: Difference between early & late differentials



soundexp
03-07-09, 10:17 AM
As an owner of an 06' V I see occasionally that under the list of mods and upgrades to 04' & 05' V's that they have an 06' differential. The wheelhop issue notwithstanding (I definitely still have wheelhop) is the 06' diiferential any less prone to breaking than the earlier versions and if so, what is the difference?

__________________________________________________ ____________
06' Black on Black CTS-V / Lingenfelter CAI / Katech shifter w/UUC bushings / w4m PCM / Hotchkiss sways / GM Performance drilled rotors / SS brake lines / Hawk pads F&R / Billet door lifts / Michelin PS 275/40/18 rears

CadiBlk
03-07-09, 12:32 PM
All I know about the different models is that the 06-07's have wider fins. The wheel hop is still the same, I don't think that anyone has said that it helps with wheelhop, I just think that it helps with diff explosions.

darkman
03-07-09, 12:45 PM
As an owner of an 06' V I see occasionally that under the list of mods and upgrades to 04' & 05' V's that they have an 06' differential. The wheelhop issue notwithstanding (I definitely still have wheelhop) is the 06' diiferential any less prone to breaking than the earlier versions and if so, what is the difference?

__________________________________________________ ____________
06' Black on Black CTS-V / Lingenfelter CAI / Katech shifter w/UUC bushings / w4m PCM / Hotchkiss sways / GM Performance drilled rotors / SS brake lines / Hawk pads F&R / Billet door lifts / Michelin PS 275/40/18 rears

As far as I know, there have been no reports on this forum of 06' (and later) differentials "granading", that is the case breaking into pieces. The later model differentials still have the potential to become noisey over time to the point that they require replacement.

814V
03-07-09, 01:26 PM
one good thing the guys with truck motors did do for us is a better diff!

Cowan480
03-07-09, 07:47 PM
I wonder if I have the 06 diff?? I might need to run my VIN to see. I have the 05 with all of my mods and I am not having any issues with my diff.. however I am very quick to let off the gas when she starts to get lose...

thebigjimsho
03-07-09, 11:34 PM
one good thing the guys with truck motors did do for us is a better diff!
those guys should be thanking us for those diffs...

CTSV_510
03-07-09, 11:43 PM
might as well post the pics...

new style top, old style bottom

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj202/Civardi/04-05rear-06-07rear.jpg

.

new style:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/ewill3rd/PICT5638.jpg

old style:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/ewill3rd/PICT5637.jpg

thebigjimsho
03-08-09, 12:08 AM
nice...

ewill3rd
03-08-09, 11:19 AM
The nose piece is the main difference.
That one with the front seal you can't see is what I call an '08 style.
Those were released right at the beginning of '08 and that is what you get when you order a new one.
The other design looks the same all the way back to start of production, but you can't get that style new anymore.
(I took two of those pictures and I'm glad someone found them and posted them here)

thebigjimsho
03-08-09, 12:10 PM
copyright infringement!

T.G.
03-08-09, 04:19 PM
I got a new style one put in my V last month. Thanks GMPP

CTSV_510
03-08-09, 05:56 PM
The nose piece is the main difference.
That one with the front seal you can't see is what I call an '08 style.
Those were released right at the beginning of '08 and that is what you get when you order a new one.
The other design looks the same all the way back to start of production, but you can't get that style new anymore.
(I took two of those pictures and I'm glad someone found them and posted them here)


copyright infringement!

:hide:

Please give credit for last two supplied pictures to Bill @ Lindsay Cadillac...

Thanks Bill!

thebigjimsho
03-08-09, 07:12 PM
Bill is da man.

MauiV
03-08-09, 07:24 PM
I have a local speed shop researching a Cobra 8.8 diff install for me. Im still waiting to hear back with a price and time estimate. They do a lot of Mustang, GN, FBody and Vette stuff but nothing more than basic stuff on a V.

