: From M3 Forum- M3 vs CTSV



kencav
05-07-09, 05:27 PM
Per my status as a recent M3 owner-enjoy the link below

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=234496&highlight=2009+cts-v

haterinc
05-07-09, 05:31 PM
uggh... haters lol

commander112
05-07-09, 06:29 PM
Actually there was plenty of respect over there for the V. More than I expected. Afterall it is the M3 forum and it is where they chose to spend their money. We give them respect here. They have a great car but for me, I will support the American companies until they are all gone.

neuronbob
05-07-09, 08:11 PM
I like the M3 and M5, too, and give them their props as they are smoking fast, awesome-handling cars. However, the V is simply on another level of performance. I absolutely love this car. And this time, I chose to support American manufacturers instead of Honda.

kencav
05-07-09, 09:03 PM
The reason I posted this is their IS a tremendous amount of respect amongst numerous BMW guys for the V- the literally scolded many of their fellow board members for some pretty ignorant comments

haterinc
05-07-09, 09:07 PM
Maybe I shouldve read more than the first page but that was enough for me.

Razorecko
05-07-09, 09:10 PM
I can't say that for alot of the mb guys. MB is like god almighty to them.

CIWS
05-07-09, 11:51 PM
Why should anyone care about what's posted about the car on another forum that isn't related to it ?


Why is some new member posting links to other forums that talk shat ? Trying to stir up trouble ?

end9472
05-08-09, 12:38 AM
Having owned both an E-39 M5 and an '05 CTS-V (and taking delivery of a new '09 V next week) both the BMW and Cadillac are great cars. The M3 has been the standard for luxury performance coupes (and sedans) for many years.

The M5 is more comparable to the V and is a helluva car. I was very reluctant to get a bimmer because I associated it with yuppie snobs who were more concerned about image than the actual car. (Of course, in all honesty, I never thought I'd own a Caddy either - at least before I turned 65) I bought my M5 after selling my first V - which opened my eyes to the fact that there were a number of performance cars out there beyond a Corvette (my previous rides). I will say the fit and finish of the M5 was superior to my '05 V. And the interior was light years ahead. The new V has closed that gap substantially. But IMO, the LS6 motor was better - not as refined as the BMW, but better in output, sound, and overall performance (and I tracked both cars).

I get BMW's now (especially the M versions). Great cars. But a little too sterile IMO. For me , nothing beats good ole American muscle especially when they stuff one of the biggest and baddest V-8's into a mid-sized sedan :thumbsup:. . . Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

cts-me
05-08-09, 01:20 AM
The amount of euro-snobbery in bmw forums is amazing. It never ceases to amaze me, BMW's are great cars, but since ive been a member of m3post.com ive noticed just how arrogant and closed minded these guys are. They cant accept the fact that they payed 5 grand more (for the m3, which is a inferior car) or even 30 grand more for an m5 (which is an inferior performer)

these guys need to stop being so naive and for once accept defeat.

Tasos
05-08-09, 01:31 AM
After reading all 18 pages on the BMW forum I'm thoroughly convinced there are a lot of uninformed, uneducated people over there. That being said, there are quite a few people that at least think before they speak. And let's give BMW kudos for a recent history of building great vehicles, but an opinion is just that, an opinion. Facts, such as acceleration, handling, lap times, braking are hard to argue against, unless of course you're on the losing end and cannot accept the results. There were quite a few early assumptions about the V, and maybe fairly so, when looking at its early history. But this V is a completely different animal. This is not your father's Cadillac. It is becoming the standard of the world. If you look at reliability studies, auto magazine reviews & comparisons, even resale value, the CTS is winning most of those battles. Sadly the Koreans are even schooling the Germans at build quality. Not sure who said history will repeat itself, but if you recall, this is not the first time that German superiority has faltered.

Razorecko
05-08-09, 01:37 AM
^ lol, guys, bmw forums are literally like best pals compared to the mb forums. Eric can vouch for that one.

kencav
05-08-09, 01:51 AM
The new member posted this because the RESPECT afforded this car in my previous forum played a significant role in my decision to get one- ya got it?

