: A lot less black soot in the tailpipe with w4m tune



jwa999
05-02-09, 03:58 PM
Ever since I got the car, i noticed the inside of the tailpipes are always covered in black soot. I've never seen a car emit so much of it. Must be running pretty rich.
So it was a pleasant surprise today that I could still see the inside of the tailpipe after I washed the car this morning and drove it for around 30 miles. Usually they are completely black after the 15 mile trip from home to work. The inside of the tips are gorgeous, but nobody ever gets a chance to see it.

I get the impression my MPG is better, except that the tune makes the car wanna go even more :thumbsup:

Hans.

verbs
05-02-09, 04:09 PM
Richer tune = more soot. Leaner tune (w4m) = less soot

Short-Throw
05-04-09, 12:44 AM
I get the impression my MPG is better, except that the tune makes the car wanna go even more :thumbsup:

Hans.

They are made rich to protect the catalyst. If you start to hear exhaust rattle noises (from the catalyst bricks melting down) - you'll know why.

As far as MPG being better, I'll believe it when I see it. I just don't see this being possible.


Mike

FreddyG
05-04-09, 03:19 AM
They are made rich to protect the catalyst. If you start to hear exhaust rattle noises (from the catalyst bricks melting down) - you'll know why.

As far as MPG being better, I'll believe it when I see it. I just don't see this being possible.


Mike

Can I ask why you don't think that it could get better?

An engine is nothing more than a glorified air pump and if you tune it to use the fuel more efficiently, wouldn't that mean the mileage goes up?

Just asking, because it makes sense in my little mind! :cheers:

GMX322V S/C
05-04-09, 03:35 AM
They are made rich to protect the catalyst...Mike, do you mean by guarding against misfires (which would dump raw gas into the exhaust)? Cats run hotter the more unspent fuel you throw at them; running them leaner gives them "less to work with," so if anything, they should run cooler...

GMX322V S/C
05-04-09, 04:56 AM
Found this in the tuning section over at LS1Tech (topic had to do with Predator handheld):

"COT Protection Off Road use only!
Catalytic Overtemp Protection (COT) is used to add fuel to cool down the catalytic converters and it should be disabled only when the catalytic converters are removed."

Another post in the same forum said the enrichment comes at WOT. Wow, learn something new every day...

jwa999
05-04-09, 02:04 PM
Here's some interesting reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_mixture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

It's counter intuitive, but a leaner mix burns hotter:

"A stoichiometric mixture has just enough air to completely burn the available fuel."
"A stoichiometric mixture unfortunately burns very hot and can damage engine components if the engine is placed under high load at this fuel air mixture."
"As a consequence stoichiometric mixtures are only used under light load conditions. For acceleration and high load conditions, a richer mixture (lower air-fuel ratio) is used to produce cooler combustion products and thereby prevent detonation and overheating of the cylinder head."

From what I read on the Catalyst, It looks like it needs a richer mixture to be able to convert the NOx, but too rich a mixture can cause a meltdown.

"When there is more oxygen than required, then the system is said to be running lean, and the system is in oxidizing condition. In that case, the converter's two oxidizing reactions (oxidation of CO and hydrocarbons) are favoured, at the expense of the reducing reaction. When there is excessive fuel, then the engine is running rich. The reduction of NOx is favoured, at the expense of CO and HC oxidation."

"Some newer systems do not employ air injection. Instead, they provide a constantly varying mixture that quickly and continually cycles between lean and rich to keep the first catalyst (NOx reduction) from becoming oxygen loaded, and to keep the second catalyst (CO oxidization) sufficiently oxygen-saturated. They also utilize several oxygen sensors to monitor the exhaust, at least one before the catalytic converter for each bank of cylinders, and one after the converter. Some systems contain the reduction and oxidation functions separately rather than in a common housing."

So I wonder what the w4m tune effect is on Engine/exhaust temps and Catalyst efficiency.

Hans.

GMX322V S/C
05-04-09, 03:45 PM
That is interesting, Hans. I knew running lean could burn valves and hole pistons, but everything I read about cat failure pretty much said the cat would simply become ineffective. Maybe there's a delicate ballet going on--extremely rich conditions can lead to catastrophic failure, while too lean of a condition can cause more long-term stress?

Anyway, I can confirm your observation of less soot buildup inside the tips with the tune in place.

Cadillac Tony
05-04-09, 04:21 PM
Back in my RX8 days there were tons of problems with the early cars flooding due to the catalyst protection. They ran the car pig rich to keep the EGTs low and not fry the cats, but people who'd start the car and then shut it off without running it for 15 minutes had a flooded engine on their hands. Even if you didn't flood the car, the tips were still black as midnight after a day or two of driving.

Later PCM calibrations that Mazda released to fix the flooding problem also greatly reduced the soot buildup on the pipes and increased average MPG, so I'd agree with your assessment of less soot and better MPG being a result of the w4me tune.

Short-Throw
05-04-09, 04:50 PM
Can I ask why you don't think that it could get better?

An engine is nothing more than a glorified air pump and if you tune it to use the fuel more efficiently, wouldn't that mean the mileage goes up?

Just asking, because it makes sense in my little mind! :cheers:

Let's try to keep this simple.

