: P0741 TCC stuck off



pugel
07-14-04, 10:14 AM
97 Deville. At 95k miles, got P0741 TCC stuck off. Runs/shifts perfectly. No loss in gas milage. Fluid looked brown so got transfusion. Still get P0741. Tried driving in 3rd gear (OD off?) (owners manual says that 3rd is also normal operation with more preformance and less gas milage). No more P0741. I drive 90% city. I am happy driving in 3rd (seems like no loss in gas milage). Trying to avoid any tran$mi$$ion repair. Am I hurting anything driving in 3rd?

pugel
07-15-04, 01:07 PM
More details…

This is my first caddy which I bought about 3 months ago knowing it had the P0741 code. It was a steal as my friend was trading it in and they weren’t giving him much for it so I bought it from him for the trade in amount. It looks/drives perfectly and I thought this code can’t be too serious. After reading related posts in this forum, I’m not so sure anymore. It sounded to me like an "OVERDRIVE torque converter clutch lock up" problem. I read the owners manual and it said:



THIRD (3): This position is also used for normal driving, however, it offers more power and lower fuel economy than OVERDRIVE (D).

So I cleared the P0741 code and tried driving around in "3" and I no longer get the P0741 code. Is all well driving around in "3" and am I not hurting anything? Or am I bypassing some PCM sensor test(s) and causing damage as if I was in OVERDRIVE (D)? I drive this car almost exclusively in the city so having OVERDRIVE is not important to me.

What symptoms could expect if I kept driving it in OVERDRIVE (D) and ignored the P0741 code?

97Deville
07-16-04, 01:19 AM
What symptoms could expect if I kept driving it in OVERDRIVE (D) and ignored the P0741 code?

I have been doing that since Febuary/ 10,000 miles.
You might burn out you SES light LOL. For me it has been an anoyance clearing the code every two starts, I have not noticed any other problems as a result of ignoring it.
Perhaps Bbob could shed some light on the damage possible?
In the meantime, here are some links for more info.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15392&highlight=TCC

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13203&highlight=TCC

Chris

familycruiser
08-12-04, 08:58 AM
Question, has anyone had this repaired? If so, how much did it end up costing? I have the same code and want to know what I am in for.

pugel
08-20-04, 04:32 PM
I haven't got mine fixed yet. Took an all-highway drive of 300 miles using OverDrive and got 27 mpg according to the DIC "average milage" so I don't think it's stuck off. I was suspicious that this couldn't be correct but manual calculations after filling up confirmed the milage.

I have narrowed down when I get the code to when I use OD in the city. If I don't use OD in the city and use OD on the highway I don't get the code anymore. Is that a hint to anyone as to what is causing my code?

Love my caddy.

Rick Bannon
01-17-05, 10:18 PM
I can't belive it. You have described excatly the problem that I have had for over a year and 25k miles. I clear the code but always comes back on within 25 miles. When I go on road trips I will reset the code before leaving home and the code will never come on. My trips are usually 300-600 miles. I have been to the dealer twice for code checks and they always want to change the TCC solonoid for $2K+ dollars. I have told them both times that the car runs without any problems. I get 20 plus MPG in town and as high as 30 on the highway. I have done all the troubleshooting like changing the trans fluid and the driving test as shown above; however I have not tried driving around town in 3rd and only overdrive but will start this test tomorrow. Thanks for the insight.

BeelzeBob
01-18-05, 12:33 AM
The code tests for slippage across the torque converter when the torque converter clutch is supposed to be applied to check that it is applying. If the code sees too much slip it will set the code. The code is not checked in manual 3 so it is no mystery why the code does not set when you drive in 3....

The diagnostic code only tests the operation of the torque converter clutch across a fairly narrow range of speed and load. IF you drive around that speed/load regime then the test will not run...that is why it is somewhat random when it sets the code. You may not be driving in the speed/load range that the code test is run. It only tests it driving and in that specific range of driving so lower speeds or higher speeds can be driven without the test for the TCC happening.


Go to the forum toolbar and click the search feature...type "torque converter clutch" "viscous converter clutch" "TCC" "VCC" etc...into the drop down box, search and read my posts on the various threads. There is a LOT of background info there to help you understand the torque converter clutch system.

The problem with the torque converter clutch not applying could be in the trans, in the torque converter, in the wiring too and from the trans, the electrical feed to the clutch circuit, the brake interlock switch, the PCM, etc.... There is a LOT more to the system than just the TCC solenoid inside the trans. There are PAGES of diagnostic diagrams and info in the service manual on how to trouble shoot this.

There is a simple check to see if the torque converter clutch is operating. While holding your right foot steady on the gas pedal at highway speeds when you would expect the TCC/VCC to be engaged use your left foot to LIGHTLY depress the brake pedal just enough to activate the brake pedal interlock switch. This will turn off the torque converter clutch as the TCC/VCC circuit is routed thru the brake switch in series as an interlock to disable the clutch when the brakes are applied. If you disable it this way while holding the load on the engine/trans steady you can feel the slight bump when the clutch disengages and see the 50-150 RPM increase on the tach when it disengages. If you do this and there is no bump nor any RPM increase then the torque converter clutch is not working...since it didn't disable when you disabled it with the brake pedal switch interlock.

oldgamer
01-19-05, 01:03 PM
...There is a simple check to see if the torque converter clutch is operating. While holding your right foot steady on the gas pedal at highway speeds when you would expect the TCC/VCC to be engaged use your left foot to LIGHTLY depress the brake pedal just enough to activate the brake pedal interlock switch. This will turn off the torque converter clutch as the TCC/VCC circuit is routed thru the brake switch in series as an interlock to disable the clutch when the brakes are applied. If you disable it this way while holding the load on the engine/trans steady you can feel the slight bump when the clutch disengages and see the 50-150 RPM increase on the tach when it disengages. If you do this and there is no bump nor any RPM increase then the torque converter clutch is not working...since it didn't disable when you disabled it with the brake pedal switch interlock.

