: GM Closes High Performance Division--Bye, Bye Vs?



sefa01
04-29-09, 11:56 AM
Pontiac Is Dead; Is The Corvette Next?
What Detroit Will Build (and Won't) In Its Next Chapter

In remarks made in March about the auto industry, President Obama said, "We cannot, we must not, and we will not let our auto industry simply vanish." This is positive news for many, but it may actually signal the end of the consumer-driven American automotive industry.

Pontiacs We'll Never ForgetDepending on how active the Obama administration chooses to be regarding the operation of General Motors and Chrysler (the government already forced out GM CEO Rick Wagoner), bureaucrats may restrict the types of cars these two manufacturers sell in the post bail out future. Government leaders such as Nancy Pelosi have already voiced the opinion that Americans should drive smaller, more efficient vehicles. Conditions on the bail out funds may be the vehicle used to force GM and Chrysler to build only what Washington wants them to build. Additionally, changing emissions regulations will force Ford Motor Company and other producers to follow suit.

More information will surface, so it is too soon to accurately predict what GM and Chrysler may look like when they emerge from the Obama team's restructuring program. However, one can assess and offer educated conjecture about how President Obama's actions may affect the cars arriving in showrooms of the future.

Cleaner Cars

Bureaucrats want Detroit to build cleaner cars. Because facts don't generally make good sound bites, politicians and regulators do not highlight the fact that every new car and light truck in sold in the U.S. run nearly emissions free once the engines have warmed to operating temperature. Current regulations already mandate exhaust emissions so clean that in U.S. cities experiencing heavy pollution days (think L.A. in August), the gases leaving a new passenger vehicle's tailpipe are cleaner than the air entering the engine.

So what do politicians really mean when they talk about "cleaner cars?" It's all about carbon dioxide emissions. Environmentalists have convinced enough members of enough different government bodies that C02 emissions must come down to combat alleged global climate change. President Obama believes that man-made C02 is dangerous.

Avoiding ongoing arguments regarding man-made C02 emissions and its impact on climate change (whether it is major or non-existent), because of a Supreme Court ruling during the Bush administration, C02 can be regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency. New regulations are expected to begin impacting vehicles as soon as the 2011 model year.

With current technology, the only way to lower C02 emissions is for vehicles to consume less carbon-based fuel; gasoline, diesel fuel, natural gas, liquid propane, and coal-generated electricity.

Currently, government mileage targets are 35 mpg by 2020. The Obama administration may change this goal and increase the mpg even further. In general, meeting the "35" rule mandates small, lightweight vehicles with small, highly-efficient engines.

Expect more use of high-strength, light-weight steels such as boron. Ford already uses boron in its 2009 F-Series pickup to save weight while maintaining crash protection capabilities. More exotic and expensive materials such as carbon fiber will expand from use on exotic sports cars to more mainstream applications.

Regarding engines, manufacturers will attain more efficiency from smaller internal combustion engines. Technologies that contribute to added mileage include direct injection, variable valve timing, and auto-stop engines. High-performance models will utilize forced-induction such as turbocharging or supercharging. Diesel engines could also see expanded use (now that clean-burning diesels are available), but further tightening of C02 emissions could rule out this choice altogether.

The availability of hybrid powertrains will also expand considerably to include more vehicles and classes of vehicle. Some manufacturers have already announced long-range plans that show hybrid editions of every model offered. Types of hybrids will also expand beyond the current mild-hybrid (characterized by the Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid), single-mode hybrids (Toyota Prius and Ford Fusion Hybrid), and dual-mode hybrids (GM full-size trucks and SUVs). These hybrid types are parallel hybrid designs where both the gasoline engine and electric motors directly power the wheels. The upcoming Chevrolet Volt is a series hybrid; the Volt's electric motor provides acceleration while its on-board gasoline engine is used only to charge the batteries. Plus-in charging for hybrids is also just over the horizon.

The common trait with these new C02-reducing techniques is higher cost. Tomorrow's more efficient cars and trucks will be more expensive.

Disappearing Cars

In a move largely seen as giving in to Washington, General Motors recently closed it High Performance Vehicles division. The HPV team was largely responsible for GM's most exciting cars including the Cadillac CTS-V and the Chevrolet Corvette ZR1.

