: Cheap Steel Rear Diffs



CTS-Voodoo
04-30-09, 07:34 PM
Title is a bit of a teaser, but the housemate is a machinist. He wants to buy himself a press mold and a 5 axis. He says he could make the rears out of steel very cheaply. I asked him if under 1500 was a possibility, he said "definitely."

It wont happen for a while, but you boys will be the first to know when all steel housing will be available cheaply. If this became available, how many people here would be interested? My housemate wanted an idea of how many he would be building.

Doctornick
04-30-09, 07:46 PM
5 axis CNC?

Cowan480
04-30-09, 09:03 PM
count me in.. very interested.. if he can do it than i might just buy two..

Cowan480
04-30-09, 09:04 PM
also it might be helpful to look at "nutz" tread there is a lot of interest there.

liqidvenom
04-30-09, 09:24 PM
I might be down.

jweymar
04-30-09, 10:46 PM
of course if it is a plug and play

CadiBlk
04-30-09, 10:58 PM
Your housemate know about the Cadillac tax?

Seems like every other product for our car has it. Might change his mind.

liqidvenom
04-30-09, 11:07 PM
is it a complete setup with internals also?

zie
04-30-09, 11:43 PM
hmmm....

Nutz
05-01-09, 12:10 AM
My block of steel alone was $1,200.00 (jobber price). Feel free to have your housemate call me. I can tell him how much fun it has been to try to start a steel idea in the midst of an unstable all time high in steel prices and all time low in unemployment rate (potential buyers), not to mention the cost of man hrs. on a machine. The electricity used alone was calculated at around $400.00. I can vouch for how many times a $1,000.00 check and 10 hr days at a machine was donated to research and completion.

BUT, the press mold idea always had merit to keeping them as cheap as possible. My housing would be leaps and bounds forward in providing the ultimate reverse cast donor. I'm all ears here.

CTS-Voodoo
05-01-09, 12:15 AM
He was thinking he would create a cast steel casing that then was CNCed down to fit everything exactly. It would eliminate a LOT of the cost of the raw materials. I will throw your idea at him. Like I said, not immediately, but sooner rather than later.

Nutz
05-01-09, 12:35 AM
Here's a link to my photo hosting site that contains a few raw images of the "Big Red" beast if he wants to see.


http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/slideshow/21841787

Koooop
05-01-09, 01:14 AM
Since you're not nutz on the price I'm in!

Wait, why would I want a steel diff? There's nothing wrong with mine.

Nutz
05-01-09, 07:55 AM
Since you're not nutz on the price I'm in!

Wait, why would I want a steel diff? There's nothing wrong with mine.:thepan:

Koooop
05-01-09, 01:21 PM
:thepan:

:alchi:...

heavymetals
05-01-09, 01:53 PM
Good luck on your venture!

FYI, the best quote I ever got was a ballpark figure of $500@ fob (Taiwan) with about $2k of R&D and a minimum order of 50 pcs.

CTS-Voodoo
05-01-09, 03:02 PM
After looking into it, hes thinking about making a kit that mounts a 1986 C4's Dana 44 rear into the V. The Dana 44s dont start eating U joints till about 900 horsepower and mid 8 second runs, so I figure thats strong enough for a stock piece. The 1986 and up rears are about a grand. Might be a little easier machine work when all you have to do is make a few brackets.

Just a side note, the Dana 36s only hold about 450 rear wheel before they start dumping parts and theyre only a couple hundred cheaper.

Like I said, Ill keep you all informed.

zie
05-01-09, 03:06 PM
Sounds good too!

I was reading about an 8-900 hp '05 V w/ an LS2 in it. They had custom injectors, kooks headers, whatever sc, and other shit lol. He fabricated an old mustang rear to put on the cts so it could handle it.

ctsv154
05-01-09, 03:10 PM
Your probably talking about rlj5's. He tried an 8.8 cobra rear end and it didnt hold the power. He has a F1-A procharger on a 402 making about 813rwhp. He has since swapped to a madman rear end conversion.

zie
05-01-09, 03:14 PM
Sounds like it!

