Walking by the news stand, they had the latest editions of Automobile, C&D, and MotorTrend. They looked good and thinking I was 16 again, I picked up all three. The wife and kids (1 and 3 yrs) seemed less than impressed when I dropped onto the couch to read ALL the material and pay little attention to anything else (with a confirming m-hmm anytime I was asked anything).

Getting back to the subject, the CTS-V is apparently going to spawn two versions, one with the new LS2 (yes the same 400hp, but with more low end grunt and area under the curve), and another at something approaching 500hp. This isn't new information per se, but more or less a confirmation of existing news. The question in my mind is whether the more powerful motor will be a supercharged LS2 or the "to be released next year" LS7. Apparently, the release dates are late next year, meaning 2006 models.

One of the mags mentioned the future V models, including a supercharged 4.6 Northstar engine for the STS-V and XLR-V... estimated 400-425hp. BTW the STS looks like a real competitor to the germans... apparently rides stiff, handles reasonably and accelerates well, and the interior is certainly nicer than much of the competition (unless you like 50-60 buttons or a joystick). Even better, they're apparently giving customers a real options list.... wheels, tires, axle ratios, etc (although there seems to be some nasty traditional GM packaging in there as well).

I commend Cadillac if their intention is to offer an alternative to M and AMG cars, rather than a copycat. If Caddy can stick with being simpler and a better value (related), they can create quite a reputation in short order. And they seemed to have sloted their cars as "in-betweeners" in the fact that the CTS slots in between the BMW 3 and 5, while the STS slots between the 5 and 7... and being in-between means you can appeal to either side.

Something they probably need to think about with the CTS-V (or STS-V for that matter) is a paddle controlled/clutchless manual transmission. Yes, is will be an expensive option, and probably take a few years to get to market, but in the LONG term a requirement to compete. Problem is that that paddles make alot of sense with 6 or 7 gears, but the Tremec T56 only has 5 "accelerative" gears (6th is just another overdrive for economy sake)... meaning the paddles don't offer as much of an advantage (IMHO).

And although I hate fussy and distrcting options and buttons, it seems like Caddy should put a 2 or 3 mode shock in future CTS-Vs. Again, I hate these things, but if they want to maintain a Caddy ride, then give us the option of stiffening up the suspension enough to overcome wheelhop issues. Heck, make it an expensive option if they like... I, the hater of gadgetry and buttons, will buy it.

btw if you look at engine dyno graphs of ls2 v ls6, you can clearly see that ls2 beats ls6 everywhere

So they are going to want $15k more than the GTO with the same HP? I'll keep my 04 then. They are also putting that motor in the SSR. The whole thing about driving the V is that it performs as well as a regular Corvette. If I want GTO perfomance I'll save the $15k and buy a GTO.:annoyed:

So they are going to want $15k more than the GTO with the same HP? I'll keep my 04 then. They are also putting that motor in the SSR. The whole thing about driving the V is that it performs as well as a regular Corvette. If I want GTO perfomance I'll save the $15k and buy a GTO.:annoyed:

Without pricing for the 05 GTO with LS2, it is tough to say... but yes, it will be cheaper.

The LS2 is a slight step up from the current LS6.

The CTS-V will no longer perform as well as a regular Vette, as the C6 arriving in the next months has the LS2 and weighs 700-800lbs less.

The V doesn't need to beat current Z06s or the upcoming C6 with the LS2. It does need to beat any pesky ricer or other boring bland metric family car.

Mission accomplished.

:worship: V

The V doesn't need to beat current Z06s or the upcoming C6 with the LS2. It does need to beat any pesky ricer or other boring bland metric family car.

Mission accomplished.

:worship: V
it should also beat the other gm cars excluding the v and maybe the ssr. but i don't think the ssr is ever going to be as fast as it should be.

Horsepower is like crack. How much is good enough? More is better, right?

Ten years ago we'd be lucky to buy a car that had 300 hp.

Now there's rumors of 400-650+. When does it end? When we have Keith Black nitro-burning Hemis under the hood?