First of all, so nobody gets the wrong idea, I think modding cars is fun and as long as the owner doesn't mind spending his dime and accept warranty denial, I say mod away.

The problem is for anybody to buy a given mod there has to be reasons to spend the dough. The truth is most minor cheap mods do not yield anything worthwhile. This in turn has shops disseminating unsupported claims.

Now:

As far as better fuel economy, here is why I have doubts:


Please tell me what has been done to fundamentally change the operating efficiency of the engine?

What A/F ratio is being employed under cruise control conditions?

Are there any hardware changes that affect pumping losses?

3rd party unbiased testing would be a breath of fresh air, but hard to find.

As enthusiasts, we all want better and faster and we are just too willing to believe everything we hear.

When I was building my race car I inquired about how much HP it would yield on the Chassis dyno (vs an engine dyno) from the head tech. He responded by saying, "What ever you want it to be".

I'm happy to post my 30 MPG, 1200HP factory freak bone stock CTS-V dyno sheet any time!



Mike

wait4me
05-04-09, 04:57 PM
All im doing it just fixing the 10.0 i see on tip in that the factory tune was doing. 10 is WAY to rich for any car/situation. Well gasoline anyways, E85 is obviously different. I am not changing stioch points or any normal mode operation other than that tip in issue. I move the tip in to 13s. that is why it feels better. The coeficients are not quiet set right from the factory. I just tweek them to make them exact. I dont touch any of the cat over temp protection algorithms, Which add fuel at wot when they get hot. So the car will still command the same value at wot if it needs to.. These motors are not new technology by any means, nor are cats. I have cars with 150,000 miles on them that i tuned the same exact ways..

Formula57
05-04-09, 09:56 PM
All im doing it just fixing the 10.0 i see on tip...

What is "tip?"

GMX322V S/C
05-04-09, 10:30 PM
Throttle tip-in; opening the throttle from the fully closed position.

wait4me
05-04-09, 11:26 PM
Correct. Throttle tip in is opening the throttle blade from a steady state. The E67 controller uses a MAF/ coefficient blend for fuel transistions. If the airflow and throttle % are steady then the controller uses the MAF more as it is considered the stable at that point. A maf can not see a pressure drop so the computer relies on map sensor and TPS to determine if it is valid.

On a tip in, there is a pressure drop and the ecm will then use a Blend of Calculated Ve and actual maf frequency. All works well when you have the Ve and maf close. The ecm will setup coefient Zones for the amount of ERROR it has between actual o2 sensor feedback and Maf and Ve values to set itself up for a 14.7 on steady state. This is an awsome system but has to be matching in order for it to always be correct.

Since the new e38 and e67 engine controllers dont have a real Ve table for say, They are alot harder to fine tune like the older P59 or earlier ls1 based engine controllers.

The e67 for example has 30 zones. So the computer uses those zones as a reference. They are user defined with RPM and engine KPA.

1000
1750
2500
3250

Are the rpm break points, and the kpa break points are :
30.000000 45.000000 60.000000 75.000000 90.000000
30.000000 47.000000 64.000000 81.000000 98.000000
30.000000 50.000000 70.000000 90.000000 110.000000
30.000000 52.000000 74.000000 96.000000 118.000000
30.000000 54.000000 78.000000 100.000000 124.000000


That makes a table plot for the values on where you know where to make your changes..

Now where the math comes in. To calculate Ve tables on the values on coeficents are a pain without the right tools or software.. Once you know where you want to be fixing your "virtual" ve zone you have to pin point the zone based on the values in the Bin file. Then you have to make your changes and then re calculate the values and then put them in the right spot. I set up a pid to automatically do this for efilive software if people here want it. It basically takes input from a serial output 5 gas analizer and ltrims and just builds a whole new table.. The more you drive the better it makes the car drive. It just makes it smoother, more accurate, and more exact when the ecm trys to command an exact AFR, it is ALOT closer to its targer air fuel ratio. So when you command an 11.4, it goes right to 11.4...

GMX322V S/C
05-04-09, 11:55 PM
Thanks for the correction Jesse :o --so without your tune, every time we'd crack the throttle after holding it steady we'd be sending a puff of enriched exhaust into the cats? Is this where the soot came from (unburned stuff actually gets past the cats)?

rjoffe
05-05-09, 11:36 AM
Can you guys comment on why after market tuning on a stock setup is required ? I'm not questioning the results, and completely understand the tune requirements if any mods are made. Just curious why the factory stock setup seems to be so far off of "ideal"

Thanks,

Ron

jwa999
05-05-09, 01:15 PM
This went into my reasoning to get the w4m tune. I've never modded or tuned any of my cars before. They all seemed to work fine from the factory. And i've always driven stick shifts.

The caddy's automatic transmission to me was very slugish. I compared it to my wife's M45, which always seems to be in the right gear.
I absolutely couldn't not go through a fast corner and have enough engine braking going in and power going out. So I ended up always using the paddle shifters.
Jesse's w4m tune gives me more power at lower rpms and a much more responsive transmission. In every day driving (and i'm an aggressive driving when i'm alone) and i'm now having a blast keeping it in sport auto. The transmission shifts very smoothly and predictably. It gives me much more confidence going through a high speed corner and knowing that a downshift won't jerk me around. I can feel the Performance Algorithm Shifting really kicking in coming out of a corner. And there's just loads more power available.

