: Time Serts, Norm's, SureGrip Stud Kit??????



mgturbo1
02-01-09, 07:57 PM
Time Serts, Norm's, SureGrip Stud Kit??????
Has anyone tried SureGrip SG102 Stud Kit designed and developed by Northstar Performance. http://www.northstarperformance.com/sgstuds.php

Any input as to which is best?
Where to buy parts?
Headgasket? Brand

97EldoCoupe
02-01-09, 08:20 PM
Totally up to you. I developed the SG102 stud kit, so you know my answer...

The studs are one piece and strong. They won't pull up or expand when torqued. I've done the head gaskets on over 50 engines with 0 failures, and if inserts such as the two types stated above were all I could use, I'd give up doing Northstars. I've had four calls in the last two months from people who have done their head gaskets with both types of inserts, that have failed within the first two hours. I don't know the exact reasons why but I have a pretty good idea. I now have Davz old engine block in my new shop with the *orm's inserts that had failed- I'll be doing some inspection work on that engine as to why. These are the best inserts available on the market, but still, studs are the way to go.

Do it once, and do it for good.

SG102 studs, Fel-Pro gaskets, and you're good to go for a very, very long time.

AJxtcman
02-02-09, 08:10 AM
Totally up to you. I developed the SG102 stud kit, so you know my answer...

The studs are one piece and strong. They won't pull up or expand when torqued. I've done the head gaskets on over 50 engines with 0 failures, and if inserts such as the two types stated above were all I could use, I'd give up doing Northstars. I've had four calls in the last two months from people who have done their head gaskets with both types of inserts, that have failed within the first two hours. I don't know the exact reasons why but I have a pretty good idea. I now have Davz old engine block in my new shop with the *orm's inserts that had failed- I'll be doing some inspection work on that engine as to why. These are the best inserts available on the market, but still, studs are the way to go.

Do it once, and do it for good.

SG102 studs, Fel-Pro gaskets, and you're good to go for a very, very long time.

I just can't see how Norm's inserts would fail. :helpless:
That would have to be have been a 100% installer issue

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 11:52 AM
I still haven't had a chance to check that engine over - maybe, maybe not. As I said Norms are the best inserts on the market. If you choose to go with inserts, make sure you use those.

STSj90
02-02-09, 01:50 PM
Id go with studs...

[NortHStaR]
02-03-09, 03:20 AM
Studs are the way to go my friend, I used them on my HG job they are pretty slick and Jake (^^ 97eldo) has used them on 50+ HG jobs with no failures so far (not including the people that have bought and installed themselves).

He was also very helpful when I was having problems with the job itself.

jeffrsmith
02-03-09, 07:07 PM
Block porosity (bad casting) could have been an issue with the failed Norm's insert.

Or, AJ could be right and it was an installer issue.

PSRmark
02-03-09, 07:35 PM
That stud kit is sexy :worship:


I'd like to hear some feedback from anyone, if anyone on here has used them yet.

97EldoCoupe
02-03-09, 08:36 PM
Chacen, ``NortHStaR`` has used the studs as well as a few other forum members and many people that are not forum members. If installed correctly - (the large diameter end must be countersunk roughly one sixteenth of an inch below the deck surface) the chance of head gasket failure is slim to nil. If not properly countersunk, the head can tighten against the stud itself instead of compressing the gasket against the block- instant failure. This is where common sense comes into play. Really, it`s foolproof and by far the easiest and most durable way to secure the heads once and for good, and retain even clamping force on the head gasket.

IXSLR8
02-04-09, 01:54 AM
I used Norms insert kit with ARP studs. No issues and they work fine. I think they would work even with some bad porosity in the holes. There is a good quantity of aluminum that gets drilled out. The inserts are beefy and grip extremely well.

However, it would be easy to screw up on the drilling if your not careful. In fact, its better to predrill with Norms inserts and then use his drilling tool procedure.

If I were to do it a second time, I'd use the studs kit that Northstar Performance is promoting. The reason why is that it comes with a better tool set to drill the holes square and eliminates extra parts (inserts) and simplifies the process. I like the one piece idea.

97EldoCoupe
02-04-09, 02:10 AM
I'll have to update the photos on my site. The drill and tapping fixture is now all in one, 1.25" deep precision machined drill and tap bushings welded solid into a 3/8" thick CNC plasma cut plate. This simplifies the process even more and is very accurate. The fixture is bolted to a jig when it's welded so that it remains flat and square.

