: 2.3 Liter ZR1 supercharger for V2



s4ologist
05-12-09, 10:23 PM
Is anyone considering doing this, and how expensive would it be? The 2.3 L unit would move a bit more than 20% more air than our 1.9L unit holding pulley size constant. It just looks like folks are running into diminishing returns with cranking up the boost with the stock supercharger, and I wonder if running a larger unit would produce such boost levels (15+ psi) more efficiently.

Some of the GT500 guys are putting our 1.9L SC on their cars (with a 5.4L engine) and getting good results, so I wonder if a similar approach would work for us?

Any thoughts/plans?

OldDrummer55
05-12-09, 10:32 PM
Interesting concept... How much is the OEM ZR-1 supercharger?

s4ologist
05-12-09, 10:46 PM
LSA uses a 1.9L supercharger (Eaton R1900), LS9 uses a 2.3L supercharger (Eaton R2300), but I can't find prices for them.

OldDrummer55
05-12-09, 10:48 PM
LSA uses a 1.9L supercharger (Eaton R1900), LS9 uses a 2.3L supercharger (Eaton R2300), but I can't find prices for them.

Should be a direct bolt on, right? And wouldn't void the nefarious warranty?

RapidRob
05-12-09, 10:49 PM
^^^ Good question - I'm pretty sure I saw in another thread, that the OEM v2 blower costs about $1500.00, so I would imagine that the ZR1 blower would run some amount more than that - maybe close to $2 grand.

Ouchy !

Rob

s4ologist
05-12-09, 11:03 PM
Not cheap, to be sure. As it is, though, you have to be without your car for quite some time (several have quoted five days to me) to have the blower snout removed, sent to someone who can press the pulley off, replace and pin the new pulley, then get the snout back to the shop.

If you had a ZR1 blower, even if you wanted to change the pulley on that, it could be done before the car was dropped off, expediting the process.

Also, let's say that a hypothetical shop that did this sort of work also worked on dozens of other types of cars (some of which, like the GT500, have owners that might like to swap for our blower). Then perhaps our Eaton R1900 could then be sold to them or someone else to recoup some of the $$.

Razorecko
05-12-09, 11:07 PM
agreed i see this being a popular mod in the future....

OldDrummer55
05-12-09, 11:12 PM
So how much extra wear and tear, and how much more HP?

s4ologist
05-13-09, 12:17 AM
That's the $68k question, and one which pretty much guarantees that when I mod, I'll be sticking to worry free mods first (intake, exhaust, tune). Besides, I'm curious what the conservative mods will do for the car by themselves (without boost augmentation).

Lindsay Cadillac Parts
05-13-09, 08:18 AM
LS9 supercharger would be around $2800.00

idoitforv
05-13-09, 08:22 AM
Hey Lindsey, how much for the forged internals?

Titaniumseeker
05-13-09, 08:37 AM
LS9 supercharger would be around $2800.00

Lindsay,
Would the replacement of the LSA with the LS9 supercharger void any V2 warranties? What would be the labor hours and cost for installation?

demorgan59
05-13-09, 09:09 AM
LS9 supercharger would be around $2800.00
If that's everything from the manifold up, that's a deal. The rear end cooler, discounted, is about $2,200 if you can get it.

jvp
05-13-09, 09:15 AM
Would the replacement of the LSA with the LS9 supercharger void any V2 warranties?

So, let's think through this instead of asking, it's a fun mental exercise.

First, remember that it is against the law for GM to void your vehicular warranty in its entirety. Anyone that says otherwise (including GM) is plain wrong. The way the law works when it comes to modifications is: the auto maker is forced to prove that the modification you made is directly responsible for whatever is broken. If they manage to do that, they can only deny that specific warranty claim. They can NOT void the entire warranty.

Keep that in mind.

Now, let's move to swapping the supercharger. You're changing an integral part of the LSA motor with another part. Regardless of whether it's a GM part or not, you're making a modification. And, I'll bet a dollar that swapping the supercharger will also require a PCM reflash.

