: Luxury Car Focus Group



Brett
06-25-03, 11:27 PM
Went to a luxury car focus group last night, it was me and 4 Lincoln owners...ugh. It was interesting seeing how some people see things completely differently. These guys were saying how Cadillac was moving down market, and lincoln was moving up. that it was "obvious" that Lincoln is the choice for the young luxury buyers, and Cadillac doesnt even have cars that young people would like

They attacked the Escalade for being a Tahoe, which i agreed with to a point, but pointed out the similarity of the Expedition and the Navigator. At which point they all told me that wasnt true and i didnt know what i was talking about. Sometimes its hard not to kill.

Most of them admitted that they had never been in a Cadillac dealer. And 1 guy told me he couldnt wait to get another new continental next year, i just laughed. Im no mechanic or technical genius, but i do know current events in the auto world, and having to debate 4 non-car people was very tiring.

I did get $100 for the 2 hour meeting though

Night Wolf
06-25-03, 11:49 PM
Hmmm, Cadillac is getting ALOT more popular now, and the age group is going from 50-80 to 25-45 or so it seems

It's Lincoln that is going down....I just never hear anything about them, I will admit the styling of the new Town Car is nice, and the new LS with the V8 is nice too, but that's it..... it seems like it is BMW, MB and Caddy and Lexus now that are all the buzz

scourge
06-26-03, 04:05 AM
Cadillacs don't really appeal to that many younger people for various reasons. But, neither does Lincoln so I don't know why those guys would go on with the BS that they did. Stock for stock, I'd take a Lincoln LS over and Caddy. But, with a Northstar swap with a 5-speed tranny in the Catera....I take the Catera anyday.

HotRodSaint
06-26-03, 09:07 AM
...At which point they all told me that wasnt true and i didnt know what i was talking about. Sometimes its hard not to kill.

...Im no mechanic or technical genius, but i do know current events in the auto world, and having to debate 4 non-car people was very tiring...

I feel your pain. I really, really feel your pain. :devillaug

I mean come on, didn't that guy even know the Continental is being discontinued this year?

These people just make it too easy to bring out the hammer. :hammer:

HotRodSaint
06-26-03, 09:11 AM
Stock for stock, I'd take a Lincoln LS over and Caddy. But, with a Northstar swap with a 5-speed tranny in the Catera....I take the Catera anyday.

Putting my hammer away, why do you prefer the Catera vs the CTS?

Which LS engine/transmission are you comparing with the Catera?

BeelzeBob
06-26-03, 09:20 AM
I'd take an '02 ETC over the LS any day.. For styling AND performance.. Though the LS is really close in both regards...

At any cost, I think Lincoln is the one who's moving more down hill.. The Continental is gone - I think that was a mistake.. That was like Cadillac's Seville.. The LS is a lot like the Eldorado (to me).. The Town Car is nice but it's basically a DeVille - same kind of car...

Well.. I suppose the LS is more like a Seville.. I'd never take the LS over an STS... The Mark is gone - that was really the competitor to the Eldorado... So where is Lincoln's XLR? What's their answer to the CTS or the CTS-v? How about the STS-v coming soon?

I just don't see how Lincoln can add up to Cadillac... I'm going to start a new thread in regards...

HotRodSaint
06-26-03, 09:27 AM
I'd take an '02 ETC over the LS any day.. For styling AND performance.. Though the LS is really close in both regards...
<edit>
The LS is a lot like the Eldorado (to me)..
<edit>
Well.. I suppose the LS is more like a Seville..
<edit>
What's their answer to the CTS or the CTS-v? How about the STS-v coming soon?


On paper at least, I think the Lincoln LS and the Cadillac CTS are direct competitors. The LS might have a slight advantage with a V8 being an option (disadvantage is there is no manual V8).

I don't ever see any direct comparison between the CTS-V and the LS-8. They are two different markets.

But I would say that the V6 CTS and LS-6 are close competitors.

I'd go for a CTS with any engine over any LS.

scourge
06-26-03, 10:35 AM
Putting my hammer away, why do you prefer the Catera vs the CTS?