The box containing the drill/tap fixture, studs, hardware, everything together; weighs 14 lbs. It's solid. I'll do what I can to update the site in the next few days. The kits for the newer style Northstar (2000+) will be in stock in about two weeks.

jeffrsmith
02-04-09, 11:19 PM
I won't knock Norm's - that is what I used and am happy with the results. But as I have said in previous posts 97 Eldo's kit was not available when I did HGs. If it had been I would have probably used it instead.

Jake - When installed properly how deep do your studs go into the block?

97EldoCoupe
02-05-09, 12:55 PM
The studs have 2 inches of grip in the block and since 1/16th of an inch is left at the top, they should be down about 2 1/16" from the block surface.

mgturbo1
02-06-09, 06:53 PM
Ordered the stud kit from Jake. I will post after the job is done.
I am also thinking about a ZEX wet nitrous 75 shot. I already have this it is kit number 82023.

[NortHStaR]
02-11-09, 04:30 AM
That stud kit is sexy :worship:


I'd like to hear some feedback from anyone, if anyone on here has used them yet.


I will tell you anything you wanna know... Post some questions, or PM them to me, whatever you want...

97EldoCoupe
02-11-09, 01:01 PM
To any and all people who ordered the stud kit, the studs have all come in and are being packaged now. There are kits available now for 2000-2005 Northstars as well, SG500 series. All studs are quality inspected twice- once by the machine shop and again by my team.

I'll be keeping more and more supplies in stock from now on to avoid any delay in getting the stud kits.

Thanks
-Jake

Hogg
02-11-09, 01:39 PM
97EldoCoupe's SureGrip stud kit has seen repeated 0-220kph(0-137mph) WOT passes in my 98 STS.

It has not overheated once, and is running very strong.

I recommend Jakes(Northstar performance) services and supplies.

peace
Hog

rzacc
04-04-11, 01:53 PM
Gentlemen: I am being forced into this situation with my 97 Eldorado, 64k miles. I see that these posts are a few years old...what has transpired since then? What is the best way to go with the cyl head repairs? Does anyone know of a shop in colorado that does these? THanks in advance.
Ron Z
Lk George, Colorado

rzacc
04-04-11, 02:02 PM
Howdy Jake. I've been searching the web tyring to figure out the best way to go with my 97 Eldorado.... Do you have a web site? Where are you located? Do you know of a shop in Colorado that has done these, and is familiar with them? Any suggestions would be gratly appreciated.
Thanks
Ron Z

vincentm
04-04-11, 02:25 PM
Howdy Jake. I've been searching the web tyring to figure out the best way to go with my 97 Eldorado.... Do you have a web site? Where are you located? Do you know of a shop in Colorado that has done these, and is familiar with them? Any suggestions would be gratly appreciated.
Thanks
Ron Z

Studs are thee best way to go:

http://www.northstarperformance.com/sgstuds.php

97EldoCoupe
04-04-11, 09:33 PM
Ron I apologize for my delays in response. The stud kits are in stock as of now but I am starting to lose my patience with my suppliers. Too expensive, quality not to my standards (some studs had to be sent back to them for refund & recycle) and too many time delays.

I just picked up some very nice thread rolling die heads this afternoon that will work in my lathe so I can roll threads in house. This way we can be in charge of quality control from the selection of the steel to the final packaging. The only outsourced process will be heat treating from 04/15/11 and onward.

Check this out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt8VfgfWa54

I have 5 of these exact thread rolling heads now and a six tool post turret lathe. Until I get a machining center or screw machine, some things will still be manual but quality will go up I promise that.

It's a nightmare dealing with suppliers who cannot keep up to demands and do not check thread quality often enough. This way all issues will be solved once and for good.

97EldoCoupe
04-04-11, 09:44 PM
Ronz - I do not have anyone in Colorado at all right now, but I will help if I can, and I deal with any shop you can find and introduce them to the stud kit and how easy (allbeit time consuming) it is to install.

I can't wait to start cranking these studs out in the shop again. I have a dedicated person (my father who was a machinist/maintenance mechanic for many years) to run the lathe and threading equipment full time. His health isn't the best but I feel it is something he could do and he says he'd love to!

Time to get cracking and get everything working smoothly once again as it used to. Thank you to all who have had patience with me. Almost through the last bit of the rough waters now.

JoeTahoe
04-04-11, 10:22 PM
that machine looks AWSOME!!!!

rzacc
04-04-11, 11:56 PM
Thank you. I do have a gent locally who has a shop- and bilds race motors, etc... I will get him in touch with you.
Thanks
Ron Z

97EldoCoupe
04-05-11, 01:44 AM
Thank you Ron, I look forward to hearing from you and your mechanic! I'll help in any way I can.