Hm.

You've just added more pressure to the engine, and you've completely reflashed the PCM. These are potentially very significant modifications that can have an effect on all parts of the power train. So let's imagine that after you get that done, something in your engine breaks. It won't be too difficult for your dealer to convince the powers that be, that the new supercharger and the computer reflash contributed to the problem (even if they didn't).

So. No. It won't "void your warranty" because that's illegal. But it will seriously impact how much warranty work you can get done on your power train. Unless you get a cool dealer that'll look the other way.

jas

Florian
05-13-09, 10:13 AM
So, let's think through this instead of asking, it's a fun mental exercise.

First, remember that it is against the law for GM to void your vehicular warranty in its entirety. Anyone that says otherwise (including GM) is plain wrong. The way the law works when it comes to modifications is: the auto maker is forced to prove that the modification you made is directly responsible for whatever is broken. If they manage to do that, they can only deny that specific warranty claim. They can NOT void the entire warranty.

Keep that in mind.

Now, let's move to swapping the supercharger. You're changing an integral part of the LSA motor with another part. Regardless of whether it's a GM part or not, you're making a modification. And, I'll bet a dollar that swapping the supercharger will also require a PCM reflash.

Hm.

You've just added more pressure to the engine, and you've completely reflashed the PCM. These are potentially very significant modifications that can have an effect on all parts of the power train. So let's imagine that after you get that done, something in your engine breaks. It won't be too difficult for your dealer to convince the powers that be, that the new supercharger and the computer reflash contributed to the problem (even if they didn't).

So. No. It won't "void your warranty" because that's illegal. But it will seriously impact how much warranty work you can get done on your power train. Unless you get a cool dealer that'll look the other way.

jas

I suspect MAF will need to be larger, and youre gonna need to move that air after its ingested, meaning larger exhaust. Plus a remap like jas said.


F

Razorecko
05-13-09, 10:19 AM
^ Thats the big guestion. I'm hoping that if you just slap it on as a straight swap that the increased boost pressure will just bump up the hp 50-60hp....Either way all that doesnt mean anything until the fuel issue is cleared up

Lindsay Cadillac Parts
05-13-09, 10:47 AM
Hey Lindsey, how much for the forged internals?

THE pistons are $89.00 each (for the LS9) what else I am forgetting?

wait4me
05-13-09, 10:48 AM
The swap will be a big one. I will be eventually doing the swap. Im just short on time to try it....

Lindsay Cadillac Parts
05-13-09, 11:18 AM
Lindsay,
Would the replacement of the LSA with the LS9 supercharger void any V2 warranties? What would be the labor hours and cost for installation?

Warranty is such a grey area. as mentioned by jvp it is "illegal" for a GM dealer to deny a warranty claim over an aftermarket or performance part as long as it did not directly cause the failure. with that said you should hear the horror stories I hear from customers around the country. I have a number of guys (more than one mind you) that have had to argue with a dealer to have a diff replaced under warranty just because they have a (insert brand here) exhaust. We are very mod freindly here at Lindsay....

idoitforv
05-13-09, 12:24 PM
I think the only other difference (LSA vs LS9) is the titanium valves

Lindsay Cadillac Parts
05-13-09, 12:35 PM
I think the only other difference (LSA vs LS9) is the titanium valves

Exhaust valves (LS9) are $28.24 and intake are $84.92 each

Razorecko
05-13-09, 12:36 PM
lol whyyyyyyyyy...i would have paid the $1k to get all the internals like the ls9

1-2-N-V
05-13-09, 04:10 PM
Man.... Put a pulley on it and run the hell out of her. When she breaks then fix it. My god. That's alot of money for the vette blower just to gain 50- 60 hp. And to take apart the motor for some forged pistons and titanium valves.....Fungula

wait4me
05-13-09, 04:25 PM
Dont forget all the front brackets and accessories and blower crank pulley that will be wrong with the zr1 blower.