While I like this way to check if the torque converter clutch is operating, it still doesn't give me the answer where the problem is (if converter clutch is not operating). But anyway, thanks a lot. I'll tell may friend to test it that way.

pugel
02-22-05, 12:47 PM
The diagnostic code only tests the operation of the torque converter clutch across a fairly narrow range of speed and load. IF you drive around that speed/load regime then the test will not run...that is why it is somewhat random when it sets the code. You may not be driving in the speed/load range that the code test is run. It only tests it driving and in that specific range of driving so lower speeds or higher speeds can be driven without the test for the TCC happening.

I'm back a year and 10k miles later and a lot wiser after reading this fantastik forum often. My caddy till runs like a top:bouncy: Still getting p0741 code:crying:
How come computer doesn't check for p0741 at highway speeds:confused: Seems like that's when you would most likely want it to be checked

gfulton
02-28-05, 10:12 PM
I've got this same problem on a '99 Olds Aurora. Came to this forum as some Cadillacs use the same 4T80E transmission as the Aurora. I've tried my best to read up on this and have learned the following info. The solenoid that operates the valve that ports fluid to the VCC is pulse width modulated. It oscillates at 30 cps and rides in an aluminum bore in the valve body on the side cover. Apparently, there is a problem with this aluminum bore wearing with all this wiping back and forth of the valve. Trans. pressure then bypasses around the valve and the VCC is not fully engaged. A company called Sonnax will soon make a kit that includes a steel sleeve, reamer and new valve for this bore. The bore is reamed out, sleeve installed, and valve replaced. I haven't done this repair, but I'm just passing along what I've learned. The whole problem here, and it's very distressing to me at least, is that the side cover on the valve body is not accesible with the trans. installed in the car. Trans has to be dropped. I'm an airline electrician and if Boeing ever sent out an aircraft with this level of inaccessability to repair, they'd have it reengineered very quickly. Just no sense in something like this. I have an OTC Genisys scanner and can watch my VCC slipping on the display. I tried applying full trans. line pressure with the scanner while driving and it made no difference in the VCC slippage, but did increase shift harshness as it should have. Also had a trans. flush done, and done correctly, with no help. Something else I've learned about the VCC is that the silicone fluid inside can lose it's shear strength. It's similar to the fluid used in a thermostatic fan clutch on other GM cars. If the VCC is allowed to slip for too long a time, the shear strength of the fluid is reduced. Similar to what happens to an old thermostatic fan clutch. I don't have the bulletin here with me, but I believe that GM recommends replacing the VCC also when you have this problem. I'm thinking that this loss of fluid shear strength is their reasoning, since there are no clutch plates to wear out. I'd really like to see what's inside one of these VCC's, but can find no graphic of the internals. I apologize for a long post, but I'm really dreading dropping this trans. to try and fix this and am well pissed off over the design. I feel for anybody else staring this expensive repair down. But bbobynski is certainly right in their being good diagnostic procedures for this problem, and I've used his trick above to also confirm that my VCC was working. It's just slipping past the limits in the service manual chart.

pugel
03-24-05, 12:23 PM
There is a simple check to see if the torque converter clutch is operating. While holding your right foot steady on the gas pedal at highway speeds when you would expect the TCC/VCC to be engaged use your left foot to LIGHTLY depress the brake pedal just enough to activate the brake pedal interlock switch. This will turn off the torque converter clutch as the TCC/VCC circuit is routed thru the brake switch in series as an interlock to disable the clutch when the brakes are applied. If you disable it this way while holding the load on the engine/trans steady you can feel the slight bump when the clutch disengages and see the 50-150 RPM increase on the tach when it disengages. If you do this and there is no bump nor any RPM increase then the torque converter clutch is not working...since it didn't disable when you disabled it with the brake pedal switch interlock.

I did the above test and got no bump nor any RPM increase so that means my torque converter clutch is not working. :hmm: Now what do I do? Will I hurt anything (besides gas milage) by ignoring this problem?

dougd
03-30-05, 10:02 PM
I have a 96 SLS - 160,000 miles.

Trans does not shift at 40mph. Rpms go to 3000 but car does not go over 40 Mph.

I had a few extraneous codes and cleared them - there was no code re: service transmission.

After clearing codes, I drove about a mile and got a p0741 code - the code you are talking about.

It sounds odd that no one is having problems with their trans - and I can't drive over 40 Mph - with the same code.

It makes me wonder if my/your p0741 is for real. I was driving for 2 days without being able to get over 40 Mph - and no P0741 code. Now, I finally get one???? I really didn't need a code to tell me my tranny was busted by this time!!!

Any ideas??????

I scheduled service with Cadillac for this Friday (4/1/05) and I think I'm going to clear that code before I pull in!. They will be all over a $2k repair like flies on SH!@ - even if it is a lesser fix!!!!

Thanks

Ps. I just put $1200 into this piece of junk this month.

BeelzeBob
03-30-05, 11:17 PM
I have a 96 SLS - 160,000 miles.

Trans does not shift at 40mph. Rpms go to 3000 but car does not go over 40 Mph.

I had a few extraneous codes and cleared them - there was no code re: service transmission.

After clearing codes, I drove about a mile and got a p0741 code - the code you are talking about.

It sounds odd that no one is having problems with their trans - and I can't drive over 40 Mph - with the same code.

