: How many times do you fill the clutch resivoir till you need a clutch



spedaleden
03-20-09, 05:47 PM
Or do you just keep adding fluid when needed and wait till the motor starts slipping?

darkman
03-20-09, 05:56 PM
Or do you just keep adding fluid when needed and wait till the motor starts slipping?

I don't think it works that way on the clutch. I assume that you are basing the question on the fact that loss of brake fluid is an indicator of brake pad wear. In the case of brakes the lower fluid level results (potentially) in reduced braking force at the pad. In contrast, a reduction in clutch fluid decreases the capacity to disengage the clutch. As a practical matter the clutch hardware can be good to 60-80K miles if driven conservatively while the life of the clutch fluid is much shorter than that. You would expect to change out the clutch fluid several times over the 60-80k mile life cycle.

spedaleden
03-20-09, 06:10 PM
I don't think it works that way on the clutch. I assume that you are basing the question on the fact that loss of brake fluid is an indicator of brake pad wear. In the case of brakes the lower fluid level results (potentially) in reduced braking force at the pad. In contrast, a reduction in clutch fluid decreases the capacity to disengage the clutch. As a practical matter the clutch hardware can be good to 60-80K miles if driven conservatively while the life of the clutch fluid is much shorter than that. You would expect to change out the clutch fluid several times over the 60-80k mile life cycle.

Thanks

I was thinking that when fluid got to min on clutch resivor it was time for clutch. Where does that fluid go. Is it heat from the clutch that it burns up fluid?

MIGHTYMOUSE
03-20-09, 06:34 PM
if you are losing fluid then your master or slave cyl is leaking. it wont necessarily hurt the clutch at all, nor is an indication of clutch wear.

if your hydraulics aren't up to par it will eventually start grinding gears and you can damage your syncro's in the trans.

darkman
03-20-09, 06:35 PM
Thanks

I was thinking that when fluid got to min on clutch resivor it was time for clutch. Where does that fluid go. Is it heat from the clutch that it burns up fluid?

I do not know where the fulid goes. However, I did a search on "clutch" and located an old thread that I remembered - see post #22.


http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/153068-clutch-reservoir-low-fluid-level.html

atdeneve
03-21-09, 06:03 PM
Yeah, the reason for the repeated and inevitable loss of fluid was never actually pinpointed in that thread.

I know that a tech and I were kinda scratchin our heads about it a couple years back (it actually bothered him cuz he couldn't find any signs of an obvious leak anywhere and it just didn't make sense - good dude, he was). I was hoping that an answer might turn up in that thread, but it still remains a mystery.

One thing's fur shure. Even if we don't know why or where it goes, make a habit of, at least, swappin out the fluid in the little (excuse for a) reservoir, every now and then. Pretty quick and easy.

darkman
03-21-09, 06:54 PM
The amount fluid in the clutch system is quite small as compared with the brake system. It is not unlike the fluid capacities of modern motorcylcles with hydraulic clutches and brakes, but the motorcycle systems tend to have all metal master cylinders with o-ring lids that are held on by threaded metal fasteners (screws & bolts). The V clutch master cylinder, in contrast is had tightened plastic. But the mystery remains.

spedaleden
03-24-09, 03:37 PM
Thanks guys

Can anyone tell me where the bleeder is for the slave cylinder.

CadzillaTN
03-24-09, 10:14 PM
if you are losing fluid then your master or slave cyl is leaking.

I agree, but dealer swears no leaks



Thanks guys

Can anyone tell me where the bleeder is for the slave cylinder.
good question.


I had complete loss of fluid. bone dry.. the dealer said system had no leaks and wouldn't acknowledge that air could have even entered the line even though im convinced the clutch is not fiully dsiengaging. They couldn't find a shifting problem. BUT-, they'd be happy to bleed it for 125 bucks!. (note: I realize thats just the labor rate and not a ripoff)

