: Anyone want to start a 3.6L tuning discussion?



chevyhighperformance
02-04-09, 01:09 PM
I'm going to start tuning a 2004 3.6L using hptuners. It looks like gm made it complicated than needs to be. Anyone have any experience tuning the 3.6L?

Hogg
02-11-09, 02:19 PM
Too complicated? Its a 3.6 V6 that outputs over 300hp. Its going to have some complications. In 1995 a V8 of 350 cubic inches was needed for 300hp in the Vette LT1.

Things have come a long way.
peace
Hog

N0DIH
02-11-09, 06:59 PM
3.6L DI or not DI?

But the torque and hp curve of the LT1 is FAR fatter than the 3.6L (less peaky). 300 HP is still 300 HP worth of work, the 350 can do it lower rpm than the 3.6L, but 300 hp is 300 hp..... But overall these days it is amazing they are getting a small engine to some good hp.

But todays engines NEED to have all that tuning ability. This is the only way to fully characterize the whole needs of the engine and meet them.

If you have questions, post here, I will do what I can to help. Post your tune if you can and we can take a look (some have HPT here, some know people who do....)

AJxtcman
02-12-09, 08:16 AM
do you think I can disassemble the VDF?

N0DIH
02-12-09, 09:09 AM
Yes, the same way I am going to do the one I am going to work on.... :)

:highfive: Might need a cable upgrade first.


do you think I can disassemble the VDF?

chevyhighperformance
02-12-09, 06:55 PM
Too complicated? Its a 3.6 V6 that outputs over 300hp. Its going to have some complications. In 1995 a V8 of 350 cubic inches was needed for 300hp in the Vette LT1.

Things have come a long way.
peace
Hog

The 3.6L is rated for 255HP. My point is that the tuning is more complicated that it needs to be. For example, there are two main (warm) cam phasing tables (one for intake and one for the exhaust) and four spark timing tables (based on intake and exhaust valve timing position). Every operating point on the main (warm) cam phasing tables results in one unique sparking timing value that is derrived from the four spark timing tables. So, why not just have one spark timing table for the main (warm) cam phasing? You can have a separate timing table for main (cold) cam phasing. The ECM knows to use the main (cold) cam phasing table; why can't the ECM also know to use a main (cold) spark timing table.

chevyhighperformance
02-12-09, 07:06 PM
Our 3.6L is not direct injection.

Here are some results of my first tune on the 2004 CTS 3.6L. I refined the intake and exhaust valve timing tables and the 4 spark timing tables to be essentially the same as an 07 3.6L. I then modified the tables and the WOT A/F. The result is a better idle and MPG so far. According to the instantaneous MPG in the DIC, with the base 07 tune, I was getting 25 MPG on a certain stretch of highway. With the new tune the MPG went up to 27 MPG.

On a certain hill at a slower speed with the 07 tune, my MPG was 18. With the new tune the MPG went up to 21-22. What happened here is that the engine efficiency went up and for the given throttle position the and the transmission was able to stay in an upper gear going up the hill which increased overall efficiency.

WOT performance has improved, but there is more room for improvement. I only had 91 octane in the car, but I am going to tune for 93 octane.

I probably should first tune the cam phasing tables, then adjust, and then spark timing.

My problem is that I'm having trouble envisioning the cam phasing for every operating point. For example, for a given operating point, I couldn't instantly jump in and move the cam phasing table in the correct direction - I would have to experiment some.

For example, at 2000 RPM and 30% load as an inital guess do I add 2 degrees of timing to the intake and leave the exhaust alone, do I subtract 2 degrees of timing from the intake and leave the exhaust alone, etc.

N0DIH
02-12-09, 07:07 PM
Simple things aren't anymore. They need to characterize EVERYTHING about the engine operation, now that we have fast enough PCM's they are doing it. They wouldn't if emissions and power didn't need to be met.

Yes, they are complicated, and it takes time to learn why they did it and what to do about tuning it. Simple single timing tables aren't enough to run on the fine edge.

AJxtcman
02-12-09, 10:16 PM
always I mean always remember the VVT = EGR. VVT has replaced the EGR valve. That is one of its purposes.
The VVT works with Combustion Chamber Pressures to control NOX. Mostly the Exhaust cams.
I think this engine has compression sensing ignition also. I would hope the HPT has added the fields needed to change the target Combustion Chamber Pressure.