It makes me wonder if my/your p0741 is for real. I was driving for 2 days without being able to get over 40 Mph - and no P0741 code. Now, I finally get one???? I really didn't need a code to tell me my tranny was busted by this time!!!

Any ideas??????

I scheduled service with Cadillac for this Friday (4/1/05) and I think I'm going to clear that code before I pull in!. They will be all over a $2k repair like flies on SH!@ - even if it is a lesser fix!!!!

Thanks

Ps. I just put $1200 into this piece of junk this month.



160,000 miles and it is a "piece of junk".....LOL LOL

I think that you have several problems. If the trans will not shift it sounds more like the shift solenoid(s) may have failed. That has nothing to do with the VCC or the VCC apply. The test for the VCC is not run below 45 MPH or so ....so....that is why you don't see the code driving below 40 MPH. That code has nothing to do with the trans no shifting or you not being able to get over 40.... I would look into the shift solenoids, personally. They are accessable from the bottom pan and relatively easy to change.

BeelzeBob
03-30-05, 11:35 PM
I'm an airline electrician and if Boeing ever sent out an aircraft with this level of inaccessability to repair, they'd have it reengineered very quickly. Just no sense in something like this.

.


This is precious......LOL LOL I am sure that EVERYTHING on a Boeing is accessible with a Leatherman pliers and an ice pick....and you don't even have to bend over, right...???? LOL LOL

Is it really THAT big of a deal that the VCC solenoid is under the side cover of the trans..??? It is impossible to design a car so that every single piece can be service by a blind monkey with one arm. Just deal with it. The incident of failure of that particular solenoid and the 4T80E trans in general is extremely low. I don't think that there is any reasonable cause for being that upset over the fact that the trans has to be lowered to open up the side cover. You cannot do a LOT of service items on ANY car without some invasive work.

Comparing a car to an airliner is absurd. Airliners have to have the engines replaced periodically and they have to be taken completely apart for B and C checks for heavens sake. Why didn't Boeing make them so that they do not need period inspections to make sure that the wings aren't going to fall off.

Do you know why there is an "e" in Boeing....???.....Because it would be embarassing when their planes hit the ground if their name was "Boing" LOL LOL

In all seriousness, there is some misunderstanding I think. Those PWM solenoids that control the VCC apply run in MANY different transmissions in many different cars and there is no problem that I have ever heard of with the valve wearing out in an aluminum bore. The part that is "vibrating" from the PWM control is inside the solenoid itself. It is a hardened steel pintle inside the solenoid against the bleed orifice in the solenoid. The solenoid itself is just bleeding oil from the trans valve to move them. The valve inside the trans valve body doesn't move with the PWM motions....just the pintle inside the solenoid. I think you are misconstruing some information.

It is possible for the VCC itself to slip or creep too much if the VCC unit inside the torque converter is failing. The viscous coupling inside the torque converter is a series of raised, circular fences on two opposing discs that interlock when the discs are brought together. The void between the interlocking fences is filled with the viscous silicone fluid. Shearing the silicone fluid is what provides the connection between the two discs and the gradual slip or creep from shearing the fluid is what provides the isolation. It is possible that the VCC unit in your trans has become contaminated with trans fluid if the seal in the VCC is starting to fail causing the viscosity of the fluid to lower to the point that it is slipping too much and triggering the code. It might be a weak VCC solenoid but in my experience, if the solenoid is working at all, it works. When it fails, the VCC unit does not apply at all. The solenoid is not PWM'd to control the VCC during operation .... only during the apply and release so, just after the apply signal is triggered the solenoid should be applying full pressure to the VCC apply clutch. It wouldn't be limiting the pressure unless there is a leak of some sort in the solenoid mounting or the solenoid itself is starting to fail.

There are folks that have removed the side cover with the trans in the car and I have seen it done many times in our garage. Official instructions are to drop the trans...but...working thru the left wheel well and dropping the cradle slightly with a floor jack on one side you can get the cover off and access the solenoid on your own. My guess is that the torque converter will need to be replaced anyway to get a new VCC unit into play so it may be pointless to try and do the repair without dropping the trans.

Those inconsiderate engineers....you have to drop the trans to change the torque converter, too.... !!!! LOL LOL

dhs
05-27-05, 01:31 AM
I have the same problem with my 2000 dhs, I had the torque converter and solenoids replaced by the dealer, but the code still shows up periodically. Does it mean that it only has one gear when the light is on? Do you think the fluid could be the problem? Anything I could do myself before taking it in? Does turning traction off put the transmission in limp mode or second gear?

Thanks for you time.

mike-z
02-25-06, 04:40 PM
Hello everybody
I have just acquired a 1999 DeVille and it cannot pass the California Smog test because of the "Service Engine Soon" light, triggered by the "P0741 TCC stuck off" error code. All the emissions are within normal limits, the car runs smooth, and the average gas mileage is 22-25/gallon.
The car has 107,000 hot Arizona miles on it, and the old engine has just been replaced with a used one with 70,000 miles on it. The interior and exterior are super clean.
I read this thread from the top, and I am impressed by the technical insight displayed by everyone, aspecially Bob (BeelzeBob).
I decided to try to replace the TCC solenoid myself, and I could use the schematics for the 4T80E transmission.
Does anybody have them and is willing to share? Also, coud you recommend a repair manual?
Thank you in advance.