The w4m tune is cheap. $400 spend on a $70,000 car is pittens. He should be charging more!

The tune is completely reversible. Go to the dealer or have it's annual inspection it goes back to stock.

No hardware modifications required.

Jesse from w4m seems to be very knowledgeable, he owns the car himself and had a few months to fiddle with it. I much preferred that than going to a local tune shop where they see the car for the first time.

One of the factory engineers mentioned that they "left a lot on the table" for the v2, unlike the ZR1 which was a much more accurate tune.

So, especially if you have an automatic transmission I can highly recommend it. It's easy to install and you will immediately feel the difference.

Hans.

jvp
05-05-09, 01:53 PM
One of the factory engineers mentioned that they "left a lot on the table" for the v2, unlike the ZR1 which was a much more accurate tune.

I'm not sure which "factory engineer" you spoke with, but it's simply not the case. The factory fuel parameters were, in part, tuned by a very good friend of mine, whom I've been speaking with behind the scenes about this subject. I'm not at liberty to say who he is or what he's been saying exactly. But, his comments are not particularly positive regarding what Jesse is doing with the tune.

If folks are happy with their tunes and feel safe that the engine is doing what it should, then by all means go for it and enjoy. But, you ARE risking issues with your engine by messing with the fuel parameters, even if Jesse claims otherwise. And, his claim about being undetectable is patently false. If GM wants to find it, they'll find it. As long as you understand those two points, you'll be fine. :-)

jas

NormV
05-05-09, 02:19 PM
Why so many zones? Do they accommodate the different fuel pressures better?

Norm

The Tony Show
05-05-09, 02:25 PM
Can you guys comment on why after market tuning on a stock setup is required ? I'm not questioning the results, and completely understand the tune requirements if any mods are made. Just curious why the factory stock setup seems to be so far off of "ideal"

Thanks,

Ron

Liability and controlling warranty costs. Practically every mass produced car built today (especially high performance models) needs a built-in "safety net" to keep idiots from destroying the car and running GM's warranty cost through the roof.

It's hard for real "car nuts" like us to believe, but there's plenty of people out there who are going to buy a car like this and then throw cheap gas in it, let the air filter get dirty, not change the oil regularly and generally abuse the car. Also, the engineers have to try and plan for every extreme situation (like a guy sitting in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour and heat soaking the engine, then seeing daylight and flooring it), so they build in a certain amount of "cushion" to reduce the likelihood of part failures.

If you're willing to be fastidious about your service, only use the best gas, and be smart about not flooring the car if the oil's cold or the engine is heatsoaked, aftermarket tunes can pull back some of that cushion and let you enjoy more of what the car is capable of.

Razorecko
05-05-09, 02:31 PM
I have never heard an engineer ever state anything outside the fact that the oem tune is perfect in their manufactured vehicle. And I do really agree with the above statement. The factory tunes are setup to basically handle the extreme mis maintenance of a car newb. Someone that will put in the cheapest gas, let the air filter rot for 30k miles, etc.

LITTLEELVISDAN
05-05-09, 02:41 PM
I'm not sure which "factory engineer" you spoke with, but it's simply not the case. The factory fuel parameters were, in part, tuned by a very good friend of mine, whom I've been speaking with behind the scenes about this subject. I'm not at liberty to say who he is or what he's been saying exactly. But, his comments are not particularly positive regarding what Jesse is doing with the tune.



jas:lies:I'm calling "BULLSH1T" on this post..
I know a guy who knows a guy who's done it. yeah right! Pony up the guys name and what exactly he is saying. Otherwise its as good as made up in your head....

What's your buddy say about the engineer that designed the V1 rear diff. I am sure that guy thought he nailed the design.... NOT..

LITTLEELVISDAN
05-05-09, 03:10 PM
I tested software for 15 years. Ran groups of 100 testers. I NEVER SAW CODE THAT WAS RIGHT THE FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, ETC. TIME. Any engineer that tells you his code is perfect at any given time of a development or production cycle is full of CRAP. So your buddy that thinks his AF ratios and ECM programming out of GM is perfect and bullet proof,,, That comment astounds me... No it scares me..

jvp
05-05-09, 03:28 PM
I'm calling "BULLSH1T" on this post

Believe what you like. It doesn't really matter much to me. :-) Good luck with your car.


I tested software for 15 years. Ran groups of 100 testers. I NEVER SAW CODE THAT WAS RIGHT THE FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, ETC. TIME. Any engineer that tells you his code is perfect at any given time of a development or production cycle is full of CRAP. So your buddy that thinks his AF ratios and ECM programming out of GM is perfect and bullet proof,,, That comment astounds me... No it scares me..

Your experience aside, you've no idea the kind of work that went into the testing and tuning of the new supercharged blocks from GM (the LSA and LS9, specifically). Are they perfect? Probably not. Is there gobs of HP and MPG to be had by twiddling some bits in it? If you believe that, then I've some beachfront property in AZ that I'll sell ya. Cheap.

