: How would ya like this to happen to you?



Sandy
05-15-09, 10:23 AM
You open a small Dodge dealership, in 1983. The dealership grows, and in 1993 you are able to add Chrysler. You have 20 years left on the mortgage to own your building. You are NOT on some mega expensive highway, nor do you stock 300 cars in stock. You privately own your franchise. All of the money invested into it is private funds, 90% of YOUR money. There is no underworld money in your store. Now, it's 2006 and you are doing 45-55 cars a month, pretty steady, except maybe for December.
You have a decent reputation in town, and many repeat customers. You have given to every chairity to come thru your doors, never turning anoyone away.
Your kid is in college. It's $25,000 @ year. Yesterday, you get a letter from Mother Mopar.... you ar now outta business !! Your inventory will be picked up by transporters. thank you for year s of service. Good Bye.

I never ever though (after working as a salesman, selling Dodge cars/trucks since 1968, until I left the business in 1985) that I would say this, but....I say it from the heart, and in all kindness and righteous respected to the power brokers at Mother Mopar...
V
V
V
V
V
>>>>>> F. U. Mother Mopar <<<< You are now where you belong, with FIAT. Ha ha ha ha your with Fiat ! Even Renault would not have you !!! Ha Ha Ha. You put 800 dealers outta busniess yesterday. 800 families will suffer. 800 families have no income 800 familes are still repaying loans - loans to buy their buildings in which they sold YOUR products. 800 familes paying off $$$$$ still owed to you for your franchise.

You have ALWAYS treated your dealers like warmed up, left over dog food and your dealers have always treated their salesmen like garbage and with all this distain for one & other, you really expected to be successful ? HOW?



LIKE your cars.....you have NO SOUL. Happy Fiating !
:thumbsup:I feel ALOT better now!:thumbsup:

Submariner409
05-15-09, 10:37 AM
Merge this with the Richmond Cadillac dealer question thread close by and you'll wonder how the U.S. car businesses will survive. Some of us remember the old "Made in Occupied Japan" logo on absolute postwar junk. Welcome to "Made in The People's Republic of China by your loving GM employees".

Ranger
05-15-09, 10:39 AM
In the end, it's a whole lot more than 800 families. And now GM follows suit. :nono:

VforMe
05-15-09, 10:55 AM
Yesterday, you get a letter from Mother Mopar.... you ar now outta business !! Your inventory will be picked up by transporters. thank you for year s of service. Good Bye.



I heard on the news today that its even worse than that. Chrysler is sticking the dealers with all the inventory so they will have to find a way to sell it all at auction. What a bunch of *******s.:nono:

Ranger
05-15-09, 11:06 AM
That is what I heard as well. Maybe they are picking up cars that the dealer has not payed for yet. I forget the term, but I know they can get them on credit for a month or so.

firstimecaddi
05-15-09, 01:28 PM
@ Ranger ..................................... consignment

dkozloski
05-15-09, 02:26 PM
The dealers need to sell as many cars as they can at give away prices, pocket the money, and head for Costa Rica.

RightTurn
05-15-09, 04:50 PM
Here's the map of closing dealerships. Choose your state... http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/chryslerdealerclosings/TX.html

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-15-09, 08:30 PM
I heard that all the new cars that the closed Chrysler dealers have in their inventory are being sent to auctions. So for other dealers, it's time to get a brand new Mopar product for DIRT CHEAP!

It really hit home when I saw that a dealer in a small town in Minnesota (BOE Chrysler in West Concord MN with a Population of 763) that I cold-called on for work on Tuesday is being closed by Chrysler.

Here's the article from the Minneapolis paper:

18 Chrysler dealers to close here
DEE DePASS, Star Tribune

The gas runs out next month for 18 Minnesota Chrysler dealerships, most in outstate Minnesota, that are among 789 dealerships nationwide that the automaker says it must close to survive.

Chrysler submitted a 40-page list of pending closures to a bankruptcy court judge Thursday in response to government demands it dramatically shrink. Chrysler officials said many dealers on the list had either the wrong location, too few sales or competed so fiercely against each other that they dragged down prices.

The closures, scheduled to occur by June 9, represent 25 percent of Chrysler's roughly 3,200 dealers nationwide. Economists estimate 42,000 dealership jobs could be lost in the closings, not counting thousands of related jobs at suppliers and ancillary businesses that depend on spending by dealership employees.

The closings in Minnesota could eliminate about 1,000 dealership jobs.

Scott Lambert, spokesman for the Minnesota Auto Dealers Association, said his members are dumbfounded that their independent dealerships are being targeted in cost-cutting efforts.

"We are not the problem," Lambert said. "Our dealers own their own property, buy their own cars, and they pay for their own signs. So we are a cost-free distribution system," he said. "This is being driven by a bunch of Wall Street bankers."

Dealers can appeal Chrysler's decision. The targeted businesses could still try to stay open selling used vehicles or those made by other manufacturers.

Most of the Minnesota dealers Chrysler targeted are small operations in rural areas, or they are among those that don't sell the company's three brands -- Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep -- under one roof. Those listed in or near the Twin Cities include Stillwater Motor Co. and Fury Dodge Chrysler in Lake Elmo.

Fury Dodge General Manager Jim Leonard said he was meeting with employees Thursday and planned to "see what will happen" now that Chrysler has made its decision public. Fury Motors, one of the largest Chrysler dealers in the state, also operates a large store in South St. Paul, which won't be affected.

Others identified for closure include: BOE Chrysler Center in West Concord, Factor Motors in Le Center, Mason Motors in Excelsior, Nereson Automotive Jeep in Detroit Lakes, Marchant Motors in Spring Valley, North Star Garage in Milaca, Pen Motors Inc./Miller Hill Chrysler Jeep in Duluth and Paul Busch Auto in Wabasha.

Two stores owned by Brad Skytta are on the list: Sonju Two Harbors and Iron Trail Chrysler in Virginia. Also listed are Salem Motors in Crookston, Salmon Motors in Tracy, Scott-Preusse Inc. in Redwood Falls, Scholtes Auto World in Worthington and Wally's Auto Service in Orr.

Chrysler also listed the already-closed Denny Hecker Chrysler Dodge Jeep operation in Pine City.