Our 3.6L is not direct injection.

Here are some results of my first tune on the 2004 CTS 3.6L. I refined the intake and exhaust valve timing tables and the 4 spark timing tables to be essentially the same as an 07 3.6L. I then modified the tables and the WOT A/F. The result is a better idle and MPG so far. According to the instantaneous MPG in the DIC, with the base 07 tune, I was getting 25 MPG on a certain stretch of highway. With the new tune the MPG went up to 27 MPG.

On a certain hill at a slower speed with the 07 tune, my MPG was 18. With the new tune the MPG went up to 21-22. What happened here is that the engine efficiency went up and for the given throttle position the and the transmission was able to stay in an upper gear going up the hill which increased overall efficiency.

WOT performance has improved, but there is more room for improvement. I only had 91 octane in the car, but I am going to tune for 93 octane.

I probably should first tune the cam phasing tables, then adjust, and then spark timing.

My problem is that I'm having trouble envisioning the cam phasing for every operating point. For example, for a given operating point, I couldn't instantly jump in and move the cam phasing table in the correct direction - I would have to experiment some.

For example, at 2000 RPM and 30% load as an inital guess do I add 2 degrees of timing to the intake and leave the exhaust alone, do I subtract 2 degrees of timing from the intake and leave the exhaust alone, etc.

chevyhighperformance
02-13-09, 07:40 PM
I didn't see any compression controlled spark timing tables. There are a couple stock 3.6L files on the hptuners repository if you want to see for yourself.

AJxtcman
02-14-09, 07:40 AM
I didn't see any compression controlled spark timing tables. There are a couple stock 3.6L files on the hptuners repository if you want to see for yourself.
great I will pull them.

AJxtcman
02-14-09, 08:32 AM
Take a look at the DTC list and then take a look at the number of parameters that you can change.
I think HPT is lacking on this VDF.

chevyhighperformance
02-14-09, 07:05 PM
Take a look at the DTC list and then take a look at the number of parameters that you can change.
I think HPT is lacking on this VDF.
You're right but I think they are the only game in town. The kicker is that the CTS needed 4 credits ($200 - most expensive vehicle) for one license and doesn't include the tranny.

AJxtcman
02-15-09, 09:39 AM
You're right but I think they are the only game in town. The kicker is that the CTS needed 4 credits ($200 - most expensive vehicle) for one license and doesn't include the tranny.

EFIlive?
Wester's? Lyndon won't sell you the ability to tune your car anymore, but he will sell you a tune and a PCM.
Maybe I shouldn't have said it like that. If you want to spend $3k to $15k he will sell you the software.

Talk to Jesse at wait4meperformance.com

chevyhighperformance
02-15-09, 06:56 PM
EFI is out. It looks like they have similar vehicles though. They expressed concern with bosch ecm.

Jesse posted some good stuff with the CTS-V. I haven't contacted him yet.

Wester's didn't list the 3.6L CTS, but I should contact them separately.

AJxtcman
02-16-09, 07:36 AM
EFI is out. It looks like they have similar vehicles though. They expressed concern with bosch ecm.

Jesse posted some good stuff with the CTS-V. I haven't contacted him yet.

Wester's didn't list the 3.6L CTS, but I should contact them separately.

Wester's
2004-2007 Cadillac V6 Models
2004-2007 Cadillac CTS, STS, SRX Models


04-07 Cadillac CTS V6 3.6, 2.8

05-07 Cadillac STS V6 3.6

04-07 Cadillac SRX V6 3.6

N0DIH
02-16-09, 03:55 PM
Jesse knows the CTS-V? :) Just kidding, I still wanna see his car(s)....

A friend of mine has a Jesse CTS-V tune on his 05 LS6 and loves it.


EFI is out. It looks like they have similar vehicles though. They expressed concern with bosch ecm.

Jesse posted some good stuff with the CTS-V. I haven't contacted him yet.

Wester's didn't list the 3.6L CTS, but I should contact them separately.

DVS-LY7
03-18-09, 10:21 AM
just a question in regards to tuning these engines...i have one in my commodore ute ( which i have been told by a few members off another u.s. forum that it resembles the el camino...lol ) anyway...does the cts with the 3.6 come in a manual transmission aswell as the auto...or are u guys just running the auto box behind it...as we have 2 to choose from...the 4L60E - 4 speed auto, or the 5L60E 5 speed with active select?