Nitrane
05-01-09, 03:48 PM
One new 5 axis machining center.......minimum cost $135000.00 a good used one is still around $85000.00..... just to make steel diffs

Good luck on the venture!!!!!

heavymetals
05-01-09, 05:50 PM
I like the 12 bolt IRS idea with a modified factory carrier, but that is big bucks compared to $1500.00 for an OEM.

For the racer types I can see that or the Madman method.

I drive my V maybe 3 times a week now for less then 10 miles a trip.

Unless I get into some serious burnouts or diff destroying driving habits I still need to upgrade to an 06 diff and shrapnel it before I think about buying an alternative.

Not to say I haven't researched it.

heavymetals
05-01-09, 05:53 PM
Voodoo, there is a guy on here who put a Vette diff in and it took some fab work, but he did get it to work.

(Norm?)

zie
05-03-09, 08:05 PM
So what is going on with this?
You gonna keep us updated on whether he decides to pursue this venture?
I am more interested in this than the custom axle thing now... I think... lol

nmaier2201
05-03-09, 10:49 PM
Good luck Voodoo... Thanks for keeping us informed. I look forward to your findings.....

CTS-Voodoo
05-04-09, 01:37 PM
One new 5 axis machining center.......minimum cost $135000.00 a good used one is still around $85000.00..... just to make steel diffs

Good luck on the venture!!!!!

My housemate has been a machinist for 16 years. So far hes whittled the cost of all the parts he wants to about 1800 for a home built 5 axis, which he will be producing a whole line of. ;)

CTS-Voodoo
05-04-09, 01:39 PM
I like the 12 bolt IRS idea with a modified factory carrier, but that is big bucks compared to $1500.00 for an OEM.

For the racer types I can see that or the Madman method.

I drive my V maybe 3 times a week now for less then 10 miles a trip.

Unless I get into some serious burnouts or diff destroying driving habits I still need to upgrade to an 06 diff and shrapnel it before I think about buying an alternative.

Not to say I haven't researched it.

Actually with the C3 setup and our suspension you have the IRS, and you can handle 8-900hp clutch drops. My car will probably be the first one we convert. I think whats going to happen is Jay plans to make mounting kits for the rears so they bolt right into out stock cages. Then its just a question of who can turn a wrench?

rand49er
05-04-09, 02:50 PM
Am interested here. (<-- Interpretation: I don't have the money now, but I could sure as heck find it if these become available. :D)

nmaier2201
05-04-09, 03:22 PM
I Am interested here... I have a spare cradle and interested to see what you come up with...... (as always Voodoo)

Koooop
05-04-09, 07:03 PM
Actually with the C3 setup and our suspension you have the IRS, and you can handle 8-900hp clutch drops. My car will probably be the first one we convert. I think whats going to happen is Jay plans to make mounting kits for the rears so they bolt right into out stock cages. Then its just a question of who can turn a wrench?

All C3 Rears were not created equal. Choose wisely.

I've never rebuilt the rear diff in my '69 C3. 4 small blocks, 3 TH400 transmissions and HUnDREDS and HuNDREDS oF ThOUSANDS oF MiLES! The past 10 years the car has lived with motors putting out over 400HP+ / 450TQ+at the crank. That car has never been babied and the rear is one of the few original parts still surviving. The later C3's are known to pop diffs with their stout 170HP.

Twitch
05-04-09, 08:15 PM
Am interested here. (<-- Interpretation: I don't have the money now, but I could sure as heck find it if these become available. :D)
Interpretation: He has the money,,,,jus don't tell the wife. :duh:
Poor Randy, has to keep three sets of books.

Nitrane
05-04-09, 09:19 PM
""""""""My housemate has been a machinist for 16 years. So far hes whittled the cost of all the parts he wants to about 1800 for a home built 5 axis, which he will be producing a whole line of"""""""".


Home built 5 axis machining center????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! thats a good one!!!!

CTS-Voodoo
05-05-09, 12:35 AM
YouTube - Homemade 5-axis machine run by EMC2

Ill trust him.

zie
05-05-09, 09:51 AM
Ill trust him.