I went to many places in town thinking I could get it done cheaper- no one wanted to touch it...I got all sorts of frustrating responses:
-"thats a stick shift? We aint touchin that" good
- "that valve is inside the bell housin. we gotta pull the tranny. its gonna be expensive. why do you want to do this anyway?" you dont say.
- "I aint got nothin to fit that." what?
- "your master or slave is leakin. you caint just lose fluid without a leak. we can price the new parts for you" yeah right, f you
- "what seems to be the problem? are you having issues? yeah, and the cadillac dealer couldn't find them but you can
- "we can sure try. itll probably be 100 bucks or so." sure. take a shot in the dark on my V...nope

no one could comprehend that I just wanted the f^&n clutch bled??. I now know that I must do it myself but I didnt want to. I haven't seen much info on the subject even after a detailed search

ctsv154
03-24-09, 10:43 PM
See the little hole with the stainless line is coming out at? That is the hole were the bleeder is normally.

http://i35.tinypic.com/jv29np.jpg

This is a pic with no bleeder and no spacer showing the alignment of the bleeder to the hole. The little short stub sticking out of the slave is just the adapter for the the extended bleeder. The original bleeder almost reaches the edge of the bell housing. Now just imagine this in the car. Its kind of hard to get to but its doable. I've done it. Thats why I bought the extended bleeder!

http://i35.tinypic.com/x5yttj.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2v1rfv8.jpg

darkman
03-24-09, 10:45 PM
Paraphrased from the Service Manual.(7-1485)

1. Fill the clutch fluid reservoir.
2. Stroke the clutch pedal from top to down position at least 15 times.
3. With the clutch pedal depressed, open the concentric slave cylinder bleeder valve to release trapped air. The bleeder valve is located on the bell housing.
4. Close the bleeder valve and slowly return the clutch pedal to the up stop.
5. Open the bleeder valve and slowly depress the clutch pedal from the top to fully depressed until the fluid escapes through the bleeder.
6. Close the bleeder valve.
7. Return the clutch pedal to the up position.
8. Depress the clutch pedal. (top to down)
9. Open the bleeder valve and allow air bubbles to escape.
10. Close the bleeder valve.
Keep checking the fluid reservoir and refill between steps.
11. Repeat steps 7-10 until the fluid without bubbles escapes through the bleeder valve.

CadiBlk
03-24-09, 10:49 PM
please poast your findings in here as I would like to freshin my clutch :)

CadiBlk
03-24-09, 10:49 PM
oh f@ck me, ty 154 and darkman.

CadzillaTN
03-24-09, 11:49 PM
oh f@ck me, ty 154 and darkman.

agreed. good stuff!...

154, is that hole on top of the transmission and if so which side of the car? also, does it stick out just far enough to attach the hose and get a wrench on? after looking at that pic it seems like you'd have to have a nicely offset wrench.
lastly, if I use jackstands where should I position myself under the car for the best leverage?


thanks

ctsv154
03-25-09, 12:02 AM
agreed. good stuff!...

154, is that hole on top of the transmission and if so which side of the car? also, does it stick out just far enough to attach the hose and get a wrench on? after looking at that pic it seems like you'd have to have a nicely offset wrench.
lastly, if I use jackstands where should I position myself under the car for the best leverage?


thanks

The hole is on divers side toward the top. I remember somebody saying they used a hose to bleed with but I was lazy and didnt use one :shhh:

If I were you, I would lay with my legs hanging out the passengers side of the car with your head facing the drivers side looking up into the small void by the trans. You should be able to see the black line for the slave coming out. The hole right under it is the bleeder. You cant physically see it but you can feel it. I used a standard offset wrench but it was difficult. Its been so long since I have bled with no extended bleeder I think I used the shortest wrench I could find and it was still a really tight fit. Only a couple flats at a time.

MIGHTYMOUSE
03-25-09, 06:08 PM
since it's losing fluid it is bleeding all on its own, so how bout just keep pouring it in until you are ready to replace the master or slave cyl.

spedaleden
03-26-09, 10:34 AM
See the little hole with the stainless line is coming out at? That is the hole were the bleeder is normally.

http://i35.tinypic.com/jv29np.jpg

This is a pic with no bleeder and no spacer showing the alignment of the bleeder to the hole. The little short stub sticking out of the slave is just the adapter for the the extended bleeder. The original bleeder almost reaches the edge of the bell housing. Now just imagine this in the car. Its kind of hard to get to but its doable. I've done it. Thats why I bought the extended bleeder!

http://i35.tinypic.com/x5yttj.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2v1rfv8.jpg

You the Man, Thank You very much!!!!! :thumbsup:

spedaleden
03-26-09, 10:35 AM
Paraphrased from the Service Manual.(7-1485)

