Also, the inside has changed, but it is far removed from the beautiful interior of the Sixteen...
The new front is obviously Sixteen-influenced though. That is evident even through the camo-bra.

You know, the more I look at those pics of the upcoming DeVille, the more it reminds me of a current generation TownCar... :annoyed:


I thought that that the Deville was staying FWD more or less permanently, looks like I'm wrong.

The DeVille that you see there in the spy photos is still FWD. The Sigma/RWD replacement won't be until 2008. You still have a while to wait...