Although Chrysler included Walser Bloomington Motors in Hopkins on the list, owner Paul Walser said it will remain open and "it will be business as usual." Walser said his store made the list only because Chrysler assigned it two dealership codes after he bought the Hopkins operation from David Luther awhile back. Chrysler is merely dropping one of the codes.

Seventeen Wisconsin dealerships made the list, including Chilson Inc. in Eau Claire, Darrow Automotive in Menomonee Falls and Johnson Motors in St. Croix Falls.

According to Chrysler's bankruptcy filing Thursday, about 2,392 Chrysler, Jeep or Dodge dealers are expected to stay on with Chrysler once it merges with Fiat to form a new company in a plan that is subject to court approval.

Walser, who is one of Minnesota's largest auto dealers, said he sympathizes with dealers that must close. But he added that Chrysler's list is "not as deep as feared. So there is less damage here than a lot of people expected."

Chrysler dealers aren't the only ones facing uncertainty.

General Motors is expected to announce, possibly as soon as today, that 2,600 of its 6,200 dealerships will be targeted for closure. GM's list may not be made public, however, as it's not in bankruptcy court, and publicly releasing the list outside a court proceeding could hurt dealers' chances of winding down in an orderly manner.

Hundreds of dealers and their related professional organizations showed up in Washington, D.C., this week to protest the pending closures.

"A rapid cut of dealers is a bad idea," said John McEleney, chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association. "This would have adverse effects on the auto industry and hurt an already struggling U.S. economy," McEleney said. Taken together, the pending dealership closures by GM and Chrysler could result in as many as 200,000 Americans losing their jobs, he said.

Some dealerships, such as those owned by the Dondelinger family, anticipated that they might be targeted for closure. The Dondelingers announced last month that they would voluntarily shut their General Motors franchise operations in Little Falls, Pine River and Wadena.

But many other Minnesota auto dealers cling to hope that they will be spared.

"It will be devastating," for those targeted, said Paul Rubin, who owns GM franchises in Belle Plaine and White Bear Lake. "We buy our own real estate. But if overnight they say you have no car dealership ... then you have no cars to sell and you will default on your property because you can't pay your $80,000 monthly payment," Rubin said. "It's a scary proposition."

Rubin said he expects GM first to "select the low-hanging fruit," closing those 500 dealers who sell only one to five new cars a month. Then it will probably lose another 500 when it shuts or sells its Saab, Hummer and Saturn brands. Another 500 owners will probably quit their franchises, he said.

"They will want to knock out another 1,000 sometime in the next year and a half," Rubin added. "I don't really think they will send a letter out and cancel them immediately. But they may send a letter that says that when the contract is up in 2010, we don't intend to offer you another contract."

GM says the government, which fronted the automaker billions in bailout money, wants severe cost cuts.

"The government requires that we be a viable entity even in this market, which is the worst that the automakers have seen since World War II. Yet they say you have to be profitable," said GM spokesman Peter Ternes. "That means that everything has to be downsized to that new model. And that means you can't have too many plants, or too many brands."

Dee DePass • 612-673-7725

Night Wolf
05-15-09, 08:44 PM
:(

The local Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer, a rather large one at that, closed. One day the lot was full of cars, then gone the next. Now just weeks/a month later, grass/weeds are growing up thru the blacktop.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-15-09, 08:50 PM
Interesting. Did you do any research as to why? I wonder if maybe they were really good at pissing off/dissatisfying customers? That's another big reason why dealers close.

Jesda
05-15-09, 08:57 PM
Chrysler built garbage and people stopped buying it. Not shocked.

Unfortunately, the CNN site says my preferred dealer, Reuther Chrysler-Jeep, is closing. That family-owned dealer also owns a Ford lot, so they'll stay in business even without Chrysler.

Unfortunately, this place will remain in business:
http://www.q45.org/cpg/albums/wpw-20090325/SSPX0859.jpg

RightTurn
05-15-09, 09:18 PM
:(

The local Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer, a rather large one at that, closed. One day the lot was full of cars, then gone the next. Now just weeks/a month later, grass/weeds are growing up thru the blacktop.


Interesting. Did you do any research as to why? I wonder if maybe they were really good at pissing off/dissatisfying customers? That's another big reason why dealers close.

Probably the same reason that Lawrence Marshall Chevrolet closed recently; they were a HUGE dealership with hundreds of vehicles in stock. Unfortunately, they depended on high-volume sales and those are nonexistent anymore.

Night Wolf
05-15-09, 09:25 PM
Interesting. Did you do any research as to why? I wonder if maybe they were really good at pissing off/dissatisfying customers? That's another big reason why dealers close.

No idea why. I only stopped there a few times to look at some cars (when they were closed, to avoid salesmen), then I test drove a Solstice GXP there (hence the BMW - fulfill the role, but [much] cheaper) and finally another time to see if they could order Isuzu parts, since GM owned Isuzu at the time, the answer to that was a no.

I guess their website is still up:

http://www.eddiewiggins.gmpsdealer.com/

As far as I know, they haven't moved to another location either.

They had a whole bunch of new G8's there too.

Looks like all 3 of the local Chrysler (Jeep/Dodge) dealers are sticking around some.

I've lived here 2 years now, I've been meaning to get a picture of the local Chrysler dealers sign, for Sandy.... tho maybe he will feel different about it now.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-15-09, 09:34 PM
As a 22 year old male, I've usually had better luck with small, family owned dealers. They're usually not as pushy to get the sale done. There are exceptions to the case, but my two worst dealership experiences both happened at larger dealers.

gdwriter
05-15-09, 09:51 PM
Sandy, I don't blame you one bit for how you feel. Despite the bad rap car dealers and car salesman get — and no doubt some deserve it — we also know there are people like you and Tony and Ewill3 who do (or did) a good job for your customers.

The dealership where I bought Sabrina is a small, family-owned Cadillac/Buick/Pontiac/GM dealership in a small town that's been around since 1940. I hope they're not one to get the axe.

AMGoff
05-15-09, 09:59 PM
Not really getting the outrage here whatsoever... I've always been a Mopar-fan, I've owned my fair share of their products over the years, and I'm saddened by their current state of affairs, but again... What's the point of this outrage?

Can we say... "blind overreaction?"