Even if a '06 LS2 GTO is faster by over a second in the 1/4 mile compared to a '06 LS2 powered V, more power to them (no pun intended.) The GTO will never be in the same league as a V when it comes to the overall package.

i agree. the reason we see this is because gm competes in more areas than bmw and benz. i just think it would help if the v had the second most hp in the line. i think that would add some weight against the germans.

They have the LS6 in the V 5hp less then the LS6 in the ZO6, the GTO may have alittle lower hp then the next vette and V with the LS2. Again when the LS7 comes out, the V may have 5hp less then the next ZO6(still there HP flagship)

If you don't like the V...don't buy it? Dollar for dollar the performance and luxury can't be beat at the moment. If you want to buy a PONTIAC go ahead, it's still a Pontiac. There are other cars with 400hp that have MB logos too, not to mention Ferarri, etc. It comes down to personal preference. The V will not be the standard for cost-effective performance luxury indefinitely, and in reality it is meant to compare to an M3 not an M5 fully decked out. At $50k if it is putting out ~400hp with the nav, 4 doors, the styling and the features, who can argue? None of the other 400hp cars will touch that, the closest competitor at this point would be the Jag, and that is still another $15k, and ugly.

Don't forget the CTS-VPlus. Word has it that it is the Caddy version 'Blue Devil' Corvette.

Read this and see what you think:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=829650&page=1&pp=15&highlight=CTS

Rick at LesStanford in Dearborn, MI (where I bought my CTS :D ) is apparently taking orders for the C6 Z16 (yep, that be it's name :) ) already...
http://z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60212&page=8&pp=15
See post 117.

Okay, okay... I admit it may be rumor...
...but still... :D

FYI, I live in bowling green and there are so many C6 LS2 around here. My brother and I have raced a lot with his z06 and just blown them away. The C6 is still heavier but is suppose to be more air dynamic, but we still kill it. We raced auto and manuals C6. I know they aren’t broken in yet, but who knows. It was just bad. My CTS-V walked away from the C6 on the highway (it was an auto). Against the manual it was a great run. Side by side. So I don’t know about the dyno tests for LS6 vs LS2. The new C6 is suppose to run 12.6, but we where close when was racing at 30 and 60 mph. From a stop the auto got about one car length ahead then we staid with each other.

I Will not trade in my 04 for a 400hp LS2, I also will not pay $53k for a V with an LS2. I want a 4 door Vette, not something that a GTO will beat.

If you don't like the V...don't buy it? Dollar for dollar the performance and luxury can't be beat at the moment. If you want to buy a PONTIAC go ahead, it's still a Pontiac. There are other cars with 400hp that have MB logos too, not to mention Ferarri, etc. It comes down to personal preference. The V will not be the standard for cost-effective performance luxury indefinitely, and in reality it is meant to compare to an M3 not an M5 fully decked out. At $50k if it is putting out ~400hp with the nav, 4 doors, the styling and the features, who can argue? None of the other 400hp cars will touch that, the closest competitor at this point would be the Jag, and that is still another $15k, and ugly.
I agree, the V is the without a question the best bang for the buck. Also seems like with alittle bit of tuning it would rape the new V10 M5.

I Will not trade in my 04 for a 400hp LS2, I also will not pay $53k for a V with an LS2. I want a 4 door Vette, not something that a GTO will beat.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but an LS2 CTS-V would be about the same performance, if not a tick faster, than the current LS6.

