I've been curious about the new Lincoln Town Car Ultimate, so I went and took a test drive. Being that the Town Car was the only real competition for the car I've been driving (1995 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham), I figured this test-drive might give me an idea of what a brand new Fleetwood Brougham may feel like.

To beginwith, the fit and finish is, of course, very nice. The leather seats are very soft (just the way I like them) and the quality of the leather was very nice - a little better than my Fleetwood Brougham (it should be). Oddly enough, it didn't feel as roomy inside. If I'm not mistaken, the current Town Car is about a half an inch wider than the Fleetwood - but it didn't really feel that way inside. It felt a little bit smaller. I'm actually more comfortable in my car.

The Town Car feels exactly the same over bumps as my Fleetwood - though there's less of a boaty feel. On a smooth surface, the Town Car felt a little bit softer, actually - but I've got 70,000 miles... The steering was definitely tighter and it did feel a little safer around turns.. The looks of the interior are very nice.. The dash is very classy-looking. The stereo that comes with the Town Car is also very impressive..

Nonetheless, not all that different from what my car feels like. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but I'm guessing that what the Fleetwood Brougham and Town Car had in 1995 is about as good as you're going to get - even today. I haven't driven in a Lexus LS, Acura RL or Infiniti Q45 yet - but one of these days I will and I'll give a review in comparison to Cadillac's best of 1995. :D

I agree with most of what you say. However, the stereo is both UNderpowered, at 150 Watts and a pain in the neck to learn to use all of its features. After 1 year & am still learning!!

I find that mine's very 'tossable' around turns and that the back end really follows the front very well, giving the feel of a much smaller car. The
H-U-G-E "B" pillar (especially on the passenger side, creates a blind spot that really bothers me. (Caddy has this too). She needs the V-8 from the Mustang Cobra, to be complete! :rolleyes:

i cant get over the lack of space in the town car considering its overall size

Well, I didn't get to blast the stereo or anything - but it's better than what I've got in mine.. It IS mind-boggling how there's less room in this car than my Fleetwood.. It felt more like a DeVille or a Seville in the front seat.. Not small by any means - just not as big as I was expecting.. Lincoln has a really nice car here - but I hope they don't intend on going any smaller. If I'm not mistaken, Brett, your LS430 is smaller on the outside - but bigger on the inside... :hmm: :drinker

Well, I didn't get to blast the stereo or anything - but it's better than what I've got in mine.. It IS mind-boggling how there's less room in this car than my Fleetwood.. It felt more like a DeVille or a Seville in the front seat.. Not small by any means - just not as big as I was expecting.. Lincoln has a really nice car here - but I hope they don't intend on going any smaller. If I'm not mistaken, Brett, your LS430 is smaller on the outside - but bigger on the inside... :hmm: :drinker

Big Fords typically don't have as much rear seat legroom either. My Grand Marquis had a lack of legroom in the back, while my FWD Fleetwood is actually a couple inches more room in back than a Broughm! (some months ago we posted the numbers) Outside appearance is certainly deceptive.

How did the power of the engine compare to your Fleetwood?

Sal, if you buy that Lincoln, you'll have to create a NEW Lincoln Forum. :p

I dont think sal would trade his FWB for a lincoln...

I kinda like hte older generation.. the 94-96 was a nice time for the town car..... they look odler but oh so comfy...

I drove our rental 2003 Town Car Signature Series in Hawaii last summer on vacation and got it up to 60 mph on I think it was H1 in Honolulu and down a bunch of city streets. I loved it so much the car was great! It made me miss my Mark VII back at home which was suffering from air ride compressor blow out and had no suspension. I took my Mark off the road about two weeks after we got home from that trip but wow, that Town Car was zippy.

Big Fords typically don't have as much rear seat legroom either. My Grand Marquis had a lack of legroom in the back, while my FWD Fleetwood is actually a couple inches more room in back than a Broughm! (some months ago we posted the numbers) Outside appearance is certainly deceptive.

How did the power of the engine compare to your Fleetwood?

Sal, if you buy that Lincoln, you'll have to create a NEW Lincoln Forum. :p

1991 Fleetwood: 43.3 inches
1991 Fleetwood Brougham: 41.2 inches
1995 Fleetwood Brougham: 59.8 inches Wow! hehe
2003 Lincoln Towncar Cartier L: 47 inches

I'd rather spend a few thousand dollars getting my car looking and driving like it just rolled out of the showroom than spend $50k on the Towncar. Not that there's anything wrong with the Towncar, though...

1991 Fleetwood: 43.3 inches
1991 Fleetwood Brougham: 41.2 inches
1995 Fleetwood Brougham: 59.8 inches Wow! hehe
2003 Lincoln Towncar Cartier L: 47 inches

I'd rather spend a few thousand dollars getting my car looking and driving like it just rolled out of the showroom than spend $50k on the Towncar. Not that there's anything wrong with the Towncar, though...