Yes, it is a shame for these 800-dealers... but hello.... it's called business - there's always risk involved and one should never, ever get involved in business and put their entire life on the line if they're somehow incapable of realizing that. No one put a gun to their head and made them open up a dealership and no one ever guaranteed them success through perpetuity.

It's no secret that the market is over-saturated with domestic dealers and has been for quite some time - within about 15 miles of me, there's something like 5-6 Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealers... double that radius and there's three times as many. So again... why the outrage?

Oh wait... Here's an alternative - Let's have Chrysler keep those 800 dealers just so to not hurt anyone's feelings or anything and then 12-18 months from now, we can have them send out a letter to all 3200 dealers saying that the company is ceasing to exist altogether... Would that be a better outcome?

Either way, just because Chrysler is terminating their licensing/franchise agreements with these dealers, doesn't mean they have to go out of business completely... If they were smart, they wouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket to begin with, but even then they can always try to become a franchisee of another manufacturer... Especially if they pride themselves on their service and status within the community. Then again, if they're getting axed it's probably because they already have pretty low volume and/or their area is especially over-saturated relatively speaking.

With that said... I realize there are a lot of emotions here Sandy, but there's absolutely no reason to let them get the best of you or to somehow take this personally... It's just ridiculous. There's no need for such outrage... Nor do I quite understand your sentiments with regard to Fiat - which again is kind of ridiculous as it's shaping up to have much more potential than that ill-fated cluster-fck with Diamler. Unless you're using some outdated, decades old impression of Fiat, the truth is that they're much, much better these days than they were years ago. They sell a lot of cars and decent ones at that... Especially the ones which Chrysler needs to take advantage of - that being small, efficient cars. Even if they were still plagued by the problems of years' past... It's not like they could be any worse than say... a K-car.

If nothing else... Were you to insist on not taking in the entire situation by realizing it's 2009 and not 1969, in lieu of overreacting... Then why only such outrage towards Chrysler? GM is not renewing contracts with hundreds more dealers that Chrysler... Where's the outrage there?

Or could it just be that you have much more of an emotional connection with Chrysler than you do with GM....

gdwriter
05-15-09, 10:03 PM
To me, it's not so much the culling of dealers, which is undoubtedly necessary. It's the cold, clinical way it's being carried out. Yeah, that's business, but it's still a shabby way to treat people.

Jesda
05-15-09, 10:40 PM
Closing dealerships in a polite way cost GM $1 billion when Oldsmobile was phased out.

Sandy
05-16-09, 02:08 PM
NightWolf

What is different about that dealer's sign that you mention back a few in this topic? Does it have IMPERIAL on it ?????
Yes.....For sure, I have a HUGE attachment to MOPAR. I sold (at one time, or another) all of their brands. I started with MOPAR, because GM & Ford would not hire me because I had no experience. So, F-mm, and I stayed with the one that gave me the break. It was 1968. In 1973 I left to open my own used car lot. I was under capitalized and then the gas crunch and I closed up. Went back to Imperial-Chrysler-Plymouth after 4 years with Dodge. In 1975 I switched to Dodge/Dodge Truck AND I-C-P store. They were a rip 'n tear (R&T) house where we were made to double-rape each customer. Not my bag, having every person I sold, hate me, so I left to go to an Oldsmobile dealer. a SLEEPY old fashioned place, I was told not to submit any deal to the manager, UNLESS it showed $1,000 profit. Needles to say, I left there pretty fast. Back to I-C-P- (a different dealer) that seemed to have brains in their head. I stayed with them until 1985 or 1986. The owned passed away away and the widow sold all the land to McDonalds to make a McDonalds.
I then hooked up with THE Dodge dealer in my home town and stayed there until I retired, in 2004.

My immediate family and also extended family ALL bought and drove Imperials, all through the 60s & 70s. They were all either Drs. - Lawyers or Judges. I was the black-sheep, but I bought Imps, as well, having a 1968, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1982, Then I switched to Cadillac, with my 1993 Sixty Special. My employer never saw my 11 year old Caddy - which stayed home as I drove a used car off the lot to go back 'n forth to work.
Over the years in the fifties my parents made ALOT of money with Chrysler Stock, so, they too were very Chrylser Corp. fond. My late Mom made Thanksgiving every single year for all the family extended and further extended. We usually had 6 to 9 Imperials in the driveway and another 3-5 on the street. I sold 90% of them.

I trust that answers your remarks.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-16-09, 07:10 PM
I'd LOVE to have been able to buy a car from you, Sandy. You seem like the perfect salesman.

Night Wolf
05-16-09, 11:09 PM
Nah, not Imperial... but it is Plymouth, I'll try to get a picture of it tomorrow.

Sandy
05-16-09, 11:55 PM
Yes, I Love Caddies, I was pretty good. You've gotta make a friend of the buyer, and after the sale, NEVER EVER loose contact, unless they die or move far away. I sent Christmas & Hanukkah cards, if it was a credit deal, I'd look up their B'day & send them a B-Day card. Istarted ever day, doing this. But....I could only work for a decent boss who treated me fairly.
95% of the bad rape 'n kill salesmen are really NOT that way! they are forced to be that way by people you will never ever see ! I refused to work for or with these animals.
There are many good people, many honest salesmen out there, but the lousey MEDIA only plays up the crook image.

These big highway hoodlum-houses (we call the "3"H"s) are what Mother-Mopar has left alone, because they produce sales, and order up 300 cars at a time (keeps factory buzzing).
They really do not want their buyers raped.....but they know that the big-boyzz highways frontage, mega adveertising $$$$ (frequent underworld $$$$ poured in) are what keeps the UAW (Unlawful @$$ wipes) happy.
So....tongue in cheek, be damned what the buyers experience, move da metal !!!

Nope. I worked small(er) stores, and was honest 90% of the time.
Note:
ALOT of buyers are LIARS!! Since we worked 60++ hours a week, most salesmen's friends are OTHER car salesmen!! I had ALOT of friends.
A customer comes in with one of my friends busniess card and I look and it's my buddy's card. Customer claims he could buy stock # 44 for X amount of dollars.