:D

Ultimately, I'm going to stick by my original statement, which is this:


If folks are happy with their tunes and feel safe that the engine is doing what it should, then by all means go for it and enjoy. But, you ARE risking issues with your engine by messing with the fuel parameters

jas

jwa999
05-05-09, 03:29 PM
I'm not sure which "factory engineer" you spoke with, but it's simply not the case. The factory fuel parameters were, in part, tuned by a very good friend of mine, whom I've been speaking with behind the scenes about this subject. I'm not at liberty to say who he is or what he's been saying exactly. But, his comments are not particularly positive regarding what Jesse is doing with the tune.

jas

I didn't speak with any engineer, i read it in one of the many articles about the cts-v. And I found references in other forums that must have read the same article:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6664227

"Even the GM engineers said they left a good 10% of "tune" for the vehicle left on the table...."

As far as your friend not having particular positive comments about Jesse. Has he applied Jesse's tune to any of his cars and analyzed the results? It sounds like your friend wouldn't like anybody messing with his design.
I personally am just interested in facts.

Hans.

Hawkeye2
05-05-09, 03:52 PM
I am skeptical about tunes. I have nothing factual to back up - just my opinion. The factory will not push every part, engine
included to the extreme for every day use. This would include the mechanical tolerance of all parts. So, in theory there is
probably some gain to be made by tuning a car to a specific need. Is it worth it?

That is the question. I believe that any change to the ECM is traceable even if returned to stock. I'll try to find out from Matt Harlan
a GM engineer to see what he says.

Now as for fact. I had my 98 Camaro LS1 "tuned" at a speed shop in Detroit. I paid $500 and gained 6HP. Dynoed the same day same
dyno before and after tune. Worth it? No way! Maybe just my experience at that shop that day, but has really made me gun shy
about tuning a new car.

Short-Throw
05-05-09, 04:02 PM
I didn't speak with any engineer, i read it in one of the many articles about the cts-v. And I found references in other forums that must have read the same article:

"Even the GM engineers said they left a good 10% of "tune" for the vehicle left on the table...."

Hans.

You can all believe what you want but jvp is correct.

What was said and what was reported are two different things.

It is absolutely mind boggling how the press distorts or reports erroneous information. I can't believe there aren't more swampland owners here.


The V was run at higher power levels and it's believed another 10% could be attained relatively easily with parts changed!. The differences between LSA & LS9 were also outlined - emphasizing parts changed is what was required to go from 556/551 power to 638/604 AND meet all durability requirements.

Journalist using their ubiquitous freedom of interpretation took that to mean the calibration left 10% on the table. Simply not true without hardware changes. Messing with the calibration WILL decrease durability.

Tunes are detectable by GM, it doesn't matter if you flash it back, they contain a CVN code and other measures which I will not discuss.

I still challenge anybody with a tuned only V, to come out to Autobahn and run against my bone stock V and prove any significant gain, if at all.


Mike

LITTLEELVISDAN
05-05-09, 04:15 PM
WOW I guess there will never be an update for your cars since they are perfect day one. HMMM! NOT!!!! My STS-V has already had 7 ECM updates and a couple TCM updates and a couple versions of the NAV unit... \for what? you ask.. Because they got it WRONG the first time. and they continue to fix software BUGS.. I could go on for days listing the issues GM and every car company got wrong.. Pinto sharp sprockett by gas tank. KABOOM!!! They thought they got that right the first time..........

I'll bet you get a fix in the first 6 months if you haven't already. Check the service manager and see if there are any updates avaiable yet.

Nothing is perfect and it will never be.. Not even GM's programs... Not anyones programs.

Still havent seen your buddys name or comments.....

jvp
05-05-09, 04:42 PM
Still havent seen your buddys name or comments.....

You'll have a better chance of seeing Elvis than you will my friend's name or direct comments.

I'm done here. Good luck with your tuning. :-)

jas

wait4me
05-05-09, 10:01 PM
HMM this thread went way out of whack. Tunes do make changes and i agree, not every tune out there that tuners do are better.. Some tuners are better than others also.. We are all human. Also to state that G M calibrators never make mistakes is hilarous. Humans make mistakes. So do software computer generated values. A computer can only output valid information if it has valid information given to it.

But to say tunes / aftermarket tunes dont make a vehicle run better is rediculous. I wouldnt be in biz selling tunes if word of mouth and people showing thier vehicle to other people with the same vehicle to show them the differences. Not everyone is the same, nor have the same tastes. So i just tailor the vehicle to what the customer wants. He paid for it, he should get it how he wants.

Just as people that want different shifts, or more low end power..

I would love to go to the autobahn, How about this, I bring a driver with me. Ill bring a stock part modified tuned auto with me and he drives, and if he wins you pay all my travel expenses and getting the car over and back. If i loose ill pay yours.. :D

wait4me
05-05-09, 10:08 PM
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wait4me
05-05-09, 10:12 PM
In the above post is an error in the 2009 software in the intake airflow spark correction table based on IAT1. The table shows how much timing will be modified based on intake temp sampled at the MAF sensor. If you look, i know it is hard to see here, but on the 7th row down, look for a POSITIVE 9 value.. So, at that row of temp, instead of pulling -10 degrees which is what is needed, it adds 9 to the value.. Tell your freind that he might want to add that to the fix for next updates. I can point out about 32 problems if you want me to email you an exact list of anomolies and bug fixes needed..