1. Fill the clutch fluid reservoir.
2. Stroke the clutch pedal from top to down position at least 15 times.
3. With the clutch pedal depressed, open the concentric slave cylinder bleeder valve to release trapped air. The bleeder valve is located on the bell housing.
4. Close the bleeder valve and slowly return the clutch pedal to the up stop.
5. Open the bleeder valve and slowly depress the clutch pedal from the top to fully depressed until the fluid escapes through the bleeder.
6. Close the bleeder valve.
7. Return the clutch pedal to the up position.
8. Depress the clutch pedal. (top to down)
9. Open the bleeder valve and allow air bubbles to escape.
10. Close the bleeder valve.
Keep checking the fluid reservoir and refill between steps.
11. Repeat steps 7-10 until the fluid without bubbles escapes through the bleeder valve.


Thank You for the helpful information.

CadzillaTN
04-09-09, 10:52 PM
well guys I had my V on a lift today...full access to everything. I realized 2 things:

1. Bleeding the clutch isn't a PITA. Its near impossible for the weekend mechanic.
2. $125 to do this is a STEAL. I will have the dealership do this on the next visit.

ctsv154
04-09-09, 10:59 PM
yeah its a fun job. I love my extended bleeder! It comes out and goes across the top of the trans and then down on the passengers side were it is bled very easily!

darkman
04-09-09, 11:01 PM
well guys I had my V on a lift today...full access to everything. I realized 2 things:

1. Bleeding the clutch isn't a PITA. Its near impossible for the weekend mechanic.
2. $125 to do this is a STEAL. I will have the dealership do this on the next visit.

Agree.

MrAceman
06-11-09, 09:39 PM
Fantastic steps and pics. Took me less than an hour to do this and replaced about 2-3 oz of black sludge with Motul 600.

Longer 3/16th I.D. hose from Home Depot helped direct the old fluid out to a empty water bottle on the ground.

Bleed screw size is 5/16th. Or at least that's what I used and it worked... couldn't see if it was a snug fit.

Clutch fluid reservoir can ONLY take 2 pumps before needing to be topped off.

I ended up doing about 10-12 pumps / 5-6 reservoir fills until I was happy. The final 4 pumps/2 fills was probably overkill since the fluid was clear by that point.

Also, I'd like to thank my wife for doing most of the work.

Her: Press pedal, PULL dead pedal back up slowly, get out of car every 2nd pump and refill reservoir.

Me: Lay on back and turn a screw. :thumbsup:

CadzillaTN
06-12-09, 01:20 AM
Fantastic steps and pics. Took me less than an hour to do this and replaced about 2-3 oz of black sludge with Motul 600.

Longer 3/16th I.D. hose from Home Depot helped direct the old fluid out to a empty water bottle on the ground.

Bleed screw size is 5/16th. Or at least that's what I used and it worked... couldn't see if it was a snug fit.

Clutch fluid reservoir can ONLY take 2 pumps before needing to be topped off.

I ended up doing about 10-12 pumps / 5-6 reservoir fills until I was happy. The final 4 pumps/2 fills was probably overkill since the fluid was clear by that point.

Also, I'd like to thank my wife for doing most of the work.

Her: Press pedal, PULL dead pedal back up slowly, get out of car every 2nd pump and refill reservoir.

Me: Lay on back and turn a screw. :thumbsup:

any improvement? :food-snacking:

SuperVeee
06-12-09, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by darkman
Paraphrased from the Service Manual.(7-1485)

1. Fill the clutch fluid reservoir.
2. Stroke the clutch pedal from top to down position at least 15 times.
3. With the clutch pedal depressed, open the concentric slave cylinder bleeder valve to release trapped air. The bleeder valve is located on the bell housing.
4. Close the bleeder valve and slowly return the clutch pedal to the up stop.
5. Open the bleeder valve and slowly depress the clutch pedal from the top to fully depressed until the fluid escapes through the bleeder.
6. Close the bleeder valve.
7. Return the clutch pedal to the up position.
8. Depress the clutch pedal. (top to down)
9. Open the bleeder valve and allow air bubbles to escape.
10. Close the bleeder valve.
Keep checking the fluid reservoir and refill between steps.
11. Repeat steps 7-10 until the fluid without bubbles escapes through the bleeder valve.