Ranger
02-25-06, 05:25 PM
The ONLY repair manual to get is a FSM from http://www.helminc.com, but check Ebay first.

mike-z
02-25-06, 06:05 PM
Thank you Ranger.

bschelle
02-28-06, 02:17 PM
mike-z, I had the same problem with Illinois test. I cleared the codes and drove the car in 3rd gear, never shifting to 4th. I put on about 400 miles and the SES never came on. I took it in and passed the test!

mike-z
03-01-06, 01:51 PM
Thank you bschelle. I will give it a try.

mike-z
03-14-06, 01:01 PM
Bschelle, I tried driving it in 3-rd gear only, and the SES light came back after about 50 miles, with the same code.
Those 400 miles, did you drive it under a certain speed all the times? Any other driving restrictions?
Thanks.
Also, does anybody know how to clear just the P0741 code living the rest of the OBD self tests intact?

bschelle
03-14-06, 01:17 PM
My wife drives the 99 Deville and I told her not to put it into 4 and just drive like always and she drives hard and fast!! She drove it for a couple of weeks that way and the SES never lit up. I still get the P0741 error about once a week though. As far as just clearing certain codes, I can't imagine that you can do it. I think it is all or nothing.

mike-z
03-14-06, 01:30 PM
Thanks, bschelle.

mike-z
03-18-06, 08:37 PM
Here we go again.
Last week I cleared the codes, and I put on it about 30-35 miles around-town driving (low speeds). Today I took a freeway drive, 55 miles each way, at various speeds, from slow traffic to 80 mph. Coming back home, after about 85 miles, the SES light came back on due to PCM code P0741 current. All the above driving was done in 3-rd.
Bschelle, do you (or anybody else) know what could it be in my case that triggers the P0741 even when I do all the driving in 3-rd?
Thank you.
Mike

bschelle
03-20-06, 01:43 PM
Sorry, I haven't a clue other than what happened to me!

Ranger
03-20-06, 04:04 PM
I think P0741 is triggered by the TCC solenoid not engaging when it is supposed to (@ 41 MPH).

tjm
03-22-06, 12:21 PM
I have the same P0741 code and came to the same conclussion through research as gfulton. I was researching the installation proceedure when I stumbled on this thread.

Looks like it's not an easy task.

I do notice a difference at highway speed. The TCC lock-up was always slightly noticable and almost like a 5th gear. Although I know the TCC IS engaging via the tap-the-brake-at-50 technique, it tends to slip out more easily now and is less pronounced when engaging.

Dadillac
03-22-06, 04:01 PM
I ordered a new TCC/CC switch, and put it in yesterday. So far, I have been in the specified range, about four times. No codes as of yet. Over the past month or so, I haven't been able to drive this many times, without setting a code. It is now Wednesday, I will post back on Friday or Saturday, to let you all know if a code was set. So far so good. My fingers are crossed.

Don

Dadillac
03-23-06, 08:52 AM
Well, changing the TCC/CC switch didn't help. I got a code this morning. Oh well, for $42 it was worth a shot.

Don

pugel
01-10-07, 04:36 PM
I'm the originator of this post. Still getting p0741 code. Haven't done anything about it. My caddy still runs like a top. Now got 131,000 miles. That's 3 years and 36,000 trouble free tranny miles with the p0741 code.

Cad tech
01-10-07, 07:44 PM
I love the 4T-80E

I did not read every post but from what was posted (if i missed it shoot me)...

The problem is the turbine shaft and the 2 turbine shaft to case cover seals. Very common.....the tcc pwm is reading that the pressure is not staying within the torque convertor in which it kicks the code on and disables the tcc system.... now on 2000 and up u may also need the drive support and drive gear which shows abnormal wear letting the drive chain move inward and killing the seals and turbine shaft.......it will end up flexing into your forth band and ruining that and your reverse housing if it keeps coming on.....on other common problem is that the TCC solinoid gets shorted inside of valve and when you pill off the side cover it will be evident the buildup on the pigtail of valve.......

cadicurious
08-22-07, 03:24 PM
All - first just wanted to say thanks for a great forum...got a lot of great info before I bought my 2000 sts 2 years ago - bought with 55,000 miles and ran it problem free (other than the need to add a quart of oil every 1500) up to 78,000 miles.

Now I am having some trouble and need to know how much it should concern me. In the last couple of weeks I started getting a bit of a stutter on the highway, stalled once at a traffic light and noticed the car running a bit rough in general lately with a lot of vibration at idle - assumed it was a spark plug or ignition coil...later when the SES light came on found the P0741 code. Cadillac wants to charge me $3400 to fix it :eek: (based on the code info only - they haven't looked into it to truly diagnose).

Based on the info from this forum, it seems pretty variable as to whether I need to worry about this problem. A lot of posts indicate they get the code but their car seems to run great. In those cases, it seems the owner has gotten away with just running the car as is for thousands of miles more.

MY problem is actually symptomatic.

Based on what I describe above any ideas what MY approach should be? Also, if I do run the car as is, what is the worse possible outcome? Isn't it about the same cost to throw another rebuilt transmission in?

Ranger
08-22-07, 09:36 PM
Also, if I do run the car as is, what is the worse possible outcome?
Gas mileage drops by about 1 MPG. This DTC should not cause a stutter, stall or vibration. Just a little trans slippage and about 200 higher RPM at any given speed, thus the fuel mileage drop.

cadicurious
08-27-07, 07:29 AM
Gas mileage drops by about 1 MPG. This DTC should not cause a stutter, stall or vibration. Just a little trans slippage and about 200 higher RPM at any given speed, thus the fuel mileage drop.

Thanks for the info Ranger - maybe I am looking into the wrong thing altogether...or maybe there are multiple problems...will look into it further and HOPE I can get through it all without suffering too many costs - will keep you posted...

AJxtcman
08-27-07, 01:10 PM
Gas mileage drops by about 1 MPG. This DTC should not cause a stutter, stall or vibration. Just a little trans slippage and about 200 higher RPM at any given speed, thus the fuel mileage drop.

