I don't quite get it. VW's get very high marks for assembly and fit and finish, are well designed and perform very well for cars in their market segment. They are not cheap to buy, but not outragiously priced either. The only thing I can come up with is that they are buying their components from the Russians or perhaps the North Koreans. I really just don't get it; while german electrics were never anything to write home about they seem to be the achilles heel of Teutonic autos. Maybe someone can clue me in here.

Mexican assembly? I'd always heard that the least reliable ones were mexican built and the more reliable ones were German built...

I am not sure, all I know is the wife 02 TDI was a pile of poop.
It was by far the worst car I have ever owned and I have had a bunch of 2.2/2.5 Dodge/mopar turbo cars.

German electrics are known (over here at least) for being shoddy over the past 10-15 years, especially on Mercs and Audi's with BMW not far behind (I'd say personally that BMW were worse but most ppl disagree with me).

First I've heard of VW electrics being dodgy though...

Audi AG = Volkswagon AG.

Explains why they both have electrical problems.

(I'd say personally that BMW were worse but most ppl disagree with me)

I would disagree with you. :thumbsup:

Having owned a series of VWs in the 70s and 80s, I got the impression that the expection of needed maintenance and service was higher than most cars. From talking with folks who lived in Germany, it seemed to be a German thing. Good products require regular, and good service.

Having owned a series of VWs in the 70s and 80s, I got the impression that the expection of needed maintenance and service was higher than most cars. From talking with folks who lived in Germany, it seemed to be a German thing. Good products require regular, and good service.

While I agree that European cars have required a higher degree of regular maintenance (whether they are of British, French, German or Italian) the problems encountered with VW/Audi products seem to happen to cars within a short period after purchase. Also the standards of reliability have greatly improved for all manufacturers, regardless of their continent of origin, and the Germans seem to falling short in the reliability of their cars, with VW/Audi leading the pack on this downward slope.

It's a strange thing.

A friend of mine bought an Audi A3 which had nothing but problems, both electrical and mechanical (2 steering racks and all new front suspension?) and then traded it in for a Skoda based on the same platform which has been flawless despite being the poor cousin... Her prior SEAT, also on the same platform, was no trouble either.
Another friend with the same Audi also has problems and again traded it in for a Skoda which has been flawless...

Yet the Audi cost more and had a higher apparent fit and finish (I preferred the interior materials over the Skoda).

Buying a Volkswagen, you expect cheap maintenance. You expect it to cost as much as a Toyota, Honda or Chevrolet, but it's always much higher, even for simple things, such as oil changes. IIRC, the price for an oil change on a four cylinder Jetta, Golf or GTI at the dealer is about $55.00. Granted, it's once every 6 months or so, but that's outrageous when compared to a Honda, Toyota or Chevrolet...all of which are between $23.99 and $33.99..

IIRC, the price for an oil change on a four cylinder Jetta, Golf or GTI at the dealer is about $55.00. Granted, it's once every 6 months or so, but that's outrageous when compared to a Honda, Toyota or Chevrolet...all of which are between $23.99 and $33.99..I pay about $35 for an oil change at the local Valvoline quick lube (it's owned by the True Value hardware store, so they don't try to bilk you with stuff you don't need like those clowns at Jiffy Lube). That's for the Valvoline high-mileage oil. I think for an oil change with regular Valvoline it's either $25.99 or $29.99.

Buying a Volkswagen, you expect cheap maintenance. You expect it to cost as much as a Toyota, Honda or Chevrolet, but it's always much higher, even for simple things, such as oil changes. IIRC, the price for an oil change on a four cylinder Jetta, Golf or GTI at the dealer is about $55.00. Granted, it's once every 6 months or so, but that's outrageous when compared to a Honda, Toyota or Chevrolet...all of which are between $23.99 and $33.99..

If you get stuck with a TDI, forget about it. Special oil, I used to have to buy it off line.
G12 anti-freeze, which was 22 bucks a a gallon at the dealer. Don't look for it at your local parts store. My wife's Jetta required more love then I could or was willing to give to any car.