And a LS2 GTO, assuming it weighed less than a V, would be faster than the current LS6 CTS-V. So what exactly are you saying? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

globed, my point exactly. With it just edging out the M3 and M5 now, and now the GTO with the same motor, it seems the GTO would be the best bang for the buck. The M3 has to get a HP bump and so should the V. 400hp just won't cut it for next year. I was already saving for the new V with the ZO7 motor and i'm sure GM doesn't want to lose selling me a $60k car. I'm sure the super V that is rumored to cost $80k will cost that much because of Carbon Fiber body panels, huge race only brakes, track tuned suspension, etc and will problably not be road friendly like the V is now.

quite honestly, the v comes with so much more than the gto it doesn't need to be faster. i think it should be. but i don't think it has to be. most people aren't going to get a gto instead of a v. it's mostly just going to be an ego thing for v owners. but if you're in the market for a v, you're not going to get a gto for just a little more speed due to a slightly lighter car.

it seems the GTO would be the best bang for the buck.
If the bang for your buck your talking about is HP yes, Luxary no. Comparing the GTO to a CTS-V is like comparing a Camaro to a M3-M5. The CTS-V is the best bang for your buck luxury sports car without question considering the competition and price. I can't say anything about the GTO because I have not seen nor been in one but it is probably taking over where the Camaro and Firebird left off.

Cliff

Cliff and T-dogg , I've owned about 7 f-bodies, and a Vette. If you take the DVD Nav out of the V, my 04 Silverado is just as luxurious and so was my Vette. If you are in the market for a performance car, is the V worth $20k more than a GTO? MAybe if you need the 4 doors and a nav system, but from most accounts I have seen, the GTO build quality is much better than an f-body. If the new V is going to be slower than both the new M3 and M5, sales will drop starting with mine. I want a 4 door "Luxury" corvette, not a 4 door luxury GTO.

GM (read Lutz) has plans to position Cadillac to compete (read beat) against marques much higher than Chevrolet. This means that the V cars set their sights on AMG, M, and other European brands to take back the position that Caddy once had. (this also includes adding to European sales)

This means the old rule of Corvette being king of the performance hill no longer holds water. Not that it won't be competitive in it's arena, it surely will, but unless your willing to ante up for the Blue Devil, price will dictate performance IMO.

I took a ride in a GTO last week. While I do not like the styling. It is fast and it has a fantastic interior. Just about the best seats I have seen and the construction quality is first rate. Check one out. The Aussies build a good car.

The GTO is a great car for the money and probably would have bought one instead of the V if it were not for the fuel tank tanking up a good chunk of the trunk. Buying a GTO would have given me a much bigger mod budget!

My point with the GTO isn't that I would actually go buy one, I've never driven one so I can't say that I would or wouldn't, but I would not trade in my 04 V for another 400hp V. At that point I would take a look elsewhere (like the GTO M3, etc). The V with its weight will problably never be faster than even a base Corvette, but it has to be AS FAST in my book or my money can be spent better elsewhere.

The V will not be the standard for cost-effective performance luxury indefinitely, and in reality it is meant to compare to an M3 not an M5 fully decked out.

Actually, the Cadillac engineers targeted the V at the M5 (in terms of size and performance)... They mentioned just as much on the SpeedTV special on the V.

I was on my way to test drive a silver GTO with a six speed. I had just gone around the "long test drive" track in an S60R. (nice car) The Cadillac dealer is right by the on ramp and I saw the V and changed lanes quickly to check it out. Couldn't belive the car, and I got out the check book and took it home.
Never did drive the goat!

The goat is only 350 hp right now. Its the 05 that will have a 400hp LS2 in it. Who knows when it will be out though because they have only sold around 3k units of the 18k units they ordered in 6 months.

Seems GM messed up on the pricing of the GTO. Supply and Demand would indicate that then will be discounting the '04's sometime soon. I would add , $28k( GTO Dis. Price ) + $6k ( Magnuson SC ) = A real Muscle Car!!

How about CTS-V sales? I cannot believe the '04's are all sold..

My take on the lack luster GTO sales was the greedy dealer markups. The car is attractive at sticker price, but not $40-45k that some dealers were asking. Now that the LS2 for next year's GTO has been leaked, its just like the current Corvette market, this years models are depreciating faster than current owners ever dreamed due to the lure of a much improved model in only a few months. Yet dealers still think an '04 GTO is worth sticker or more.

The V has had a similar fate - big dealer markups or "can't sell it for less than sticker" mentality still has many an '04 on the lots. With the 2005 already in production for many months, their pricing strategy will continue to see the 2004's not moving anytime soon unless they start discounting them.