Pwn3d!
lol

nmaier2201
05-05-09, 03:52 PM
OH SNAP! After that video I'll trust him also.... I can't believe that is possible!!! what will people think of next! WOW

CTSV05
05-05-09, 11:34 PM
Having done the C3 deal, I can tell you, w/out mad fab and welding skills, it aint gonna happen.

I looked at the C4 rears, way too much fab on the cradle itself to mount the unit and buying rebuilt units wasnt cheap, trust Me.

The reason I charged $6500.00 for My C3 setup was I had over $4800.00 in parts alone. I wasnt raping anyone.

Look, sadly there is no easy solution to the problem, and that translates to expensive, when its not easy.

If a guy can hand make a steel case, stuff it full of gears, and do the set-up for $1500.00....hes a GD miracle worker I'll tell you that right now.

Nutz
05-06-09, 08:11 AM
Having done the C3 deal, I can tell you, w/out mad fab and welding skills, it aint gonna happen.

I looked at the C4 rears, way too much fab on the cradle itself to mount the unit and buying rebuilt units wasnt cheap, trust Me.

The reason I charged $6500.00 for My C3 setup was I had over $4800.00 in parts alone. I wasnt raping anyone.

Look, sadly there is no easy solution to the problem, and that translates to expensive, when its not easy.

If a guy can hand make a steel case, stuff it full of gears, and do the set-up for $1500.00....hes a GD miracle worker I'll tell you that right now.^ Amen to that brother. :wisdom:

Nitrane
05-06-09, 09:52 AM
Vodooo.... That video shows me your able to move a spindle and rotary table back and forth.... Show me it removing some metal at a high rate of speed and then you will have something.... untill then I dont beleive you can machine a piece of plastic with it.... I have owned my own cnc aerospace company for 11yrs and been in the trade for 23yrs and I can tell you it wont machine a steel diff and be effiecent at it

Doctornick
05-06-09, 10:31 AM
Unfortunately I am with Nitrane on this one. CNC machines are $$$ for a reason and its not to be expensive for the fun of it.

SkullV
05-06-09, 03:49 PM
Vodooo.... That video shows me your able to move a spindle and rotary table back and forth.... Show me it removing some metal at a high rate of speed and then you will have something.... untill then I dont beleive you can machine a piece of plastic with it.... I have owned my own cnc aerospace company for 11yrs and been in the trade for 23yrs and I can tell you it wont machine a steel diff and be effiecent at it

So why aren't you making us steel diffs??:canttalk:

The Tony Show
05-06-09, 03:57 PM
These diff fix threads are always entertaining. :food-snacking:

Luna.
05-06-09, 05:45 PM
So why aren't you making us steel diffs??:canttalk:

:histeric:

zie
05-06-09, 09:28 PM
So why aren't you making us steel diffs??:canttalk:

....

verywhitedevil
05-06-09, 11:30 PM
exactly!

CTSV_Rob
05-07-09, 01:08 AM
So why aren't you making us steel diffs??:canttalk:

Seems to me he said he once owned the shop.

Besides, unless you have tried to make one I wouldn't criticize.

Now Nutz has the right.:D

SkullV
05-07-09, 01:32 AM
Seems to me he said he once owned the shop.

Besides, unless you have tried to make one I wouldn't criticize.

Now Nutz has the right.:D

He was criticizing the OP for trying to help us out, bragged about his knowledge, and......





















...still isn't making us any cheap steel diffs!:thepan:

CTSV_Rob
05-07-09, 11:34 AM
He was criticizing the OP for trying to help us out, bragged about his knowledge, and......





















...still isn't making us any cheap steel diffs!:thepan:
I hope he is successful but it is difficult to do something like this.

Don't see you doing anything about it either :stirpot:

SkullV
05-07-09, 11:39 AM
I hope he is successful but it is difficult to do something like this.

Don't see you doing anything about it either :stirpot:

Never said I could or that I knew anything about it...but if you want me to break your expensive aluminum diff....I'll give you a special. $9.99 for the first launch and only $2.50 for all subsequent launches!

CTSV05
05-07-09, 12:48 PM
Hell...I'll break it for FREEEEE!!!!