They said a M3 or M5 diff may also work but they are also aluminum so Im leery of that.

Once they put my car on the lift both guys were suprised at how small the half shafts are especially with the stock power.

If I do this late in the summer I will also have them upgrade my trans with Viper forks etc etc etc.

atdeneve
03-08-09, 07:34 PM
Ill Will.

atdeneve
03-08-09, 07:35 PM
I have a local speed shop researching a Cobra 8.8 diff install for me. Im still waiting to hear back with a price and time estimate. They do a lot of Mustang, GN, FBody and Vette stuff but nothing more than basic stuff on a V.

They said a M3 or M5 diff may also work but they are also aluminum so Im leery of that.

Once they put my car on the lift both guys were suprised at how small the half shafts are especially with the stock power.

If I do this late in the summer I will also have them upgrade my trans with Viper forks etc etc etc.

Yayuh!

MauiV
03-08-09, 07:38 PM
Yayuh!

Dont get all excited yet, Im not installing a park bench too

atdeneve
03-08-09, 07:43 PM
Aw, shucks!

thebigjimsho
03-08-09, 07:59 PM
this thread is sinking fast...

ewill3rd
03-08-09, 08:36 PM
:lol:, it's okay if I put pics on here you guys copy them to your hearts content.
I'm not offended.

thebigjimsho
03-08-09, 08:41 PM
you are a generous man...

ccextra1976
03-08-09, 09:59 PM
:lol:, it's okay if I put pics on here you guys copy them to your hearts content.
I'm not offended.

speaking of diff's I still wish someone would put a quality set of ring/pinion gears in a new style diff and see if it gets rid of the whine forever :bouncy:

soundexp
03-09-09, 11:00 AM
So, if I were to sum this up then the 06' differential is stronger than the earlier 04' & 05" models but that there is an even more improved version out there now. And...although the 06' differential is somewhat stronger is is still susceptible to all the other maladies (wheelhop, clunk, cradle bushings, etc.). Have any of you guys out there grenaded an 06' differential? Anyway thanks a lot for all the replies and info. Awesome Forum!

lollygagger8
03-09-09, 11:20 AM
I grenaded my '04 model into pieces with wheel hop (that didn't start until like 4k then by the time I let off...KABOOM)

'06 models still hop, but I've had no grenadation yet (crossing fingers) and will be installing the Kars Kit when it gets warm enough to lay on my back outside. Fun Fun.

thebigjimsho
03-09-09, 09:26 PM
with the old cases, they would shatter usually starting at the neck.

ewill3rd
03-10-09, 06:43 AM
I have seen pics of a few of the original ones that the case shattered just behind the pinion housing.
I don't think I have had to replace what I call the '08 style diff after I put one in.

lollygagger8
03-10-09, 10:55 AM
Or all the way across the top.......

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q16/n2havnfun2/diff3.jpg

'04 diff at it's finest

thebigjimsho
03-10-09, 12:39 PM
porcelain

lollygagger8
03-10-09, 01:34 PM
Exactly.

Note the pinion gears unscathed

thebigjimsho
03-10-09, 01:38 PM
he tipped it!

lollygagger8
03-10-09, 02:27 PM
Obivously tipping 15% is not enough then :lol:

thebigjimsho
03-10-09, 03:31 PM
I always tip 40-50%...

lollygagger8
03-10-09, 03:53 PM
I always tip 40-50%...