Bureaucrats have little use for performance-oriented V-8 powered cars, so don't expect cars like the Chevy Corvette, Dodge Viper, Chevrolet Camaro SS, or Dodge Challenger R/T to survive long term. Their survival is no longer tied to customer demand, but to the demands of the government that now controls the product portfolios and development dollars at GM and Chrysler. Recently, GM announced it was killing its Pontiac brand, a concept that seemed to define performance all by itself some decades ago. Now that brand is gone.

ahahnu
04-29-09, 12:05 PM
This is sad. For how much potential two, three and four years ago the horsepower war was waging, its sad.

The Tony Show
04-29-09, 12:09 PM
Pure speculation on the part of a writer for AOL news- not exactly the most reliable source for auto industry news.

JimmyH
04-29-09, 12:16 PM
:yeah:

This has been discussed before. I guarantee you, dissolving GMPerf is NOT permanent. It's a statement GM is making to the watchful eyes in the media. "We are refocusing our priorities, see?" Something like that.

Here is JimmyH's official prognosis: Q3, 2010 the auto industry will start to bounce back. Q4, 2010, the vendors will follow. Q2 2011, the whole auto industry will be in full swing. Q1, 2012, you are going to see a renewed GM Performance (along with their counterparts from all the other automakers) designing the next generation of high performance cars. They will NOT be big V8 powered cars. But they will be even faster.

Put it in the books.

VforMe
04-29-09, 12:17 PM
Blah, blah, blah.....there won't be anymore fast cars and its all Obama's fault. GMPD shutting down was last months news. The reason it was shut down is because Malibu's and Colbalts are what make money not V's and ZR1's. GMPD was a great way to have some fun and show what GM could really do in the world of fast cars but it has never been a way to stay in business, that's why its gone. If GM gets back on its feet again I'm sure you'll see the performance division come back. Just look back to all the shitboxes that were created after the fuel crisis of the 70's. We came back around from that and we will come back around from this.

JimmyH
04-29-09, 12:20 PM
Malibu's and Colbalts are what make money not V's and ZR1's.

:umno:

Trailblazers and Sierras (and the like) are what made GM money. Not anymore. Which is why they need to restructure, to figure out what IS going to make them money.

bandit6678
04-29-09, 12:27 PM
:umno:

Trailblazers and Sierras (and the like) are what made GM money. Not anymore. Which is why they need to restructure, to figure out what IS going to make them money.

The truck divisions are still what are making them money, there also what is making ford, and toyota all there money. I really dont think they are loosing much money on the high performance division however because there is a large demand for them. The problem is going to be now that the govt owns much of GM they will push what they believe are responsible "green cars" and crap like that down our throat and ignore the true potential of a leaner GM. The Prius loses money for Toyota, but They make a killing off their light trucks and larger cars so they can afford to build them

JimmyH
04-29-09, 12:36 PM
The truck divisions are still what are making them money,

sure, on the ones they are actually selling. which is offset by the money they are losing on the excess inventory of trucks sitting in parking lots.





I really dont think they are loosing much money on the high performance division however because there is a large demand for them.

very true, unfortunately irrelevant, since the negative image of GMPerf overpowers the demand from its customer base


The problem is going to be now that the govt owns much of GM they will push what they believe are responsible "green cars"

this is why you cannot listen to the media. The government has not GIVEN a dime to the automakers, they issued MILLIONS in low-interest LOANS. (unlike the BILLIONS of no-string-attached GIFTS they handed to the banks)

bandit6678
04-29-09, 12:46 PM
The auto industry is still in the govt's pocket now, It was just the other day that the govt said they did not like GM's plan for restructuring so they werent going to give them anymore money and force them into chap. 11 if they did not come up with a better plan.

bandit6678
04-29-09, 12:49 PM
very true, unfortunately irrelevant, since the negative image of GMPerf overpowers the demand from its customer base


right and who do you think has this neg image of performance vehicles?? the enviro-goofballs who are runnin the show, people who have never run a god damn thing in there very existance, and now there going to tell GM what they can and cant produce??? i dont like it!! lol

VforMe
04-29-09, 12:52 PM
:umno:

Trailblazers and Sierras (and the like) are what made GM money. Not anymore. Which is why they need to restructure, to figure out what IS going to make them money.

I think you missed my point. Cars that only sell 4,000 units a year don't make money.