59.9 in. rear seat legroom!? OMG! Hail to the king of Cadillacs. :worship:

I have too much room with 43.3 inches!

I've been curious about the new Lincoln Town Car Ultimate, so I went and took a test drive. Being that the Town Car was the only real competition for the car I've been driving (1995 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham), I figured this test-drive might give me an idea of what a brand new Fleetwood Brougham may feel like.

To beginwith, the fit and finish is, of course, very nice. The leather seats are very soft (just the way I like them) and the quality of the leather was very nice - a little better than my Fleetwood Brougham (it should be). Oddly enough, it didn't feel as roomy inside. If I'm not mistaken, the current Town Car is about a half an inch wider than the Fleetwood - but it didn't really feel that way inside. It felt a little bit smaller. I'm actually more comfortable in my car.

The Town Car feels exactly the same over bumps as my Fleetwood - though there's less of a boaty feel. On a smooth surface, the Town Car felt a little bit softer, actually - but I've got 70,000 miles... The steering was definitely tighter and it did feel a little safer around turns.. The looks of the interior are very nice.. The dash is very classy-looking. The stereo that comes with the Town Car is also very impressive..

Nonetheless, not all that different from what my car feels like. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but I'm guessing that what the Fleetwood Brougham and Town Car had in 1995 is about as good as you're going to get - even today. I haven't driven in a Lexus LS, Acura RL or Infiniti Q45 yet - but one of these days I will and I'll give a review in comparison to Cadillac's best of 1995. :D
Sal, You had me worried for a minute :rolleyes: Well there are two issues that you did not mention that i am curious about.
One is the Performance of the Town car VSs the Fleetwood, and the other is the Crash Test Results of both vehicles.
Can anyone bring us the Stats on these two issues? I would love to see them.

Town Car got 5 stars in both front seating posistions and 5 Stars on side impact. deVille got 3 stars front & 3 side. This has been on the web all over, and now "gone looking for it" I can't find it.

Town Car not $50,000. There is now a $4,000 fact to buyer rebate, plus dealers can give $2,500 off of sticker, plus there is back door money for the dealer that SOME might split with you. That money is $1,200. So, it's possible to get $7,100 off of sticker, and a Ultimate model with the works lists for $46,000 and can be had for $39,800.00. (Not Fifty).

Yes, she's "Zippy" but liking ALOT of power, I still wish they'd drop in the Cobra V-8 from the 2003 Mustang Cobra. The car feels VERY refind to me, driving it everyday. What I really appreciate is no a single squeek, rattle or creak. Stone Dead quiet inside. After coming outta a 1994 Grand Prix G.T.P. the Town Car seems to have loads of interior room to me! ;) I love it.
(Still on the learning curve, however, on the stereo!)

Well, for under $40k, the Town Car is a very, very nice car..

Oh and I can't believe I still have never found a competent salesman. While I was in the showroom, I had asked to see an '03 Cartier or an '04 Ultimate. They told me there was a Signature I could look at - and I told them I'd rather see an Ultimate or Cartier - one of the reasons being there are different (softer) seats. I don't like the seats otherwise. They just couldn't understand how the Cartier and Ultimate models had different seats.. How could none of them know this? They sell Lincolns all day long. It's their business..

Same goes for a Chevy dealer I was in not long ago. A perspective customer was wondering why some of the Vettes had better gas milage on the stickers than others. The salesman looked up and down the car and couldn't figure out why - and guessed that the mileage varies from car to car.. I spoke-up and told them that some models have higher-performance gearing than others.

When are car dealerships going to start hiring car salesman that actually WANT to be "car" salesman? I think car salesman (with the exception of a few) are ignorant (in regards to automobiles) and just sent in their resume because they needed a job. That's fine for the salesman - but stupid for the dealership...

I had asked to see an '03 Cartier or an '04 Ultimate. They told me there was a Signature I could look at -

Sounds like the time 5 years ago I was looking to buy a used LTC, and they showed me the oldest ones and the dealer had the nerve to say "now there's a Lincoln you can afford." :rant2: I guess I looked young and he thought I couldn't afford a newer one? I wish they wouldn't stereotype. I even notice that when you are in the showroom sitting in the driver's seat (door open) they kneel down beside you and glance at your watch to see what kind it is, ie.Timex or Rolex LOL! They got their tricks. I settled on the Grand Marquis.

I think that more dealers have to become car enthuisiasts or should have been in the first place IMO.

These days, I just go in with sweat-shorts and a white undershirt. I don't want dealers coming up to me wasting my time. I'd rather them see me as a bum and mind their own business. If I have the money and want to buy something, I'll be very loud and let everyone in the dealership know I want to see a car...

Otherwise - yes, car dealers should be enthusiasts to some extent. Atleast enough to know what they're selling.. The guy I was riding in the car with yesterday was telling me about how the Ultimate had a more powerful A/C unit.. Come on.. When are human-beings going to wake up and move-on to the "next level" of intellect?