Stingray23
05-08-09, 01:59 AM
The Mercedes guys are worse. Especially the C63 group. They think their car is the shit. They're just upset nobody talks about their cars anymore so they come up with stupid excuses like,"its American", "its a Cadillac", "its for old men" etc........ So pathetic.

cts-me
05-08-09, 01:59 AM
I can't say that for alot of the mb guys. MB is like god almighty to them.

BTW razor, tell wuyichao on that m3 forum that if he wants to see a CTS-V, that i have one and go to school in the glen cove area.

that way, he can speak from experience and not from his ass.

Caddyscat
05-08-09, 02:08 AM
RAZORECKO - your black chrome wheels look absolutely gorgeous on the car! I never saw the black wheels on the car in this forum! :worship::highfive::v:

Hondarrr
05-08-09, 06:44 AM
Per my status as a recent M3 owner-enjoy the link below

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=234496&highlight=2009+cts-v

Wellcome to Cadillac...I think that you have made the perfect choice, I drove my friends 08 85K M5 and I didn't like it at all, I do own a 545I and it's so different than the M5, smoth ride, that's why I love my CTS-V, besides the performance,,lol..

Hondarrr
05-08-09, 06:47 AM
Ohh one more thing that I have to say, BMW site is way FASTER than this site...god this thing is SLOW....

CIWS
05-08-09, 08:27 AM
The new member posted this because the RESPECT afforded this car in my previous forum played a significant role in my decision to get one- ya got it?

I don't know man, reading through what you posted it seems RESPECT is a bit lacking.

Razorecko
05-08-09, 09:56 AM
I don't know man, reading through what you posted it seems RESPECT is a bit lacking.

Trust me ...having more than 3 euro owners backing up the V in a euro forum is respect :thumbsup:

kencav
05-08-09, 12:43 PM
Once you wade thru the idiots the more intellegent people I believe are very complimentary- shows you what I had to deal with over there!

CTSV_510
05-08-09, 06:25 PM
The amount of euro-snobbery in bmw forums is amazing.

:yeah:

I've never been there before until now, and it's almost like they're joking, but they're not. Those people are a superior race. :bigroll:

Luna.
05-08-09, 10:19 PM
I feel dumber after reading that thread...

tblack
05-09-09, 01:59 AM
Well I guess I should pipe up here:

I have a 2008 Alpine White BMW M3 Coupe and it is a phenomenal car! No questions asked, hands down one of the best car I've ever owned. It handles beautifully, I love the design and it's high revving engine is simply breathtaking. There's a great sense of pagentry with all the buttons and the different modes and all of the different ways you can set up your car to drive. It sounds great at wide open throttle and it accelerates strong from 4k 5pm to redline. One of my tell-tale signs of knowing if I love one of my cars is seeing how the ladies react to it, and they all loved it.......

But one day....

A girl friend of mine asked me why I sold my Cadillac. I really didn't have an answer for her. Then another one asked a few weeks later. Then another one asked why I sold my Escalade, I told her that I prefer cars to trucks and so she said "well what about that black car, that was hot"

I went and checked out the new V and it was as nice as I expected, I though the interior looked better than my M but I still preferred the feel of the BMW. The handling and braking numbers were as good as the BMW if not better. But it wasn't until I drove one that I fell back in love and found myself back on this site reading about how you guys have been have all this fun without me.

But I think I figured it out.....
There's something about a black on black vicious angry rumbling Cadillac that I just can't replace. I've owned 2 CTS-V's in my life and nothing haunts me the way my 2005 CTS-V with the magnaflow exhaust. I think what I'm missing the most is torque. The torque that would make your female passenger shut the hell up for a second if you punched it in the middle of her sentence. The torque that would make even your most catholic friends utter blasphemy. The torque that let the diesel truck beside you know that they're not getting to that upcoming merge before you.

