: Thinking of rebuilding motor... questions..



blown02GT
03-27-09, 12:50 PM
I have a 99 concours that has been sitting in the driveway for a while. My brother was driving it and blew a rod through the block. Anyhow, I'm looking to get a new block, rods, pistions, etc.. and rebuild it. Have a few questions beforehand and figured I would ask here since I've never worked on a cadillac before.

1. If I get a bare block, is it able to be machined (if it's a used block) or are the walls too thin on the castings in this motor?

2. If it can be machined, where would be a good place for a bare block?

3. Does anyone know where a good place to get the internal parts for this engine would be?

4. Anyone have any source for the OEM service manuals for these cars?

5. If a used short block would be a better option.. Where to buy?

I've rebuilt several motors, but never in a cadillac, so this isn't exactly new to me, but the cadillac motors I know have more to them than the regular motors I'm used to. I know the heads will need redone, machine work, etc... Just can't seem to find anything good on these motors as far as the bottom end. If it would be more feasible I'll just take it to a junk yard, but if I can do this cheap enough, I would like to save the car.

Thanks guys!

Ranger
03-27-09, 01:33 PM
WAY to much work and money. Get a junkyard motor. Lower ends are usually bullet proof so I can't imagine how your brother threw a rod through the side of the block. Before you install the "new" motor, get a stud kit from Jake http://www.northstarperformance.com. Pull the heads, drill & tap the holes and install the studs with new head gaskets and you'll be better than new and it will last forever.

blown02GT
03-27-09, 01:53 PM
I kinda figured that it was gonna be alot.. I've been looking around junk yards, but they are so hard to trust around here and shipping is a PITA. I'll keep in mind about the heads.. i had read that on here. Thanks for the advice!

32vmonte
03-27-09, 01:53 PM
I agree on the studs from what I have researched already.

As for things to make the motor built.....there is a site for that but $$$$ is required. They have rods and a crank for 1000+HP and pistons in any compression ratio you want.

My block was bored .030 over and im guessing thats the most if at all you can go because of the open deck style block the cylinder walls are to thin.

blown02GT
03-27-09, 02:35 PM
yeah these thin wall castings don't allow much more than that.. I found a motor with 87,000 on it for $700 so that is probably the way I will go that way I will have extra parts laying around in case anything breaks, since all I need is the block. I'm still amazed that the rod went through the block. From what I've read on these cars, it's pretty hard to do, but my brother isn't very smart about cars, he probably ran the oil dry or something stupid.

STSS
03-27-09, 03:27 PM
Sounds like he hydrolocked it to me.

Where are you located?

Submariner409
03-27-09, 04:04 PM
32Vmonte, What block did you have bored to +.030" ? According to your signature and profile you don't own a Cadillac.

If you're building a Northstar for a sand rail or Fiero-like install, your building and parts observations do not pertain to a FWD GM PCM controlled daily driver Cadillac.

For a service engine overhaul there are no oversized pistons, rings, rod or main bearing inserts. You cannot bore the service cylinders nor can you machine the crank. Any scoring or out-of-round and it's new crank time. The rods have cracked caps, so there's no resizing there, either. Curiously, if you install new rings and/or pistons you don't hone the cylinders. Better read a real service manual before you start throwing away money. I know that you can get both short and long block Northstars from GM, but they aren't cheap, by a long shot.

You might be able to adapt a later Northstar (pre-2004) into a 99 Concours, but earlier than 98 is not possible. Different engines and transmission controls. Different PCM (ECM) programming. You need an engine/transmission in the same VIN package as original, because they use 2 different final drive ratios. I think the Concours is a 3.71, but don't quote me. Do a lot of homework.

32vmonte
03-27-09, 06:36 PM
32Vmonte, What block did you have bored to +.030" ? According to your signature and profile you don't own a Cadillac.

If you're building a Northstar for a sand rail or Fiero-like install, your building and parts observations do not pertain to a FWD GM PCM controlled daily driver Cadillac.

For a service engine overhaul there are no oversized pistons, rings, rod or main bearing inserts. You cannot bore the service cylinders nor can you machine the crank. Any scoring or out-of-round and it's new crank time. The rods have cracked caps, so there's no resizing there, either. Curiously, if you install new rings and/or pistons you don't hone the cylinders. Better read a real service manual before you start throwing away money. I know that you can get both short and long block Northstars from GM, but they aren't cheap, by a long shot.