And you said you wished you lived in Australia? Its not a direct clone, but a Northstar powered Catera with a 5-speed=Holden Commodore=~Holden Monero=~Pontiac GTO. I know its still not a Commodore, but its close enough. I've always loved the Catera since it came out. It brought me back to Cadillac and I know its not a world class car, I still like the Catera. A Northstar powered Catera would make a more interesting challenge to a BMW 5series or a Benz C-Class. Yeah, they German cars are more refined but.....wait, the Catera is made in Germany by Opel, so its a German car too. :eyebrow:

I think the CTS looks like ass. I've read that Lutz really doesn't care for Cadillac's edge designs either and is looking to soften them and make them more luxurious. Honestly, I really don't know why the Catera was never available without a Northstar option. The Northstar is not a FWD only engine and would have made an excellent upgrade to the Catera. Add the 5-speed and the Catera is a nice family car when you need it and then when you want to rip some ass, FLOOR IT!

I like all kinds of cars and the Catera is but one of them. The other "American" car I LOVE is a 1994-1998 Mustang (yellow) Cobra. But a ratty ass blown engine Mustang from a recycler and start to building yourself a monster.



Which LS engine/transmission are you comparing with the Catera?

IIRC, the V8 LS did come with a 5-speed for a short time and if so, that one. Even if its just the V6, it has a 5-speed. The Catera never had a 5-speed. I hate automatics except for a city car.

Oh, can you guys just imagine having a Nortstar powered Catera (I prefer to keep the Caddy theme going instead of swapping a Vette engine) and adding the Northstar badge to the back. People think its kinda "ricey" until you drop the hammer and say aidios sucka!

http://www.chrfab.com/ = no information about them, but either them or EBAY is where I'd buy an engine for a rebuild. Too bad GM took a shit on Tim Allen :mad: and stopped him from being a tuner for Caddys. Just can't have new Caddys being anything more than blue hair little old lady wagons. :boring:

Brett
06-26-03, 10:59 AM
.
Just can't have new Caddys being anything more than blue hair little old lady wagons. :boring:


I think the XLR and V-series should finally put an end to that perception.

Lincoln has some decent cars, but being in a group of 4 people who have no automotive knowldedge, that wont beleive a word you say is difficult. They didnt believe me when i told them Cadillac outsold lincoln, they told me thats impossible, because they see alot more lincolns around then Cadillacs. Which I have to agree with, Tampa seems to be a Ford/Lincoln town

HotRodSaint
06-26-03, 11:52 AM
Scourge,

I was never fond of the stye of the Catera. It looked better as an Omega and probably should have been sold here as a Cheverolet.

While there are a few weaknesses to the CTS, it isn't unpleasant.

I think Cadillac, or someone who has some extra money, should race the CTS-V in the Speed World challenge. It should at least beat the Mustangs, if not the M3 and Corvette. That's something Lincoln can't do.

scourge
06-26-03, 11:57 AM
Racing a Cadillac? Would they even do it? I read that the Northstar race car served its three year life and now Caddy has quit racing. WHAT, you learn all you ever need to know in three years and you're done? :banghead: Seems like old habits at GM do die hard. :boring:

Night Wolf
06-26-03, 01:13 PM
Cadillac races in the LeMans

Katshot
06-26-03, 02:13 PM
Cadillac races in the LeMans

You mean "RACED in LeMans". Cadillac gave up when they didn't have immediate success. I think they underestimated what it would take to be truely successful in that race, and their focus has changed anyway. That's been one BAD problem with Cadillac in recent years, knowing when to give up on a BAD idea, and knowing when to stick WITH a good one.
And to the best of my knowledge, the Lincoln LS was never offered with the V8 and manual trans. They did offer a V6 w/manual and a V8 w/auto, but I am not aware of any V8 w/manual. I think the LS is a beautiful car but everyone I know that has one, has been dogged by recurring mechanical/electrical problems, and bad dealers.
There is no direct competition for all the Cadillacs from Lincoln. Lincoln has stated publicly that Cadillac is NOT their REAL competition. Probably a good move since Cadillac is having enough trouble building their reputation as a true player in the Luxury/Ultra-Luxury car market. If you want to be taken seriously, you should pick a more respected target like MB, BMW, etc.
And Scourge, I agree with you, I've always liked the Catera and felt it got a raw deal from Cadillac.

Allante North *
06-26-03, 02:20 PM
The Lincoln LS only offers the manual transmission with the 6 banger. If they offered the V8 with the 5 speed, I might be a player. I must admit that I have looked at them, but I prefer the manual tranny. The LS is a good looking car, but they need to step it up to attract the younger sporty crowd.

It seems that the almighty engineers in Detroit think they know whats best for the public. They don't know diddly! Cadillac killed the best looking car on the road, and now Ford is ending the Continental.

I like the CTS, but hated it when it first came out. It kinda grows on you, and the CTS-V is a very positive move. Look for it to be phased out in a few years if the almighty engineers have anything to say about it.

