: CTS V vs. new competitor! What do U think?



JBsZ06
07-02-04, 11:29 AM
Power Wars: BMW reaches new heights with next-generation M5


By GREG KABLE



When we gave you details on BMW’s new M5 due here next summer (Cover, April 26), we had to read between the lines to get the full picture. Now BMW has released the first official photos and more details.

At the new M5’s heart is a purpose-built 5.0-liter V10 delivering 507 hp. With individual throttle butterflies, BMW’s bi-Vanos variable valve timing, dual-flow stainless steel exhaust system and a stratospheric 8250-rpm redline, the BMW delivers its 507 hp at 7750 rpm and 383 lb-ft 6100 rpm. This is up 107 hp and 15 lb-ft on the outgoing model’s 4.9-liter V8 engine, making the new M5 is the most powerful road-going BMW ever.

The engine is mated to a third-generation version of BMW’s sequential manual gearbox (SMG), now boasting seven forward ratios and new electronics to speed shift times 20 percent. With 11 different shift programs, six in manual mode and five in automatic, the driver can tailor the gearbox’s action to suit the conditions. There’s even a launch control function.



Another new feature is the M5’s power button. At start up, the driver is given access to 400 hp in a default program, dubbed P400. Depressing the button unleashes P500 and the engine’s full 507 hp wallop along with a more responsive throttle. In P500 BMW says the new car will hit 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and its 155 mph top speed in 14.9 sec. With its speed-limiting chip removed, BMW says its new sedan will reach 205 mph, although company policy prohibits official modification, even at the dealer level.

Underpinning the new M5 is a modified version of the 5-series’ MacPherson strut (front) and multi-link (rear) suspension. While the geometry and pick-up points are the same, the ride height has been reduced and more negative camber added to handle cornering forces BMW claims can top 1.3 g.

The new car also adopts electronic damping control (EDC), providing the driver with three stiffness levels: comfort, normal and sport. The EDC is linked to the M5’s power steering system, which provides the driver two assistance levels.



There’s also two-stage dynamic stability control (DSC); the first stage with grip levels corresponding to a standard 5-series, the second stage, dubbed M Dynamic, allowing what BMW describes as “greater levels of slip.” Helping to rein the new M5 in are impressive looking 14.75-inch (front) and 14.5-inch (rear) ventilated and cross-drilled steel discs with twin-piston aluminum calipers. BMW says 62 to 0 mph takes less than 118 ft and 124 to 0 mph less than 460 ft.

BMW claims the new M5 can lap the Nürburgring, where much of its development was done, in 8 minutes, 25 seconds less than the outgoing M5.







http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02986726 (http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02986726)

baf_ctsv
07-02-04, 11:41 AM
The new M5 should outperform the current CTS-V is all catagories. It should , given the price is slated to top $80,000.00 !!! Not the lack or torque. This will be the typical high reving BMW.

DgtalPimp
07-02-04, 11:43 AM
I knew the new M5 was gonna have a V10 and reach 500 horse, but the last line in the post says volumes


BMW claims the new M5 can lap the Nürburgring, where much of its development was done, in 8 minutes, 25 seconds less than the outgoing M5.
Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)

urbanski
07-02-04, 11:46 AM
for that money....i'd get the X50 Porsche twin turbo.

T_Dogg8
07-02-04, 12:08 PM
regardless of the price of the m5. cadillac is going to have to keep upgrading and adding power. but i'm sure they will.

6104696
07-02-04, 01:04 PM
I'll keep my V, and with the extra thirty grand I suppose I could buy a WRX as a winter car.......

globed70
07-02-04, 01:09 PM
Being an ex-M5 guy, I think the new M5 should be awesome.... 500hp and apparently a 7 speed paddle shift... likely costing $80-90k. A tour-de-force of technology, and an even better autobahn attacker than the last M5. I like the alignment of sorts to their Formula 1 effort with the paddle shifting and high reving engine... no concern about the lack of bottom end torque, as that is Mercedes specialty now. If (when) GMPD drops an engine with something like 475-500hp into the V for a price of $55-60k, that will be a nice comparison. Much has been said about the amount of technology finding it's way into BMWs, and I personally prefer a simpler vehicle.