I exccuse myslf and go upstairs (where billing was done) & I call my friend, and ask did you let out a couple, he American...She Asian on a Fury for X- Amount, cause I got them right now, and you are letting 'em out at $535 under invoice?
My friend checks and tells me that is what they offered and my friend told them "No Way"! ((Thusly the salesmen's term of "Buyers are Liars" ~ ))

I wrote the deal and took my firend out to dinner, 'cause we were ICP & Dodge and he was ICP w/out Dodge and he sent me Truck business. So....see, the left hand washes the right hand & they both wash the face, in life.

Talamant3z
05-17-09, 01:12 AM
try putting your self through college no parents help

Sandy
05-17-09, 06:50 PM
expand. I do not understand what you are saying, Talmant3z

Jesda
05-17-09, 07:22 PM
try putting your self through college no parents help

Not that hard. Just pile on the loans.

MauiV
05-17-09, 07:33 PM
Other than the LX platforms and the Jeep badge (which would be snapped up by someone) the Chrysler Corp just doesnt have anything worth saving. With Duramax and Powerstroke doing so well even those ugly Dodge trucks with a Cummins are no longer even appealing.

US Automakers now see that losing a whole generation of car buyers by building shitty cars and providing shitty service isnt the best business model.

What amazes me is how Ford has its head above water while building some of the ugliest least desirable cars on the road.

77CDV
05-17-09, 11:25 PM
Ford is proving that it's better to be lucky than good.

Jesda
05-17-09, 11:44 PM
The Fusion might not as be as nice as the Malibu, but its plenty reliable, good on gas, and good to look at. The Focus is old but far more modern and distinctive than the Cobalt.

The F150 has generally been very good and the current Mustang is a pretty darn good sporty car for the price. I'd say its more than just luck at Ford -- they make a few very good mass market cars and trucks.

Lincoln on the other hand...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-18-09, 12:22 AM
I personally prefer the Fusion to the Malibu, atleast the 2010 models. The Malibu is great, but I've seen enough of those when I worked at Chev.

Sandy
05-18-09, 08:34 PM
Lincoln on the other hand....

Saturday, go get yourself a demo-drive in a new MKS !!

MauiV
05-18-09, 10:36 PM
MKS is HUGE and not available with 400+hp. Im good with what I own.

IMO Lincoln made a HUGE mistake not offering the LS with the 400hp SC powerplant in the Jag S-type R. I would more than likely be in it now instead of the V. I am on the Ford A plan and live in a town with 2 huge Ford plants but still dont drive one. Maybe someday they will make something worth owning but as of right now, blehhhhhhhhhh

Destroyer
05-18-09, 11:58 PM
Ford is proving that it's better to be lucky than good.Ford owners are very loyal to the brand. I own 2 Ford products and I'm not loyal to Ford or any brand for that matter but I have to admit that Ford, if nothing else, builds more reliable cars than GM or Chrysler (I own a Chrysler too). Build quality is comparable but a notch higher than GM and a couple notches higher than Chrysler. Reliability-wise the Fords are better than GM or Chrysler.

hueterm
05-19-09, 12:08 AM
Why does Chrysler or GM have to close dealers? I can see Pontiac onlys, obviously -- but let the free market work. In some cases, the small independent dealer may survive, or the huge over-leveraged conglomerate may fail. It's going to depend on how the business is run, and the individual market.

This unholy trinity of car mfg., UAW, and Maobama does not a competitive market make....

Jesda
05-19-09, 04:02 AM
I've never been wronged by a Ford product and had a strong 'like' for the ones I've had, but most of the time I've preferred Honda, Nissan, or GM.

Aron9000
05-19-09, 04:35 AM
With few a few exceptions, I have never been impressed with Ford from a design or engineering standpoint. GM V8's generally make more power, get better mileage, and have more low end torque. Ford makes bland, passably engineered(far from great), fairly relaible products. I see them as the US equivilent of Toyota, bland, boring, well built, and afraid to take risks or invest the money into a superbly engineered product.


Chrysler is total hit or miss in my book. For every great product(LX sedans, Dodge trucks, Jeep Wrangler, Benz designed commerical vans) they put out three FWD based turds. I swear that company hasn't produced a single high quality, reliable FWD product in its life.


As far as the dealership thing goes, I think dealerships should be axed based on their customer service. If there is some small dealership in podunktown that sells 250 cars a year, but makes money and has great service, they should stay around. Axe the dealerships that **** customers and piss people off, even if they move 1,000 cars a year. That little dealership will asorb the big dealership's volume, and they don't have to have a huge lot if you ship them cars more often. They might need a bigger shop/more service bays, but if they double/triple their sales then they can probably afford to expand.

MauiV
05-19-09, 04:59 AM
One of the Chevy dealers in Lex that is rumored to be on the blocks is being drug through the mud on a lot of boards lately. A customer ordered a 09 Camaro SS2. The car arrived but the dealer would not sell it to her for the previous agreed upon sticker price and now they have added an additional $10k dealer markup to the car. Understandably she is LIVID and many local people I know hope that this is one dealer that gets the axe.

Vrocks
05-19-09, 10:50 AM
From my understanding; dealers that have been told they're being shut down can still fight - the manufacturer has to prove that they didn't indiscriminately shut you down i.e. did they keep a weaker store open, and if so, why?

I know that's definitely the case with GM ,when they made it clear that they're basing their decisions on key businsess factors i.e. CSI, Capitalization, profitability, sales volume, location potential and the overall facility. Things that don't matter are sentimental reasons i.e. "we've been here for 90 years" doesn't matter, if you're not beating the competition.

The only key issue to me is whether the store(s) in question have the will or $$$ to really fight back. They know where they stand... so if they have a case (which will be based on numbers and geography), it shouldn't be a difficult one to explain to the judge.

gdwriter
05-19-09, 04:45 PM
With few a few exceptions, I have never been impressed with Ford from a design or engineering standpoint. GM V8's generally make more power, get better mileage, and have more low end torque. Ford makes bland, passably engineered(far from great), fairly relaible products. I see them as the US equivilent of Toyota, bland, boring, well built, and afraid to take risks or invest the money into a superbly engineered product.