Dayum man!!! You must be hard on em then :lol:

thebigjimsho
03-10-09, 03:56 PM
Nah. you recognize stuff like that when working in the service industry...























wait, wut?

lollygagger8
03-10-09, 04:10 PM
Wait...wut? Wut happened, I blacked out :lol:

thebigjimsho
03-10-09, 04:20 PM
:shhh:

ccextra1976
03-10-09, 08:58 PM
speaking of diff's I still wish someone would put a quality set of ring/pinion gears in a new style diff and see if it gets rid of the whine forever :bouncy:

bump....has anyone ever installed a new set of ring/pinion into a diff yet

darkman
03-10-09, 10:32 PM
bump....has anyone ever installed a new set of ring/pinion into a diff yet

See Post #16 in this thread:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/159174-differential-cases.html

This is the only report I recall seeing on this forum of an attempt to quiet a differential with a new gear set - it may have been one of the older units though.

ccextra1976
03-10-09, 11:02 PM
See Post #16 in this thread:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/159174-differential-cases.html

This is the only report I recall seeing on this forum of an attempt to quiet a differential with a new gear set - it may have been one of the older units though.

thanks I brought that thread back

ewill3rd
03-11-09, 06:46 AM
We never rebuild them we just replace the whole unit.
Not worth the effort if you ask me. My pet theory is that the noise is generated by deflection of the case structure which causes ring and pinion alignment issues.
I have never tested it but....
Obviously if the case is twisting, it won't do any good to install a ring and pinion because you won't be able to set the new gears up either.
Easier just to plunk a new case in, fill it, and roll.

darkman
03-11-09, 08:53 AM
We never rebuild them we just replace the whole unit.
Not worth the effort if you ask me. My pet theory is that the noise is generated by deflection of the case structure which causes ring and pinion alignment issues.
I have never tested it but....
Obviously if the case is twisting, it won't do any good to install a ring and pinion because you won't be able to set the new gears up either.
Easier just to plunk a new case in, fill it, and roll.

I do not disagree that from an economic stand point it is better just to install a whole new unit. But, I wish someone would measure one of the cases to see if case distortion is indeed the problem.

Slithering_Joe
03-11-09, 09:42 AM
I'd love to install a Ford 8.8 and be done with listening to & worring about this frigg'n rear and enjoy the fugg'n car.

lollygagger8
03-11-09, 10:19 AM
Or get the bada$$ case from Nutz

JimmyH
08-14-09, 07:27 PM
Sorry for bumping an old thread, and I hope I don't ruffle any feathers by reposting these (please let me know if I do)

But since the pictures in post #7 are so valuable, and since photobucket pictures can sometimes get lost or "unhosted" or bandwidth exceeded, I thought it would be good to attach them directly to this thread, just in case.

darkman
08-14-09, 07:31 PM
Sorry for bumping an old thread, and I hope I don't ruffle any feathers by reposting these (please let me know if I do)

But since the pictures in post #7 are so valuable, and since photobucket pictures can sometimes get lost or "unhosted" or bandwidth exceeded, I thought it would be good to attach them directly to this thread, just in case.

Good intentions nothwithstanding, for bumping an old thread you get 1 demerit.

jpoole
08-14-09, 08:30 PM
Thanks JimmyH for taking the 1 demerit hit as it brings up a question from me. :)

I just got my rear diff replace (3rd gen or 2008 diff) under warranty with 3000 miles and 7 days left on my 05 warranty. hehe

I also had the hendrix (bad ass) axles installed with it.

I never had any diff problems with the original, but is the consensus that the problems with noise etc are directly related to the hop and twisting? Also, are their more noise issues with the 2nd or 3rd gen diffs? I am pretty sure the destruction was a direct result of all the hop, but I am hopeing that with the Hendrix alxes, I am good to go for the foreseeable future, if I spelled foreseeable right :)

Any comments?

darkman
08-14-09, 08:52 PM
Thanks JimmyH for taking the 1 demerit hit as it brings up a question from me. :)

I just got my rear diff replace (3rd gen or 2008 diff) under warranty with 3000 miles and 7 days left on my 05 warranty. hehe

I also had the hendrix (bad ass) axles installed with it.

I never had any diff problems with the original, but is the consensus that the problems with noise etc are directly related to the hop and twisting? Also, are their more noise issues with the 2nd or 3rd gen diffs? I am pretty sure the destruction was a direct result of all the hop, but I am hopeing that with the Hendrix alxes, I am good to go for the foreseeable future, if I spelled foreseeable that right :)

Any comments?