Joe - I just tested one of these rolling heads in the old Atlas lathe that I designed the studs on. Effortless, perfect rolled threads. Oh my suppliers are not going to like to hear that I got ahold of equipment like this. Allbeit I bought these 5 heads used, they are in perfect shape and I did not have to pay the $3,300 price tag per head. This is $15,000 worth of tooling but nobody would ever believe the price I picked them up for. Time to make better products, have more stock on hand, and pay off some debt so I can continue on with the expansion plans. I don't like having supplier debt over my head for products I am not happy with.

Sometimes if you want things done right you have to do it yourself. I just never had the funds to invest in the machinery to mass produce the studs. This will be a big leap forward.

ThumperPup
04-05-11, 10:19 AM
wow that machine works awesome so fast and wow great find at a great price jake

jimsbox
04-05-11, 11:48 PM
I must be missing something, no link or image in Jake's post about his new tools.

97EldoCoupe
04-06-11, 11:23 AM
^^^ The video above. That's not my video but the tooling is the same as what I just bought.

rzacc
04-14-11, 11:42 PM
Jake- I need to get this thing scheduled with the garage, if I can. Can I order the studs now? I've left a mesage on your voice mail, with no reponse - Not sure the system is working. how do I call you direct, if that's the best way. Or, are you not set up yet to sell them, with the new machinery and all.
Thanks much!
Ron Z

97EldoCoupe
04-15-11, 11:46 AM
Hello Ron, sorry for not responding to your messages please see my new post in the Northstar Performance and Tech section in about 10 minutes it will be up there.

rzacc
06-29-11, 11:52 PM
OK, it's time to give a report. I bought my cad. Eldorado, drove it about 200 miles, and the dreaded event happened! So, I ordered the stud kit from Jake. Now for the results. I got the kit [thank you Jake!] and had the work done locally here in Colorado by Steve Mills Racing, Colo Springs, Colorado. The car is running GREAT! Steve said the studs are hell for stout, and should be a permanent fix. I must admit that I am very cautious of the temp gauge, but I'll settle down soon. Jake, I cant tell you how much I appreciate everything. You were so busy you could not stop, but I got the studs and they were 100%! If you are thnking about having this done, you can count on Jake and his word! Both are gold. I would be tickled to talk with anyone who has any questions for me about this process. This 'AD" is unsolicited and I have not ties with Jake, other than our contact in this matter. My phone is: 719 838 1441, and I am located in Lake George, Colorado. Once again, Jake THANK YOU!
Ron Zaccagnini

Davidis33
07-07-11, 02:47 PM
I would like to know if the stud kit drill can take out the serts that have been installed in an engine or do the serts have to be removed first and then drill? If they need to be removed first what is the method for getting them out?

97EldoCoupe
07-07-11, 04:51 PM
Time serts whether the first or second repair, the stud kit will take care of it. You will only need to drill part way into the sert, no problem for the drill bits that come with the kits.

And thank you so much Ron, things are starting to get back to normal around the shop. Starting to. Turns out I may need a bit more machinery for the stud process to speed things up but it's working out so far.

lynbr
03-14-12, 06:35 PM
Hello,
im trying to buy the Suregrip SG102 Stud kit from northstarperformance.com but i cant seem to get ahold of them, ive called them, attempted to email them and no reply.
does any one know any other way i can contact them?

Faded Crest
03-14-12, 08:25 PM
I'd go with Norm's inserts with ARP studs. I am about to start the same job myself and that is my plan. I tried to order a stud kit from Jake but got no response. Don't know what the story is (and no offense to Jake) but I don't have time for that. Norm is very professional, is on top of things, and he is available by phone or email and replies very promptly.

pcmcalibrators
03-17-12, 09:52 PM
Use Norm's inserts. They are placed in the proper place in the block. You never want to put the treads up by the deck surface.

Norm has corrected a few small issues with his fixture

The last thing is I very very strongly suggest using the OE bolts -- You have about a 4" thick piece of aluminum or so. If the car starts out at say -20 and warms all the way up to say 230 in 1 heat cycle the head will grow say .25mm to .5mm and with harden steel bolts something has to give.
Think about it grade 8 bolts trying to strech say .25mm on a 100 C heat cycle. Something will give and I would put money on the block. I would say the threads will break down. The factory bolts strech to keep the proper torque on the head gasket at all times. Another reason for the OE bolts over Studs is that if you had studs and the head grows and the compression ring in the head gasket gets squished even thinner, then what would happen with the engine is cold the next time? I think you would have a leaky head gasket correct?