T_Dogg8
07-02-04, 01:27 PM
i'd agree with you there. how about a 427 big block in the v :lildevil:

and i know what you mean about the tech. more to break.

68CoupeDeVille
07-02-04, 02:11 PM
I still wish Caddy had made the CTS a little smaller and offered a coupe version, a la Bimmer 3 Series, that way the CTS-V would be aimed at the M3. The LS6 easily whoops the 3 Series' straight six. Then the someday STS-V could be aimed at the M5. Instead they did the typical Caddy thing and obeyed they're old mantra: "Bigger is better". I guess this way they can still stick to the GM mgmt demand that there be no Cadillac under $30k. The 325i sedan starts at $28,100.

Cal
07-02-04, 02:13 PM
I think the new M5 looks like dung. The 7 series body style isn't too bad but the 5 looks a little gimpy.

500hp with 365ft/lb of torque, that's cool I suppose, but not for me. I like to feel my ass pushing through the seat when my right foot goes down.

For less than $6k (as I have stated ad nauseum in other posts) the V can put down 450 at the wheels so if you want a competitor to the M5 for $20,000 less drop $3-5k in suspension upgrades and put in heads/air on your V. With it's already superb handling I would wager it'd give the M5 more than a run for its money on the Nub, and best it in any street/highway setting.

I wouldn't ever buy an M5 so I have no idea why this gets me heated but it sorta does. The V is just a better car, who can argue that? :cool:

T_Dogg8
07-02-04, 02:25 PM
The V is just a better car, who can argue that? :cool:
i can. don't want to and would probably lose, but i can :D

Raven05
07-02-04, 04:23 PM
Let's hope this "Competition" between manufacturers doesn't end like the last one did. Brand new early 70's "Muscle Cars" sat on dealer lots for years until they sold them for way under invoice to unload them. ( That included the Hemi "Super Birds", which now sell for enough money to buy a whole herd of V's. ) I myself practically gave a Vette away when, according to my wife, we needed a "more practicle" car. ( I still say the kids fit very nicely in the trunk, and their weight back there reduced wheel spin significantly. ) :D

T_Dogg8
07-02-04, 04:56 PM
Let's hope this "Competition" between manufacturers doesn't end like the last one did. Brand new early 70's "Muscle Cars" sat on dealer lots for years until they sold them for way under invoice to unload them. ( That included the Hemi "Super Birds", which now sell for enough money to buy a whole herd of V's. ) I myself practically gave a Vette away when, according to my wife, we needed a "more practicle" car. ( I still say the kids fit very nicely in the trunk, and their weight back there reduced wheel spin significantly. ) :D
wow....you're the kind of guy i'm looking for now. i'm looking to get a decent vette cheap.

Jon
07-02-04, 05:30 PM
And the CTS-V Plus is supposed to have 600hp..... With 2 less cylinders.

zeek
07-02-04, 05:44 PM
well the cts-v sits nicely between the m3 and the m5. the sts-v is supposed to be aimed to out do the m5... we'll see just what happens...

ctsvinman
07-02-04, 10:34 PM
Ladies and fello's..... the new M5 WILL NOT be an 80k car. I was going to buy a used M5 and I drive a 740iL now, so I do know quite a bit about BMW's and am a Big BMW fan. I have never driven a vehicle as smoooooth as my 740.

"I'll land the plane now"....The last 03 M5's sold were still selling at the $76k+ sticker prices, so you can bet with the added engineering and inflation the new M5 will cost close to $90k. That is not taking into consideration the first year, or at least first 6 moths, where dealers will get a $10k mark-up above sticker. It happeded at the end of 99' and into first half of 00' when the first model was released, it will happen again. Don't let the $80k claims fool you, since when have you seen a vehicle in Car n Driver or Road n track where the cost the magazine listed was reality, it's generally low.