Razorecko
05-05-09, 10:20 PM
In the above post is an error in the 2009 software in the intake airflow spark correction table based on IAT1. The table shows how much timing will be modified based on intake temp sampled at the MAF sensor. If you look, i know it is hard to see here, but on the 7th row down, look for a POSITIVE 9 value.. So, at that row of temp, instead of pulling -10 degrees which is what is needed, it adds 9 to the value.. Tell your freind that he might want to add that to the fix for next updates. I can point out about 32 problems if you want me to email you an exact list of anomolies and bug fixes needed..

wow, so Jesse do you fix all these oem tune mistakes in your tunes ??

wait4me
05-05-09, 10:25 PM
Im not trying to be funny on this one guys. Another one is in Cyl 2 knock detection. The values are supposed to be 16 and 3.46 in a set block and they are at 25 in a square of 4. The higher the values the LESS the vehicle will detect knock on that Cly rotation %. So if that airflow amount is met, and there was a REAL knock event during that time, Cly 3 will not report it. Even though probably the other 7 cly would catch it. If you do it JUST right with a manual trans, i can hit that airflow amount and trigger a load KR event. Not seen with the stock tune...

Razorecko
05-05-09, 10:33 PM
So Jesse do you correct all these mistakes you see in your tune/ go over the oem with a comb or do you just adjust the points you know are overly cautious ? - also off topic but you stated that a full 4in cai would disrupt the maf signal and would need a tune, with this statement are you saying that a full 4in cai could do potential harm or that the cai wont be fully utilized w/out tune adjustment ?

wait4me
05-05-09, 10:44 PM
Yes i correct Several mistypes in the calibration. I do go over alot of the calibration to double check the work. I do find errors, but i just fix them. No big deal. I tweak things how i have seen made positive results in my past experience of tuning LS1 cars, both on the street in real life situations AND extensive dyno testing, since the days of a hex editor and reverse engineering with IDA pro and desoldering the Ab28F400 44 pin chip off the boards and Learning all the comms and how the CPU works ect way back in 1997 to build interface cables to do uploading... To now, where there are alot better software available to us as an end user that save guys like me alot of time. Im not sure how much experience or how many cars i need to tune or what the highest horsepower car i have/ and or tuned, which by the way have had a 1113 hp Camaro with lots of boost that lasted 100s of dyno pulls and weekend fun romps around town without failing, "sold it last year to a friend".
I guess every one has thier own opinions about everything in the world, and i respect that.. But to say nothing can be gained from something is kind of rude without proof.

wait4me
05-05-09, 10:48 PM
Sorry Razorecko, Yes the 4 inch FULL cold air does require a little different Maf table due to the flow thru the maf electronics. It has more dense air entering towards the top of the box because of less restriction and not having to do a hard turn from the airbox like it did before with the factory box. The smooth transistion from in the filter and up around the 90 degree bend makes a few flow differences in lower hz ranges..

GMX322V S/C
05-05-09, 10:53 PM
Maybe those mistakes are the factory "fingerprint"--when they're gone they know it's been tampered with :D j/k

I, for one, really appreciate your using your talents, expertise, and experience to make these refinements available to the everyman like me Jesse.

AuPanda
05-05-09, 10:56 PM
:yeah:

Razorecko
05-05-09, 11:03 PM
Sorry Razorecko, Yes the 4 inch FULL cold air does require a little different Maf table due to the flow thru the maf electronics. It has more dense air entering towards the top of the box because of less restriction and not having to do a hard turn from the airbox like it did before with the factory box. The smooth transistion from in the filter and up around the 90 degree bend makes a few flow differences in lower hz ranges..

Is that something that you need to rework on a dyno or can it be done as an em tune ? And are there any adverse effects to not tuning after a 4in install or will there just be performance held back ?

wait4me
05-05-09, 11:09 PM
Why so many zones? Do they accommodate the different fuel pressures better?

Norm

The more zones the table has, the MORE ACCURATE each section of the coeficients can be for fueling.

When there is a fuel error from a stoich deviation, say in REAL LIFE the engine is 13.9 with no correction, The LTRIM "or short term" will have a -4.4% Needed for that exact zone, HOWEVER, say 200 more rpms, the ve might be correct and not need the 4.4% pulled and would cause a leaner condition. So, with the more resolution, it allows the system to store that other information and not make such a large block of ve using that one stored value. It makes the vehicle more accurate. Same with the Higher resolution of spark tables and coefiecient tables for fueling. It just makes it all better.




Fuel pressure does have an issue on how gm has it set up. If you log the DUTY CYCLE of an injector during a Wide open throttle run from idle at the track to redline, you can see as it tells the fuel pressure control module to command different values, the injector pulse width freaks out and goes crazy till it fixes itself. I can provide logs of this on this thread if they would like to see what im talking about.