The name "ULTIMATE" is dead for '05. (One year only usage - '04). The line up is altered for '05.

Signature is the base model.
Limited is the premium model.

The Executive model is now sold only to livery companies & coachbuilder companies.

There is a Limited "L" the stretch model.

In '03 (mine) the top model was the Cartier Limited. Now the Limited losses its prefix of Signature or Cartier.

Hint: Join AARP. I know you're not over 50, but you "could be" on the form. It's worth $500.00 addl. rebate, & the cost to join is $25.00 & the magazine you'll get for a year is great! Funy, funny stuff in it.

The guy I was riding in the car with yesterday was telling me about how the Ultimate had a more powerful A/C unit.. Come on.. When are human-beings going to wake up and move-on to the "next level" of intellect?

If I go to a dealership with the cloths you describe, I won't even be approached!

Oh, I've heard about those extra special powerful AC Lincoln blower motors, they are flown in from Switzerland and gold plated to boot. :p I wish dealers would stop the bs because don't they realize many potential customers have more knowledge than them in certain issues, especially with information sources like the net, etc. I wonder how many seniors, women, or men who are not car enthuisiasts are taken advantage of because they walk in with no knowledge what so ever, and actually trust the salesmen? Sorry Sandy, no offence. ;) They probably don't even get the rebates, after all, if they aren't advertized, the dealers don't have to tell them about rebates, do they?

Thanks for the heads-up, Sandy..

The '03 Cartier I was looking at yesterday had 7,000 miles on it and they wanted $39,000... I'm guessing I really don't need to say any more...

MOST salesmen HATE cars, because they are around them 55 hours a week, trying to sell the things, to ignorant buyers, who DON'T wanna learn about the car, just haggle, haggle, haggle. Most are too DUMB to know when they have been given A GOOD ... no, make that fantastic price!! Quote them $300 UNDER dealer cost, and they still wanna shop. The internet is a blessing BOOM. Many are now educated enough to make a smart decession! Remember, the name is SALESMAN, not educator! :helpless:


To Sal:

Here are INVOICE prices for the 2004 (FOUR) Townie....

$40,770 for the Ultimate
$00,795 Destination
$01,388 Limited Edition
$01,388 Pwr. Glass MoonRoof (smae price - not a typo)
$00,431 HID Headlights
$02,700 Navigation
$00,257 2-Tone Paint Selection (No Charge Option on Limited0
$00,526 Remote 6-Dosc CD in Trunk
$00,170 Trunk Organizer & Picnic Basket
$00,780 Chrome Wheels (Standard with Limited)
$00,109 WhiteStripe Tires
$00,518 Pearlescent Metallic White Exterior Paint Color

Add up what you'd want, and then add $900.00 for profit, and then subtract $4,500 for Factory to you rebate and then try to get the 1/2 of dealer back door money. It's $600.00. Some will give, some will not...the reasons are too involved to go into here, quite complicated.

IF youi come up to NYC, go to Maplecrest Lincoln - Mercury in Union NJ. Contact me if you want. We are tight there. They sell many cars to my family. The Democrats in the family buy Lincolns & the Republicans buy the Caddies....Go figure....I can;t :)

They are priced between a loaded with everything Buick Park Avenue Ultra and a stripped naked DeVille Base model.

I paid $40,000 for my Cartier Limited **IN** 2003 (April '03) BRAND NEW with every option except Navigation, which I do Not need, because....to quote my friends, "Sandy never goes anywhere !!" Pretty much true. It's 15 months old, with 3,024 miles on it!!

I paid $40,000 for my Cartier Limited **IN** 2003 (April '03) BRAND NEW with every option except Navigation, which I do Not need, because....to quote my friends, "Sandy never goes anywhere !!" Pretty much true. It's 15 months old, with 3,024 miles on it!!

Got ya beat, my Dad's "new" DTS is 17 months old with around 1,000 MILES. I want him to drive it more in case there are bugs the warrenty will take care of. He NEVER played a cassette tape in the '91 Fleetwood I got now, and there was a factory defect I had to fix! ($355.00) They like the Grand Marquis I sold him so much, the DTS sits. :hmm:

Don't worry, your 60 takes the award for being the lowest mileage around here of any older car! I'm #2 :p

The Sixty special has gone 831 miles per year, while the Town Car has traveled 201 miles per month, or at the rate of 2,412 a year. Sadly, the Townie lives outside from April thru October. The Caddy lives in the garage 365 days a year. In November, and until April 1st the Townie gets into the garage, otherwise....the OTHER toy lives in there. From November 'til March 31st the OTHER toy goes into commercial heated, dehumidified storage ;)

The Sixty special has gone 831 miles per year, while the Town Car has traveled 201 miles per month, or at the rate of 2,412 a year. Sadly, the Townie lives outside from April thru October. The Caddy lives in the garage 365 days a year. In November, and until April 1st the Townie gets into the garage, otherwise....the OTHER toy lives in there. From November 'til March 31st the OTHER toy goes into commercial heated, dehumidified storage ;)

Your gonna have to buy some old beater car like my old 1970 Fury to kick around in so the LTC can be kept pristine for long after we are gone, and the next owner takes delivery LOL! Maybe we should start a museum because the cars in our families don't seem to age much. ;)

When are car dealerships going to start hiring car salesman that actually WANT to be "car" salesman?