I did a P0741 last week and it came back today. The slip speed was about 400 rpm's.
I did this the right way no skimping on parts.


Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On, Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0741, Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Excessive Slip, Transaxle Chuggle, Slip/Surge (Inspect/Replace Internal Transaxle Components) #04-07-30-034 - (08/06/2004)


Condition
Some customer may comment on the SES light on and a chuggle or surge. Diagnostics may show excessive TCC slip speed and DTC P0741 will be current code stored.

Cause
Seal damage may allow the TCC apply fluid to leak into the channel plate, causing excessive TCC slippage under certain conditions, eventually causing no TCC apply.

TCC may have partial apply fluid pressure or no apply fluid pressure. If excessive slip speed is noted and condition/cause cannot be corrected by using DTC P0741 diagnostic chart, suspect worn seals from slippage of the drive sprocket bearing inner race on the drive sprocket.

Correction
DO THIS
DON'T DO THIS

Repair the transaxle
DO NOT replace the complete transaxle assembly


Follow the diagnostic and repair procedure below to repair this condition.

Remove the transaxle from the vehicle. Refer to the appropriate Service Information for transaxle removal procedure.
Remove the torque converter.
Install the transaxle to holding fixture. Refer to Holding Fixture Installation SI Document ID #513730.
Remove the transaxle side cover, upper valve body and case cover. Refer to the appropriate Unit Repair Information in SI.

34742

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for uneven wear patterns.

34743

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for uneven wear patterns. The wear patterns will be evident by a uneven wear pattern of the inner diameter white seal surface as shown in the two above illustrations.

34744

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for splits/tears and or flat spots.

34745

Inspect the support drive socket (400) for wear on the bearing race.
Inspect the case cover (33) for wear or damage due to the drive sprocket bearing spinning in the bore.
Important:

• During the tear down inspection, pay particular attention to seals (34, 35, 409 and 412) for wear or damage.

• Seals (34, 35, 409 and 412) are part of Gasket Kit, P/N 24221398, and do not need to be ordered separately.

• Replace the Torque Converter when servicing a vehicle with this condition.

• Flush the transaxle cooler with Transflow cooler flushing tool, J 45096. Refer to Service Bulletins:

• Info - Automatic Transmission Oil Cooler Flush and Flow Test Essential Tool J 45096, TransFlow #02-07-30-052

• Transmission Cooling System Service Tool J 45096 - Transflow Information #03-07-30-002.


Replace only the necessary internal transaxle components per the tear down inspection. See the parts list below.
Parts Information
Part Number---------------Description

24221398------------------GASKET KIT, A/TRNS SERV

24229131------------------COVER, A/TRNS CASE

8681071-------------------SUPPORT, DRV SPKT

24209248------------------CONVERTER, TORQ (REMAN) (TCC) (04.115) 4.6Y (LD8), 4-SPD A/TRANS (MH1)

24209249------------------CONVERTER,TORQ (REMAN) (TCC) (04.115) 4.6-9 (L37), LEADED FUEL EMIS EXPORT (NM8), UNLEADED FUEL EXPORT (NN8), 3.71R (FV4), (EXC JAPANESE PCM (R1N)

24209250------------------CONVERTER,TORQ (REMAN) (TCC) (04.115)4.6-9 (L37), 4-SPD A/TRANS (MH1) 3.71R (FV4)

Dadillac
08-27-07, 02:24 PM
I did a P0741 last week and it came back today. The slip speed was about 400 rpm's.
I did this the right way no skimping on parts.


Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On, Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0741, Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Excessive Slip, Transaxle Chuggle, Slip/Surge (Inspect/Replace Internal Transaxle Components) #04-07-30-034 - (08/06/2004)


Condition
Some customer may comment on the SES light on and a chuggle or surge. Diagnostics may show excessive TCC slip speed and DTC P0741 will be current code stored.

Cause
Seal damage may allow the TCC apply fluid to leak into the channel plate, causing excessive TCC slippage under certain conditions, eventually causing no TCC apply.

TCC may have partial apply fluid pressure or no apply fluid pressure. If excessive slip speed is noted and condition/cause cannot be corrected by using DTC P0741 diagnostic chart, suspect worn seals from slippage of the drive sprocket bearing inner race on the drive sprocket.

Correction
DO THIS
DON'T DO THIS

Repair the transaxle
DO NOT replace the complete transaxle assembly


Follow the diagnostic and repair procedure below to repair this condition.

Remove the transaxle from the vehicle. Refer to the appropriate Service Information for transaxle removal procedure.
Remove the torque converter.
Install the transaxle to holding fixture. Refer to Holding Fixture Installation SI Document ID #513730.
Remove the transaxle side cover, upper valve body and case cover. Refer to the appropriate Unit Repair Information in SI.

34742

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for uneven wear patterns.

34743

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for uneven wear patterns. The wear patterns will be evident by a uneven wear pattern of the inner diameter white seal surface as shown in the two above illustrations.

34744

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for splits/tears and or flat spots.

34745

Inspect the support drive socket (400) for wear on the bearing race.
Inspect the case cover (33) for wear or damage due to the drive sprocket bearing spinning in the bore.
Important:

• During the tear down inspection, pay particular attention to seals (34, 35, 409 and 412) for wear or damage.

• Seals (34, 35, 409 and 412) are part of Gasket Kit, P/N 24221398, and do not need to be ordered separately.

• Replace the Torque Converter when servicing a vehicle with this condition.

• Flush the transaxle cooler with Transflow cooler flushing tool, J 45096. Refer to Service Bulletins:

• Info - Automatic Transmission Oil Cooler Flush and Flow Test Essential Tool J 45096, TransFlow #02-07-30-052

• Transmission Cooling System Service Tool J 45096 - Transflow Information #03-07-30-002.