Chrysler is total hit or miss in my book. For every great product(LX sedans, Dodge trucks, Jeep Wrangler, Benz designed commerical vans) they put out three FWD based turds. I swear that company hasn't produced a single high quality, reliable FWD product in its life.I've never been impressed with Ford engines; their 4-cylinder and V6 engines always felt thrashy. GM finally has a competitive 4-cylinder, and their 3.6 V6 is world-class. The Chevy small-block is an absolute legend; even the current Corvette engine can trace its roots back to the 265 V8 from 1955. The Oldsmobile Rocket and Buick Nailhead are also legendary, and the 3800 V6 has been the B-52 of engines, refined and updated over the years and delivers reliable service.

Chrysler's current product lineup, excepting those already mentioned, are abyssmal, a huge step backward. A 95 Cirrus or Stratus is a better car than the current Sebring and Avenger. Hell, an 80s-era K-car might even be better. At least those cars were reasonably competitive. The current models might as well be Communist-era Trabants.

It's also been my experience that GM cars hold up better over the long-run. My 257,000 miles '91 DeVille is a great example. Betty has 182,000 miles, and while I rebuilt the engine in 2000 at 126,000 miles, she's very solid and reliable.

My parents have been driving GM cars since 1966 a '64 Impala, '70 Bel Air wagon, '84 Celebrity wagon, '81 Skylark, '92 Century, '98 Blazer, '00 Century and '07 HHR have all been pretty reliable and have held up well over time. The '64 had 150,000 miles on it when it was sold in 1984, the '70 also racked up more than 100,000 miles, and I think my mother's current Buick has well over 100,000 miles.

I still see lots of DeVilles like mine on the road. Most Chryslers that are 10 years old or older look thrashed and worn out. While that's also attributable to owner maintenance, the number of POS Chrysler products I see does not speak well for the brand.

hueterm
05-19-09, 11:43 PM
My parents' '99 300M has sat outside now for 10 years and has 100000 miles. The paint itself still looks new, but some of the black trim has worn off. The interior is so so -- no dash cracking, but outboard drivers seat bolster has cracked some.

I have a feeling that if I still had my '99 GTP, that it would be in better condition.

That's not to say that I don't like the 300M -- it's probably the only Chrysler I'd consider buying at this point (300M Special, late model, low miles) -- I like it better than the 300C (aka poor man's Bentley).

Aron9000
05-20-09, 01:29 PM
The Chevy small-block is an absolute legend; even the current Corvette engine can trace its roots back to the 265 V8 from 1955.

That is not true. The LSx family of engines was a clean slate design that first premiered in the 1997 Corvette, then in 1998 in the fbody. 1999 saw a smaller displacement version go into the trucks. All of the GM V8's made past 2003 (except the Northstar) use the LSx family archetecture and share many interchangabile parts.

The only thing the new LSx V8's share with the old SBC is bore spacing, absolutely NO parts are interchangable.

V-Eight
05-20-09, 02:02 PM
My parents' '99 300M has sat outside now for 10 years and has 100000 miles. The paint itself still looks new, but some of the black trim has worn off. The interior is so so -- no dash cracking, but outboard drivers seat bolster has cracked some.

I have a feeling that if I still had my '99 GTP, that it would be in better condition.

That's not to say that I don't like the 300M -- it's probably the only Chrysler I'd consider buying at this point (300M Special, late model, low miles) -- I like it better than the 300C (aka poor man's Bentley).

Which one has the Hemi?

gdwriter
05-20-09, 07:32 PM
That is not true. The LSx family of engines was a clean slate design that first premiered in the 1997 Corvette, then in 1998 in the fbody. 1999 saw a smaller displacement version go into the trucks. All of the GM V8's made past 2003 (except the Northstar) use the LSx family archetecture and share many interchangabile parts.

The only thing the new LSx V8's share with the old SBC is bore spacing, absolutely NO parts are interchangable.I know the parts are not interchangeable. It's more in terms of concept short stroke, pushrod valvetrain, compact dimensions and at least in the original form, displacement where the LSx engines carry on the heritage of the original Chevy small-block.

Night Wolf
05-20-09, 07:57 PM
I read today that of the ~800 Chrysler dealers being sold, half of them are/were selling less then 100 vehicles per year


Interesting. Did you do any research as to why? I wonder if maybe they were really good at pissing off/dissatisfying customers? That's another big reason why dealers close.

Talking with some people today at work, I seemed to have gotten more information about this... apparently GM owed the owner/dealer $100k in rebate money, that they could not pay him/it, which in turn made he/them have to file chapter 11 due to being unable to pay back loans/bills. If that is the case, then that is pretty messed up.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-20-09, 08:05 PM
Talking with some people today at work, I seemed to have gotten more information about this... apparently GM owed the owner/dealer $100k in rebate money, that they could not pay him/it, which in turn made he/them have to file chapter 11 due to being unable to pay back loans/bills. If that is the case, then that is pretty messed up.

The car business is such a shady/dirty business. I'm almost ashamed I'm a part of it in times like this.

Night Wolf
05-20-09, 08:56 PM
I grew up with both sides of the family driving, as well as being an overall GM fan. I personally have owned 4 GM's. I consider GM to almost be like "home". I used to just about ONLY like GM.

Then I decided to venture out and try the dark side... Japaneese. I must say, I was/am very impressed with their products. Especially 80's/up to mid 90's (late 90's for trucks/SUVs) engineering. I then figured I'd get my first Ford, and I've liked that, then I tried European/German, and I really liked that, lastly, Chrysler - which I've been very happy with.

I'll say that overall I'm impressed with all my vehicles. It would be very easy for someone to buy my Lincoln, BMW or possibly even Isuzu, and say they were the worst vehicles ever, because they needed a certain degree of work done when they got them. I am able to see past that and realize that I bought a 11-20y/o vehicle with anywhere from 93-130k miles. On mostly original parts, things wear out and need to be replaced, so I don't count that.

I know my personal experiences among them have not been consistent, so it is hard to compare things like material quality and such. I will say that my Isuzu SUV was built with just a very well thought out, logical design. Things just made sense, and if it was there, it was pretty much there for a reason. That vehicle was very overbuilt too, something that I am impressed with. Things like interior gaps or rattles just simply did not exist, sad to say it, but you can actually tell it was built with pride when new.