Who, exactly, would WANT to sell cars for a living?

I know that I could do very well at it, but I would only pursue a job like that if about four other things went sour on me first. I'd be worried about the stigma that goes with selling cars. I'd be semi-ashamed to tell my friends.

And most of all, I wouldn't take any crap from a sales manager who tried to pump me up with some stupid motivational tricks. Motivation has absolutely NOTHING to do with selling. The harder you try the more likely you are to fail.

I have absolutely no clue what you are speaking of. Stigma? I sold cars for 27 years, did very well, made alot of friends, sold alot of repeat customers, handled fleet accounts for the dealer I worked for, sold many, many units to the public utility in the area, vans & trucks, etc. Sold fleet bids to large drug company, and enjoyed it, because I like cars! Got a new demo every year (of my choice), many times 2 a year. Went to awards ceremonies, was awarded a Rolex watch, had many nice dinners, recieved other awards, when single, met many girls who came in & had many dates with them. Met my wife on the showroom floor when she came in to look at cars, as well. It was a good, honest job, albiet way too long hours. Finally the hours and the haggling caught up with me, and I got out of it. It's a very hard & tiring job when everyone who comes in wants to haggle, and I got tired of that, and began giving the absolute lowest possible price from thje get go. Not good. Nobody would believe the 1st price was my rock bottom, and they didn't buy anyhow.
If I ever returned, I'd ONLY go with Saturn. They got it right. The price on the window is what you pay. Now, with THAT outta the way, I can sell the car, instead of trying to sell the freaking price!
Most salesmen don't know crap about the car, because MOST customers only wanna be concened about the $$$$ and not the car. With Saturn, the price is totally removed from the discussion. It's easier, better for the consumer, and a relaxed atmosphere for all involved.

Who, exactly, would WANT to sell cars for a living?

I know that I could do very well at it, but I would only pursue a job like that if about four other things went sour on me first. I'd be worried about the stigma that goes with selling cars. I'd be semi-ashamed to tell my friends.

I think selling cars is respectable (especially if I got a Rolex ;) ) but I also think there is a heirarchy of respect. I think it is more respectable to sell NEW cars than used. I think it is more respectable to sell Cadillac or BMW's than Kia, etc. I keep thinking about that 1980 movie with Kurt Russel called "Used Cars." They focussed on the plad suit stereotype for humour of the used car salesman.

I agree that some salesmen try too hard and it is annoying. On my test drives, the dealer sits in the back seat and never shuts up, at the same time I had several questions for him but never get a chance to ask! It depends on the salesman. It sounds like Sandy was very successful and had the right "mind set" for the job.

p.s. I actually haggled $1,000 off an Ion anytime I want it, all I had to do was ask. ;) My Dad saved thousands because of haggling when other dealers told him "that is the rock bottom price!" So it is difficult to find the "right" dealer, and if you can you are very lucky IMO.

I didn't mean to give the wrong impression, and I'm sorry if my comment about the stigma offended anyone. I have had many bad experiences with unscrupulous car salesmen, and fortunately have only been "taken" once. I've walked away from liars and idiots five times for every one car that I've bought.

But, in fairness to Sandy, and being respectful for his professionalism, the liars and idiots probably didn't stay in the business for very long. But I'm amazed at how many bad ones there are compared to the good ones.

This series of articles confirmed many of my suspicions, and it also confirms what Sandy said about Saturn.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html

I'll try in a nutshell to explain WHY folks have trouble with car salesmen.
(Bear with me, not easy to do in small space) ~

Every dealer in America pays EXACTLY the same price. It's a frnachise, recall, to give special prices to special dealers is a breach of American Franchise laws.

That said. Now, you've got every owner taking huge advertisments advertising that they have the lowest prices, and blah, blah, blah. To get people "IN" ~ then they advertise unrealistic prices, actually UNDER their own cost, or AT their actual cost. This is the "HOOK" - to bring the suckaas in, as the owners oft say. Now, here they come, the customers. But first, our pay plan. The biger the profit, the more we earn as commision. Said another way.....WE are rewarded thru pay for screwing the customer! First the owner advertises unreal prices, promises HUGE trade in allowances, and then rewards us for turning the tide. This in turn angers the customer!! We're the p_icks! Come in on false pretence & get brought back to the real world! The bigger the profit, the more commission we make.
Now, that said..... How much do you pay these grown men for a salary ??
How's $100.00 a week sound to you? Okay, mortgage, wife kid(s), and your take home is $75.00 a week How ya gonna do it? You're 42 years old, and you SALARY is $3,900 a year!! YOU'RE EITHER GONNA GO ON WELFARE, or screw the eyeballs out of the customers!