Replace only the necessary internal transaxle components per the tear down inspection. See the parts list below.
Parts Information
Part Number---------------Description

24221398------------------GASKET KIT, A/TRNS SERV

24229131------------------COVER, A/TRNS CASE

8681071-------------------SUPPORT, DRV SPKT

24209248------------------CONVERTER, TORQ (REMAN) (TCC) (04.115) 4.6Y (LD8), 4-SPD A/TRANS (MH1)

24209249------------------CONVERTER,TORQ (REMAN) (TCC) (04.115) 4.6-9 (L37), LEADED FUEL EMIS EXPORT (NM8), UNLEADED FUEL EXPORT (NN8), 3.71R (FV4), (EXC JAPANESE PCM (R1N)

24209250------------------CONVERTER,TORQ (REMAN) (TCC) (04.115)4.6-9 (L37), 4-SPD A/TRANS (MH1) 3.71R (FV4)

What was the repair cost? For inquiring minds.

Don

AJxtcman
08-27-07, 04:20 PM
What was the repair cost? For inquiring minds.

Don

Customer told me it was 3K.
Off my spred sheat I came up with $1200 parts.

Dadillac
08-27-07, 06:09 PM
Customer told me it was 3K.
Off my spred sheat I came up with $1200 parts.

Thanks. My car throws this code constantly, and was wondering what it would cost. I am seriously considering getting it repaired as I plan on keeping the car for a long time. I am weighing the repair cost to what the car is worth, and it seems like a wise choice. Do you know if this particular repair is bulletproof? As in will it last longer than the original?

Don

AJxtcman
08-27-07, 06:37 PM
Thanks. My car throws this code constantly, and was wondering what it would cost. I am seriously considering getting it repaired as I plan on keeping the car for a long time. I am weighing the repair cost to what the car is worth, and it seems like a wise choice. Do you know if this particular repair is bulletproof? As in will it last longer than the original?

Don

I will know in the morning for sure, but I think I got a bad converter.:want:
I may have had some debris in a TCC valve. They use 4 valves to operate the TCC

rikosuave
08-31-07, 03:05 PM
Hello everybody
I have just acquired a 1999 DeVille and it cannot pass the California Smog test because of the "Service Engine Soon" light, triggered by the "P0741 TCC stuck off" error code. All the emissions are within normal limits, the car runs smooth, and the average gas mileage is 22-25/gallon.
The car has 107,000 hot Arizona miles on it, and the old engine has just been replaced with a used one with 70,000 miles on it. The interior and exterior are super clean.
I read this thread from the top, and I am impressed by the technical insight displayed by everyone, aspecially Bob (BeelzeBob).
I decided to try to replace the TCC solenoid myself, and I could use the schematics for the 4T80E transmission.
Does anybody have them and is willing to share? Also, coud you recommend a repair manual?
Thank you in advance.


Same problem on my '00 Seville with 79K.

Cleared the code with my OBD2 and then drove the car in 3rd about 30 miles to let the computer reset and passed the NC emission test.

The minute I left the inspection, I put the tranny in D and within a mile the SES light came back on.

I've drove with the 0741 code for 20K+ an have not experienced any problems under normal driving conditions.

Eventually I'm going to have to replace the tranny, but I'm just not real hip on spending $2,400 right now.

AJxtcman
09-03-07, 10:17 AM
On this car that I did this P0741 DTC repair on.
I removed the side cover off in the car and removed everything down to the Drive Sprocket Support. I built a plate to test the converter. The test was inconclusive. I replace the TCC solenoid and reassemble the car. On my test drive I engaged the TCC. the car gave a bump, but no TCC slip speed change. After the third time it was all good. Must have had some air in it from all the testing. I headed to the freeway and let the car do it thing ( no override). I captured a snapshot and the data looked ok. It was all in the allowable parameters. The TCC in the 4T80E is not a clutch. It is a Viscous Coupler. It will always slip. When the car came to me initially it was just above the allowable slip speed.

Initial slip speed was 175 rpm @ ??? engine torque.
After first repair on my test drive 75 rpm @ 175 lb ft This is good
Customer returned 2 days later no engagement at all on test drive
Freeze frame data was 444 rpm @ 78 lb ft
After the second repair it was 196 rpm at 90 lb ft

Customer returned again very unhappy.
I had replaced and gone over everything I touched except the Torque Converter. I could not replace it on the second repair because the way I had the trans mounted on the trans jack without rehanging it in the car.
.
I drove it straight into my stall and let the car cool over night. I pulled the converter replaced it the next morning. I filled the trans and coolant, started the engine, ran it up into 3 gear, enabled the TCC and hit the brakes. It killed the engine. I thought it should, but no one could tell me this for sure even our Technical Assistance Center.
.
I got a bad GM rebuilt Converter. It cost me about 2 days of pay. Why Me.
We have more than one converter on the self why did I have to get the bad one:rant2:

Long post, but I felt like venting. I think my test plate may work.

Ranger
09-03-07, 09:02 PM
I got a bad GM rebuilt Converter. It cost me about 2 days of pay. Why Me.
We have more than one converter on the self why did I have to get the bad one
GM should pay for that.

AJxtcman
09-04-07, 07:21 AM
GM should pay for that.