Next up would be Ford/Lincoln. Again, I'm very impressed with the car. With 118k it may as well drive like new. I've got nothing bad to say about the 4.6 OHC, in fact I have plenty good things to say about it. Alot of folks like to compare the power output to the small block Chevy's which are 1.1L larger, which isn't necessarily that fair. I can speak for Ford 4cyl and V6, but from my experience their V8's are top notch, from the old 289, to the 302/352 and now the modular 4.6/5.4 series. My 4.6 is super smooth and a perfect match for the car it is in. I've been driving it to work lately, and when going out to lunch with some co-workers, so far 3 have asked "Does this thing have a V8?" So, without making a smart answer back, I'll just say "yes" and the reply is "man, I bet this thing guzzles gas" so I look on the dash and say, "yeah - I reset the avg mpg when I filled up half a tank ago.... just my mixed driving to work and back and I am getting 19.0mpg." the reply is "oh....well.... thats not too bad.... actually thats pretty good" I'd say it's good, takes regular gas, it's a premium luxury car and it's paid for.

Interior material/quality is lacking on the Lincoln, which can be said with the same for GM over the same years, but it dosen't bother me. Compared to a '94+ DeVille, the car will have more windnoise etc... but again, that dosen't bother me. I've said it before, but the best way to explain this car, is that other then moving people, and their stuff, long distances in comfort, it simply dosen't excel in any one particular category, yet it dosen't fall short in anything either. It just does it's thing, and IMO, does it very well. All the mechanicals of it - acceleration, MPG, braking, ride & handling etc... are either adequate, or IMO above adequate for a car of it's size/class. The int/ext design, while being subjective is, IMO spot on. Parts are cheap and the car is easy to work on. It's just an overall winner in my book.

Driving home from work today I went thru town vs my normal route... I noticed early on the Panthers I was noticing, not just Town Cars, but Vic's, Marquis and TC. At first I thought it was a trend, but then I was laughing to myself as with each group of on-coming cars, there was atleast 1 panther. Literally the entire drive down the main drag, 1 our of every 10-15 vehicles was a Panther, everything from some pretty ratty old Vic's to brand new. I just thought that was rather interesing.

Then there is the BMW. I'm VERY impressed with this car. Again, it is hard to compare it to my Lincoln/Cadillac, because it was the entry level car, and more of a performance car then a luxury car. As such, all of the interior surfaces are either a very durable plastic or vinyl. With that said, the whole car is just built to a much higher standard then anything I've had in the past. It's hard to explain, but just the way the switchgear feels, even after 20yrs. There was attention to detail, the engine bay appears to have been designed with aesthetics in mind, and not just a thrown together mess. Other then some quirky things, like instrument cluster issues (which is a far more complex and intricate design then any other vehicle I've seen) things last long. Power window motors are still fast, and failures are uncommon etc... BMW also took alot of time when it came to their paint. Alot of things are painted, or painted and clear coated, if the car has clear coat, that otherwise would not be on a GM or Ford. There is an overall solid feeling about the car. Crawling underneath the car, just further proves the point of how well designed it is. Nearly everything on this car just looks good and high quality. The welds underneath are all top notch, the layout of stuff etc... In comparison, crawling under the Lincoln, and it looks like it was the first day of training with welders, as some of the welds just make you wonder where quality control was.

Lastly for me would be Chrysler. Well, I like to joke around and call it Chrysler. Such as at work, when someone now says "I'd never buy a Chrysler product" if I'm in the conversation I'll throw in "I've been really happy with my Chrysler product" which is true. Bought at 40k, now with 48k - I've put over 8k on it so far, besides the modifications I've made, all I've had to do were oil changes, everything else is original. To be fair, very little of the TJ is actually Chrysler. The 4.0 is an AMC engine. The front suspension is a copy of the XJ Cherokee, which was an AMC design. The transmission is Mercedes-sorced. The xfer case is New Process, and both axles are Dana. That leaves Chrysler to design/build the body and.... dash/seats. Luckily they didn't screw that up either.

Overall I've been very happy with all my vehicles. Like I said, I look at things from a different perspective them most. The previous owner of my Lincoln let many things fail, and didn't keep up with maintenance, so all the common failures on a TC of the age/miles it had, were stock piled up. Same case with the BMW, which was just a case of being worn out overall and in need of parts replacement. But this is to be expected, one would be on the verge of crazy if they are going to buy a 10-20 y/o car with 100k+ miles on it and expect it to perform like a brand new car, putting another 100k on it with no problems.

Destroyer
05-20-09, 09:27 PM
With few a few exceptions, I have never been impressed with Ford from a design or engineering standpoint. GM V8's generally make more power, get better mileage, and have more low end torque. Ford makes bland, passably engineered(far from great), fairly relaible products. I see them as the US equivilent of Toyota, bland, boring, well built, and afraid to take risks or invest the money into a superbly engineered product.


I agree with that. I don't particularly like many Ford products available today or for the past 20 years for that matter. My opinion is that they are more reliable but that is based on my experiences. I've owned MANY products from GM and Ford with some Chryslers thrown in. If I had to sum up the last 2 decades of American cars it would go like this:

1. GM: Good V8 RWD cars and trucks. All else pretty disposable and mostly garbage. Note: GM is the company I have the most loyalty too.

2.Ford: Good V8 RWD cars and trucks. Bland styling, often ugly. Reliable

3. Chrysler: Good trucks/vans. Crap otherwise.

Night Wolf
05-20-09, 11:49 PM
Here's the sign for Sandy:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09002.jpg

and the closed dealer for Chad...

This place was PACKED with vehicles, I mean jam packed. Their property goes from that storage place to the concrete wall...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09003.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09004.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09006.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09007.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09009.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09014.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/misc/5-20-09/5-20-09016.jpg

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-20-09, 11:52 PM
Man, that's an eerie look into the future of a lot of GM dealers around here.

gdwriter
05-21-09, 03:31 AM
I saw that Randy Jones Chevrolet in Corvallis was one of the dealers to lose its franchise. When I was still married, I took the ex-wife's Malibu there for some warranty work or an oil change, and the service was very good. There's still a Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac/GMC dealer in Corvallis; I wonder if they'll end up with Chevrolet as well.

Jesda
05-21-09, 05:24 AM
I would seriously want to steal that Plymouth sign in the middle of the night.

MauiV
05-21-09, 12:15 PM
Rumor around here is that the very highly thought of Cadillac/Saab/Volvo/Saturn dealer will now add Chevy to its list since all 3 Chevy dealers in town apparently are on the list.