When at idle, the fpdm is putting out a low duty cycle, as the ecm is only commanding fuel rail pressure to be 36 lbs of pressure. "not counting the 14.7 ambient pressure of coarse. Then at wot it is still there, then it switches to a 60psi pressure commanded, and then 65. Each time that happens, you get a REALLY rich condition. WHY you ask? Well, if the ecm has to modify injector Ms to hit its target, the Ms for the injector are aLOT more with lower pressure, But then after the pressure gets higher, it then OVER COMPENSATES for a brief moment in time because now it has that higher pressure and will no longer need that higher Ms....


I can go into ALOT more detail if someone wants. Including data streams..

wait4me
05-05-09, 11:16 PM
Not sure if it was done intentionally or not by a calibrator, but a funny thing is, if you look at these values and plot them out, it makes a HUGE perfect v. ;) This is in a idle table.

0.052460
0.049181
0.045903
0.042624
0.039345
0.036066
0.032788
0.029509
0.026230
0.022951
0.019672
0.016394
0.013115
0.009836
0.006557
0.003279
0.000000
0.003279
0.006557
0.009836
0.013115
0.016394
0.019672
0.022951
0.026230
0.029509
0.032788
0.036066
0.039345
0.042624
0.045903
0.049181
0.052460

wait4me
05-05-09, 11:57 PM
I can also point out the values in your coeficient table matrix that make a flaw in the actual assumed Ve model on the engine causing the lean condition you see on tipin transistion at exactly 2500 rpms and again at 3300 rpms that gets WORSE as kpa on the engine gets higher. Putting the data in Matlab will show the huge error between cells at that point causing the instability.

Here is just a generated snipit of a spot showing what i mean. These values should be raising consecutively of coarse.. But arent.

2603.930694
2535.788885
2470.811227
2408.997719
2390.373529
2382.292466
2385.146251
2398.934884
2900.151203
2955.602856
3008.460076
3058.722865
3106.391223
3151.465149

aburd
05-06-09, 12:10 AM
someone irritated mr wizard. I'm not sure I understood one sentence in the above two posts. That's ok I've only heard good things about w4me.
Ab

whisler151
05-06-09, 12:14 AM
someone irritated mr wizard. I'm not sure I understood one sentence in the above two posts. That's ok I've only heard good things about w4me.
Ab

:yeah:

LITTLEELVISDAN
05-06-09, 08:50 AM
I still challenge anybody with a tuned only V, to come out to Autobahn and run against my bone stock V and prove any significant gain, if at all.


MikeMike, comparing 2 different drivers, 2 different cars isn't where the proof is.
.
I put to you if you drove 3 laps with your stock car and then drove YOUR car 3 laps tuned with 30 more HP and 30 more lbs tq and better shifting transmission, you are telling me you couldn't better your own lap times? I'm betting you could :thumbsup:

CIWS
05-06-09, 09:11 AM
I would love to go to the autobahn, How about this, I bring a driver with me. Ill bring a stock part modified tuned auto with me and he drives, and if he wins you pay all my travel expenses and getting the car over and back. If i loose ill pay yours.. :D

To be fair you need to also let him know your racing team has a sniper :D




:hide:



;)

jvp
05-06-09, 09:50 AM
To be fair you need to also let him know your racing team has a sniper

Mike's team has one, too...

This is hanging in my office :-)
http://pics.lateapex.net/smile1.jpg

neuronbob
05-06-09, 11:32 AM
Oh, SNAP. It's on. :)

Seriously, this is a great debate for the great unwashed with Vs to see as we are considering mods. I know I'm seriously considering the handheld, myself. Perhaps the best place to sort this out IS the track, and I'd love to see it happen, with vids. It would only be educational for us all.

Short-Throw
05-06-09, 11:47 AM
Mike, comparing 2 different drivers, 2 different cars isn't where the proof is.


Great post, thank you! This was not my suggestion, it was wait4me.

I couldn't agree with you more!

I had absolutely no intention of making this a driver's contest, that would prove nothing, and surely there are plenty of drivers faster than me. For example. I will be driving with Andy Pilgrim this weekend. His time would surely not be beat by anybody so that would simply be ridiculous to have such data input.

Frankly, I'm quite surprised Jesse even suggested such a test which would obviously add another variable skewing results.




.
I put to you if you drove 3 laps with your stock car and then drove YOUR car 3 laps tuned with 30 more HP and 30 more lbs tq and better shifting transmission, you are telling me you couldn't better your own lap times? I'm betting you could :thumbsup:

To clarify, my thought was to have the same competent driver operate both vehicles back to back. That could be me or anybody else.

I'm not saying that increased HP and TQ would not make a difference. I'm saying that there is a big difference between 'claimed HP increase' and what that same vehicle will do in real world conditions.

I can't tell you how many people I meet when I instruct, cannot figure out why their car isn't faster because they had a dyno sheet suggesting it was.

Dyno's are tuning tools, not measuring sticks.

I would love to see proof that I'm wrong. I've already conducted many tests with friends and their 'tuned only' Z06's versus mine the past two years as they wanted to know the real truth. We ran full lap sessions and rolling 20-150mph distances. There was no material difference.

I have been in enough cars to question whether you can really feel an extra 25 HP when you're already at such a high number as 556 to start with. Adding 25 HP to Miata would be night and day, not to a CTS-V.