I'm jonesin bad to drive a V again...:D

heavymetals
05-07-09, 01:13 PM
IMHO the most cost effective use of a CNC is to do the "clean up" and dimensions on a rough cast, rather then hog out a piece of tool steel, which is ok for onesy twosy builds.

Where you run into a wall is the minimum # of pieces.

CTSV_Rob
05-07-09, 02:06 PM
Never said I could or that I knew anything about it...but if you want me to break your expensive aluminum diff....I'll give you a special. $9.99 for the first launch and only $2.50 for all subsequent launches!
No wonder you need a replacement.

CTSV_Rob
05-07-09, 02:07 PM
Hell...I'll break it for FREEEEE!!!!

I'm jonesin bad to drive a V again...:D
i'll let you drive mine and break it if you will throw in one of your "mods". :D

Nitrane
05-07-09, 04:41 PM
So why aren't you making us steel diffs??:canttalk:

If one of my maching centers had a large enough work envolope I would be producing steel diffs as I am a close personal friend of Nutz... He and I have been discussing this subject in depth for over a year now and unfortunatly my business involves small aerospace parts... In today's economy it would not be cost effective to purchase a machine large enough soley to produce the steel diffs.. I agree with Heavy metals that a cast iron casting would be the way to go as long as you can get a quality casting without air pockets in the casting..

SkullV
05-07-09, 06:00 PM
No wonder you need a replacement.

I'm on #3 in 26k miles...no catastrophic failures though..all whining. This one has 13000 miles on it and is still quiet. Royal Purple 75w90 with PLENTY of hard launches.

CTS-Voodoo
05-07-09, 06:20 PM
Let me just recap what I offered: a possible cheaper solution to our rear end woes.

What was the response: G.F.Y. we know better.

Im just going to build only one now. Just like my inboard trailing arms, rear strut bar, toe rods, front strut bar, etc. I now understand why no one makes parts for V owners. Thanks for clearing up the decision making process!

SkullV
05-07-09, 06:26 PM
Let me just recap what I offered: a possible cheaper solution to our rear end woes.

What was the response: G.F.Y. we know better.

Im just going to build only one now. Just like my inboard trailing arms, rear strut bar, toe rods, front strut bar, etc. I now understand why no one makes parts for V owners. Thanks for clearing up the decision making process!

Dude, I'm all for it, just like I'm all for everything you and mightymouse, and Nutz do/did for us. It's the guys who CAN'T deliver who get sour about the guys who can. Don't listen to the guys who doubt you, just listen to the cashflow of the guys who don't, and would love to buy your parts.

CTSV_Rob
05-07-09, 07:44 PM
Let me just recap what I offered: a possible cheaper solution to our rear end woes.

What was the response: G.F.Y. we know better.

Im just going to build only one now. Just like my inboard trailing arms, rear strut bar, toe rods, front strut bar, etc. I now understand why no one makes parts for V owners. Thanks for clearing up the decision making process!
Thicker skin.

If you could come up with a solid rear end for a decent price I would be there with SkullV. I have been involved with and watched people try this with limited success. The entire rear change and modify the cradle seems to be a good way to go but as Doug pointed out it cost him like $4,800 just in parts. I would have guessed lower but he has done it and I haven't so I trust him on this one.

I also talked with Nutz when he was trying to get these produced and believe it or not when I went to quote out the material it was like $1,500 alone. I talked with 3 machine shops in my area about this and because of the complexity everyone no-bid it.

It's easy for people to sit back and play arm chair quaterback and say I have these great ideas about fixing the rear end problem but up to this point any good solution has been in the 5K plus neighborhood. I am not against spending money but this is a bit too much for me to spend.

#3 huh SkullV? You better kiss some serious butt. As far as the fluid I prefer the AmsOil severe duty. I have ~21K on mine with no hint of any whining. I don't beat the piss out of mine but I do drive spirited.

lasstss
05-07-09, 08:33 PM
If you could get a machine shop to talk to you for $1500 you are lucky. I have been having parts made of all kinds of materials for years. If you want to make 500 or more its a possibility. Even the job shops are rarely interested unless its a 1 or 2 man shop.