I REALLY hope that customer feedback had something to do with these decisions. Seems like low-volume/bad customer service dealers are all getting the axe. I feel no sympathy for the dealers that have treated their customers like shit in the sales department or service department over the years.

Sandy
05-21-09, 05:03 PM
THANK YOU, RICK !! SAD TO SEE. "PLYMOUTH" ?? OKAY, THEN WHERE IS IMPERIAL ?

UPDATE

MOTHER MOPAR will NOT buy back, nor pay for the cars!!! Find yourself a closed dealer & find a car you like and I was told some are going for 50% of window sticker !!!


NEXT > Mother Mopar will NOT pay for, nor take back ANY parts !!
NEXT > Mother Mopar will not take back nor opay dealers for special tools for special cars need to work on those cars. white elephant tools.
NEXT > I was told, cannot confirm, 13 dealer principles have committed suicide.

They cannot pay for the cars, there are no buyers, they owe alot of $$$ on their buildings / mortgages and $$$ owed to MOTHER Mopar and they have no means to pay....no busines = no income !!!

MORE = One dealer with a free & clear home, worth $400,000 morgaged $275,000 to put into his business by enlarging the service dept.
Chrysler shut him down. Now, he owes the contractor, has no income, has no business, cannot sell cars and is probably gonna lose his home. He is 63 years old.

All together now, 1 - 2-3

"OH WHAT A FEELING WHEN YOU HAVE
A PART IN KILLING THE AMERICAN
BUSINESS" (C'mon, you're off key.....)

AMGoff
05-21-09, 05:11 PM
Lincoln on the other hand....

Saturday, go get yourself a demo-drive in a new MKS !!

:helpless:

If I wanted a tarted up Fusion I'd buy a Milan... at least that way I'd save an appreciable amount of scratch in lieu of badge, all while getting another "badge" in return:
http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/imagesblog/jill_wagner.jpg




With few a few exceptions, I have never been impressed with Ford from a design or engineering standpoint... Ford makes bland, passably engineered(far from great), fairly relaible products. I see them as the US equivilent of Toyota, bland, boring...

I've never been impressed with Ford engines; their 4-cylinder and V6 engines always felt thrashy.

That's the thing about Ford and has been for donkey's years, with few exceptions. On the whole, it's not that they make "bad" cars... Or ugly cars... Or unreliable cars... They just make cars - bland, boring cars that leave little emotional impact whatsoever. Even a car like the Mustang - which is supposed to be nothing but emotion simply comes across as overly-sterile for me. There's only one car in their current lineup that I find surprisingly interesting and actually like, that being the new Ford Fiesta - especially shocking because to anyone of a certain age, that particular nomenclature leaves a rather rancid taste in ones mouth... The new one on the other hand is a really nice/neat little car.

I do agree with the Toyota analogy in many ways... blah, boring, soulless, etc, except for one thing - at least Toyota/Lexus has the capacity to innovate every now and then. It's felt like Ford has done nothing but follow the pack for decades now, but then again... it is a strategy that's keeping them afloat for the time being at least, well that and getting knee-high into shitt a year or two ago, forcing Ford to mortgage everything including the kitchen sink before the entire economy went to pot.

It just makes me laugh that so many now laud Ford and Mullally for having had some sort of "foresight" into the looming economic crisis and subsequently taking the necessary steps to survive it. What BS... A lot of people seem to forget that just a couple years ago, it was Ford being tossed around with the "B"-word... Had Ford not messed its pants before the recession reared its ugly head, they'd be in the same boat as everyone else right now. Their current status is a prime example of "stepping in poo and coming up smelling of roses" and had a whole hell of a lot more to do with sheer, dumb luck than any "bold moves."


One of the Chevy dealers in Lex that is rumored to be on the blocks is being drug through the mud on a lot of boards lately. A customer ordered a 09 Camaro SS2. The car arrived but the dealer would not sell it to her for the previous agreed upon sticker price and now they have added an additional $10k dealer markup to the car. Understandably she is LIVID and many local people I know hope that this is one dealer that gets the axe.

If she actually ordered a new Camaro, then there should have been something in writing and most likely there should have been some sort of deposit put down on it... If done so, then dealer would have to honor the deal and she could fight them on it.

Then again, if she just walked in one day a couple months ago and said "Hi, I really want a new Camaro... How much is it? Will you let me know when your first one comes in?" Then it's her own friggin' fault for not getting anything in writing, nor failing to put at least a deposit down on it. My guess is that as soon as it got on the lot, the dealer had several people offering $5... 8... 10K over sticker for it.


My parents' '99 300M has sat outside now for 10 years and has 100000 miles. The paint itself still looks new, but some of the black trim has worn off. The interior is so so -- no dash cracking, but outboard drivers seat bolster has cracked some.

I have a feeling that if I still had my '99 GTP, that it would be in better condition.

That's not to say that I don't like the 300M -- it's probably the only Chrysler I'd consider buying at this point (300M Special, late model, low miles) -- I like it better than the 300C (aka poor man's Bentley).

Mike... I wholeheartedly agree that the 300M is a much better looker than its rolling-brick successor and I truly think Chrysler took a huge step backwards in terms of interior styling... As far as I'm concerned, those seats in the 300M (as well as the LHS of similar vintage) still remain as some of the best seats put into a high-volume/mass-produced car... Superbly styled, very comfortable, well bolstered, and properly supportive. The only seats that come close to the M/LHS today are those found in the Buick Lucerne - although the latter sacrifices a tiny bit of support in lieu of comfort, but still share the same great style.

We had a '00 300M PHG for several years and it was my daily driver up until I bought the GS... It was great car - never really had any problems with it. It had plenty of power from the 3.5L and it handled like a champ with the PHG package. Despite any complaints - especially regarding the transmissions in those cars, this one is still on the road as my uncle's DD... I think it has something like 196K miles on it at this point and still going strong.

As far as it being compared to a '99 GTP... I dunno.... All things being equal from a care/maintenance perspective, I'd have to say that the 300M would fair better overall - if for nothing else than the point that I've always felt Pontiacs styling, specifically their interiors do no age very well and become dated awfully quick - especially compared to the M's styling which has stood the test of time over the years.