Now....Saturn. There is $3,000 PROFIT in the sale of every Saturn!!!!! Not the lousey $700 we tried to make on Dodges!! No discounts - sorry he lied to you Ralph! So, the consumer knows this fact, and doesn't "shop around" but buys in his/her own trade area (close to home). Now, the professionalism takes over. We all know he's paying sticker, so now the salesman MUST have product knowledge, professionalism, poise, class, tact, and diplomacy. Suddenly, the consumer wins. Why? He get the respect he deserves, he gets free loaners, he gets the BEST technicians, he gets everything great, because the dealers do not have to spend unbelieveable $$$$ on newspapers ads, radio ads and such, to lure him in. The price is the same in Butte Montana as in Long Island NY. So, the salesperson has to have top flight product knowledge and be trained.

The car may not be the fastest/sleekist/most luxurious/sexy/ BUT to the "Average Joe" it's the BUYING EXPERIENCE that brings him back for his 4th & 5th Saturns!

People (average) get real confused, real quick, about model differences, options and all ..... it's too much for them. BUT they can all understand PRICE.
and you know what? Saturn salespeople make double, sometimes triple what other new car salesmen make, and their customers LOVE them!

I'd sell a new Dodge, after hours & hours of price-fighting and make a grand total of $700.00 profit, of which I'd earn $140.00. The Saturn guy had no price fighting, and made $3,000 profit, or which he'd make $600.00.
327 percent MORE commission AND NO PRICE FIGHTING.

Guess where all those seasoned good professional salesmen are todaY ??????
S * A * T * U * N

No discounts - sorry he lied to you Ralph!



Well, I know their policy about "no haggling" and I visited him at the Saturn dealership several times last summer. At the time I was VERY CLOSE to selling my Caddy to my doctor who was intersted, but he low balled me and I couldn't let it go. Therefore last summer, I tested several cars in the 20,000 price range which in Canada, covers an Ion 2 with nice options. I also noticed last summer that hardly anyone was buying them. I think one of the reasons was they don't haggle. I've talked to many Saturn owners on the street, asked them how they liked the car, and they all had positive experiences, but when I asked them if they think they got a good deal, they said they didn't care because of Saturn's policy! I've noticed that some buyers, especially older ones cannot be bothered to haggle. This is true of older members in my family who will buy a decent new car, and they say, "I can't be bothered to haggle." Well I like Saturns, but I will always try to get the best deal I can. I believe he would have given me the $1,000 dollars off despite the policy because if times are tough in a certain area (farmers poor here now, everyone moving to Alberta, etc.) they are desperate enough, they will do it. I don't think he would go back on his word because his reputation would be at stake?

I also tested (don't hate me) the Toyota Corollas. Guess what, in Canada, Toyota was just fined one million dollars because they were not haggling, and it says right on the sticker "dealer may sell for less." I tried negociating a price with him last summer also, and he wouildn't budge! He was honest with me, and guess what he said? He said that they (Toyota) just don't care if they don't haggle and get into trouble with consumer groups because they are in such demand, they get that million back and much much more! How's that for business policy? Honda was going to give me $700 dollars off and they are in very high demand. So I wouldn't buy a Saturn (I don't like their policy, it is just for lazy, defeatist people who don't stand up for themselves IMO, or can't be bothered to realize they are getting a raw deal) and I don't like Toyota because they are openly ripping people off. You know where that left me? A Dodge SX 2.0, fully loaded for $20,000! This is the car I would buy right now IF I ever sold my Caddy. It's also got the most supportive, comfortable seats I've ever experienced. I would buy it for the seats alone, ok. :p They were going to cover the tax, plus give me another $2500 off the sticker! NO ONE can beat that. The dealer is still getting their commission, I'm getting a good price, and everyone is happy! Good thing I kept my Caddy because dealing with all the BS is a pain in the butt.

p.s. Saturn wanted $200 extra for a block heater! (an essential item here) and 40 dollars for floor mats! I know they are quality cars, and they are compared to Toyota for quality, etc. but with Chrysler, you get those included. I love the Ion, but I felt I would be totally ripped off if I bought one, especially if other dealerships are willing to give a discount. For people who don't care, more power to them. I suppose if I were rich I wouldn't care either. I believe there is always room to haggle. The price of steel was also dirt cheap last year, however, this year it is up because China's economy is booming, so dealers MIGHT be less likely to haggle this year IMO.

