: Tstat mod...



Razorecko
02-04-09, 07:45 PM
Most higher hp/heat generating vehicles really benefit from a lower temp tstat especially in the summer heat. Anybody know at what temp the stock tstat opens and if there's any aftermarket type that will work as a performance replacement ? I know we are still all freezing right now but i'm just thinking ahead of time :sneaky:

wait4me
02-04-09, 07:54 PM
I dont think it would be wise to go lower than the 194 that it is. There are alot of calibration changes that would have to be made to set it up for that. It dont do alot of things until 170+F So that rules out a 160 stat, and a 180 isnt too far off from the 194.. The best thing to do is just allow more air into the engine compartment and increase the intercooler efficiency. That and Wrap the exhaust if you really want to see a drop in temps underhood.

The Computer itself physically can only turn on fans from 192F and up. But in the efilive software he have made a patch for the operating sytem that allows you to set it lower. But that only fixes one thing. The rest are all fuel and timing related.. You dont have the same timing and fuel while it is lower temps.

wait4me
02-04-09, 07:56 PM
You "CAN" modify the stock one yourself though if you really want to. You just shim it with thin metal rings until it opens at the right temp you want. You test it with a thermometer and hot water in a cup.

Razorecko
02-05-09, 12:31 PM
^ sounds like this v could really use an aftermarket hood cooling system w/ a "ram air" type intake port.

Rey
02-05-09, 12:52 PM
I have been experimenting with my '05's thermostat. I have concluded that it is not so important at what temp the thermostat begins to open, which is the temp. termostats are rated at.. What is important is what temperature the motor maintains with a particular thermostat say at highway speed. In town there are huge swings in coolant temps with any termostat. My stock thermostat was rated at 186, but maintained a 192 temperature under steady road conditions. I tried a Lingenfelter 180 to find it maintained temps at 199. Then I tried the Lingenfelter 160, and my motor runs at 180-182. I am keeping this thermostat. There has been no need whatsowever to recalibrate anything. The motor is fully operating in closed loop at this temp.
There is some debate as to what is the ideal coolant temp. I know that for emission purposes manufacturers raised coolant temps many years ago. Some tuners say run a motor as hot as possible to conserve energy. I like a little cooler motor simply because I think the combustion chambers are a bit less likely to see detonation. Whatever, my experience in temperatures from 30 to 85 is that with the 160 my motor runs at 180-182 under steady state highway conditions.

musclesbmf
02-05-09, 12:55 PM
I dont think it would be wise to go lower than the 194 that it is. There are alot of calibration changes that would have to be made to set it up for that. It dont do alot of things until 170+F So that rules out a 160 stat, and a 180 isnt too far off from the 194.. The best thing to do is just allow more air into the engine compartment and increase the intercooler efficiency. That and Wrap the exhaust if you really want to see a drop in temps underhood.

The Computer itself physically can only turn on fans from 192F and up. But in the efilive software he have made a patch for the operating sytem that allows you to set it lower. But that only fixes one thing. The rest are all fuel and timing related.. You dont have the same timing and fuel while it is lower temps.

I am surprised at this. I am by no means an expert or even consider myself knowledgable (and I really appreciate all the info WAIT4ME provides for us), but coming from a C6 Z06, the computer in those cars would start pulling timing, etc after the engine reached a specific temp. So, one of the mods was using a 160* t-stat and turning the fans on sooner. I did this with LSEdit and had it tuned with LSEdit by Halltech. I would have thought that one of the mods in your ECU package was to turn on fans sooner.

As for the original post, just changing the t-stat will ALLOW the car to run cooler, not make it run cooler. In stop and go traffic, temp will be the same because that is controlled by fans. On the interstate, you would notice cooler temps.

Has anyone used Water Wetter yet?

Thanks,
Mark

Razorecko
02-05-09, 01:05 PM
^ I haven't heard great things about what watter wetter does to the cooling system long term. That is the question, at what temp do you go from performance to pulling timing ? - I have found that the ideal running temps are usually between 182-190. If you go to low sometimes you'll get a cel for not reaching operating temps in an alloted time and if you go too high than you'll might get pulled timing anyway.

musclesbmf
02-05-09, 01:23 PM
I've used water wetter in all my previous vehicles (2003, Mustang Cobra, 1987 Buick GN, 2003 Z06, 2006 Z06) and never had any ill effects. I guess I'm not familiar enough with this new engine yet to even know where to check coolant level, etc. I will be using Water Wetter as soon as I can familiarize myself with the engine.

If I remember correctly, in the Z06, once the temp got over 190* (might have been a little higher), the ECU would start to pull timing. I'm with you... I like my cars to run between 180 and 190.