Which one has the Hemi?

Ummm... A whole bunch of them there scooter. The 300, 300B, 300C, and 300D all used the "Firepower" Hemi from '55-'58... However, in '59 Chrysler switched over from the Hemi to their wedge-head all the way through 65's 300L.

In 1999, when Chrysler brought back the 300 nameplate with the 300M (which was actually originally intended to be the second-generation Eagle Vision - not a Chrysler), it was only offered with a SOHC 3.5L aluminum V6 which was shared with the redesigned LHS and Plymouth Prowler and FWD - much to the chagrin of numerous letter-series fans.

Then in 2005, Chrysler replaced the 300M with the RWD 300... Which could be had with a 2.7L V6 (300), the 3.5L V6 (300 Touring/Limited), the 5.7L "Hemi" V8 (300C), or the 6.1L "Hemi" V8 (SRT-8).

Either way... "Hemi" doesn't necessarily, nor automatically equate to "better."

Playdrv4me
05-21-09, 05:36 PM
I read today that of the ~800 Chrysler dealers being sold, half of them are/were selling less then 100 vehicles per year



Coke Front!

Playdrv4me
05-21-09, 05:38 PM
Here's the sign for Sandy:

and the closed dealer for Chad...

This place was PACKED with vehicles, I mean jam packed. Their property goes from that storage place to the concrete wall...


It's like that show Life After People...

V-Eight
05-21-09, 05:38 PM
Coke Front!

One of my local dealers sells about 600/month

Playdrv4me
05-21-09, 05:41 PM
Fords of the '90s were for the most part, built like tin-cans. Close a door on a Taurus versus a Lumina and you'll understand exactly what I mean. If you lived in a rust-prone area you were screwed. Also, mid-90s ford paint, particularly the dark colors, are a disaster. The clearcoat is so thin it's a wonder the paint lasted as long as it did. -However-, they were also extremely reliable vehicles.

Jesda
05-21-09, 06:08 PM
A part for the Crossfire, a little piece called a steering damper, used to sell for $20-$40 at the dealer. Chrysler is now charging $600 AND UP. Fortunately, people found other non-dealer sources.

Burn in hell, Chrysler.

orconn
05-21-09, 06:36 PM
Fords of the '90s were for the most part, built like tin-cans. Close a door on a Taurus versus a Lumina and you'll understand exactly what I mean. If you lived in a rust-prone area you were screwed. Also, mid-90s ford paint, particularly the dark colors, are a disaster. The clearcoat is so thin it's a wonder the paint lasted as long as it did. -However-, they were also extremely reliable vehicles.

Except for their transmissions, which the dealers wanted a fortune to fix after the warranty expired!

orconn
05-21-09, 06:40 PM
A part for the Crossfire, a little piece called a steering damper, used to sell for $20-$40 at the dealer. Chrysler is now charging $600 AND UP. Fortunately, people found other non-dealer sources.

Burn in hell, Chrysler.

They caught this contempt for their customers from Mercedes! May both companies burn in hell!

Playdrv4me
05-21-09, 06:46 PM
http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/imagesblog/jill_wagner.jpg


http://www.q45.org/cpg/albums/userpics/10001/wackit.gif

gary88
05-21-09, 06:51 PM
Maybe this will be a good time for me to pick up a Viper for cheap.

...nah

V-Eight
05-21-09, 06:53 PM
The Corvette still makes more torque :D

Playdrv4me
05-21-09, 07:44 PM
To put things in perspective: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=148668

"AUBURN HILLS, Michigan — In a terse response to a major legal challenge being mounted by its terminated dealers, Chrysler on Thursday painted a bleak financial picture of its dealerships in 2008.

"In 2008, Chrysler dealerships did not make a profit," said Steven J. Landry, Chrysler executive vice president of North American sales and marketing, service and parts in a statement. "The average loss was $3,184 per dealer."

Earlier this week, a group of terminated Chrysler dealers asked bankruptcy court in Manhattan to delay hearings that would approve the sale of Chrysler to Fiat, thus allowing the automaker to get rid of 789 of its dealership franchise agreements.

Thursday's statement by Chrysler offered little sympathy for the terminated dealers. Chrysler pointed out that 44 percent of the 789 "rejected" dealers are dualed with another new-vehicle franchise "and can continue to sell those makes of vehicles." It also said "83 percent of the 789 rejected dealers sell more used than new vehicles.""

Used cars are where it's at anyway in this economy. As long as you have a Motor Vehicle Dealer's License, none of these dealers should have any trouble continuing to sell used cars which they are free to do, and that takes the burden off new car sales.

orconn
05-21-09, 08:37 PM
Obviously the soul has left Chrysler. I hold little hope that FIAT with its' slimmed down management team and totally foreign corporate style will be able revive the empty shell that is currently Chrysler Corp. The leadership it needs is just not available in the corporate world today. We have, as stockholders, allowed our CEO's to travel under the allusion that they are brilliant, despite producing mediocre to failing results, and allowed our Boards to grant them exorbitant compensation for managing other people's money poorly. This poor state of affairs is not confined to the auto industry but is common among senior management across our economy's breadth. When the owners, the shareholders, allow themselves to be robbed blind by super greedy managements and their rubber- stamp boards they not only fail to get what they pay for, but contribute to their loss.

MauiV
05-21-09, 10:32 PM
If she actually ordered a new Camaro, then there should have been something in writing and most likely there should have been some sort of deposit put down on it... If done so, then dealer would have to honor the deal and she could fight them on it.

Then again, if she just walked in one day a couple months ago and said "Hi, I really want a new Camaro... How much is it? Will you let me know when your first one comes in?" Then it's her own friggin' fault for not getting anything in writing, nor failing to put at least a deposit down on it. My guess is that as soon as it got on the lot, the dealer had several people offering $5... 8... 10K over sticker for it.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.p...ht=rod+hatfield

The dealer is one that got their walking papers for obvious reasons, they will get their $10k markup now and not be around later to take to court.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-21-09, 11:27 PM
Adam, how did your 300C compare to your Regal GS? I'd imagine the 300 handled a bit sharper, felt more a bit "european" and "suave", but the GS was probably quicker and torquier. Was the Regal GS a lot more reliable?