By the way, I have an 05 V on order, I decided to go with this rather than a used M5 at the same or higher price.

VinMan out......

thebigjimsho
07-03-04, 08:57 PM
As a longtime BMW rumpswab and continual dreamer of the M5 since it came out with the first M6, I love the new M5.

But, there is no way that 4200lb car will ever see 185, nevermind 205! And while it may see over 1g in skidpad, no group of electronics will ever make it feel like earlier M5s or our beloved V in basic handling.

As for power, it still can't touch the torque #s in our current Vs and we can all get close to those hp numbers for only a few grand, naturally aspirated if you like.

Devil_concours
07-03-04, 09:13 PM
As a longtime BMW rumpswab and continual dreamer of the M5 since it came out with the first M6, I love the new M5.

But, there is no way that 4200lb car will ever see 185, nevermind 205! And while it may see over 1g in skidpad, no group of electronics will ever make it feel like earlier M5s or our beloved V in basic handling.

As for power, it still can't touch the torque #s in our current Vs and we can all get close to those hp numbers for only a few grand, naturally aspirated if you like.
it will not get 1g in skidpad with that much weight but seeing speeds near 200 is possible with weight.

globed70
07-03-04, 11:39 PM
But, there is no way that 4200lb car will ever see 185, nevermind 205! And while it may see over 1g in skidpad, no group of electronics will ever make it feel like earlier M5s or our beloved V in basic handling.


As a former M5 owner, I agree that FEEL is a huge issue on the newer BMW M cars... but they are still on the sportier side of Mercedes AMG.

We can run the numbers to figure top speed, but your thinking is not quite right... at those speeds total drag is the issue.... and wind resistance is a far larger factor than rolling resistance (which includes weight). Depending on how slippery the new M5 is, and how they geared 6th and 7th gears, then it is quite possible to go above 190. Check the top speed of the last M5... about 175-180mph if I recall without limiter.

Crozier
07-03-04, 11:56 PM
I've got a thousand bucks that says that a stock M5 will never see 205 mph. I hope somebody takes me up on it......
I also don't see this this getting to 155mph in 14.9 secs. Both figures demand quite a bit more torque.

GNSCOTT
07-04-04, 12:13 AM
You all keep misreading it. The new M5 is supposed to START at $80k plus.

Devil_concours
07-04-04, 12:25 AM
I've got a thousand bucks that says that a stock M5 will never see 205 mph. I hope somebody takes me up on it......
I also don't see this this getting to 155mph in 14.9 secs. Both figures demand quite a bit more torque.
torque is important in drag races and horsepower is important on top speed runs.
As for reaching 205, it probably won't see that speed considering it's got a governor at 155 like other german sedans.

Dreamin
07-04-04, 12:32 AM
Car supposedly weighs 1755kg => 3860lbs

And 0-155 is 19.6sec (4.7s+14.7s) - press release is poorly worded

wildwhl
07-04-04, 02:40 AM
I'm sure the new M5 will have great presence, be a driving tour de force, and bring smiles to everyone who buys one.

That being said, I'll keep my V and get the 500hp and equal handling to boot with a little ca$h and effort. Hmmm, the money left could go towards a Noble M12? Now that's an "M" series I'd own...

gothicaleigh
07-04-04, 03:01 AM
No worries.
By the time that the new M5 reaches the market, Cadillac will have an LS2 or LS7 CTS-V in excess of 500hp on the way.

Not to mention that the STS is actually the car Cadillac is aiming at the 5 series. I don't see a V version coming out with less than 500hp for that car.