----------

I have several sets of heads. One set is brand new. I own a heated aquatic parts washer (the spray cabinet type). I could measure the thickness of a head at say our nice warm temp of 70 and then put the head in the parts washer for 20 minutes. Then remeasure it after it has been spinning around for the 20 minutes at 230 if anyone would like me to

Faded Crest
03-18-12, 12:00 AM
So AJ, just to clarify, when you say use OE bolts, where should I get them from?

00 Deville
03-18-12, 12:13 AM
The OEM Headgasket kit comes with the OE head bolts. Chris can get you the kit.

pcmcalibrators
03-18-12, 07:42 PM
The OEM Headgasket kit comes with the OE head bolts. Chris can get you the kit.

Thats what I would say to do. I recomend purchasing from a sponsor and Chris is a great guy

Faded Crest
03-19-12, 03:12 AM
Thats what I would say to do. I recomend purchasing from a sponsor and Chris is a great guy

Sounds like a winner. Thanks!

dwillv
03-19-12, 11:26 PM
Where do i get these norm certs and studs. I've piad this guy jake 14 weeks ago and nothing i,ve called visa card services to try to get my money.im sick of this car being down taking up space n my garage. I need to finish this car i have alot of other things i need to do northstar is very unreliable. So any body send me some info on these norm certs and arp studs would be greatly appreciated

vincentm
03-20-12, 12:37 AM
Where do i get these norm certs and studs. I've piad this guy jake 14 weeks ago and nothing i,ve called visa card services to try to get my money.im sick of this car being down taking up space n my garage. I need to finish this car i have alot of other things i need to do northstar is very unreliable. So any body send me some info on these norm certs and arp studs would be greatly appreciated

Google it, and no the Northstar isn't unreliable, only thing unreliable is your constant trolling..

pcmcalibrators
03-20-12, 07:01 PM
Norm isn't a sponsor on this forum, so I don't want to push the issue. His product is NS300L you can search it out

tateos
03-22-12, 08:31 PM
I have a Norm's kit from a few years ago that I used once - it's all there, except for the inserts, which you can get separately from Norm...and I think elsewhere too. I seem to remember I paid $350 - would let it go for $50 plus shipping, let me know if interested.

PS it worked great - the car is still on the road years later - the stepson drives it now.

Richard Moore

Faded Crest
03-22-12, 08:41 PM
Richard, I'll take it! I'll send you a PM.

lynbr
03-23-12, 09:51 PM
how do i get norms inserts?
and what is the difference between norms and jakes??

Faded Crest
03-23-12, 09:59 PM
Norm's are threaded inserts that go into the block that original style head bolts screw into... Jake's design are studs tat you put into the block and you use nuts to fasten the heads down.

lynbr
03-23-12, 10:26 PM
so whose are better? and whose are more difficult to install?

eyewonder
03-23-12, 11:24 PM
Who's package is more difficult to install?

I just finished drilling & taping my block for Norm's inserts, but have never done Jake's. I have read Jake's procedure posted on his web site, and seen pictures. Both do utilize the same general procedure: use a jig fixture (centered over the old hole) to drill out the old threads in preparation for taping for inserts/studs. After each hole is drilled, a bushing for the tap is installed in the jig, and the hole is taped, by hand. You do this for all 20 bolt holes. The procedure for Norm's then calls for applying lock-tite to the insert & threads in the block, and inserting to a specific depth. Jake has a procedure that is specific to the dimensions of his studs.

I elected to go with Norm's inserts - because I could get them! I also chose to go with ARP studs in Norm's inserts. If you do that, let him know, as there is a slight difference in inserts when using new GM head bolts, or the ARP studs. The combo of Norm's inserts & ARP studs ended up being approximately $100 more that Jake's package.

Having done only 1 of the two procedures, but read the other, it seems that the actual work for either would be the same.

Information on Norm is at: www.HuhnSolutions.com . The studs are ARP part # 141-4204 (for Dodge SRT4 & PT Cruiser), and you will need two of the stud packages.

Cheers,
Steve

Ranger
03-23-12, 11:35 PM
so whos are better? and whos are more difficult to install?
6 of one, half dozen of the other. As mentioned, installation is about the same.

angeno
06-13-13, 03:28 PM
Wonder if anyone in the forum might know of a service provider in the Phoenix, AZ area who is competent and experienced in performing the Sure Grip stud kit restoration.

Submariner409
06-13-13, 04:05 PM
Call or e-mail Jake. www.northstarperformance.com

04GrandAmGT
06-20-13, 12:03 PM
Evrett Here, i will look into our files and see if i am able to locate a shop approved by us.