I'm getting tired of having to rev my car to 7k rpm to ward off a teenager in a Cobalt SS so he didn't go tell his buddies that he beat a new M3. In the M3 I feel like there are too many lowly cars that could take a shot at me and feel as though they were worthy of me actually trying. The worst part is, the majority of cheaper competitors come from BMW! (ie. 335i, 135i or 535i)

I'm planning on selling the M3 and getting a black on black 6M V and getting a corsa exhaust.

Oh and don't let anyone tell you only American cars depreciate, I bought my M3 in June for $88k (cdn) and I'll be lucky if I get $65k (cdn)

Hondarrr
05-09-09, 05:29 AM
Good story guy,,, You are making the correct move,,I wish I can sell my cars but I just can't, honestly the only ones I need is my CTS-V and my truck, I don't need the BMW nor the SRT8 any more, I got both combine on my CTS-V and then some more,,,but I just can't sell them I don't have the heart for it...

kencav
05-09-09, 06:49 AM
Tblack- this is EXACTLY why I sold my M3- I felt rather silly constantly havi ng to justify its performance by revving it to 7000rpm. As a daily driver it cant compare to the CTSV.... you have the power and drag ability of an old muscle car that can satisfy you in the twisties at will.
Oh and resale- something the BMW guys were making a big stink about- it sucks just as bad regretably for the M3- i took a bit of a hit but as I am a car guy do not regret the choice to get the daddy one bit

kencav
05-09-09, 06:51 AM
that would be caddy not daddy Tblack

CIWS
05-09-09, 10:16 AM
Almost every new car depreciates, it's only a question of how much , how fast. Someone here had posted a link to a person in FL selling his 2005 MB CL65 with 38K miles on it, which new sold for around 180K, he was asking the low 40s. Multiple M5 owners have also posted their stories here of what they are seeing for selling prices of their cars, and the same is true. It is simply the fact of the business and anyone who thinks differently is only fooling themselves.

Ronin
05-09-09, 12:39 PM
Almost every new car depreciates, it's only a question of how much , how fast. Someone here had posted a link to a person in FL selling his 2005 MB CL65 with 38K miles on it, which new sold for around 180K, he was asking the low 40s. Multiple M5 owners have also posted their stories here of what they are seeing for selling prices of their cars, and the same is true. It is simply the fact of the business and anyone who thinks differently is only fooling themselves.

Those numbers are way off...an '09 CL65 (there were no 65s in '05, they were 55s...HUGE difference) loaded/new is pushing $200K+ NOW. My '05 S55 AMG sold new in '05 for $140K +/-, and that was the AMG's flagship sedan. The pricing on the CL and S models are comparable, so those numbers are at least $40K off. 40s for an '05 CL55 with that mileage is about spot on.

Bottom line it doesn't matter what "specialty" vehicle it is, BMW M-series, M-B AMGs, Audi R/Ss, Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep SRTs ad infinitum, ad nauseum...the depreciation the first couple of years is monsterous. I'm looking at an '08 STS-V with 9K miles that stickered around $80K, and the dealer is starting the price at under $50K. That's at least $30K in depreciation that I don't have to worry about and it's essentially a brand new car...

CIWS
05-09-09, 07:42 PM
Those numbers are way off...an '09 CL65 (there were no 65s in '05, they were 55s...HUGE difference) loaded/new is pushing $200K+ NOW.

Hmmm, interesting. It would seem Motor Trend disagrees with you.

2005 Mercedes-Benz CL65 AMG
Base price - $178,220
Vehicle layout - Front engine, RWD, 2-door, 4-pass coupe
Engine - 600 twin-turbo V-12, SOHC, 3 valves/cyl


http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0412_2005_mercedes_benz_cl65/specifications.html


If I find the link to the sale, and it's still active/there I'll post it. We remember it specifically because it was so shocking to see that level of depreciation on the car.



I'm looking at an '08 STS-V with 9K miles that stickered around $80K, and the dealer is starting the price at under $50K. That's at least $30K in depreciation that I don't have to worry about and it's essentially a brand new car...