BTW, I think this thread now officially has nothing to do with a V and should be moved.

JD03Cobra
04-29-09, 12:52 PM
The scary part is the Government will own over half of GM and become the biggest holder when this is finalized...I wouldn't hold your breath about the performance cars coming back. I say it's over for the next decade. Corvette, Camaro...under normal conditions I would say they are safe but under the liberal government...yeah right.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=afZWYG7joTRU&refer=us

bandit6678
04-29-09, 12:57 PM
The scary part is the Government will own over half of GM and become the biggest holder when this is finalized...I wouldn't hold your breath about the performance cars coming back. I say it's over for the next decade. Corvette, Camaro...under normal conditions I would say they are safe but under the liberal government...yeah right.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=afZWYG7joTRU&refer=us

I agree completely; however, sorry for getting political (was not my intention) I just dont like what I see and fear what I see coming.
-end rant

814V
04-29-09, 01:02 PM
if obama has his way we will all be driving prius's while holding hands singing kumbaya..

heavymetals
04-29-09, 01:06 PM
Talk of the demise of V's is premature (maybe).

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/latest_news_reviews/2010_cadillac_cts_v_coupe_spied

nmaier2201
04-29-09, 01:21 PM
I do like those tailpipes.... nice link heavy. yeah time will tell I guess.... they could can the coupe like they canned the holden elcamino !!!

Then the only V coupe you'll ever see will be in Leno's garage. (and it'll be that one featured in the pic :) )

JD03Cobra
04-29-09, 01:32 PM
Talk of the demise of V's is premature (maybe).

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/latest_news_reviews/2010_cadillac_cts_v_coupe_spied

I have seen one of these test mules on the road here in MI, no suprise as they are working on cars 3-4 years ahead. I still find it hard to believe they roll this car out the door under the new Government management. I hope i'm wrong.

liqidvenom
04-29-09, 01:33 PM
:yeah:

This has been discussed before. I guarantee you, dissolving GMPerf is NOT permanent. It's a statement GM is making to the watchful eyes in the media. "We are refocusing our priorities, see?" Something like that.

Here is JimmyH's official prognosis: Q3, 2010 the auto industry will start to bounce back. Q4, 2010, the vendors will follow. Q2 2011, the whole auto industry will be in full swing. Q1, 2012, you are going to see a renewed GM Performance (along with their counterparts from all the other automakers) designing the next generation of high performance cars. They will NOT be big V8 powered cars. But they will be even faster.

Put it in the books.

this is it in a nut shell. I work for an auto company and if our performance models were built in this country they woul dhave had to close their doors as well. its just alot of fear and panaic over nothing. once things rebound all the performance cars that people are willing to pay for will come back. they make the companies tons of money, plus they get other vehicles sold since most performance vehicle owners have needs for other cars and can afford them.


Blah, blah, blah.....there won't be anymore fast cars and its all Obama's fault. GMPD shutting down was last months news. The reason it was shut down is because Malibu's and Colbalts are what make money not V's and ZR1's. GMPD was a great way to have some fun and show what GM could really do in the world of fast cars but it has never been a way to stay in business, that's why its gone. If GM gets back on its feet again I'm sure you'll see the performance division come back. Just look back to all the shitboxes that were created after the fuel crisis of the 70's. We came back around from that and we will come back around from this.

cobalts dont make gm jack. its all about profit margin and the man power cost involved in making a vehicle. if it cost gm 2grand more to build a car due to health care and UAW cost then toyota then how do you want them to make that 2k back on all the cobalts and malibus the sell? vetts, v's, and most trucks/performance vehicles turn a serious profit and most likely eat up that 2k loss easily.



I think you missed my point. Cars that only sell 4,000 units a year don't make money.