The GTO isn't selling for many reasons. Dealer mark ups IMHO are the least reason why. There are plenty of dealerships who sell at sticker or below sticker right now. The main reason is the styling. It is damn boring and looks like every other pontiac design since 1988. The second reason is the price. I think GM didn't expect the Aussie $ to recover the way it did and I think GM thought they would sell more because it was the return of the GTO. Obviously dealers must have thought this too. For $33k I would get a new Cobra.

Yeah, but it would still be a Ford. :)

Earlier in this thread there were some speculations concerning paddle-shift systems. As the previous owner of a 2002 Maserati Cambiocorsa (which had an "improved" version of the Ferrari paddle system), I would like to explode this balloon.

Paddle-systems are good for one thing: zipping through the gears very fast in flat-out acceleration. But for that you might just as well have a regular 5- or 6-speed automatic and just keep the accelerator to the floor.

For normal driving, paddle-shifting is twitchy and jerky, even more so when you're downshifting. Coming to a complete stop means the mechanism will downshift itself through all six gears, allowing you and your passengers to do good neck imitations of walking pigeons all the way down.

For fast 2-lane twisty highway driving, the paddle would seem to be ideal - except that the paddles do not rotate with the steering wheel. When you are in a constant up/downshift driving mode, this means that you have to constantly take your left or right hand completely off the wheel to fumble for the appropriate paddle: not a good situation.

Reports from friends who have driven the Aston Martin Vanquish with its paddles are much the same - indeed that it is jerkier than the Ferrari's, which is jerkier than the Maserati's.

So my 2-cents-worth to Cadillac would be to keep the stickshift for the CTS-V, with the possible option of a 5- or 6-speed automatic.

I know that paddle systems are supposed to be "cutting edge", and pseudo-F1-glamorous, but to actually live with they are irritating, and something you have to keep making excuses for to your neck-snapped or carsick passengers.

M.A.

Good feedback, thanks for sharing. Part of the fun of driving a stick is rowing through the gears!

Plus in F1 cars the steering is usually less than 1 rotation lock-to-lock. That allows paddle or button-shifting on the wheel to be quick and natural. Much unlike in a vehicle requiring close to 3 trotations lock-to-lock.

Cliff and T-dogg , I've owned about 7 f-bodies, and a Vette. If you take the DVD Nav out of the V, my 04 Silverado is just as luxurious and so was my Vette. If you are in the market for a performance car, is the V worth $20k more than a GTO? MAybe if you need the 4 doors and a nav system, but from most accounts I have seen, the GTO build quality is much better than an f-body. If the new V is going to be slower than both the new M3 and M5, sales will drop starting with mine. I want a 4 door "Luxury" corvette, not a 4 door luxury GTO.
FWIW right now I'm leaning toward getting a V over the GTO. I'm waiting to see how I like the LS2 and restyled 2005 GTO, but I'm fairly sure I'll get the V instead. The reason being that the GTO interior being "nice" is IMOHO utter Crap. It's "Nice" if you're used to F-Bodies Vettes and other GM products, but it's crap compared to Audi, Infiniti, BMW and even !Gasp! VWs in that price range. The leather might as well be fake and plastics are hard and cheap. The Style is Okay IMOHO, but thats about all the good I have to say about that. For $18K more on the V you get:

Newer Chassis: The CTS-V is based on the Sigma platform which is the next generation GTO platform...though the GTO will ride on a revised Sigma called Zeta. This can be seen by the fact that desptie being more luxurious and bigger, the CTS-V weighs only a tick more.

More Features: The GTO has Zero options...not even a sunroof. The V has everything standard, including HID headlamps, and every feature the GTO doesn't have.

More Utility: the GTO trunk is worthless, the back seats are impossible to get in and out of.

More Sport: You get 18" wheels and Brembo brakes.

Styling: While not everyone likes the CTS-V and looks are a matter of taste at least the CTS-V makes some sort of statement.

IMOHO that is well worth the premium.

-Adam

well put.