BMW will build their new M5, and without a doubt it will be great. It is what they have been doing for years and I would be lying if I were to say that I wouldn't want to own one when it is released. They are great cars.
But now BMW has more competition than ever before. Cadillac didn't invest $4 billion into it's reinvention to stop now. There will be an M5 challenger from GM's new performance division in time to head off the latest threat from Germany. You can count on that.

globed70
07-04-04, 08:37 AM
4.7s to 60... at least that's an HONEST estimate of what a customer can see on an average run.... not the crap that GM spews forth for a car with 100hp less. :annoyed:

As soon as the specs come out on gear ratios, axle ratio, and an estimate of the power curve between 6-8.2k, we can estimate top speed without the 155 limiter. :cool:

And the button presses needed to go to full performance are just plain stupid (I hated having to press the Sport button EVERY time I got into the last M5). They SHOULD have an owner controlled valet setting that cuts power in half with lousy throttle response and fully auto SMG... :banghead:

The lack of torque isn't an issue for outright performance, with the SMG 7 speed and knowledgeable driver keeping it in the 6-8.2k fun zone... but with 3 passengers around town, it ain't going to be alot of fun. In a smaller, lighter car like M3, the high spinning motor makes some sense, but in a 3900lb car? On the autobahn at full boil it will be incredible. They are making a good case NOT to get the 6 speed stick when it comes out. :helpless:

globed70
07-04-04, 08:49 AM
it will not get 1g in skidpad with that much weight but seeing speeds near 200 is possible with weight.

The 1.3g is NOT on a skidpad, but in transition... just like the CTS-V can get over 1g in transition.

Cal
07-04-04, 12:41 PM
Here is some data I had seen the other day:

At the new M5’s heart is a purpose-built 5.0-liter V10 delivering 507 hp. With individual throttle butterflies, BMW’s bi-Vanos variable valve timing, dual-flow stainless steel exhaust system and a stratospheric 8250-rpm redline, the BMW delivers its 507 hp at 7750 rpm and 383 lb-ft 6100 rpm. This is up 107 hp and 15 lb-ft on the outgoing model’s 4.9-liter V8 engine, making the new M5 is the most powerful road-going BMW ever.

0-62mph in 4.7

0-125mph in 14.9 secs

unrestricted top speed 205mph



And another article:

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/bmw-m5-v10-engine.htm

JBsZ06
07-04-04, 11:32 PM
Car supposedly weighs 1755kg => 3860lbs

And 0-155 is 19.6sec (4.7s+14.7s) - press release is poorly worded
Thank you for clearing that up..

19.6 seconds to 155mph is very impressive.

Cool!

mauiz8
07-05-04, 08:43 PM
i was a huge bmw fan and i still love my z8 and wanted a m5 to complement my z8. the new m5 is going to lose a lot compared to the old one. not only is it the worse looking car bmw produced , but also won't be as fun as the old m5 due to the i drive and other computer govererned features.with a $30,000.00 savings we can have 500 plus horse power in our Vs. and plenty of change left over where warranty isn't even an issue in the mods. my bmw dealer iws even more impressed with my new v than the upcomming m5.as far as the m5 govererned at 155 a simple $500.00 download from dinan removes that. i did that on my z8 after 1200 miles. even though i don't get a chance to use it here on maui.

Shinkaze
07-06-04, 11:44 AM
And the button presses needed to go to full performance are just plain stupid (I hated having to press the Sport button EVERY time I got into the last M5). They SHOULD have an owner controlled valet setting that cuts power in half with lousy throttle response and fully auto SMG... :banghead:

totally agree. The one thing I HATE about the e39 M5 is the crummy steering and having to push the "sport" button every time you get in the car to get the steering to "feel" like a decent car....now they're applying that same paradigm to the power too??? And sheesh, 400hp? Some reduction. If I wanted to limit power to the Valet, let me dial it down to 150hp.

-Adam

DgtalPimp
07-06-04, 12:24 PM
Some things not mentioned here that BMW has, that in my opinion Cadillac should have are total integration of the subsystems. Control for the stereo on the sterling wheel is at a minimum the standard, total control of the stereo, air, etc would be nice (BMW has). Holding your unlock button on the key remote to roll down the windows is a must, as well as holding the lock button to roll them up (BMW has). A remote start feature would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath on this.