I love options to advance our cars, I just feel that we haven't seen any supported real world evidence with tunes only, and the potential cost and risk doesn't seem to be worth it.

Anyone that has visited and walked through Wixom knows what I'm talking about.

I'd like to see Jesse offer more of a track setup, like intake, headers and removing cats with his tune, that seems more plausible, but not street legal.

It's not as much fun and doesn't carry too much weight in bench racing, but driving lessons are the sure way to make your car go faster.


Mike

jvp
05-06-09, 11:59 AM
It's not as much fun and doesn't carry too much weight in bench racing, but driving lessons are the sure way to make your car go faster.

What dope are YOU smoking? Not as much fun?!

(I know what you meant... I'm kidding. :D )

I'll further what Mike said. Jesse (or any other tuner, for that matter) could really help the track dogs by coming up with:
- an aftermarket differential cooler that doesn't cost thousands of dollars
- high-quality, robust 2-piece rotors (for at least the front)
- a harness installation kit that still allows the use of the back seats (way hard)
...

Note I mentioned nothing about power or torque outputs. :-) There's no such thing as "too much HP," but there is such a thing as learning how to deal with the HP that one has under foot. And the stock V is an enormous well of grunt, right from the factory.

jas

Razorecko
05-06-09, 12:08 PM
I think an important point is that Jesse is not going to over load the stock system with hp/tq from his tune. It wont be some ridiculous amount of strain to the stock system. Most of the benefit will come from fixed code and more predictable shifting. Real benefits come from tunes when you do get headers, intake, exhaust, etc as these all will put the oem tune into unfamiliar performance levels. Good points by everone though

Short-Throw
05-06-09, 12:49 PM
strain to the stock system.

Razor,

There is simply is no way of guaranteeing this. Again, all I am asking for is supported data that suggests otherwise. What testing has been done to show there will be no adverse effects? GM spent years of R&D building this engine, long before anybody knew there would even be a V2 and has given us a warranty that will most likely outlive the term most of us will own the car for. I took delivery of the first car just before Thanksgiving, making these cars 5 month's on the market, not exactly a long term testing period.

Please explain the rationale for GM not delivering more HP and better gas mileage than already presented, if all it really would have taken is a few computer tweaks. Does anybody honestly feel they couldn't figure it out? That's simply an inane thought.


Get this car doing full time track duty and I'm all for giving Jesse a call.



Mike

CIWS
05-06-09, 12:56 PM
Mike's team has one, too...

This is hanging in my office :-)


Snipe with a pistol ?

jvp
05-06-09, 12:59 PM
Snipe with a pistol ?

No, friend, that was with a very, very accurate rifle.

jas

Razorecko
05-06-09, 01:06 PM
Hey Mike we can all agree that anything that increases the performance of a vehicle that has unmodified stock internals will most likely see a decrease in engine life. Most likely its something a huge majority of owners wont run into. If the engine goes at 140,000 miles instead of 115,000 because of an aggressive tune than most of us wouldn't be able to tell over the long period and the benefit would outweight the consequence. Would gm be able to create a motor that only lasts 90k miles with much greater performance ? of course they would. Car companies are still business's so they generally want to create the safest, most durable product that can achieve a certain level of performance at a certain budget. Could gm have thrown us the LS9's pistons ?? Heck yea ! - but why ? over several thousands of cars the price would have added up for them. Do we think it would have been a good idea ?!? of course we do and would have paid for the difference.

wait4me
05-06-09, 01:20 PM
I would say the dampner isolator spring in between the blower snout and the rotor gear assembly will be the major fail point on this car. WAY before any internal motor part failures.

Not sure what gm was thinking when they put a Hardend Spring to rub on a NON hardened shaft.. Then put a tsb saying the bad noise was normal.. HMMM I have solid couplers that i have now and the noises are gone, and zero issues now. Well besides what metal is missing from when i had the stock on in its place.

Hogg
05-06-09, 02:36 PM
Razor,



Please explain the rationale for GM not delivering more HP and better gas mileage than already presented, if all it really would have taken is a few computer tweaks. Does anybody honestly feel they couldn't figure it out? That's simply an inane thought.

Mike

HP- its common to keep engine output reduced when a new product is released. It gives the company something to attract repeat customers.

Husband: I want the new 2012 CTSV.
Wife: Why, we are still paying for the 2009 CTSV in the driveway?
Husband: But the 2012 CTS_V now has 590hp.


There are a lot of guys here who assume that all aftermarket tuning is good for is power gains. That is actually a small part of a full tune. There are many other factors which affect a vehicles accelaration. They arent shown on any dyno though. 1/4 mile speeds and ETs are a great indicator if done back to back under similar conditions.

Simply take a CTS V to a 1/4 mile track. Do stock tune runs, and aftermarket tune runs. Then compare the time sheets.
These 1/4 mile can be applied to many driving conditions. Roadracing is a bunch of acceleration and deceleration cycles bound together with corners.

As with anything, its a fine balance between engine output and durability. PCM tuning, if done properly, wouldnt substantially reduce durability. If you are running the ragged edge with a "white-hot" tune, then of course drability can suffer.


peace
Hog

wait4me
05-06-09, 02:45 PM
I found something funny. Goto http://tis2web.service.gm.com/tis2web

Then type in this vin number. 1GCCS19x1t8193827.