I bought mine "used" with 180 miles on the odometer as Certified Pre-Owned. It's definitely the way to buy them, as will the new CTS-V be in a year or so. :)

OldRoadDawg
05-09-09, 08:28 PM
I bought mine "used" with 180 miles on the odometer as Certified Pre-Owned. It's definitely the way to buy them, as will the new CTS-V be in a year or so. :)

+1
Found a certified 09 CTS-V w/6900 mi on AutoTrader for $51+K
So they're coming down.

ericpd
05-09-09, 08:35 PM
Actually there was plenty of respect over there for the V. More than I expected. Afterall it is the M3 forum and it is where they chose to spend their money. We give them respect here. They have a great car but for me, I will support the American companies until they are all gone.

You're right,... I found more respect than expected as well. I think most of the hate towards the V comes from the C63 crowd. At least I got beat up over there. Maybe some of you guys faired a little better.

Ronin
05-09-09, 08:48 PM
Hmmm, interesting. It would seem Motor Trend disagrees with you.

2005 Mercedes-Benz CL65 AMG
Base price - $178,220
Vehicle layout - Front engine, RWD, 2-door, 4-pass coupe
Engine - 600 twin-turbo V-12, SOHC, 3 valves/cyl


http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0412_2005_mercedes_benz_cl65/specifications.html


If I find the link to the sale, and it's still active/there I'll post it. We remember it specifically because it was so shocking to see that level of depreciation on the car.




I bought mine "used" with 180 miles on the odometer as Certified Pre-Owned. It's definitely the way to buy them, as will the new CTS-V be in a year or so. :)

My apologies; I stand corrected. Owning an AMG does not (obviously) make one an AMG expert, I was confuzzling '04 and '05; '05 was the first year of the AMG 65s with the V-12 bi-turbo 604 HP/738 ft/lbs torque motor.

First year depreciation on those cars is unbelievable...a $200+K car that can be had a model year old with minimal miles for $70K cheaper...easy!

As much as I love the new CTS-V I'm really feeling the STS-V...might be too good to pass up on!

Luna.
05-09-09, 09:22 PM
But I think I figured it out.....
There's something about a black on black vicious angry rumbling Cadillac that I just can't replace. I've owned 2 CTS-V's in my life and nothing haunts me the way my 2005 CTS-V with the magnaflow exhaust. I think what I'm missing the most is torque. The torque that would make your female passenger shut the hell up for a second if you punched it in the middle of her sentence. The torque that would make even your most catholic friends utter blasphemy. The torque that let the diesel truck beside you know that they're not getting to that upcoming merge before you.

I'm getting tired of having to rev my car to 7k rpm to ward off a teenager in a Cobalt SS so he didn't go tell his buddies that he beat a new M3. In the M3 I feel like there are too many lowly cars that could take a shot at me and feel as though they were worthy of me actually trying. The worst part is, the majority of cheaper competitors come from BMW! (ie. 335i, 135i or 535i)


AMEN on the bolded part. I really, really like the M3 and that car was very, very high on my short list of performance cars to purchase. But I agree 100%--it's missing the torque. Now, it makes up for a lot of that shortcoming by doing more "work" per foot lb of torque (basically, spinning the hell out of the motor), but that's not for me for everyday driving.

I'd also add something totally subjective and that's the fact that exhausts notes sound better to me when coming from a powerful V8, like a muscle car, rather than an engine that sounds like a sewing machine on steroids. Now, this does NOT mean that the M3s don't sound good at WOT, but rather I just love installing a Corsa/Zoomers/B&B, etc. on a powerful V8 engine and getting a little "old-school" exhaust notes. You just can't get that from a 6-banger and, heck, I'm not sure you'd want to anyways. "RPM engines" are designed with a different mindset from the beginning.

Put another way, an '09V with, say, a Corsa won't even require the owner to do much of anything to have onlookers raise an eyebrow as if to say, "Damn..." I'm not sure I've gotten that reaction from ever driving an M3, but, perhaps, that is just me. Then again, M3s have a different advantage, especially (in my experience) with females...