When mentioning the competitor we should also look beyond the car it self. I have been a BMW guy for years, and the service at the dealership was the best I have seen yet. I hope Cadillac is striving to reach the same service standards. If Cadillac wants to get in the game of reaching the crowd that will continue to buy >50k luxury sport cars, they need to listen to the buyers and react accordingly.

Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)

globed70
07-06-04, 12:54 PM
Some things not mentioned here that BMW has, that in my opinion Cadillac should have are total integration of the subsystems.

When mentioning the competitor we should also look beyond the car it self. I have been a BMW guy for years, and the service at the dealership was the best I have seen yet. I hope Cadillac is striving to reach the same service standards. Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)

If total integration is BMW's iDrive, then that is disintegration of reputation IMHO. I've had the pleasure of iDrive in a 7-series and it was crap. The controls on my M5 were decent, but the V has been more intuitive for the most part. Controls on the wheel are a nice thing, but I'm impressed that GMPD took a stand towards sporty selections on the wheel.

From what I've heard, Caddy service is meant to be good. I think that is for older folks driving u-boats. For performance guys, I'm not convinced the average Caddy dealer knows how to make us happy. BMW had similar issues with my M5, where many dealers didn't know crap... but I think Caddy is worse thusfar.

DgtalPimp
07-06-04, 02:30 PM
If total integration is BMW's iDrive, then that is disintegration of reputation IMHO. I've had the pleasure of iDrive in a 7-series and it was crap. The controls on my M5 were decent, but the V has been more intuitive for the most part. Controls on the wheel are a nice thing, but I'm impressed that GMPD took a stand towards sporty selections on the wheel.
I wasn't so much going for the iDrive as the answer for total integration, but more like the basic controls to allow a driver to keep their hands on the wheel (which will result in better performance??) which include, stereo, air, maybe toggle between cd, and am/fm/xm bands

.

Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)

gothicaleigh
07-06-04, 02:35 PM
I wasn't so much going for the iDrive as the answer for total integration, but more like the basic controls to allow a driver to keep their hands on the wheel (which will result in better performance??) which include, stereo, air, maybe toggle between cd, and am/fm/xm bands

The CTS since day 1 has allowed you to set any and all of those functions to the programmable steering wheel buttons. What appears to be the problem? You even get to select which button does what.

I would like them to add the voice command feature from the normal CTS to the V and speed up it's response time. The voice recognition is excellent and would put every aspect of the car at the touch of a single steering wheel control. :)

DgtalPimp
07-06-04, 02:51 PM
The CTS since day 1 has allowed you to set any and all of those functions to the programmable steering wheel buttons. What appears to be the problem? You even get to select which button does what.

I would like them to add the voice command feature from the normal CTS to the V and speed up it's response time. The voice recognition is excellent and would put every aspect of the car at the touch of a single steering wheel control. :)
The main problem is the V does not have the programmable buttons. :)


Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)

greer
07-10-04, 08:09 PM
When does the CTS V plus come out?

Cal
07-11-04, 02:20 PM
I wasn't so much going for the iDrive as the answer for total integration, but more like the basic controls to allow a driver to keep their hands on the wheel (which will result in better performance??) which include, stereo, air, maybe toggle between cd, and am/fm/xm bands

.

Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)

The only thing you should need to do to the radio and air when you are driving so hard both hands are on the wheel is shut them off. :cool:

DgtalPimp
07-12-04, 10:49 AM
The only thing you should need to do to the radio and air when you are driving so hard both hands are on the wheel is shut them off. :cool:
Agreed, when driving hard. When driving less than 100% I would like to hit the next preset, jump to CD, etc. I have trouble getting over the normal CTS having this feature and the V not even being an option.


Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)

greer
07-21-04, 12:00 AM
The only thing you should need to do to the radio and air when you are driving so hard both hands are on the wheel is shut them off. :cool:


You are right, just turn it off!

DgtalPimp
07-21-04, 01:34 AM
The only thing you should need to do to the radio and air when you are driving so hard both hands are on the wheel is shut them off. :cool:

You can't do that from the wheel. :lildevil:

Dgtal (dgtalpimp@pimpdaddy.com)