I spent three days between the second and third repairs. I got about 8 hrs. R&R converter was 5 hrs. I am lucky that the first repair was Customer Pay.

tudor1967
09-19-07, 02:45 PM
Add another TCC SES P0741 customer to the discussion... I will try the 50 mph brake tap and no overdrive test today on my '04 Deville. I also read a post in an old forum about a disengage switch located high on the brake pedal assembly:

Ranger01-19-06, 06:59 PM
It just means that there will be a very minor slippage in the trans because the TCC (torque converter clutch) is not locking up. You'll run a couple hundred higher RPM at any given speed so your fuel milage will drop a mile per gallon or so. Check the disengae switch at the top of the brake pedal first. If that fails, or is mis adjusted, it will not engage the TCC. Otherwise I'd follow Brown1311's advice.

Can someone elaborate on this option?

Ranger
09-19-07, 09:22 PM
Elaborate on what?

clarkz71
09-20-07, 07:06 AM
.
I got a bad GM rebuilt Converter. It cost me about 2 days of pay. Why Me.
We have more than one converter on the self why did I have to get the bad one:rant2:

.

Every dealer I've worked at, if we had a defective part, the service manager
paid us straight time to cover us, and charged it back to the parts dept.
The only time we didn't get covered is if we damaged the part installing it.

limoguy
10-24-07, 10:14 AM
First of all, I want to thank all who have helped me in the past. Im happy I found this site. It has been a big help.

Now, I do indeed have the P0741 code. I have cleared it a couple times. The light stays off for about 75-100 miles. Now, I do mostly highway driving at 65-75 mph. The light seems to come on when doing city driving for some reason.
Overall, the car seems fine & gets between 23-24 mpg. She has 120k on her. Im not looking to pull the trans apart, spending thousands doing it. My plan is to drive it normally until it gets worse. At that point I will act on it. I would likely swap the trans out completely. These cars have so many sensors. Im thankfull I dont have more codes!!:banghead:

millemk
12-29-08, 10:16 AM
I also get the PO741 code (infrequently - 3 times in the past 4 months) on my 02 SLS which I simply clear. I have read most posts on this issue, but yet do not get a good feed on if I really need to have the issue fixed at a tranny shop with a new VCC, seals, and related parts. I have also tried the brake test at 50 - 55 mph and do have some TCC lockup as noted by the RPM increase (i.e. 200 RPM) on the dash. Can some expert, such as AJxtcman or Ranger, advise me what I should do? - R&R or live with it? Is there long term degradation to the transmission?

Scan tool shows;
Eng Rpm 1518
Veh speed 41
TPS % 16.86
Calc Load 12.16%
ECT deg F 197

PS - what is the normal VCC slippage rate even when the VCC is engaged?

Ranger
12-31-08, 11:58 PM
Slippage is ZERO when the TCC is locked up (engaged). Sounds like yours is intermittent. Fix it or live with it is up to you. The cost to repair is high, but the cost of living with it is about 1 MPG. I don't think there is any long term degradation, but I'm no expert.

millemk
02-09-09, 01:17 PM
Interestingly, I found the GM specifications for determining when the CPM will trigger the PO741 code. This information came from GM technical file "2002file5.doc". I am looking to obtain the proper scanner to connect to my laptop to see the exact slippage being sensed, without spending an arm and a leg. Granted, 0 slippage is ideal, but reality is something else;

Torque converter slip > interpolated
table look up f(torque). See below:
Slip (RPM) Torque (ft-lbs)
48 0
80 48
200 95
252 143
271 191
280 239
280 286
280 334
280 382

Conditions for sensing the slippage;

No IMS DTC failing
No VSS DTC failing
No TP sensor DTC failing
No ISS DTC failing
No TCC Stuck on DTC failing
No TCC Electrical DTC failing
TCC capacity > 0% > 5 sec
No Engine Torque Default
Transmission range = D2, D3, or D4
10% < Throttle position < 50%
20 C. < Transmission Fluid Temp. < 133 C.
43 N-m < Engine Torque < 215 N-m
450 < Engine RPM < 7500 > 5.0 sec
TCC Pressure > 450 kPa > 5.0 sec.
Last manual range  > 6 sec.

adobefreak
02-15-09, 12:15 AM
How do I clear the codes?

Ranger
02-15-09, 05:05 PM
See post #2
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/55172-how-pull-codes-got-codes-warning.html

limoguy
02-15-09, 07:09 PM
I have had that P0741 code on my Deville for 125K miles. Now theres 224K on it. I didnt do anything about it. She is ok with it.

scotmo
04-01-10, 12:03 AM
I have some information from a source that unfortunately I can't reveal but this tidbit should be added to one of the causes of this problem. I thought for sure that I would have read this in a post but I have not and I think that I have read them all by now. It is simply that the electrical parameters were set to tight by the GM engineers. Trust me, my source couldn't be better. So, perhaps this will help out at least in a case where all the necessary work was done to correct the issue but the P0741 still shows itself from time to time. Remember in school that a 60 was a D and you would pass the class but get a 59 (E) and you FAILED !!! Same principle involved here (parameters set too tight which equals failure or in this case P0741).
- sincerley, scotmo. In too deep cash wise to quit the weekly repairs on my possessed 2001 Deville so keep spreading the information, I am quite sure that I am going to keep needing it or perhaps just a good exorcist !!!

Ranger
04-01-10, 12:22 PM
So what are you saying, the DTC is set, but the TCC is not stuck off? Does your source have a fix? Reflash the PCM? Has GM addressed the issue? Need more info. Inquiring minds want to know.

Submariner409
04-01-10, 07:12 PM
Bat guano...........




If the DTC sets and you don't get the last 300 rpm drop in 4th gear
at TCC lockup speeds under light to moderate load conditions the
solenoid is cracked or fried.