Rey
02-05-09, 01:31 PM
To me Water Wetter is a no brainer. It is cheap and easy to use. It is a detergent. Basically, it breaks water surface tension, which can form small air pockets in a cooling system. Just pour it into your expansion tank and it will mix in over time. The LT1 motors really suffered from coolant pockets. LS motors are much better. I have gone now to Evans waterless coolant, which when used properly completely eliminates these pockets. It is expensive at $30/gal and a hassle to change over, but once done you can just about forget the subject. I don't think either of these products will show a decrease in coolant temps, but coolant temps are measured near the thermostat. Where you might see a difference is in the coolant areas near some of your exhaust valves.

wait4me
02-05-09, 01:31 PM
I do make the vehicle run 20 degrees cooler than stock. It will hover now right around the 196 mark always with my tune. I didnt say it was a bad thing to run cooler than stock. I just dont think it is worth paying alot of money for something when 190~ degree temps are just fine. That and other things would need to be modified table wise to change for the cooler temps if you go lower..

Go to www.efilive.com and download our software. PM me or email me at jessebubb@yahoo.com and i will send you over a stock tune and a custom Def file for it from the 2009 for you guys to look at. You can see the timing and fuel that is modifed by the cooler engine coolant temps..


Remember though, Just because the engine has cooler coolant temps dont mean that the combustion chamber is that much cooler... Fire is fire. :) Metal takes a bit to transfer heat away from something..

Dale Pittman
02-05-09, 01:44 PM
For the past 20 years I have put 160 thermostats in all of my late model street cars, 87 5.0 GT, 87 GN, 90 SC T-Bird, 91 Syclone, 94 LT-1 camaro, 2005 ZO6, 2008 STS-V, etc...

All have benifited with lower underhood temps, less heat soak in the staging lanes at the drag strip, maintains better oil pressure by reducing the oil temp, and most importantly allows more aggressive ignition timing, which is the key to getting the most power out of any engine.

Its all about keeping the combustion chambers cool and away from detonation, regardless on if it is a late model EFI, Turbo, SC, or high Hp N/A engine.

On our 1300+ Hp pro mod drag race engines on every pass I make sure the engine temp is between 90-100 deg before I start it up in the water box before all passes and it is rarely above 120-130 deg when going down the track.

Thanks,
Dale

wait4me
02-05-09, 02:29 PM
On a street car is different, as is the newer technology and computers running them. A race car, yes ok, to some extent the cooler the better. But not on a 2006 up production vehicles.

A cold motor has more friction. Rings, oil, all moving parts, And puts out more emmissions due to incomplete combustion and poor catalyst temps that may cause a clogging failure....

A hot motor has less parasitic loss, but is more prone to self igniting of fuel. "detonation" but puts out less emissions..

BUT they have compensated for things inside the newer ecms to not be full power untill the engine has hit a set coolant temp, And EVEN intake valve temp...

Even Rev limits are modified and frictional airflow tables. So if you go lower, there are hundreds of tables to safely set it back up correctly.

192 is just fine for our cars. As i have stated before, if you want to lower the temps under hood, Just wrap the exhaust. THAT is where the heat is comming from..

The Tony Show
02-05-09, 03:25 PM
A cold motor has more friction. Rings, oil, all moving parts, And puts out more emmissions due to incomplete combustion and poor catalyst temps that may cause a clogging failure....

^Bingo. Keep the coolant too cold, and your oil is never going to warm up enough to properly lubricate the engine. Oil and coolant are usually within 10-15 degrees of each other, so if your coolant is at 120 then your oil is probably somewhere around 130-140. NOT GOOD. Not only does it not lubricate as well, but it doesn't get hot enough to completely vaporize the moisture in it, and ends up holding water inside your oil system. That's why they always tell you that short drives are bad for a car- the oil never gets hot enough to get rid of the moisture in it.

I've seen guys slap unnecessary oil coolers on cars and end up damaging the engine by not covering the cooler when temperatures dropped outside.

Turning the fans on sooner will help blow out some heat from the exhaust, which is what most tuners do.

Razorecko
02-05-09, 08:04 PM
Most cars have a higher temp stat set from the factory for emissions purposes only. From my expeirance you shouldn't run any vehicle hard that has under a 160 F' oil temp. But with a lower tstat you will see a good 10 degree lower temp in oil. Like someone said a lower tstat fluctuates wildly on normal stop and go traffic but gives a real serious boost at highway speeds where the temp will stabilize.

musclesbmf
02-05-09, 08:10 PM
WAIT4ME: Always enjoy your posts; very informative. Thanks for the heads up of making the car run 20* cooler. Good to know. I sent you an email yesterday from my work account asking for information on the various levels of tuning you have ready for the car on both the ECU and TCU. Just curious if you got it. My name is Mark Barnum.

DALE PITTMAN: I like your cars. We have similar tastes. I too had a t-bird (turbo) and a 5.0 Mustang. I do have to call you out on your Z06 though. No 2005 model year. Just had to poke at you a little. :highfive:

CSX
02-06-09, 11:42 PM
Keep in mind that the LSA has an aluminum block...it's been shown time and time again that LS motors just like warmer temperatures,. Someone did an in-depth test with dyno numbers and temperature readings on a 4th-gen LS1 F-body, let me see if I can dig that up...