PSRmark
05-13-09, 04:48 PM
Not to be the bad news bear, but the blower is not an easy swap. The snout lengths are different, the intercooler lines are at the back on a CTS-V and on the front on the ZR1. The T/B orientation is different as well.

here are some pictures to compare to.

We know about this because we have been working on putting this same combo together in the future. This would be for a high HP combo. IMO the 1900 is good for your average persone that wants a decent amount of power. The 2300 would be reserved for cars that want 800+



The 1900
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh30/d3mark1/X09PT_EP068.jpg

The 2300
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh30/d3mark1/X09PT_EP042.jpg

PSRmark
05-13-09, 04:53 PM
Dont forget all the front brackets and accessories and blower crank pulley that will be wrong with the zr1 blower.


Exactly Jesse.

Sorry, I was gathering the images and putting my post together at the same time you had posted so I didn't see it.

CIWS
05-13-09, 04:55 PM
I have a number of guys (more than one mind you) that have had to argue with a dealer to have a diff replaced under warranty just because they have a (insert brand here) exhaust. We are very mod freindly here at Lindsay....


Here's a twist on that. When I had the CTS-V and at the dealership discussing replacing the rear to solve the "grind at slow speed turns" TSB, the Service Advisor told me they could remove my aftermarket exhaust to replace the diff, but since it wasn't OEM/approved they could not put it back on the car because of responsibility for it then.

:wtf2:

Luna.
05-13-09, 05:43 PM
Hey Lindsey, how much for the forged internals?

Do the LS9 forged pistons work in the LSA?



lol whyyyyyyyyy...i would have paid the $1k to get all the internals like the ls9

Exactly. Somebody at GM ought to have their asses royally kicked for not putting similar internals in each engine. Because of sound? For the love of God...if people purchase this car and complain about the sound of the valvetrain/pistons, etc, I submit these people should be banned from purchasing high-performance cars... :dammit:

Titaniumseeker
05-13-09, 08:28 PM
. We are very mod freindly here at Lindsay....

Exactly one of the reasons why I purchaed my 09 CTS and CTS-V from your dealership:thumbsup:

Luna.
05-14-09, 03:10 PM
Do the LS9 forged pistons work in the LSA?




Thoughts?


I find it interesting that many people are talking about adding mad power to the LSA, but it doesn't seem to me that many people are very much worried about the stock pistons that reside within.

You want something like 600rwhp and want it to be reliable/live? I'd talk about going to forged pistons (& whatever other internals you want to replace) WAY BEFORE I'd even consider adding the LS9 supercharger...

idoitforv
05-14-09, 06:28 PM
thats my point exactly, I would think that forged internals would be one of the first mods for someone wanting alot of power eventually, even pushings past 600 rwhp thats already more then the ZR1 is pushing stock.

Hogg
05-15-09, 11:17 PM
Since both the LS9 and LSA have a compression ratio of 9.1:1, I'm going to guess that the forged LS9 pistons will retrofit into an LSA engine. The piston weights are different though whicjh will affect balancing, even moreso if you are retrofitting the Titanium rods as well.


Parts
LSA=cast hyereutectic pistons LS9=forged
LSA=nodular iron main bearing caps LS9=forged steel
LSA=forged PM connecting rods LS9=forged titanium rods
LSA= LS9=Titanium intake valve
LSA=LS9=hollow steel exhaust valve
LSA=High silicon / high moly cast iron exhaust manifold LS9=stainless steel
LSA=single element liquid/air I/C LS9=dual element liquid/air I/C

Misc.
LSA=1.9L/revolution roots type blower LS9 2.3L/rev. Roots type blower
LSA=6200rpm fuel shutoff LS9=6600rpm
LSA=single element liquid/air I/C LS9=dual element liquid/air I/C
LSA=556hp@6100rpm LS9=638hp@6500rpm(SAE CERTIFIED Power)
LSA=551 lb/ft torque@3800rpm LS9 604 lb/ft@3800rpm)

Not only does the LS9 have to put up with greater cylinder pressures which exert greater forces on the connecting rod during power stroke(forged steel main caps), it has to deal with the greater tensile forces approaching and following TDC than the LSA, due to the higher redline of the LS9. Hence the titanium rods.(stronger/lighter)

BOTH the LSA and LS9 have oil squirters that keep the pistons cool. So long as fueling is adequate and detonation is kept out of the equation, I dont beleive simply adding the larger 2.3 S/C is going to make the LSA's cast hyper pistons the limiting factor.