BTW, I think this thread now officially has nothing to do with a V and should be moved.


you can sell 100000 cars but if you have to under price them compared to something and that eats away all your profit then what good is that. Look at what nissan had to do with the GT-R. They had to come in and undercut the z06 to be relavant but that was them selling the car at a loss. each one cost nissan money. now the price has grown by 10k almost and i still dont think they are making money on them. tons of prius, cobalts, focuses ect are sold in america and most of those come with little or no profit at the end of the day. but vettes, vipers, mustangs etc tend to turn a pretty good profit for these companies... even more so once even higher performance editions come out.



all this blame obama talk is getting kinda tired on here. HE doesnt own anything. its better then letting GM go into a real bankruptcy where the creditors are set to rip the company apart and discard the rest. in a real situation like this come chinese company would step in and by each factory, design etc thats left after gm has been parted out to pay back the creditors. you woul dhave then the cherry cobalt, and the acura cts, ford silverado.

in this fashion EVEN if they go to a bankrupcy its setup in a way that there would still be a gm. The banks dont have that option. this way we can say in X yrs gm will be healthy, hopefully dumped the UAW and their mess and can get back to building performance cars again. If anything I think these politicians are doing gm a favor. then Gm can pay back the loan and buy the gov out and run everything themselves in the coming decades.

my point of view from someone who actually works in the auto industry and gets affected by what happens in detroit.

CIWS
04-29-09, 01:38 PM
I have 3 new black GMPD t-shirts thanks to Luke at Lindsay Cadillac:D

liqidvenom
04-29-09, 01:38 PM
I have seen one of these test mules on the road here in MI, no suprise as they are working on cars 3-4 years ahead. I still find it hard to believe they roll this car out the door under the new Government management. I hope i'm wrong.

the government IF they ran gm, would be looking to make money and be able to compete globally. by that token a v coupe would be a viable product since it competes with germany and japan and hopefully be able to do so on their home court as well.


if one positive thing that comes out of all this mess with gm is they take a look at some other players and start to offer al their great cars & trucks worldwide under the names we have working so far.

JimmyH
04-29-09, 02:31 PM
right and who do you think has this neg image of performance vehicles?? the enviro-goofballs who are runnin the show, people who have never run a god damn thing in there very existance, and now there going to tell GM what they can and cant produce??? i dont like it!! lol


And I don't like the IRS. But what can we do about it?

JimmyH
04-29-09, 02:33 PM
its just alot of fear and panaic over nothing.

^^you can apply that statement to just about every single problem in our country right now (although you would have to correct the spelling)

liqidvenom
04-29-09, 02:35 PM
when you are on the net when u are at work you type as quick as possible.


plus i was trying to find our how someone keeps going home with m3's....

JimmyH
04-29-09, 02:36 PM
plus i was trying to find our how someone keeps going home with m3's....

????

liqidvenom
04-29-09, 02:38 PM
????

i found out... and im a bit jealous..


he says he is "testing issues"


:rolleyes:

CadzillaTN
04-29-09, 04:18 PM
the govt cant give away high dollar perfrmance cars to people who dont work.

obamanomics 101

Cowan480
04-29-09, 04:28 PM
Pure speculation on the part of a writer for AOL news- not exactly the most reliable source for auto industry news.

Yeah that!!!! ^^^^^^:thumbsup:

SPECULATION

JD03Cobra
04-29-09, 04:33 PM
the government IF they ran gm, would be looking to make money and be able to compete globally. by that token a v coupe would be a viable product since it competes with germany and japan and hopefully be able to do so on their home court as well.

Telling the CEO to step down, killing Pontiac & owning the majority of common shares of GM (a public company) is heading the direction of running GM...JMO.

While the V maybe a viable product you can't tell me that a limited production run of 3000 or so per year is a big money maker for GM. It's a small market that will be tough to bring back. GM is better off making a Camaro Z28 with the V motor instead of the CTS if they are so profitable.

I'm a local to Detroit, many family members that work for GM, Ford both white & blue collar. It's pretty tough around here for them.

rand49er
04-29-09, 05:06 PM
the government IF they ran gm, would be looking to make money and be able to compete globally. ...They don't give a rat's a$$ about making money, are you kidding? It's totally naive to even think that.

They (the Administration) want to appease the UAW and the ultra left enviromentalists ... that's their power base. We're in a new age where cost effectiveness is meaningless. Wind and solar energy have an extremely limited ability to be cost effective in a very, very few geographical areas. They don't care! They're pushing them regardless of cost. Profit? If the Feds want something, they won't care one whit if it makes sense money-wise or not. All of us MBA guys might have just as well thrown our tuition down a drain somewhere. Global warming? What a joke! We'll be in another ice age in another several hundred years regardless of CO2 levels. That's been the pattern the last 500,000 years ... it'll be the sixth ice age over that timeframe since it happens roughly every 100,000 years whether humans have been doing anything or not.