In Canada, VW has a loyal and dedicated rabid following, they sort of know that they will pay through the nose for repairs, the problem is the everyday person who VW wants to attract will not tolerate the expensive parts (everything) and Labor. Any VDUB that needs to be bought better have an ironclad extended warranty. After 4 years they will need it. The GL designation on the Golf and Rabbit and Jetta stands for German Lemon.

I drive a 2005 VW passat TDI GL wagon, oil changes at 10,000 miles and they were still about $50 at my last service at my dealer, just about to go in for its 50,000 mile service, I have had no problems with it so far

You guys talk about electrical gremlins in VWs, BMWs, and Audis ... heck, I thought that the Mercedes models were the worst in that regard just based on Consumer Reports (aka Rice Reports).

Are they all (German makes) worse than average in this regard?

German manufacturers have never been really electronicly oriented. But they're very good mechanically.

In World War II, American submarines used electrical computers for torpedo gyroangle calculation, while the German U-boats used a mechanical computer (basically a box full of gears) for the same purpose. Why? Because the Germans knew they couldn't depend on electronics.

They don't make very dependble electronics, and they know about it. :p

The Japanese make very good electronics, and Americans are pretty good at everything, hence why the autos from Japan and America have better electronics.

German electricals have never been up to par with the Americans and the Asians (especially the asians), but they're not as bad as the British electrics...

You guys talk about electrical gremlins in VWs, BMWs, and Audis ... heck, I thought that the Mercedes models were the worst in that regard just based on Consumer Reports (aka Rice Reports).

Are they all (German makes) worse than average in this regard?

You are correct. Mercedes has been by FAR the worst of all those makes, ESPECIALLY everything from the current decade.

Really? Mine has been OK, but maybe that's because the design came out in the early '90s. I thought Audis and VW's had all the electrical gremlins...mainly on the late '90s, early '00s models.

Really? Mine has been OK, but maybe that's because the design came out in the early '90s. I thought Audis and VW's had all the electrical gremlins...mainly on the late '90s, early '00s models.

Yes, anything ENGINEERED from 1996-onward is garbage. Pretty? Sure, Fast and Groundbreaking stuff? Absolutely! Still garbage though. Even though I usually blame everything from 2000 onward, I always forget that the problems REALLY started with the W210 E Class that came here in 1996. What an unredeemable shitbox of a car. Little bugger always sneaks by my memory.

Modern Merc designs from 197x through about 1992 are what I consider the best vehicles they ever produced. Don't get me wrong, they still have their problems, but the REAL garbage came along after that W210. Not many other cars in which you can press the seat adjustment button and the radio turns off.

I also have found that other than my 2003 745i, which EVERYONE knows is the worst car BMW has ever produced from a technical standpoint, BMWs have been no worse to me than any Cadillac product. What really cemented the solidity of BMWs for me was my 2003 Range Rover. Can there be ANYMORE of a clusterf--- than a BRITISH car engineered by GERMANS? Yet and still, with all the complaints people have about Land Rovers, my 2003 (first year no less of that BMW body style) had MINIMAL glitches. The gears in the telescoping mechanism for the wheel broke, and the washer reservoir got a crack in it. That was it.

Audi/VW does have alot problems, but I don't have any real experience with their stuff other than my 2003 Passat GLX which outside of a bad catalytic converter I didn't have any issues with during my short ownership of it (I hated that slowpoke of a car).

I always forget that the problems REALLY started with the W210 E Class that came here in 1996. What an unredeemable shitbox of a car. Little bugger always sneaks by my memory.

Modern Merc designs from 197x through about 1992 are what I consider the best vehicles they ever produced. Don't get me wrong, they still have their problems, but the REAL garbage came along after that W210. Not many other cars in which you can press the seat adjustment button and the radio turns off.

As a child, I remember seeing the W210 at the autoshow and thinking it was the beginning of the end of the good Mercedeses. I hated those headlamps and I still hate how M-B went from big squarish headlamps to circular ones. The new ones are getting better though.

I also agree that the best Mercs were produced between the early '70s and early '90s. So many classics.... W124, W126, W140, R129, W201, W202, W116, G Class, etc etc.


Can there be ANYMORE of a clusterf--- than a BRITISH car engineered by GERMANS?

Oh, you mean like a Mini Cooper? :D