The 2.0 Turbocharged LNF used in the Saturn SKY Red Line, Solstice Coupe and Solstice GXP and the Chevrolet Cobalt SS and HHR SS are all rated at 260hp@5300rpm and 260 lb/ft from 2500-5250rpm(yes the torque is limited to 260 lb/ft between those rpms, the torque curve is a flatline).

Doing some math.
LS9 638hp from 6.2L=102.9hp/liter
LSA 556hp from 6.2L=89.67 hp/liter
LNF 260hp from 2.0L=130hp/liter

As you can see the LNF 4 cylinder engine produces 21% more power/liter than the LS9, and 32% more power/liter than the LSA engine does.
The LNF does this WITHOUT forged pistions, but with cast hypereutectic pistons, the same piston classification as the LSA engine does. Let it be noted that the LNF engines also uses oil squirters for the pistons.

The LNF engineers have been quoted as saying that there is "lots left in the LNF design". Higher outputs are only an ECM reflash away. The oil squirters are the key to these very high power to displacement ratios possible, so far as keeping the pistons happy.
I would have to guess that the LSA/LS9 designers would also have engineered the same "room for growth" that the LNF designers employed.

In all honesty, I beleive the actual longblock to be the last place to worry about so far as pushing the power envelope. Its the trans and rearend that I would be concentrating on, esp. when durability is a main concern.
The LS9 platform has the advantage here as the ZR1 ONLY comes equipped with a manual transmission.

Its not a coincidence that the 6L90e has a maximum torque capacity of 550lb/ft and max power capacity of 555hp.
When Cadillac decides to up the power of the CTSV(which it will) in the manual transmission CTCV's, they can dump the MH3 version of the TR6060 from the ZR1 which has a torque rating of 620 lb/ft vs the current CTSV's MG9 version, which is rated at 560 lb/ft torque.
Currently there isnt an automatic transmission in GM's arsenal that could harness more power/torque in the CTV's automatic applications.

So far as clutches, the ZR1 uses a Sachs 260mm twin disk/singlemass clutch/flywheel while the CTSV application uses a Luk 240mm twin disk/dual mass clutch/flywheel combo.

Any future power/torque increases to the CTV will require even more strengthening to the driveline components than a ZR1 would. Its not only the power/torque the component must transfer to propell the car forward that must be overcome, its the inertia of the vehicle itself. Unfortunatley the CTS-V simply has quite a bit more interia to overcome than the lighter ZR1.

Sorry for the book.

peace
Hog

Razorecko
05-15-09, 11:35 PM
Since both the LS9 and LSA have a compression ratio of 9.1:1, I'm going to guess that the forged LS9 pistons will retrofit into an LSA engine. The piston weights are different though whicjh will affect balancing, even moreso if you are retrofitting the Titanium rods as well.


Parts
LSA=cast hyereutectic pistons LS9=forged
LSA=nodular iron main bearing caps LS9=forged steel
LSA=forged PM connecting rods LS9=forged titanium rods
LSA= LS9=Titanium intake valve
LSA=LS9=hollow steel exhaust valve
LSA=High silicon / high moly cast iron exhaust manifold LS9=stainless steel
LSA=single element liquid/air I/C LS9=dual element liquid/air I/C