You do seem to be in good shape in terms of future reliability. Catastrophic failure was pretty much limited to the first generation of differentials. The only second generation catastrophic failures involved very high horsepower and sticky tires. As far as the issue of becoming noisey that has affected generations 1 & 2. The track record of 3rd generation differentials is not readily evident in this forum. I think this is because: (a) there aren't many installed so far; and (b) many of us were not even aware until recently that there had been a redesign and hence a 3rd generation, so no distinction would have been made in reporting any issues with 3rd generation units.

ewill3rd
08-14-09, 08:54 PM
I took two of those photos and I don't mind at all if you use them.
I try to leave my photobucket alone so it doesn't mess up things I have posted.
Not sure when I'll run out of room though.
I don't use it often so...

We have replaced many of these over the last year and a half and as I said, where I used to replace 3 or 4 of the Gen 1 or even Gen 2 units I have yet to see a Gen 3 coming back with any sort of complaint.

jpoole
08-14-09, 09:23 PM
Good info. I am hopeing that the problems with noise is caused by the hop in any of the gens. I am gonna take it easy and then change the fluid, have som Amisol ready to go in (Darkman convinced me with previous posts), after I get 500 miles on it. If the Hendrix axles fix the hop for me, can't really test till broken in (making 4 70 mile trips to hurry the process this weekend) I can give a test of that.

With all this I will feel I am safe to add some of that horsepower..... :)

Ewill3rd please don't let those pics die, they seem to be used in quite alot of posts here buddy......

Thanks guys.

Slithering_Joe
08-14-09, 09:55 PM
You do seem to be in good shape in terms of future reliability. Catastrophic failure was pretty much limited to the first generation of differentials. The only second generation catastrophic failures involved very high horsepower and sticky tires. As far as the issue of becoming noisey that has affected generations 1 & 2. The track record of 3rd generation differentials is not readily evident in this forum. I think this is because: (a) there aren't many installed so far; and (b) many of us were not even aware until recently that there had been a redesign and hence a 3rd generation, so no distinction would have been made in reporting any issues with 3rd generation units.

I an unaware that there is a "3rd generation" differential. How would one know that a "3rd gen" diff is installed? Mine, #25873498, was installed November 2008.

darkman
08-14-09, 10:05 PM
I an unaware that there is a "3rd generation" differential. How would one know that a "3rd gen" diff is installed? Mine, #25873498, was installed November 2008.

You would tell by part number. The part number I show for mine is 15793756 (Carrier), which was installed in September of 2007 and is 2nd generation. So unless I recorded the number incorrectly you may well have a 3rd generation.

jpoole
08-14-09, 10:15 PM
I just checked my invoice and 25873498 was the part number. That would seem to be the "3rd gen" Diff.

darkman
08-14-09, 10:27 PM
I just checked my invoice and 25873498 was the part number. That would seem to be the "3rd gen" Diff.

Great. Now all we need is the address of where the car is parked at night.

Slithering_Joe
08-15-09, 07:30 AM
Great. Now all we need is the address of where the car is parked at night.

Our dog was from Michael Vick's house.


Go Eagles!...I think.

ewill3rd
08-15-09, 08:11 AM
Pretty much anything that was replaced after early 2008 should be the latest diff design.
GM stock of the old one was used up pretty fast and I think they may have actually scrapped a bunch of them in favor of the newest.

wgbanks
08-15-09, 10:31 AM
Luke, how deep do I have to dig into my piggy bank to purchase the 3rd gen, part #25873498. Digging for change in between the couch cushions now as my 04 whine is not getting any better.

darkman
08-15-09, 10:35 AM
Luke, how deep do I have to dig into my piggy bank to purchase the 3rd gen, part #25873498. Digging for change in between the couch cushions now as my 04 whine is not getting any better.

Also Luke - at some point, when enough folks are out of warranty, a group buy might make some sense.