The smartest thing to do at this point is to get that tool steel rear and have castings made. Castings are relatively cheap. While your at it get the side cover cast also. The aluminum side cover doesn't hold the carrier bearings down. It balloons. JMO....

SkullV
05-07-09, 08:52 PM
#3 huh SkullV? You better kiss some serious butt. As far as the fluid I prefer the AmsOil severe duty. I have ~21K on mine with no hint of any whining. I don't beat the piss out of mine but I do drive spirited.

Caddy dealer by me has had no issues putting diffs in. They said as long as I have no forced induction or major engine mods they will keep it up!

CTSV05
05-08-09, 12:15 AM
Like I said, its a bad deal on a wonderful car, and its a shame there is, at this time anyway, no easy and reasonably priced fix.

My prices were for all new, except for the C3 case, parts, and custom made everything else. Thats why so much $$.

Has anyone tried the diff from the SLX the suv? It is a cast iron case sposedly everything else is the same.

zie
05-08-09, 07:28 AM
Hey Voodoo, come on bro I want to be in on this. You see people bitch no matter what somebody offers. You saw the Custom Axle thread.

nmaier2201
07-22-09, 04:03 PM
Voodoo:

Even if you decided to make only one of these, I'd still be interested to see how it's working out for you...

Same for your widened wheels, trailing arms, any other sweet fabricated parts you are working on.

I for one am still curious how you are coming along. If you get a free minute let us know. I'd appreciate it.

HAAS
07-22-09, 04:28 PM
Look, put the BS aside... I just dropped 2600 on my rear diff. If you guys would have seen the diff, which Im sure you have seen bad... but this was real bad... You would want to drop 1500-2500 on a solid diff too. My mechanic owns an offroad shop, as in lifted trucks with steel skid pads and Dana 44s and GM 14 bolts. Hes seen some real damage especially when your talking about duallys that can spin 44 inch tires!!! He looked at mine and his mouth dropped!!! The bolts had stripped out, some of them had broken the loops around the bolts, and the diff literally warped and shred to pieces. I dont care if you make a diff using a sewing machine, if its stronger than this aluminum piece of junk thats part of the reason GM is claiming bankruptcy, then Im game for it. If you count in the Viper diff that I now have sitting in the garage, I dropped 3100 on it. I have all BMR and if I can keep it, I will. Otherwise, Im going to rebuild the D44 with 4.10 gears, locker, and new spiders and then Im off to the cradle. But if I can keep the rag, even though I dont care for it at all, Ill buy a beefy one just to know that I can pull up to a 4 runner full of girls after a night on the town and drop the clutch and not scare them into a panic thinking Im shooting a gun at them from the loud bang coming from my diff exploding. I know... Dont drive drunk or let your friends drive drunk... It could be fatal to you or your diff. haha

Nutz
07-22-09, 04:46 PM
:yawn:

Til then, my steel diff sits wrapped in a towel on a Papa Johns large pepperoni pizza box in my garage (since I took it out and traded in the 05 for an 09) til someone steps up with sack and a wallet. Shame this economy is... Wish these were cheaper to make.















:stirpot:

nmaier2201
07-22-09, 05:23 PM
yes it is a shame that it's sitting there. It is also a shame that we couldn't work out getting some more made at my buddies place...with the economy so bad job shops are cheap cheap cheap because breaking even is better than having machines sit idle....

I keep meaning to say hi to Nutz on the 09 boards... but don't want to get green with envy so I don't troll over there much :) Hope your car is treating you well Nutz, I'm sure you are enjoying it.

Nutz
07-22-09, 07:41 PM
yes it is a shame that it's sitting there. It is also a shame that we couldn't work out getting some more made at my buddies place...with the economy so bad job shops are cheap cheap cheap because breaking even is better than having machines sit idle....

I keep meaning to say hi to Nutz on the 09 boards... but don't want to get green with envy so I don't troll over there much :) Hope your car is treating you well Nutz, I'm sure you are enjoying it.No need for that, we're all in the same fortunate family. :thumbsup: Jump in there in 09 some time and see the some of the madness that goes on.
Like this much needed bit of words: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/175094-sts-v-looks-better-than-cts.html