Steve said it accurately: This is the end of a consumer-driven auto industry.

:alchi:

bandit6678
04-29-09, 05:41 PM
:werd:

Slithering_Joe
04-29-09, 05:42 PM
The government wants you to drive one of these:
http://thewere42.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/gem-peapod-600.jpg

liqidvenom
04-29-09, 07:26 PM
Telling the CEO to step down, killing Pontiac & owning the majority of common shares of GM (a public company) is heading the direction of running GM...JMO.

While the V maybe a viable product you can't tell me that a limited production run of 3000 or so per year is a big money maker for GM. It's a small market that will be tough to bring back. GM is better off making a Camaro Z28 with the V motor instead of the CTS if they are so profitable.

I'm a local to Detroit, many family members that work for GM, Ford both white & blue collar. It's pretty tough around here for them.

i never said that everything that goes on i like. I didnt mind the old CEO... and i think he got a raw deal.

but lets be honest here. gm has a good thing going but they have lots of sucky products they need to drop. pontiac for all the good the g8/g6/solstice is doing still has the rest of the re branded chevy/toyota products saddling it down. my hope is that they take whats good from pontiac and turn it into good chevy vehicles. the days of having same platform cars competing against each other isnt going to do any company any good.

also this isnt the first time the gov has loaned money to an auto company and owned part of it. but once they paid the loans back ( or at least started to) they began buying out the shares. i guess its like collateral for a loan.



They don't give a rat's a$$ about making money, are you kidding? It's totally naive to even think that.

They (the Administration) want to appease the UAW and the ultra left enviromentalists ... that's their power base. We're in a new age where cost effectiveness is meaningless. Wind and solar energy have an extremely limited ability to be cost effective in a very, very few geographical areas. They don't care! They're pushing them regardless of cost. Profit? If the Feds want something, they won't care one whit if it makes sense money-wise or not. All of us MBA guys might have just as well thrown our tuition down a drain somewhere. Global warming? What a joke! We'll be in another ice age in another several hundred years regardless of CO2 levels. That's been the pattern the last 500,000 years ... it'll be the sixth ice age over that timeframe since it happens roughly every 100,000 years whether humans have been doing anything or not.

Steve said it accurately: This is the end of a consumer-driven auto industry.

:alchi:

the UAW has been getting spoon fed for the past 8yrs.... where was the outrage about them bleeding gm dry? I want the UAW to go away and rot in a hole, they dont have the numbers to explain how they have so much clout in the past 15yrs.

as for the rest you need to get a better look at how the auto industry works and what is subsidized and by whom over the last 100yrs.


the auto industry will always be consumer driven due to the fact that if the doomsday senerio you are trying to brainwash people with comes true then only Gm would be build cars the gov wants and people dont. then people will go buy ford/honda/toyota/etc and thus close gm down.

you dont get your loans paid back and your stock to mature when the company you helped out goes bottom up.

c4ss
04-30-09, 01:30 AM
I have 3 new black GMPD t-shirts thanks to Luke at Lindsay Cadillac:D


Now let's just hope they don't become antiques :alchi:

tdyguy2k
04-30-09, 06:21 PM
The government wants you to drive one of these:
http://thewere42.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/gem-peapod-600.jpg

The government could shove that ugly POS up their collective a$$es!!

NormV
04-30-09, 07:54 PM
Obummer!

814V
04-30-09, 08:51 PM
The government wants you to drive one of these:
http://thewere42.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/gem-peapod-600.jpg

you mean OBAMA wants you to drive one of these

liqidvenom
04-30-09, 09:25 PM
you mean OBAMA wants you to drive one of these

because the president always has dictator type powers in america. the rest of the highly paid people in washington dc do nothing i guess?

VforMe
04-30-09, 09:28 PM
because the president always has dictator type powers in america. the rest of the highly paid people in washington dc do nothing i guess?

I agree, all of this blame Obama shit is getting tired. I didn't like Captain Clusterf**ks invading of Iraq but I didn't just sit back and blame everything on him.

JD03Cobra
04-30-09, 11:49 PM
I agree, all of this blame Obama shit is getting tired. I didn't like Captain Clusterf**ks invading of Iraq but I didn't just sit back and blame everything on him.

Thats funny...everyone else did. Rick Wagner took it in the butt for GM, was it completely his fault? No...it comes with the job.