Huh, havn't had the motor apart yet. My local machine shop which has been around for about 40 years found oversized bearings for the rods.

So whats the deal with the crank then? I spun a bearing and Im currently pulling the motor. Your saying that my machine shop pulled up and priced magic oversized rod bearings in there computer for a 96 N*?

The block like I said is a 96, it is in a 95 monte, and has the cadi PCM with it along with a 4t80e. The motor was bored .030 over, and has different pistons in it. Along with ported heads and cams and puts 450 to the wheels on 93 octane.......I specifically said it cost's $$$$$$$$$$$$. Just gave him the info that it is possible.

IDK how they bored this un borable motor but it is. This motor is also daily driven and could drop right in yours or anyone elses.

SO what you are saying is these cranks are not able to be turned???

STSS
03-27-09, 07:02 PM
and puts 450 to the wheels on 93 octane

:histeric::drink2::bsflag:

Got nos? :nox:

Got a dyno sheet?

Do some searching, subs not lying.

Thanks for the laugh tho.

Submariner409
03-27-09, 07:22 PM
Bat crap. Absolute cockamamie bat crap. Read my post. Read it again. NOT sand rails. NOT Fieros. Northstar daily driver service engines !!!

As Dexter Manley (Washington Redskin) once said "You can s&!t the fans, but you can't s&!t the players".

If you or your shop can come ANYWHERE CLOSE to putting 450 WHP in a NA FWD Seville/Deville platform, you'll all be millionaires overnight.

You're in a Cadillac Northstar forum, primarily populated by FWD Seville/Deville/Eldorado owners.

Is a Monte Carlo FWD ?? I have no idea. I wanna see the exhaust system and headers on this thing, also the "ported" heads. (and if your engine spun a bearing, it might just be due to the radiused rod journals having been turned flat. Darn wonder the crank didn't let go entirely.)

Very unlike me, but "BWAAAHAAAAHAAAAH!!!!!!!" :hide:

32vmonte
03-27-09, 10:03 PM
Here is a video of the car running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2DH_-cdyrg

Never seen anyone hate so much on N* BS than ever.

It ran a low 13 sec pass on 20inch low pro tires=shit for hooking.

Exhaust is stock manifolds, 3inch downpipe, to a flowmaster outlaw muffler, then it y-pipes to 2.5 inch to the side exits. No cat.....

The 450 to the wheels BS, you got me on the dyno sheet.

The heads are ported and polished, with 272 reground cams and upgraded valvetrain to go with it.

It has arias pistons which bumped it to 13.1 compression.

Here is a flow chart for the heads if you want to call it

http://www.chrfab.com/Head_Work.htm

If you look around there site you will see that there mid power level cams will give you about 50 HP.

Headwork who knows they claim around 100 but I would say 50-75 HP increase.


SORRY FOR THREAD JACKING,

and now if we can end the, oh there is no way it makes that much. Then maybe I can get some tips and information on how to get this thing running again.

Thanks for the doubts but Ill provide dyno sheets and videos once its rebuilt.

32vmonte
03-27-09, 10:11 PM
Bat crap. Absolute cockamamie bat crap. Read my post. Read it again. NOT sand rails. NOT Fieros. Northstar daily driver service engines !!!

As Dexter Manley (Washington Redskin) once said "You can s&!t the fans, but you can't s&!t the players".

If you or your shop can come ANYWHERE CLOSE to putting 450 WHP in a NA FWD Seville/Deville platform, you'll all be millionaires overnight.

You're in a Cadillac Northstar forum, primarily populated by FWD Seville/Deville/Eldorado owners.

Is a Monte Carlo FWD ?? I have no idea. I wanna see the exhaust system and headers on this thing, also the "ported" heads. (and if your engine spun a bearing, it might just be due to the radiused rod journals having been turned flat. Darn wonder the crank didn't let go entirely.)

Very unlike me, but "BWAAAHAAAAHAAAAH!!!!!!!" :hide:


The spun bearing was caused by an extremely blown head gasket, that lead to the spun bearing.

Dex+oil=fried motor.

Called the builder of the motor today and he said they helicoiled some of the threads.........didn't think anyone bothered with that method on these motors. More than likely the head bolts pulled out on me.

Im gonna give the headstud kit a try. It seems like the best solution. We shall find out when I throw a kit on it :nox: :burn:



Oh yea by the way sorry if my HP numbers aren't dyno proven but the thing pulls hard. Ill put it to you this way, all four tires where replaced at the same time and well the fronts are completely gone while the rears look and have around 5000 miles on them. This was all done from a roll.