Leeman
08-15-09, 11:51 AM
Curious - I'm out of warranty - how much does the 3rd gen replacement cost if my 1st gen ever goes ?

-- Lee

darkman
08-15-09, 12:04 PM
GMPartsdirect (for reference only, I do not buy from them) shows an MRSP of $1922.86 and their price of $1693.10 (Base price of $1399.92 + Shipping&Handling of $293.98). $50.00 core charge.

wgbanks
08-15-09, 01:23 PM
I wonder if a 1st Gen diff is an acceptable core for a 3rd gen dif??:ill:

darkman
08-15-09, 01:58 PM
I wonder if a 1st Gen diff is an acceptable core for a 3rd gen dif??:ill:

The website does not indicate otherwise. But it does beg the question - what would they want the core for? - there is no apparent secondary (rebuilt) market for these.

JimmyH
08-15-09, 06:43 PM
well now, that is quite interesting. Mine was replaced 10/29/2008. The part number for the diff was 025873498 at $1884.51. So that means I have the 3rd gen diff? It looks absolutely identical to the "new" diff shown in the pictures in this thread.

I have about 3000 miles on this diff now with absolutely no howl or whine at all. And I have not exactly been easy on it.

darkman
08-15-09, 06:49 PM
well now, that is quite interesting. Mine was replaced 10/29/2008. The part number for the diff was 025873498 at $1884.51. So that means I have the 3rd gen diff? It looks absolutely identical to the "new" diff shown in the pictures in this thread.

I have about 3000 miles on this diff now with absolutely no howl or whine at all. And I have not exactly been easy on it.

Just more evidence that between the Generation III differential and the HE axles CTS-Vs may not be quite ready for the scrap heap yet.

JimmyH
08-15-09, 06:54 PM
I am keeping this car for the long haul. Unless my wife gets a good job and I hit that new Camaro SS :D (or there might be a maggie in my future)

And it seems that if I slip the clutch right, I can get off the line without any hop.
I am still amazed by how many compliments I still get from this car. I get looks all the time at the gas station. And I KNOW they are not looking at me.

ewill3rd
08-15-09, 10:37 PM
Yeah I am sure the Gen I is a fine core for the Gen III.
I turn them back in for warranty so I can't swear to it but they can't expect a retail customer to know the difference.

Not sure about the part number, I just put them in, fill them up, and back them out.
:lol:

Jimmy I want a Camaro so bad I can taste it, I built one on the vehicle configurator thing and I printed it out, got it right here to remind my wife what I want for my Birthday next year!

JimmyH
08-16-09, 01:59 PM
Jimmy I want a Camaro so bad I can taste it, I built one on the vehicle configurator thing and I printed it out, got it right here to remind my wife what I want for my Birthday next year!

Let me know how that works out for you; if you meet with success I will give that a try.

ewill3rd
08-16-09, 05:22 PM
:lol:

She might help me with a downpayment... I suspect I'll have to pay the rest.
I have pretty much given up job after job and spent every penny to take care of our family so she could get a nice cushy job.
Now she's got it... I think maybe I deserve a lil sumthin'.... ya know?
I miss my old '69 that I had when I met her.
:(

thebigjimsho
08-17-09, 08:05 PM
Pretty much anything that was replaced after early 2008 should be the latest diff design.
GM stock of the old one was used up pretty fast and I think they may have actually scrapped a bunch of them in favor of the newest.
Hmm, I know you replaced mine in early May of '08. Looks like I have something else valuable if it comes to parting out mah V...

Sublime69
09-02-09, 05:56 PM
Hey guys im new to the forum and i was just wondering if there is a way to tell that the diff is on its way out?? Mine has a slight wine to it when im cruzin. Is there anything i can do to extend the life of it? Also do they warranty any of the rear ends ever??? And last, when people upgradeto the newer diff do they just by a whole new one from cadillac?