So you can't shorten that long bleed procedure by using a vacuum bleeder like we use for bleeding the brakes?

Not that my wife wouldn't help me - I just figure why make it a 2 person job if you don't have to.

atdeneve
06-12-09, 10:40 AM
If all you're doing is a flush, a vaccum bleeder should work fine.

However, if you need to remove trapped air bubbles (for any system; clutch or brakes), I'd only go the two person route, to ensure that the sudden pressure to the system, from the depressed pedal, mobilizes any clinging air bubbles.

lollygagger8
06-12-09, 11:02 AM
The fluid goes to the same place that all the socks go when the dryer eats em.

That little hole looks like a major PITA to get to. Thanks for the pics at least bro!

NormV
06-12-09, 01:14 PM
I used a shovel to hold the clutch during bleeding and an 8mm wrench box wrench. Work great and it was black coming out!


Norm


Fantastic steps and pics. Took me less than an hour to do this and replaced about 2-3 oz of black sludge with Motul 600.

Longer 3/16th I.D. hose from Home Depot helped direct the old fluid out to a empty water bottle on the ground.

Bleed screw size is 5/16th. Or at least that's what I used and it worked... couldn't see if it was a snug fit.

Clutch fluid reservoir can ONLY take 2 pumps before needing to be topped off.

I ended up doing about 10-12 pumps / 5-6 reservoir fills until I was happy. The final 4 pumps/2 fills was probably overkill since the fluid was clear by that point.

Also, I'd like to thank my wife for doing most of the work.

Her: Press pedal, PULL dead pedal back up slowly, get out of car every 2nd pump and refill reservoir.

Me: Lay on back and turn a screw. :thumbsup:

lollygagger8
06-12-09, 02:11 PM
I used a shovel to hold the clutch during bleeding and an 8mm wrench box wrench. Work great and it was black coming out!


Norm

Did it grab/drive/seem alot better after you bled it?

MrAceman
06-14-09, 09:30 PM
The pedal feel was better right until the point the bleeder screw backed out and dumped my entire clutch fluid right before turn 7 at Road Atlanta yesterday (HPDE). Woohoo! :highfive:

Had to get towed the mile back to the paddocks and figure out what was up. Once I figured out the problem (bleeder screw) I was able to resolve it and go back out for my last session.

This morning before my first session I double-checked that the screw was tight and good for the day. My aforementioned wife with tiny hands asks "Do you want me to check if it's tight?"

Me: "Sure, why not?"

She was able to tighten it over one full turn still. I simply couldn't get my hands up there and in a position to do it. I thought I had it tightened down just fine.

That bleeder screw is, hands down, in the worst spot possible.

Moral of the story is this:

Either 1) Pay the dealer or 2) Get your wife/girlfriend/SO (assuming their hands are small enough)... or one of your kids ;) to tighten the bleeder screw when your are done.

MrAceman
06-24-09, 01:03 AM
To anyone with an extended bleeder... where might I happen to purchase such an amazing and time saving device??

Ak Jim
06-24-09, 03:29 AM
To anyone with an extended bleeder... where might I happen to purchase such an amazing and time saving device??

Yah that, and can you install it with the transmission in the car?

atdeneve
06-24-09, 06:58 AM
Several people have used LAPD's.

Looks like Monster Clutch also has one, but haven't heard any one comment on them.

Probably many other choices - I'd assume most any bleeder for a Tremec vehicle would suffice.

lollygagger8
06-24-09, 10:14 AM
How much are the LAPD's, how hard to install, and how much?

If I'm going to have my trans out when I do a clutch, seems like the perfect time to install one

atdeneve
06-24-09, 11:16 AM
The LAPD C6 remote clutch bleeder used to be ~50 dollars. It's currently listed at ~80 dollars.
• http://www.thelapd.com/profile.asp?ID=352&Name=LAPD+C6+Clutch+Bleeder+Kit&CategoryID=161
You may want to call them...