Oh and don't let anyone tell you only American cars depreciate, I bought my M3 in June for $88k (cdn) and I'll be lucky if I get $65k (cdn)

:yeah:

Luna.
05-09-09, 09:28 PM
+1
Found a certified 09 CTS-V w/6900 mi on AutoTrader for $51+K
So they're coming down.

That's not good.

I hope the friggin price stays at a nice, high level. Hell, I wouldn't mind if many dealers still get significant markups on them. I know of a few in So Cal that are STILL (to this day) marking them up, OVER MSRP, and while they negotiate the discount, they are still collecting some of it. While I do shake my head at the lameness of these customers, I must secretly applaud the sales effort...

Some '04-'05 V owners learned REALLY FAST that when they argued seemingly at the top of their lungs that such-and-such V wasn't worth X dollars, they were slitting their owns wrists...:bigroll:

CIWS
05-10-09, 10:51 AM
First year depreciation on those cars is unbelievable...a $200+K car that can be had a model year old with minimal miles for $70K cheaper...easy!

As much as I love the new CTS-V I'm really feeling the STS-V...might be too good to pass up on!

I couldn't find the old link that was posted before, but here's another in the ballpark that's this price at a dealership.

http://www.internetautoguide.com/usedcars/14-int/2005/mercedes-benz/cl-class/california/san-jose/226331026/113/index.html?filter=VehicleMake|Mercedes-Benz|VehicleModel|CL-Class|VehicleSubmodel|CL65+AMG|VehicleUsedIncludeC arsDotCom|1|&sortby=&index=3&pagenum=1&sourcePageType=drill_mms&numListings=15&nopaging=false



I love my STS-V, yeah the 09 CTS-V is a hell of a car no doubt and cheaper (new for new), but there's still a bit more room in the STS-V and pretty soon the new CTS-V will out number them on the road making the STS-V just that much more rare. I already see more V2s on the road around here than STS-Vs :)

tblack
05-10-09, 01:30 PM
Tblack- this is EXACTLY why I sold my M3- I felt rather silly constantly havi ng to justify its performance by revving it to 7000rpm. As a daily driver it cant compare to the CTSV.... you have the power and drag ability of an old muscle car that can satisfy you in the twisties at will.
Oh and resale- something the BMW guys were making a big stink about- it sucks just as bad regretably for the M3- i took a bit of a hit but as I am a car guy do not regret the choice to get the caddy one bit


Thanks Kencav, Good to know.

I'm looking forward to getting back in a V. It will be the third time.

05 Black Raven V
07 Platinum V
Hopefully ......09 Black Raven V

:rolleyes:

taxnamxat
05-11-09, 11:09 PM
I just purchased the CTS-V 6m last month. I also own a 2008 e93 M3 6m and a 2009 e90 M3 with the MDCT. I am a performance car junky and I traded an '06 z51 vette for the e93. Prior to that I owned a 2005 s2000 that I tracked. I can tell you that the M3's and the Cadillac have similiar power and acceleration just delivered differently. I love a high revving broad power band and the M3 delivers that brilliantly. The engine note is incredible---it does not sound like a sewing machine as some have suggested. You need to know how to drive a high revving engine to get the most enjoyment. The CTS-V satisfies my lust for torque and rumble from the exhaust and the V also handles incredibly when pushed hard. It seems tame until you push it hard into a curve --any rotation of the rear end can simply be straightend out with some throttle. It has power in every gear. These are all great cars. As far as resale goes they all suck. Cars are not investments they are depreciating assets. The V may have some hope for appreciation in about 30 years if you can still get parts. Hell you can buy 20 year old ferraris for reasonable money and they still have not "appreciated" and they are the essence of a low volume car. So drive it and enjoy it, don't save it for someone else to buy and take the loss. I have seen people trade cars that cost $200k for half their original cost with only $5k miles. Truly a waste. So I can say that I love the V and M and I dont need to trash either---anything with the performance that these cars are capable should be appreciated.

Luna.
05-12-09, 03:43 PM
The engine note is incredible---it does not sound like a sewing machine as some have suggested.

You forgot the "on steroids" part, that's key. :thepan: