: 98 deville no fan / tech 2 commanded fan on



brianroark
03-16-09, 08:53 PM
98 deville here just did a coolant flush, it was running at about 196 from previous owner which is family but i wanted to get all the old stuff out. just bought the car, water pump was replaced about 4k miles ago not sure about thermostat but would think so. the car had a slight misfire and i fixed it today but.


as i was sitting in the driveway idling i was playing with my tech 2 and looked up and to my surprise the coolant temp was at 217 and no radiator fan was on.

I immediately shut the motor off, i then went into a commanded state on all relays for the fans both fans turned on, so i re-started the motor at 217 and it began to drop all the way to 190 with the fans on.

I then shut the tech 2 off and watched the temp rise to 205 without the fan turning on so i shut her down and came on here.

What temperatures trigger the low fan controls and high? high only for hvac?

I commanded the low fan and the drivers side fan turned on, hi speed fan and the passengers fan turned on, all relay (both fans) both turned on. im taking it that the problem is the coolant temp sensor or coolant fan switch something like that but which one. i have a good ect reading on the tech 2 in engine data and in car.

everyone's help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

brianroark
03-16-09, 09:02 PM
i just read low fan doesnt kick until 225, is this right? i almost had a heart attack seeing it at 217.

vehicle is:

1998 Deville 4.6 LD8 VIN Y

Submariner409
03-16-09, 09:45 PM
Fans go to low at 225 or any A/C function that runs the compressor. High at 236 or transmission temp of 305.

The thermostat is set to begin at 188 and fully open at 206, so the car should run, on the road, at 198 or so.

It is perfectly normal for the temp to float up to 224 in traffic or in slow driving (without A/C) on a summer day. With a/c on (fans to slow automatically) the temp will stay at around 198 - 210 all day in town.

Your car uses an 18# pressure cap on the surge tank, so at that pressure a 50/50 mix of DEXCOOL boils at 265.

AJxtcman
03-16-09, 10:26 PM
98 deville here just did a coolant flush, it was running at about 196 from previous owner which is family but i wanted to get all the old stuff out. just bought the car, water pump was replaced about 4k miles ago not sure about thermostat but would think so. the car had a slight misfire and i fixed it today but.


as i was sitting in the driveway idling i was playing with my tech 2 and looked up and to my surprise the coolant temp was at 217 and no radiator fan was on.

I immediately shut the motor off, i then went into a commanded state on all relays for the fans both fans turned on, so i re-started the motor at 217 and it began to drop all the way to 190 with the fans on.

I then shut the tech 2 off and watched the temp rise to 205 without the fan turning on so i shut her down and came on here.

What temperatures trigger the low fan controls and high? high only for hvac?

I commanded the low fan and the drivers side fan turned on, hi speed fan and the passengers fan turned on, all relay (both fans) both turned on. im taking it that the problem is the coolant temp sensor or coolant fan switch something like that but which one. i have a good ect reading on the tech 2 in engine data and in car.

everyone's help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

Give me that Tech II before you scare your self any more.

Hey I will call you and Yes 225 is the norm

Ranger
03-16-09, 11:21 PM
And BTW, 205-215 is normal operating temperature so don't panick when you see those temps.

brianroark
03-18-09, 04:39 PM
okay, i know this is normal operating temp, but im still kind of worried, i drove the car around some yesterday and did a wot to clean the rings before pulling in a friends driveway, i took a trail of antifreeze and a puddle under the car, i then found out it was coming out of the resivor, then i almost shit my pants. good thing i was a friends house that had a block tester, i testing the coolant and it had no carbon in it, the liquid stayed the same color andidnt turn yellow meaning the gasket should be good and nothing wrong there. i replaced the radiator cap and havent really seem much leakage yet. so today i did some easy driving around town about 1/16 throttle at most. i pulled into my job, temp was reading about 209 with outside temps of 55 degrees farinheit and easy driving not much stopping or idling. ive noticed after i shut the car down the coolant will raise about 10 degrees after sitting for acouple of minutes, is this a problem or jsut because the coolant isnt flowing, it read 217 after i shut the car down and turned it back on to check temps.


am i just paranoid?

Ranger
03-18-09, 05:23 PM
That's normal. It's called after boil. Cylinders are still hot, but the cooling system is shut down, thus no coolant flow around the cylinders.

Submariner409
03-18-09, 07:19 PM
brianroark, If your coolant is above halfway up in the surge tank, COLD, it's no wonder you left a trail of coolant after a hard run. That system expands one heck of a lot - the airspace in the tank, COLD, is what allows the coolant to expand and pressurize the system to 16 - 18 psi, raising the boiling point of the coolant to 265 degrees. If the coolant has nowhere to expand, it's coming out, either through the cap pressure relief or out a blown hose. No way around it.

As Ranger said, coolant temp rise on shutdown is normal. Mechanical gauges will show it in any car. Electrics won't (unless the key is on) because today's modern driver goes paranoid when a gauge moves. Matter of fact, these electric fan cooled cars allow the fan(s) to run even if the key is off - in case you need a shot of extra cooling after shutdown (there IS some convective flow.....). That's why the manual and radiator cover stickers have a CAUTION ! warning about fans..............

STSj90
03-18-09, 09:11 PM
I have a question, I have a ball tester. It shows the boiling point of the coolant for the way its mixed. I just drained the coolant in my car. And refilled it. Now Every time the coolant temp gets around 225 coolant will piss out of the overflow. No other time will it do this. Only when it gets to around that temp.

So i tested the coolant with a ball tester. It says the boiling point of my coolant is 222'F. Is that why its pissing it out at these temps? No, the HG is not blown(tested) And the car runs extremly cool. Its only when it gets to around a curtain temp that it wants to piss. Once its cooled down from that temp. It doesnt do it. I can WOT all day and it just wont do it..So, Anybody have any ideas as to whats up? Is it the way my coolant is mixed?

Maybe i have a small leak somwhere?

Ranger
03-18-09, 09:19 PM
Those testers are not very good, but they usually test freeze point not boiling. Boiling point is achieved by putting the coolant under pressure. That's why you have a 16-18 lb. cap on it. THAT raises it to 265.

AJxtcman
03-18-09, 09:38 PM
Brian called me today. I was having a bad day. My dad is in ICU, Jodie want me down by her, and I have some headache cars. Anyway Brian took my mind off of them for a few minutes and we found out the issue. He had topped off the coolant to the top. Like an old radiator.
I have know Brian for over 8 years and his older brother for about 11 years. They are kind of almost family. Next door neighbor girl married Brian's brother. ;)

Good luck Brian and let me know on the other thing.

Ranger
03-18-09, 09:43 PM
He had topped off the coolant to the top.
That'll do it.

Submariner409
03-18-09, 09:43 PM
How full is your coolant surge tank ? 220 is the boil point of coolant, at a 50/50 mix, not under pressure !!!!!!! That tester figure means absolutely nothing. Nothing.

As Ranger posted, it's the pressure cap which raises the boil point to 265.

Pressure is everything: in outer space vacuum, water boils at just over 32 degrees F. On earth, with an atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi, water boils at 212. Raise the pressure, the boiling point goes up. (We calculate pressures as "above atmospheric", so 18 psi is actually 32.7 psi absolute.)

EDIT>>>> How's that for deja vu ?? Good ol' AJ. "He had topped off the surge tank..." Every time, it's an overfilled surge tank. NOBODY reads the owner's manual or service manuals any more. NOBODY reads anything in here. It's all shotgun seat of the pants. Why bother........

Ranger
03-18-09, 10:04 PM
:histeric: Hehe. Easy Sub, easy. Time for a cocktail........ or two.

STSj90
03-18-09, 10:41 PM
(if subs post was directed to me)>>>> How full is my surge tank? Its what its suposed to be.. Around half way up. Not even half way up. Ive did the coolant drain and refill before. (acually 2 times before this) And its been posted on here many MANY TIMES, to fill it half way up the surge tank. Acually, i beleive ive been told on here (by sub) before to make sure i fill it to around half way up the surge tank. Ive read lots of posts on here. Moslty posts by you sub(and ranger). And thats how i know half the crap i know about the N* powered caddy's. I just wanted to know why my coolant was pissing out. I gave a good bit of info.

I guess my question is, What could cause coolant to piss out of the overflow? Other than, HG's and overfilling... And why does it do it at around the same temp everytime? I guess my cap sucks ass? Its new. But it is a 16 pound cap. Is that why it does it? Do i need an 18 pound cap? And you may ask why i drained my coolant so many times so soon. Because ive just replaced my lower RAD hose. And before that it was another hose. We all know that changing the coolant is a good thing anyway...:thumbsup:

Ranger
03-18-09, 10:52 PM
Other than a HG failure or and overfill, a bad or improperly installed cap is about the only other thing that will cause it to overflow. An 18 lb. cap won't make any difference. Are you sure it is on correctly (tight and to the second detent)?

brianroark
03-18-09, 11:04 PM
Yeah, I think I am psyching myself out, these high temps, leaking coolant and northstars hg failure rate, I guess its like anything else, we all see the failed gaskets on here and you mechanics see them at the shop but i'm sure there are many that make it to 200k with no hg problem. I'm always looking for problems that arn't there. The coolant is down to that black fin about a inch down now and still leaking a little, I probably should of siphoned it out like AJ said but i'll let it leak to a topped off level. driveway is full of chemicals from years of repairs and pos vehicles.

any ways, Was at AJ's the other day he showed me some of his pcm programming stuff WOW. I've modded ipods, phones, installed linux gaming consoles, run my own personal domain with Linux platform but the stuff he is dabbling in is just genius. Did you ever get a IQ test AJ?

Oh yeah, I'm at a 70 / 30 mix, I've been seeing 50/50 for everyone else and I probably dont need it that strong but I go to the north woods of Wisconsin often snowmobiling and it gets pretty damn cold up there. I dunno, do you guys think I should drain some out and gauge it to about -40 with my cheap prestone tester? Also, the barsleak tab package said 2 tabs every gallon my math figured to be about 5 for a 10 quart system but I read someones post and they said that's overkill and 3 should be enough, I'm always over analyising everything figuring, stop leak or condition seal system, I came up with 4, then again maybe that too many tabs.

Btw, AJ, I just picked up "SPX TECH 2 FLASH CABLE ADAPTER" but only have a chrysler cable with it and have no idea on how or what to use it with. You will have to enlighten me with some knowledge.


AJ, Sorry to hear about your dad, hope he is doing ok, you sound stressed, are those mikes drinks yours? I'll have to buy you a case. hehe.

Submariner409
03-18-09, 11:07 PM
Rant over. :lildevil:

Earlier Northstars had a 16# cap. Later, maybe around 98 - 00, they went to 18#

Basically there are only four things that will cause an overflow:

Obviously, overfilling = expansion blowoff.
A bad pressure cap, allowing the coolant to boil at 222 degrees.
Or a crack in the surge tank itself.
Some engine fault which allows excess pressure/temperature to enter the cooling system, overriding the pressure cap seal ability.

Brian, 70/30 is perfectly OK and is allowed by the GM Factory Service Manual as being the highest ratio recommended. That, with an 18# cap, raises the boil point to 276 degrees.

Ranger
03-18-09, 11:16 PM
It gets pretty cold down here at times and I get up to Northern Wisc. to snowmobile regularly as well. NEVER had a problem with a 50/50 mix FWIW. 4 tabs are fine.

Ranger
03-18-09, 11:22 PM
OK, I'll bite. How in the hell do you mod an Ipod?

Submariner409
03-18-09, 11:28 PM
X-pipe and gut the cat. Suede headliner. LED lights.

brianroark
03-18-09, 11:59 PM
off topic, I just bought the car 3 days ago from my dad, he is stubborn and nothing was wrong with the car!!! yeah right.

I heard a little miss but it wasn't too bad. so I went to do the coolant flush like 3 times because he mixed in the green silicate in an empty Dex system and drove it for 3 months.

I flushed it emptied it, ran the flush cleaner stuff in it, emptied it, water again, then used the universal antifreeze. nothing clogged.


I must of made the tear in the wire worse because the miss got worse. any how i think my dad had plug wires 6 and 8 switched around in addition.

They are next to each other but i have a hard time believing the engine would balance and run and sound half decent. He swears up and down that i'm out of my mind and i believe it was like this i could be wrong maybe it was my error and i put them back on the way they were but before pulling any plug wires the tech 2 said cylinders 6 and 8 were misfiring 6 was across the graph and 8 was about a 1/4 of what 6 was showing, I elec taped the one wire switch the wires to where they were suppose to be left the other wire and get no misfire now.

My plugs came in the same day so I took his champions out and replaced them with the stock ac delc 9XX platinum like everyone suggested, they looked dark brown around the bottom of the porcelain like the car was running hot?? The bottom metal prong is white like it was running lean. could it be the 6 cyclinder compensation, other problems or completely normal?

one main thing that im looking at is it seems to not be running 100% up to par but with WOT the thing goes like a raped ape.

last night we did an injecton cleaning, cut the fuel pump, hooked it up to the schrader valve used a solution of 50/50 seafoam and gas with the cleaner kit. pumped it in until the car killed left it sit for 15 minutes and restarted, is this the correct way to do a fuel injection system cleaning? i was going to get the gm fuel cleaning stuff but the guy said sea foam works just as good as cleaning solution if not better..

I haven't gotten to putting new plug wires and cleaning the throttle body out yet. I want this motor and trans running tip top, im averaging 15 city and highway, could be my lead foot i dunno but i use the car for work everyday and I drive for my job half of the day. I am going to be dropping the trans pan, changing filter and adding new fluid in compensation for drained fluid, i heard do not get a tranny flush so i am not. maybe ill do this two times to get clean fluid without someone elses dirty debris or will this still move stuff around by my seals also?

Like i was talking about before is it possible for it to run semi-smooth with 6 and 8 switched good plug wires if-so are there any possible dangers, problems or things i should check for since i'm pretty sure it was like that for 6 - 12 months.

Im rambling and half of my post probably make no sense at all, im speaking like a hyper kid on candy but the power issue seems to be 0 - 75% throttle, it seems like i get 0 - 40 percent of the engines performance from 0 - 75 % throttle but at wot the thing gives me the northstar jollies. Well let me reiterate that at 1/4 throttle it seems pretty good but 25 - 75 seem doggish. This may be normal for this car? So if you guys could try to follow me somewhat and give me input I would greatly appreciate it. I have some of the best north star techs working on my motor right here!!!

thanks for listening to me. haha :)

Brian

Ranger
03-19-09, 12:43 AM
Like i was talking about before is it possible for it to run semi-smooth with 6 and 8 switched good plug wires if-so are there any possible dangers, problems or things i should check for since i'm pretty sure it was like that for 6 - 12 months.
Yes I believe it is. I seem to recall someone doing this very thing not too long ago. Remember, that engine has a waste spark ignition so it is firing at both TDC & BDC. Thus it has a lot better chance of running "semi-smooth" (2 cylinders slightly out of time) than a regular system. Sub has posted the firing order and wiring diagram many times. Find it in one of his posts and be sure that your wires are according to that diagram.

brianroark
03-19-09, 01:28 AM
done already, printed it with alldata, appreciate the response though.

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