I would love to park a CTS-V in my garage, but will have to wait for the prices to fall like all American cars do. I'll let some unlucky sucker take the hit up front, while I pick it up for about $25,000 in a year or two. I would not buy an American Luxury Car new off the lot due to the fact that they lose value so soon. I might pick up a 04 CTS for my wife in the next year, but I'll have to wait for the CTS-V to come down.

Brett,

Glad you got some bucks for having to put up with some Lincoln Bozo's, but why did they pay you? Don't Shrinks cater to lincoln owners in your neck of the woods?

HotRodSaint
06-26-03, 03:02 PM
You mean "RACED in LeMans". Cadillac gave up when they didn't have immediate success. I think they underestimated what it would take to be truely successful in that race, and their focus has changed anyway. That's been one BAD problem with Cadillac in recent years, knowing when to give up on a BAD idea, and knowing when to stick WITH a good one.

In fairness, this is a GM motorsport issue, not to be pinned on the Cadillac division. (If indeed there is a GM motorpsort division.) But GM has developed a bad habit of cutting and running, rather than spending the money and hiring the talent needed to win. Sorry but winning in NASCAR doesn't matter from an engineering stance.

GM ran away from the competition in CART to the IRL. They are loosing to start up Honda and Toyota in the IRL who followed them over. They are even asking Cosworth, which is owned by Ford, for an engine to use in that series. They quit Le Mans because Audi was too hard for them to beat.

As you can see, I have no respect for GM's recent racing heritage. In fact, I question the premise that GM even has racing heritage. Ford can point to F1 and Le Mans victories, as well as drag racing and NASCAR. What does GM point too?

They need to take a look at their divisions and the demographics. Then look at a racing series that fit the brand. Pick 3 of each and spend what it takes to win. Until then, GM motorsports sucks.

scourge
06-26-03, 09:05 PM
Wow, three Tennesseans in a row here. The old guard at GM dies hard. I remember reading in Business Week that due to poor GM mismanagement over the past 3 decades, the company's long term financial underpinnings were not as solid as a cursory glance would suggest. Their deal with the retirement packages also comes to mind as a severe problem. Ford damn near caught GM and might have if not fo the Explorer/Bridgestone debacle. GM seems to have its head up its ass about NASCAR. NASCAR only appeals to a certain group of people. The rest of us or bored silly by that series or repetitive round-a-bouts. GM racing is not respected around the world and I don't see that changing soon. GM motorsports reminds me of Harley motorsports - lazy, cheap, and pathetic. Its not a question about whether or not American designers have the ability, its about their abilities being supressed in the insane pursuit of mediocrity. :banghead:

HotRodSaint
06-26-03, 09:43 PM
Wow, three Tennesseans in a row here. The old guard at GM dies hard. I remember reading in Business Week that due to poor GM mismanagement over the past 3 decades, the company's long term financial underpinnings were not as solid as a cursory glance would suggest. Their deal with the retirement packages also comes to mind as a severe problem. Ford damn near caught GM and might have if not fo the Explorer/Bridgestone debacle. GM seems to have its head up its ass about NASCAR. NASCAR only appeals to a certain group of people. The rest of us or bored silly by that series or repetitive round-a-bouts. GM racing is not respected around the world and I don't see that changing soon. GM motorsports reminds me of Harley motorsports - lazy, cheap, and pathetic. Its not a question about whether or not American designers have the ability, its about their abilities being supressed in the insane pursuit of mediocrity. :banghead:

Hey we agree! And it's about race cars! Who woulda thunk it.

So is this a race car? :cheers:

http://www.auto-news.de/grosbild/images/cad_nor_02_lmp_1.jpg

Night Wolf
06-26-03, 10:31 PM
Hey look, it has OnStar, that way if it gets lost or stolen at the track, the driver can call up and find his way again.....

.....wonder if they count that as a penelty :D

HotRodSaint
06-26-03, 11:18 PM
These car's just look so cool.

http://www.clubarnage.com/lm01/gallery/Race/Race5/DSC_3651.JPG

SoundAdvantage
06-27-03, 12:51 AM
I would rather Push A Chevy than drive a Ford, The only Ford car i ever liked was the 69' Mach1. Heres to :farting: FORD :farting:

scourge
06-27-03, 04:12 AM
So is this a race car? http://www.auto-news.de/grosbild/images/cad_nor_02_lmp_1.jpg

Not anymore since those ****ers at GM decided to shitcan the entire program. IIRC, the Northstar was an improving machine. It was never totally embarassed during its run. It signaled a real change for Cadillac. Then, GM pulled the plug and caddy falls down a notch once again. :banghead:

HotRodSaint
06-27-03, 08:55 AM
I would rather Push A Chevy than drive a Ford, The only Ford car i ever liked was the 69' Mach1. Heres to :farting: FORD :farting:

I wonder how many people out there are still brand loyal? I drive the ugliest **** because it's not a ****.

Personally, I'd like a CTS-V and an '05 Mustang in my garage.

If Dodge ever made a 'Cuda or Charger successor, I'd seriously look at them too. If VW ever...and Mazda...and BMW...and...

Night Wolf
06-27-03, 06:38 PM
I wonder how many people out there are still brand loyal? I drive the ugliest **** because it's not a ****.

Personally, I'd like a CTS-V and an '05 Mustang in my garage.

If Dodge ever made a 'Cuda or Charger successor, I'd seriously look at them too. If VW ever...and Mazda...and BMW...and...

Yeah, I perfer GM, I love GM, but some people will just trash Ford so bad, my experience with Ford has been good, and if I like something, then I like it..... I don't like Honda, but there are some cars that I do like from them, if I was spending a set amount of money, there are others I would go for before the Honda, but I don't mind them.

Mad'lac
06-27-03, 07:55 PM
I got that Caddy race car scale model!!!! They were selling them for $10 a piece. I only bought one.

scourge
06-27-03, 11:46 PM
I don't like Honda, but there are some cars that I do like from them, if I was spending a set amount of money, there are others I would go for before the Honda, but I don't mind them.


Like a mid engine Honda Del Sol. I'd be all over one in a second. small car, mid engine, RWD. DAMN!

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~yamamoto/delsol/images/middel/middel008.jpg

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~yamamoto/delsol/Customize/MidDel.htm

http://www2.famille.ne.jp/~mst-hide/event/sa_zero.html

http://p34car.hp.infoseek.co.jp/off/motegi01/01motegi8.htm

Night Wolf
06-28-03, 02:31 AM
Like a mid engine Honda Del Sol. I'd be all over one in a second. small car, mid engine, RWD. DAMN!

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~yamamoto/delsol/images/middel/middel008.jpg

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~yamamoto/delsol/Customize/MidDel.htm

http://www2.famille.ne.jp/~mst-hide/event/sa_zero.html

http://p34car.hp.infoseek.co.jp/off/motegi01/01motegi8.htm


nah.....that is one that I perosnally do not like, in fact I do not like any of Honda's "performance cars" I actuallly don't mind the styling of the new Civic (not the hatchback though)

if I wanted a car like you just described, I would get a '88 Fiero GT, and swap a NorthStar in, with a 5spd, and have a car that would kill that Honda in handeling, speed, accel, anything..... proably cheaper, and more fun.... I would perfer that :D

scourge
06-28-03, 05:43 AM
I see that yu're not familiar with Top Secret's 500hp+ Del Sol. Is it possible that Fiero could beat it? Maybe. Kill it? Ummmmm, no.

Night Wolf
06-28-03, 12:49 PM
I see that yu're not familiar with Top Secret's 500hp+ Del Sol. Is it possible that Fiero could beat it? Maybe. Kill it? Ummmmm, no.

I would still rather have a Fiero over a Del Sol

Elvis
06-28-03, 01:16 PM
Hell, a Del Sol IS a Fiero, or at least it's damn close. Only problem is, Pontiac had already implemented and abandoned the idea before Honda even stepped up to the plate.

ljklaiber
06-28-03, 01:20 PM
Big Crapola on that statement. I was a member of NASCAR from 1976- 1983, and alot of info was traded with Chevy on a weekly basis. Fundamental machining techniques, camshat profiling. valve and spring realtionshops etc , and airflow studies ,contributed a bunch to what is seen today ,,including the Northstar.

scourge
06-28-03, 01:38 PM
And just how much do NASCAR racecars of 2003 have in common with their strret nameplate counterparts?

ljklaiber
06-28-03, 02:19 PM
Certainly more than that Lemans Caddy had in common with the production cars. One example would be refined honing techniques and the use of torque plates on the blok, while honing . The final phase, called 'plateau honing', is being adopted, and the use of improved piston ring material, is also derivitive of racing experience. Coating of internal parts, such as piston skirts, and bearing surfaces, was directly ..Directly..the result of NASCAR team involvement.

ljk