Not to mention the previous owner said it "should be" around 450

PPL call the BS flag all you want Ill just have to prove it I guess. Im not trying to prove anyone wrong but the car is what it is.

STSS
03-27-09, 10:51 PM
It sounds nice, but I still dont think its pushin 450 at the wheels. All I know is if I had a car with 450 at the wheels, I would have a dyno sheet.

Who out there knows enough about a N* to get over 550 at the crank, but they dont know enough to sert the block?

Did you buy the car this way, or was it a project?

32vmonte
03-27-09, 11:28 PM
It sounds nice, but I still dont think its pushin 450 at the wheels. All I know is if I had a car with 450 at the wheels, I would have a dyno sheet.

Who out there knows enough about a N* to get over 550 at the crank, but they dont know enough to sert the block?

Did you buy the car this way, or was it a project?


I bought it this way. I dont know how to sert a block because I have never done it lol. There is always learning how to.

Forgot to mention that important detail about buying it like this. The guy who made it didn't know how to do any of the work he just payed a shop to do it all.

I plan on doing all of the further work my self. That would be why I'm around a site like this. Hopefully I can get a little help:thumbsup:

STSS
03-28-09, 12:41 AM
Well I wouldnt take all of those things the guy told you as gold... if you spend some time (more than a few hours, days, or weeks) doing some searching and reading, youll understand why BS was called so fast...

Just a question, what attracts you to a monte with a N*. I know you didnt do it, but I just wonder why someone would go thru the work to put that amazing motor in that car... Ide put it in a Fiero much sooner.... RWD...

STSS
03-28-09, 12:44 AM
I dont know how to sert a block because I have never done it lol.

I'm just saying that anyone who knows anything about a N* knows to sert or stud the block if the motor is ever pulled. If someone could do some internal magic to get 500+ from a N*, they would know to sert EVERY hole.

32vmonte
03-28-09, 12:51 AM
I'm just saying that anyone who knows anything about a N* knows to sert or stud the block if the motor is ever pulled. If someone could do some internal magic to get 500+ from a N*, they would know to sert EVERY hole.

Unfortunately they weren't experienced with the N*. So they helicoiled (sp) it like I stated in another post. Thats prolly the main reason im in this situation now with blown HG's.

I see what you are saying I just read it wrong. They should have serted every hole an not helicoiled just few. :thepan:

Ranger
03-28-09, 01:22 AM
Helicoils are a guaranteed failure. They will never hold up to the required torque. I'm surprised that they didn't pull on original torquing. However did the original repair had no idea what he was doing and should never have touched it, AND SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE REPAIR.

blown02GT
03-28-09, 01:56 AM
Sounds like he hydrolocked it to me.

Where are you located?
wow, this thread turned crazy! hahaha

That is what I originally thought when I saw the puddle of oil, so I know it had at least SOME oil in it. However, it wasn't raining the night it happened and hadn't rained at least 3 days prior. I've never heard of a situation of hydrolock happen without it raining out or having water on the road. Although, that is not to say it can't happen, I just haven't heard of it.

Anyhow, I'm in Cecil, Ohio.. I see you're in Ohio too :D The motor I found is at a salvage yard in Circleville, just south of columbus, so I may run down there and pick it up.. still debating what the best thing to do is with this thing.

Submariner409
03-28-09, 11:30 AM
32v, not hate.....just calling a spade a spade. I would dearly love to be able to twist another 100 hp out of my 2002, without squeeze or turbo......if the transmission would hold it reliably.

There are pages and pages of CHRFAB work, links, and engine pictures down in Northstar Performance. Been there for years. Even CHRFAB does not advertise their specialized engine products for daily driver Northstars.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that someone can build a 500 or even 1,000 HP Northstar, but it will never go in a FWD Seville/Deville/Eldorado package. Hell, it used to be common to build a late 50's Chrysler hemi to 1,800HP for AA Fuel work. You can build anything you want nowadays, but not for your daily driver, which is what this thread is.

Perhaps the solution would be a thread or forum for Northstar engine work reserved for custom cars and rail work. That would separate the engines and make the distinction that "this probably won't work in your Mom's car"!

Nobody's dissing you for rebuilding the engine, and I really wish you all the success in the world, just don't infer that that engine will drop into the majority of cars in the thread. Use Jakes studs........if those liners are +.030 you'll need the clamping pressure to stay constant - no head bolt pulls allowed.