This isn't Mission Impossible, this is Cadillac Forums. There is no
such thing as a secret source. ...........Maybe someone who would not like to
be hung out to dry in public, but no secret sources.

coaster
04-03-10, 06:32 PM
submariner409 what if the rpm do drop 300rpms at 300rpms at moderate speeds and the dtc set what going on some time i get the po741 code on long trips over 250mi sometimes and sonetimes it will not set code.

Ranger
04-03-10, 06:48 PM
submariner409 what if the rpm do drop 300rpms at 300rpms at moderate speeds and the dtc set what going on some time i get the po741 code on long trips over 250mi sometimes and sonetimes it will not set code.
Then the TCC clutch was engaged.

coaster
04-03-10, 06:53 PM
thank you ranger i was hoping you would chime in i seen your green light on and know you were on line thanks

adobefreak
04-19-10, 11:29 PM
Well I have been resetting the SES light for almost a 8 months now, On and off in city driving if in OD. I tired to drive only in 3rd to avoid the SES light. Last night. I was driving my car in 3rd gear. I was at a stop light on an slight incline, I went to give it gas and the car acted like it did not want to go. IF I floored it the car seemed to bog but no increase of speed. It seems like I have 3rd gear only. If I shift to 1st to take off the car doest seem to want to go but will if I give it a little gas and let build speed it will go. If I am in 1st gear on the column, I can give it gas and let it build up speed. It never shifts and I can go from zero to 75 no shifts.

I let the car sit over night, This morning the car shifted and drove fine, like nothing was wrong. I when I came home from work it was fine until the same incline as last night. Now the car seems to be again stuck in 3rd gear, However I can take off from OD the same as 1st 2ns or 3rd. All of the postions seems to bog then build up speed but never shift. I fear the worst, My car has 52k miles and the trans clutch code has been coming on for almost a year. I fear My car is going to Just stop driving soon. The engine is strong. However the Tranny may be a gonner for sure. Any thoughts?

Submariner409
04-20-10, 10:22 AM
The 2000+ series of FWD 4T80E transmissions seems to suffer from the TCC solenoid problem as well as problems with the 1-2 and 2-3 shift solenoids.

There's a GM kit out which replaces the two shift solenoids and supplies a bracket to better support them.

The TCC and shift kit can be done with the transmission in the car, the end of the cradle dropped and suspension removed, but it's a bitch of a job.

tateos
04-20-10, 11:37 PM
Well I have been resetting the SES light for almost a 8 months now, On and off in city driving if in OD. I tired to drive only in 3rd to avoid the SES light. Last night. I was driving my car in 3rd gear. I was at a stop light on an slight incline, I went to give it gas and the car acted like it did not want to go. IF I floored it the car seemed to bog but no increase of speed. It seems like I have 3rd gear only. If I shift to 1st to take off the car doest seem to want to go but will if I give it a little gas and let build speed it will go. If I am in 1st gear on the column, I can give it gas and let it build up speed. It never shifts and I can go from zero to 75 no shifts.

I let the car sit over night, This morning the car shifted and drove fine, like nothing was wrong. I when I came home from work it was fine until the same incline as last night. Now the car seems to be again stuck in 3rd gear, However I can take off from OD the same as 1st 2ns or 3rd. All of the postions seems to bog then build up speed but never shift. I fear the worst, My car has 52k miles and the trans clutch code has been coming on for almost a year. I fear My car is going to Just stop driving soon. The engine is strong. However the Tranny may be a gonner for sure. Any thoughts?

My thought is that you will be getting the old P0741 problem resolved really soon - when you rebuild or replace the trans. Ranger is right about the shift solenoids. You're having a lot of trans problems for only 52K miles!

PS: Continuing to drive with the P0741 problem did NOT cause the other problems or harm your trans in any way

lobodks2
07-05-10, 05:04 PM
go to post 2294580

Submariner409
07-05-10, 05:16 PM
^^^ Refers to a practically identical thread by PhillyXcess which is currently running very close to this one.

The P0740, -41, -42, - 43 fix MAY be the TCC enable switch paired with the brake light switch at the top of the brake pedal mechanism. He says check that first.............

2001_Seville_SLS
07-12-10, 05:11 AM
The TCC and shift kit can be done with the transmission in the car, the end of the cradle dropped and suspension removed, but it's a bitch of a job.

It is not that hard to change the TCC solenoid. If you decide to fix the P1860 and P0741 codes by replacing the TCC PWM Solenoid Valve, there is no need to pull the transaxle or hang it on all threads. The valve can be replaced with the engine and transaxle in their original location. I posted a how to in Tech Tips. It will cost you about $50 and 4 to 6 hours of elbow grease.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...741-p1860.html (Malfunction Indicator Light with P0741 and P1860)

2001_Seville_SLS
07-12-10, 12:56 PM
Here is the correct link:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/203046-malfunction-indicator-light-p0741-p1860.html

ibm4mad
07-14-10, 03:40 AM
I read that process. Another forum user had a similar idea almost a year ago. The user was jab5999. I was shocked when he said he did that without dropping the trans but I think the idea got drowned out in the thread as the discussion moved on. I'm glad someone gave the idea more attention; this makes a fix more within reach.

I'm going to be dropping mine off to the dealership next week to get an estimate for several items, that TCC solenoid included since mine just went. This will be the 2nd deville in a row that I owned that had that happen. It'll be interesting to see what their quote is. Almost certainly would justify doing it myself though.

2001_Seville_SLS
07-14-10, 07:26 PM
Bummer. I thought I was the first. Oh well, it is hard to come up with something that has not already been done. I wouldn't be suprised if a bunch of dealer and tranny shop mechanics have already done it as well. Many of them get paid by the procedure rather than by the hour. $$$

Thanks for letting me know. I just read the thread, jab5999 did it on a 96 Deville last fall.