One more thing, I was with my Dad when he haggled with EVERY cadillac dealership in the Province, (by phone) and I can't count the number of times he was told "that's as low as we can go or we're losing money!" Well, every one of them were calling my Dad for a month and lowering their price they were so desperate to sell! I guess the commission on a $70,000 dollar Cadillac must be generous or something. The dealership in Moose Jaw even sent us two of the 100th Anniversary sets of pins, just as a gift to sway his buying power their way! I got one of the sets.

I believe that if a car company wants a satisfied customer, they should "give a little" and they may get a lot in return. My Dad stuck to his guns, and walked away saving thousands.

I respect you Sandy, but I seriously doubt you paid full price for your Lincoln? Don't take my words the wrong way, I'm just being as honest as I can with you. I can't understand why anyone would willingly, knowingly pay full price for something that expensive and sleep at night.

Town Car got 5 stars in both front seating posistions and 5 Stars on side impact. deVille got 3 stars front & 3 side. This has been on the web all over, and now "gone looking for it" I can't find it.

Town Car not $50,000. There is now a $4,000 fact to buyer rebate, plus dealers can give $2,500 off of sticker, plus there is back door money for the dealer that SOME might split with you. That money is $1,200. So, it's possible to get $7,100 off of sticker, and a Ultimate model with the works lists for $46,000 and can be had for $39,800.00. (Not Fifty).

Yes, she's "Zippy" but liking ALOT of power, I still wish they'd drop in the Cobra V-8 from the 2003 Mustang Cobra. The car feels VERY refind to me, driving it everyday. What I really appreciate is no a single squeek, rattle or creak. Stone Dead quiet inside. After coming outta a 1994 Grand Prix G.T.P. the Town Car seems to have loads of interior room to me! ;) I love it.
(Still on the learning curve, however, on the stereo!)
Sandy, I was just wondering if you ever had the opportunity to drive a 95' Fleetwood like Sal owns ? The crash test i was looking for was between the New Ford lincoln and Sal's 95' "Body on Frame" Fleetwood.
The performance issue is between your "Zippy" 5.0 and his "Ballzy" 5.7 LT1
I was just curious what the Lincoln had to offer that the Cadillac didn't in Two areas, Safety and Performance. Not bells and whistles :rolleyes:

.. How much do you pay these grown men for a salary ??
How's $100.00 a week sound to you? Okay, mortgage, wife kid(s), and your take home is $75.00 a week How ya gonna do it? You're 42 years old, and you SALARY is $3,900 a year!! YOU'RE EITHER GONNA GO ON WELFARE, or screw the eyeballs out of the customers!

Dealers here make a hell of a lot more than $400 per month! They get an hourly rate for being there 8 hours a day, plus any comission. Since that's a full-time job, it seems unrealistic. (but I guess things are different down there?) Why would anyone do it when they could make more being a garbage man, or even a labourer for a construction company?

Things may be different in Canada. Here, in America, a dealer signs an agreement stating that he will sell every new Saturn at window sticker price. If he discounts the car, he stands to lose his franchise. GM employs "mystery" shoppers who constantly check to see if salesmen are cutting the price.

No, I have never driven a RWD Fleetwood. I own a FWD 1993, but I know that is not the same. The numbers tell te story. I am sure the 1993-1996 Fleetwood (RWD) has more power on tap than the 2003-2004 Town Car.

Ralph, you missed the point, totally. I was trying to explain the WHY factor. As to WHY people don't trust car salesmen & why car salesmen "rip" people off. Sorry you missed it.

We are only the front men. I really don't wanna rip anyone off. It's the dealership OWNER(s)... They advertise low ball prices, to get people IN. Then they pay us based upon how bad we "rip them off"
At Saturn, we don't have to rip people off, argue, fight, lie, concel, bait & switch and mislead.....in order to make a decent 2004 profit on a $20 to $70 thousand item. It's sold like groceries at the supermarket. When you pay $ 3.49 for a container of orange juice, do you feel like you are getting ripped off? That is the manufacturer's retail price for the item.
It's the discounting that is the cause of all the fighting! Sell it like a loaf of bread, and the consumer benefits from great service (ask a Saturn owner) and they get treated in the showroom like the good folks that they are should be treated.
I always tried my hardest to treat people fairly, but when I told them that a certain car would cost them $14,500 and I knew that our actual invoice was $14,135 and they shopped at a rip 'n tear dealership who quoted them $13,955 for the identical car ($180.00 UNDER invoice) then came back to me, I had no choice but to lie to them and match their price, and then begin playing bad games. The highway stores LOW BALL and therefore the non highway stores have to do the same. Anyhow, it all stinks, & I grew to hate it.
In the end, Saturn has it all down right! Just ask the owners.

Ralph, you would get a A Dodge SX 2.0, :bonkers:
There is a nice 98 STS on a lot in town for $17,000.00
I did not think they have small car out west, maybe a small truck.
Nobody has mention the money the dealer makes if they reach their sales target from car companies.