LPP has a kit for the LS1 (~75 dollars):
• http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/new-products-showcase/708701-remote-clutch-bleeder-new-tech-sponsor.html
• http://lpparts.com/store/page4.html

Monster Clutches' LS remote bleeder line (~50 dollars):
• http://www.monsterclutches.com/miscparts.html

You can check with East Coast Performance and Corvette. They have a kit for the C5 (~60 dollars):
• http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-z06-discussion/2286463-new-c5-clutch-bleeder-kits-59-95-a.html

Or you can try making your own:
• http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154937

The LAPD remote clutch bleeder has been used on the V, but I don't know whether or not the others will have the proper fittings. Give 'em a call to check first. I'm sure there are many more options out there.

lollygagger8
06-24-09, 11:53 AM
Thank You Sir!!!! :worship:

So...all it is, is a longer braided line with the correct fittings..right? (excuse my ignorance)

So where do you mount the end of the hose? Just anywhere on the firewall?
Does anyone have these speed bleeders installed? Pics?

MrAceman
06-24-09, 06:08 PM
Yah that, and can you install it with the transmission in the car?

That's the clincher...

My guess is that you can but as tough as it is to simply bleed the clutch you can bet it's not an easy install.

I might have to pull my driver's side header off later this month to do my oil cooler install. That would at least make it a little easier since it'll give me some room to work.

Thanks for all the links as well. I think I'll go with the LAPD C6 Clutch Bleeder Kit since it's been used successfully before. If I manage to get it installed with the tranny in place I'll let you guys know.

ewill3rd
06-25-09, 07:54 AM
I see a lot of these cars. Please don't ask me where the clutch fluid goes, I don't know.
I have searched high and low on a pretty simple system for leaks, none.
The fluid in these things turns really dark and can even gel up if left unattended. I never considered even looking at them until one day we started. At first I was pretty nervous but now it is kind of the norm and we check them regularly. If the fluid is low or black, gone, or full of gel type stuff I let my customers know. I think we usually charge about $50 plus shop supplies (for the fluid) to clean it out and flush it.
A simple flush and bleed on these usually fixes most issues that have to do with the clutch.

I use a piece of hose to keep the fluid from all running into the bell housing but you can do it without the hose. It is tight in there, you can use an 8mm or a 5/16" to open the bleeder but make sure you haven't been driving it.

My personal theory is that from use and heat the fluid breaks down and a good portion of it evaporates somehow. I am not much of a scientist but like I said, I have yet to find more than one of these leaking. ( I think I did find one)

maxpenmatt
06-25-09, 10:10 AM
What kind of threads are in the slave cylinder bleeder hole?

ctsv154 that looks like a 1/4"NPT to 1/4" JIC connecter fitting you have installed in your slave, can you verify this or did it just come with a kit?

I work with hydraulics all day and am going to attempt to just remove the stock bleeder insert a ?male? to JIC connecter into the slave and then attach a 1/4" braided stainless line with a JIC to ?female? fitting on the other end to the slave cylinder. I could then install the stock bleeder into that but be able to put it in a more accessible location. Right?

Can anyone with knowledge of Parker (or any brand really) hydraulic fittings chime in?

lollygagger8
06-26-09, 11:19 AM
So can you use regular old DOT4 for the clutch fluid (if it's DOT 3 compliant) ???

Also, where are you guys getting the Modul stuff?

Twitch
06-26-09, 02:33 PM
If you dont want to mess with the bleeder screw, there's a much easier way to maintain the fluid.
I think I got this from Darkman:
When my fluid gets dark/low, I get a small bottle of break fluid. Pull out the old fluid with a cooking seringe, and put new stuff in. Cover it, and pump the clutch pedal 30 times, repeat till it stays clear. I usually drive around, and do this for a couple days. Keeps the fluid clear for a few months. And I have never had any clutch issues.

lollygagger8
06-26-09, 05:06 PM
If you dont want to mess with the bleeder screw, there's a much easier way to maintain the fluid.
I think I got this from Darkman:
When my fluid gets dark/low, I get a small bottle of break fluid. Pull out the old fluid with a cooking seringe, and put new stuff in. Cover it, and pump the clutch pedal 30 times, repeat till it stays clear. I usually drive around, and do this for a couple days. Keeps the fluid clear for a few months. And I have never had any clutch issues.

I've been doing that, but I don't think it gets all the black sludge out of there

ewill3rd
06-26-09, 11:50 PM
That will not get all the fluid out but it is better than nothing.
Lots of guys like the DOT 4 fluid, it is fine.

The right hose and wrench will make it easy.