Misc.
LSA=1.9L/revolution roots type blower LS9 2.3L/rev. Roots type blower
LSA=6200rpm fuel shutoff LS9=6600rpm
LSA=single element liquid/air I/C LS9=dual element liquid/air I/C
LSA=556hp@6100rpm LS9=638hp@6500rpm(SAE CERTIFIED Power)
LSA=551 lb/ft torque@3800rpm LS9 604 lb/ft@3800rpm)

Not only does the LS9 have to put up with greater cylinder pressures which exert greater forces on the connecting rod during power stroke(forged steel main caps), it has to deal with the greater tensile forces approaching and following TDC than the LSA, due to the higher redline of the LS9. Hence the titanium rods.(stronger/lighter)

BOTH the LSA and LS9 have oil squirters that keep the pistons cool. So long as fueling is adequate and detonation is kept out of the equation, I dont beleive simply adding the larger 2.3 S/C is going to make the LSA's cast hyper pistons the limiting factor.

The 2.0 Turbocharged LNF used in the Saturn SKY Red Line, Solstice Coupe and Solstice GXP and the Chevrolet Cobalt SS and HHR SS are all rated at 260hp@5300rpm and 260 lb/ft from 2500-5250rpm(yes the torque is limited to 260 lb/ft between those rpms, the torque curve is a flatline).

Doing some math.
LS9 638hp from 6.2L=102.9hp/liter
LSA 556hp from 6.2L=89.67 hp/liter
LNF 260hp from 2.0L=130hp/liter

As you can see the LNF 4 cylinder engine produces 21% more power/liter than the LS9, and 32% more power/liter than the LSA engine does.
The LNF does this WITHOUT forged pistions, but with cast hypereutectic pistons, the same piston classification as the LSA engine does. Let it be noted that the LNF engines also uses oil squirters for the pistons.

The LNF engineers have been quoted as saying that there is "lots left in the LNF design". Higher outputs are only an ECM reflash away. The oil squirters are the key to these very high power to displacement ratios possible, so far as keeping the pistons happy.
I would have to guess that the LSA/LS9 designers would also have engineered the same "room for growth" that the LNF designers employed.

In all honesty, I beleive the actual longblock to be the last place to worry about so far as pushing the power envelope. Its the trans and rearend that I would be concentrating on, esp. when durability is a main concern.
The LS9 platform has the advantage here as the ZR1 ONLY comes equipped with a manual transmission.

Its not a coincidence that the 6L90e has a maximum torque capacity of 550lb/ft and max power capacity of 555hp.
When Cadillac decides to up the power of the CTSV(which it will) in the manual transmission CTCV's, they can dump the MH3 version of the TR6060 from the ZR1 which has a torque rating of 620 lb/ft vs the current CTSV's MG9 version, which is rated at 560 lb/ft torque.
Currently there isnt an automatic transmission in GM's arsenal that could harness more power/torque in the CTV's automatic applications.

So far as clutches, the ZR1 uses a Sachs 260mm twin disk/singlemass clutch/flywheel while the CTSV application uses a Luk 240mm twin disk/dual mass clutch/flywheel combo.

Any future power/torque increases to the CTV will require even more strengthening to the driveline components than a ZR1 would. Its not only the power/torque the component must transfer to propell the car forward that must be overcome, its the inertia of the vehicle itself. Unfortunatley the CTS-V simply has quite a bit more interia to overcome than the lighter ZR1.

Sorry for the book.

peace
Hog

Are you saying that the tremec 6spd manual is a weaker version of the zr1's trans ? I thought it was the exact duplicate

Luna.
05-15-09, 11:48 PM
Awesome thoughts Hog, I enjoyed reading that

ericpd
05-16-09, 10:06 AM
Are you saying that the tremec 6spd manual is a weaker version of the zr1's trans ? I thought it was the exact duplicate

So did I,... excepting the 6060 in the V was front in-back out, and the unit in the ZR1 was front in-side out. Other than that, I also was under the impression they were identical.

idoitforv
05-16-09, 12:04 PM
That was a good info hog thanxs man

Hogg
05-16-09, 09:20 PM
There are some differences, in addition to the ratio differences.


peace
Hog