""Nobody has mention the money the dealer makes if they reach their sales target from car companies.""

True! However, almost 100% of all the dealer principals I've ever known, live way-high on the hog. Expensive Boats, Trailers, luxury homes....in short, THE works! I'd venture to say at least 50% of them are living higher than they can really afford. Therefore, like many,, the GREED factor sets in! I quit a job over just that!
Owner had 2 boats, one luxury, one speed, 2 luxury homes, (each near a million in value), a flashy high maintenance wife, a new Avanti Sports Coupe, 3 motorcycles, an in-ground pool at each home, landscaping that cost more than all 3 salesman made in 2 years and more. One day we-3 asked him for a small raise. We wanted to go from commission of 20% of the profit in the deal, to 25% of the profit in each deal. He turned us flat down! The next month he took away our Demos, and told us to use our own cars. Then we 3 walked out, never to come back.
But....we fixed his tush but good. Before we left, we ordered 3 Bonneville Broughams each with every option available on them, for a total of 27 options. Unfortunately, we "forgot" to include Air Conditioning on each of them. 'Yup, all three arrived, and on Sundays (closed) one of us would check them out every week. They were there, on the ground, with floor plan being paid on them for 14 months! We understood that he finally shipped 'em to Maine to sell them there. GREED

I don't think being a car saleman is anything to be ashamed of at all. You can make a great living out of it. I wouldn't be embarrased at all.. And I know, Sandy, that car salesmen aren't educators - but they should know what they're selling. They should love cars. They shouldn't just be there because they can't find another job. You don't have to be an educator to know what you're selling. I don't need to be educated when I go and buy a car. But I find it very distracting and annoying when the salesman knows less than I do about the car he's showing me...

.

Ralph, you missed the point, totally. I was trying to explain the WHY factor. As to WHY people don't trust car salesmen & why car salesmen "rip" people off. Sorry you missed it.

We are only the front men.

WHY=profits, that's why. I thought I implied that when I gave my Dad's example and they kept lying to him saying "that's as low as we can go", etc. ;) You must try seeing things from the buyer's point of view and not as a dealer. Many dealers gave us the impression they cannot be trusted, and in some cases, the dealership lost my Dad's Caddy sale over $100.00!!! It's true like you said, the dealer is the front man, but the dealer is also too quick to sometimes say "we can't go down another $100," when they could have checked with the manager. Therefore that tells me that the dealers can exert some power in the decision making regarding a discount or not, which means they just want that extra little bit of commission. Greed.

My Dad felt bad for some of the dealers but in one case a dealer quoted my Dad a price (rock bottom) and the next week he upped it! Well, when a dealer does that, we walk away, but not before we tell the manager how we were treated! The way we viewed it, our money is good elsewhere.

Ralph, you would get a A Dodge SX 2.0, :bonkers:
There is a nice 98 STS on a lot in town for $17,000.00
I did not think they have small car out west, maybe a small truck.
Nobody has mention the money the dealer makes if they reach their sales target from car companies.

That would be a temp car until I could afford a real one again. ;) It would be nice to have a warrenty, and get better gas mileage with our prices, but it's got no prestige what so ever. I was comfortable in it. :hide:

Ralph.....Pleeezzzse ....

the dealer is the front man (to quote you)

The damn dealer comes in 3 times a week in many places. Few, if any customers ever see the dealer.

The salesman is the front man!!!!!!!!
The Manager is the middle man!!!!!!!
and the dealer is out on the fairway trying for a hole in one !!!!

IF the grosses are down (profits in deals) the G.M. gets chewed out, but good, and he in turn fires salesmen!!!!

It's a business. I am looking at it from THAT vantage point.

Unless it's a Saturn dealership, our job is to make as much $$ as possible.
Our income depend upon that, our jobs depend upon that as well.

Personally speaking ~ if a customer came in, and treated me with respect, and was SINCERE, I'd give them 1, 2, or 3 hours, however much time they needed/wanted, answered all their questions and gave them a fair price.

**IF** they came in acting like a wise@$$, loud and fresh, told me they were out shoppin' 'round and that i should give them MY BEST PRICE (this in under 10 minutes since they opened the door of the showroom) and told me that they were out "gettin prices" ~ then I gave them my card, and low balled them. They need to go out & get an education on prices. Each dealer will do the same. Finally....somewhere, they'll tire out & write a deal, only to find out THAT dealer cannot deliver for that price, then they get angry and leave and go to the next highest price dealer....same thing, there.

Now they're working they way back up the price ladder, until they find one that can/will deliver. They've had an education, they are worn out tired, annoyed at their own stupidity, and that of the salesmen (who actually outsmarted them) and eventually they'll buy the car for just about what I would have 3 weeks prior!