Thanks!

thebigjimsho
09-02-09, 06:22 PM
A slight whine is fine.

JimmyH
09-02-09, 06:40 PM
Some have reported a slight wine cured by changing the fluids. Others have reported a louder whine afterwards. Some have said their replacement diff was worse the first. Others have had great luck.

Take your pick. In my case, I took my car in for a whine that was just loud enough to be heard at 50 mph with the windows down. I asked for a fluid change, they gave me a brand new diff.

Like many other things in life, the V is a crap shoot. But an extremely fun one :D

rand49er
09-02-09, 07:00 PM
Hey guys im new to the forum and i was just wondering if there is a way to tell that the diff is on its way out?? Mine has a slight wine to it when im cruzin. Is there anything i can do to extend the life of it? Also do they warranty any of the rear ends ever??? And last, when people upgradeto the newer diff do they just by a whole new one from cadillac?

Thanks!I see a new diff in my future, and it's on my nickel. :crybaby: But, the third gen diff seems like the berries, especially when combined with the DSS/H-E axles. Once there, my car's going 200k. My last mod will be to convert it to a hearse, and I'll take my last ride. I won't even care if it whines a bit. :rolleyes:

j_Son
12-05-11, 10:03 PM
Sorry guys I an a newb to some of this stuff so I appolagize if this is a stupid ? But I am a new v owner I have the 1st gen diff. I'm pushing about 430 to the wheel and am interested in doing much more, I'm just new to the diff controversy. Does the 3rd gen diff support much more hp? I feel it's a good idea to prepare the rear for more power before spending all my money on the power and cracking my diff.. Lol I have also come across a thread about the successfulness of getting the 8.8 diff fitted to the v. But dont like the cost of the kit and the fact that my b&b exhaust would need to be re-piped to fit it..? Anyone have any words of wisdom?

darkman
12-05-11, 10:43 PM
Sorry guys I an a newb to some of this stuff so I appolagize if this is a stupid ? But I am a new v owner I have the 1st gen diff. I'm pushing about 430 to the wheel and am interested in doing much more, I'm just new to the diff controversy. Does the 3rd gen diff support much more hp? I feel it's a good idea to prepare the rear for more power before spending all my money on the power and cracking my diff.. Lol I have also come across a thread about the successfulness of getting the 8.8 diff fitted to the v. But dont like the cost of the kit and the fact that my b&b exhaust would need to be re-piped to fit it..? Anyone have any words of wisdom?

The 3rd generation differentials will support more horsepower, but none of the OEM differentials will withstand abuse even with stock horsepower. Abuse in this case is defined as repeatedly driving through wheelhop episodes, hard launches, or power shifting-particularly with sticky tires (e.g. drag radials).

So if you are willing to either: (a) behave; or (b) limit misbehavior to "playing road racer" rather than "playing drag racer" you might get by with an OEM differential. The first generation differentials have been known to go many miles, even though those that were defective tended to grenade.

CadzillaTN
12-05-11, 11:01 PM
Where is Randy ? Did he quietly defect to V2....... :mystery:

wcryan
12-05-11, 11:14 PM
get the CS 8.8 partial kit. Find yourself a cobra 8.8 takeout and throw that baby in there.

j_Son
12-07-11, 09:39 AM
The 3rd generation differentials will support more horsepower, but none of the OEM differentials will withstand abuse even with stock horsepower. Abuse in this case is defined as repeatedly driving through wheelhop episodes, hard launches, or power shifting-particularly with sticky tires (e.g. drag radials).

So if you are willing to either: (a) behave; or (b) limit misbehavior to "playing road racer" rather than "playing drag racer" you might get by with an OEM differential. The first generation differentials have been known to go many miles, even though those that were defective tended to grenade.

Thx! I might look more into the 8.8 down the road! ;). Drag racer seems like more fun!

Junior1
12-07-11, 10:18 AM
Side by side of the new design vs. original from my 2005 built in April of '04

8350983510
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