Then select PCM then hit next.

Then hit complete history. Then look down at the bottom where it says "16227399 N/A Calibration change to reduce soot in the exhaust gas "

:) wrong car type, but ive seen them make fixes.

Vlakaz
05-06-09, 05:36 PM
Oh, SNAP. It's on. :)

Seriously, this is a great debate for the great unwashed with Vs to see as we are considering mods. I know I'm seriously considering the handheld, myself. Perhaps the best place to sort this out IS the track, and I'd love to see it happen, with vids. It would only be educational for us all.

Doesn't anyone have the auto with tune only and auto stock they can film vs each other? Auto will be the better test to see if tune only makes a diffrerence or not since manual introduces too many driver variables.

Get two autos, one stock one with tune at a standstill and mash on the gas and see which one pulls ahead. Do the same from 40mph or 60mph and again see if there is an advantage.

Now that would make a good video. :)

Hawkeye2
05-07-09, 12:50 PM
Here is my question from another board:

Is it possible to tune a new GM engine, with an aftermarket tune,
then replace it to stock, and leave no trace that it was ever
changed?

I don't want opinions, just fact if you know.

Thanks.

Here is the answer

This has been a very very hot topic in the C6 sections on Corvette Forum for awhile. The supposed straight scoop is GM can tell the last 9 flashes or re-flashes done to the the computer. There are also copies of the instructions that have been sent to the dealers posted. Basically what it tells the dealer to do is that if there is a hard driveline failure and something shows up that is not a GM item in the history of the car's ECM they are to take a picture of the diagnostic screen and forward it to a specific site. I guess it all depends on how deeply the dealer wants to dig.

Here is a GM Bulletin I thought some of you may be interested in reading;

Subject: Identifying Aftermarket Engine and Transmission Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L, 3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L Gas Powered Engines Only and 6T40/45 (MH8), 6T70/75 (MH2, MH4, MH6, MY9), 6L50 (MYB) 6L80 (MYC) or 6L90 (MYD) Automatic Transmission


Models: 2006-2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

2006-2009 HUMMER H2, H3

2006-2009 Saturn Models

2006-2009 Opel GT

2007-2008 Daewoo G2X

EXCLUDING Chevrolet Aveo, Pontiac Vibe, Wave, G3, Saab Models, Saturn ASTRA




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This bulletin is being revised to remove Saturn (except Astra) from the list of excluded vehicles. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033B (Section 06 -- Engine/Propulsion System).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006C.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different from the calibrations that these components were validated to. Repairs to engine, transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):
Go to TIS2WEB
Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
Enter VIN
Select "Get Cal ID"
Select "ECM Engine Control Module" or "TCM Transmission Control Module"
Select "Next"
Select "Complete History"
Print
Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2
Plug in the Tech 2
Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
Select "Powertrain"
Select "Engine"
*Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM" or "TCM"
*Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
*If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.
* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM or TCM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case -- a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2 screen showing the VIN and the CVNs that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R.BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. In Canada, please copy your GM Warranty Manager. GM will verify if the CVNs are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION


2009 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.
__________________

and,

GM has a way to tell if you have modified the program on your computer. The bulletin mentioned above is valid... this would only come into play if you had some kind of engine failure etc. If the calibration numbers do not match (and we have a way to verify) then you risk losing your powertrain warranty.

As mentioned this came about mostly from Diesel guys cranking the power WAY up on the Duramax and destroying engines, we have also seen it in the 6.2 in full size trucks (damage from programmers).

One thing to keep in mind... GM (and all other mfr's) spend millions of dollars and hours to maximize emissions, durability etc. These "other" chip manufactures do not have to meet durability or emission requirements.... I wonder why the government hasn't gotten involved yet... there are some serious fines for "tampering" with the emission system (engine programming included), I personally wouldn't want to run the risk.

Also I find it deceptive that a person would modify your vehicle break it and then bring in and expect someone to pay for your non factory modification.

I am a field rep and if we have a vehicle in question I go out and inspect and make a decision. I can tell you that GM has engineered this in for a reason as we were paying for failures that weren't "manufacture" defects. Hope that helps clear it up.
__________________

Don't know if that helps anyone decide to tune or not. However, I do know
the factories change tunes as the model year goes on. The dealership did
2 upgrades on the ECM on my Suburban, while it was in for service. I think
there are gains from tuning, but that is my personal opinion. I have had it
done in the past, and will probably have some minor tweaking done when
my V arrives.

Still waiting and waiting .......

Razorecko
05-07-09, 01:05 PM
There are just some people that expect their motors to be invincible and throw on some really crazy tunes on their vehicles and than later get upset if it blows. I have always paid for any failure due to an aftermarket part of mine. If i put ss brake lines and one splits I dont expect the dealer to cover it. I'll pay out of pocket.

neuronbob
05-07-09, 03:57 PM
But are Jesse's tunes that crazy? They don't seem so to me. He's not trying to unleash mega-horsepower, he's more trying to optimize shift points and such.

Then again, I'm not a powertrain engineer, so my words mean nothing.