I'll tell you this. It sucks to be an honest salesman, because "Buyers are Liars" ~ I worked across the street from a Ford dealer. I was friends with a salesman there. (BTW, he had a Masters degree in business ADM). Customers would go back & forth from us (Dodge) to him. He & I would be talking to one & other on the phone ABOUt the customer!! That was waiting to cross the street. They'd tell him they were looking for a car for their daughter, for the springtime, and then come in and tell me they were looking to buy a car TODAY for themselves....all different stories.

Some buyers are very nice. I ALWAYS treated them fairly, and took care of them in the shop, too. I'd bend all the way over for those decent people. I threw out the nasties, and they never even knew they had been thrown out, THAT was the great part.

Anyhow, been out of it now for 8 years. THANK GOD !!

I'm posting this again because I don't think anyone read it.

Everything Sandy has posted is true, which is why I would be hesitant to seek a job selling cars, even though I know I could do well at it, given enough time to build a clientele and do it the right way.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buyin...62/article.html

Sandy, make sure your car isnt in the chassis recall.....


I love the new Towncars....they really have improved and the interiors are great.....my grandfather is actually thinking of getting rid of his 94'Q45 and his 85'500SEC for a used 03-04 Town Car Cartier...or 02-04 Deville DHS/DTS.....im actually leaning towards the Town Car for him because they are coming out of two cars with great interiors.......and they dont really like the interior of the Deville.....The town car is a great car now.....cant wait for a bigger motor though.

I have no regrets with my Townie. I really love it, but my 1993 Sixty Special has the classic lines and "presence" that the Townie will never achieve. The Townie is like a 37 year old average looking woman in a 3-piece navy blue business suit. The "Sixty" is like the Queen of England at a formal affair.

""Everything Sandy has posted is true, which is why I would be hesitant to seek a job selling cars, even though I know I could do well at it, given enough time to build a clientele and do it the right way.""

I hate to tell you this, but most (Key Word: MOST) buyers are whores. You can sell them a car, and then one to "Uncle Joe" and then one to Joe's kid and then on the next car, some dealer beats your price by $45.00 and they sell you down the river, never to be seen by you again!

Where you CAN (fairly easily) build very good clientele is with commercial interests. I averaged 50-70 sales a year to a large, well known, nationwide Drug company's Eastern Seaboard offices and complex. Another 3-5 Dodge Vans a year to a messenger service, another 1/2 dozen or so Taxis to one of the counties largest cab companies, and a bunch of assorted Dodge trucks to the area's largest utility company on BIDs. We had a connection with a local Chrysler-Plymouth dealer, from whom we got Imperials for a livery company, Oh, about 3 a year of those. Companies and corporations are hard to get in your corner, but once they are there, if you do right by them - they'll stay with you, more so that the public-at-large. Taxi & messenger service companies literally use up cars like cheap shoes, so they're always coming back to you.

I sold Schering-Plough Pharmaceutals and A&P food stores cars as well as small guys like "Bob's Hardware" ~ They were one tenth of the trouble that one guy (general public) who buys every 7 years was.

I would ONLY sell a car that has TRUCKS, like Chevy, Ford or Dodge. Dodge is the best, because owner loyality is the highest. The Chevy guy will try a Ford next time and the Ford guy will try a Chevy next time, but the Dodge guy is the most loyal to the brand, so while Ford & Chevy probably outsell Dodge, the buyers criss-cross back & forth, brand to brand, whereas the Dodge guy stays with Dodge, so building a commercial owner base is easier.

Ralph.....Pleeezzzse ....

the dealer is the front man (to quote you)

The damn dealer comes in 3 times a week in many places. Few, if any customers ever see the dealer.

The salesman is the front man!!!!!!!!
The Manager is the middle man!!!!!!!
and the dealer is out on the fairway trying for a hole in one !!!!



Sorry, I should explain our terminology a bit.

By "Dealer" I meant "Salesman" because in Saskatchewan they get special license plate stickers that have a "D" on them. So we usually call Salesmen Dealers, or Car Dealers. If we refer to the establishment we call them "Dealerships." Strange eh? Farmers get an "F" on their plates, I got a "PV" for private vehicle, and Construction trucks, etc get a "C" for Commercial, etc.

What was your quota for the week when you were a car "Salesmen?"

We did not have quotas. The only requirement was that if you spent more than 10 to 15 minutes with a customer, that before you discharged them, that you visit the salesmanager, and inform him of what had taken place between the two of you, and allow him to come into the discussion, if he felt he should. Some of those managers were like gold and really (or actually) made the deal happen then & there ! Others were like cancer, and you HATED bringing them into the conversation, because you knew when they got done, not only would the customer be totally ailenated, they'd never return to even buy a floor mat!

I averaged 16-17 deliveries a month, except in the dead months of December & January. The BEST months were September thru Thanksgiving, after which it dropped dead for 65 days. (Pay back time).

(The 16-17 were RETAIL and do not count commercial/fleet accounts, which averaged 6-8 a month).